Copyright P J Marshall

Portsmouth Corporation
1939
Leyland Cheetah LZ4
Wadham B32R

Portsmouth Corporations fleet number 46 was the last of a batch of 6 Leyland LZ4 Cheetahs, 41-46 (BTP 941-946), with locally-built Wadham bodywork, new in 1939. 41 and 42 were withdrawn in 1941, after suffering war damage. This view of 46 at Eastney Depot was taken about 1954 when the remaining four of them were withdrawn from service and were awaiting disposal. Note the sad appearance, bald front tyres and single wheels only on the rear! Although I only holidayed in Portsmouth and Southsea from 1949-1956, I never recall ever seeing these buses in service.
Note the bus is surrounded by some of the nine 1944 Duple-bodied utility Daimler CWA6’s of which virtually no photos seem to exist. In 1959, the chassis were thoroughly overhauled and they were despatched to be re-fitted with Crossley bodies, some of the last Crossley bodies built, only to be scrapped in 1965! With only nine pre-selective gear change vehicles in the fleet, they were greatly abused, with inexperienced drivers using the gear change pedal as a clutch pedal, with lots of juddering. As a visiting Londoner, living in the Daimlerland Merton/Sutton area, it made me cringe!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

———

The Cheetahs were bought for the Southsea Sea Front Service, but of course this ceased in September 1939. The bodies had sunshine roofs and a total of six destination screens to inform the tourists of the attractions on the route. The bodies were reportedly heavy for the lightweight chassis, which was fine for a ride down the promenade, but a problem on normal services.After the war they were used on peak time specials when the fleet was understrength, but very little else. Interestingly there is a record of No.43 running on mileage equalisation duties on Southdown Service 138 from Fareham to Cosham over Portsdown Hill. That would have tested its Leyland 4.7 litre engine.

Pat Jennings

———

It’s true the bus behind is one of the CWA6/Duples, as all nine were withdrawn in 1954 to go to Crossley for new bodies, being returned in 1955. Thus they did 11 years with original, and 11 years as rebodied, being withdrawn in 1965/66. But those at the side of the Cheetah are Craven-bodied TD4s of the 131-160 batch. These would be either early withdrawals, or set aside for a work-shop rebuild. CPPTD carried out a lot of rebuilding work on the Cravens bodied TD4s and the trolleybuses from c. 1949-1957/58, although not every member of these batches received such work.

Michael Hampton

———

I agree with ‘Michael Hampton’ with regards to the re-bodying of the ‘Daimler CWA6’. A rather elderly Bus Book I have from 1963 states that they were re-bodied in 1955 by Crossley.
I think it would have been a lot to ask, that a Double Deck ‘Utility’ body last fifteen years, (unless heavily rebuilt), with the dreadful quality Wartime materials allowed by the ‘Ministry of Supplies’ for Bus Bodies. Even the paint allowed was little better than ‘coloured water’!!
Credit must be give to ‘C.P.P.T.D’ for managing to keep the Utility bodies in service for eleven years. Before the eventual & inevitable – re-bodying process.

John

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Does anyone have a photo of the CWA6’s as re-bodied? I can’t think of any Crossley bodied Daimlers (with exposed radiators that is).

Chris Barker

———

Oldham had fifteen Crossley-bodied CVD6 (322-336) and Manchester had fifty CVG5 with their characteristic body (4000-4049). Also Lancaster had a solitary (I think) CWG5 rebodied by Crossley.
However, it is possible you are thinking of the later Park Royal-designed Crossley body and I have to say I can’t think of any other examples.

David Beilby

———

No, actually I was thinking of the earlier type of Crossley body of the style with the stepped rear windows, which may be called ‘true’ Crossley bodies. The Portsmouth fleet list on Classic Bus Links states that they were re-bodied in 1959, very late for a wartime chassis to be treated, I thought that T Burrows ex London Daimlers were the last to receive new bodies in 1957. Anyone know which date is correct? If it was 1959 as stated by Chris Hebbron above, they would of course have had the Park Royal style of body, still worth seeing with the exposed radiator and strange if they only lasted six years as such.

Chris Barker

———

Chris Barker – I will post a photo of a re-bodied Daimler shortly. They were pleasant enough, but nothing like any other Crossley bodies I’ve seen. What I’m actually after is a photo of one of them BEFORE they were re-bodied! Such photos are be very rare. Any holders of one out there?

Chris Hebbron

———

The date of 1959 cannot be correct for the rebodying as the Crossley factory had been closed over a year by then. In fact they entered service in September and October 1955.
It turns out there were not many batches of Daimlers bodied postwar by Crossley. In addition to those I listed the remaining ones were the nine Portsmouth examples, 250 for Birmingham (2776-2900 and 3103 to 3227) and 35 for Aberdeen (175-204 and 210-214).

David Beilby

———

Thank you, David, for clarifying the revised date to 1955. I, too, took the Classic Bus Link date of 1959.
I notice that Birmingham’s Daimler CVG6 3225 survives and the Crossley bodywork gives only the merest nod to their standard Corporation design!

Chris Hebbron

———

Chris Hebbron has actually sent me a shot of a Portsmouth Crossley rebodied exposed radiator Daimler CWA6 it will be posted in its own right Wednesday 19th January.

Peter

——— Top of this posting ———

Copyright Ian Wild

Hargreaves of Bolton
Foden PVSC6
19??
Whitson RC35C

This great shot was taken at the Botanical Gardens Rhyl in August 1963 and at the time the above vehicle was owned by the Foden Sports and Social Club but it was delivered new to Hargreaves of Bolton. Bodywise is it called an Observation Coach or an Half-deck Coach? I can understand why it ended up with a sports a social club I should imagine that the large luggage locker came in handy for carrying all that equipment. Another question regarding this type of body I have is, were they limited to double decker regulations of length and weight for example or were the single decker lengths and weights allowed?
The PVSC6 had the Gardner 6LW 8·4 litre six cylinder diesel engine there was the option of the Gardner 5LW 7·0 litre five cylinder diesel engine in which case it was designated the PVSC5. In 1949 the Foden FE6 4·0 litre two stroke diesel engine was available which was designated the PVFE6 but only 52 PVFE6s were built as the series was superseded by the rear engined PVR in 1950.

Photograph contributed by Ian Wild

I can’t answer any of the technical questions about this coach, but I always remember these because Dinky Toys made one in the late 1950s and I had one; but to this day I’ve never seen an example of the real thing. There’s an example of the Dinky version here.

KC

Yes, KC – I’d forgotten about these. I used to have one. Weren’t they Maudsleys? It would be interesting to know why Dinky should choose such an unusual design of body and comparatively rare chassis for their model, especially when they were soon to become obsolete in style.

Paul Haywood

Didn’t Dinky do one in BOAC livery? I seem to remember the full-sized versions plying between Heathrow and the BOAC city terminal somewhere near Gloucester Road station – in the days before Heathrow Express, or even the extension of the Piccadilly Line beyond Hounslow West.

Stephen Ford

A couple of model makers made versions of airline-related coaches.
Dinky did this.
Matchbox did this.

KC

Its an observation coach, and Whitson built them on Maudslay, Leyland, AEC, and Foden chassis between 1949 and 1952. A half-deck coach is a different beast altogether using the patented "Crellin-Duplex" design where upper and lower deck seating was arranged to cram as many people in as possible using interlocking "railway compartment" style seating. The end result looked more like a two-level horsebox than a PSV! In prewar years Duple built a few observation coaches (I seem to remember one for an operator in South Wales) but in the post-war period Whitson had a virtual monopoly. The only other post-war example which springs to mind is the Mulliner bodied Morris-Commercial built for the Morris Works Band. This is preserved at the Oxford Bus Museum, but sadly none of the magnificent Whitson vehicles has survived.
The most famous Whitson observation coaches were the Fodens used by Salopia, but Dinky Toys chose to use a Maudslay supplied (in real life) to Embankment of Plymouth as the prototype for their scale model.
The airport coaches you mention were (in a sense) observation coaches, and share the same PSV Circle body prefix (RC) but all of those used by BEA in London (bodywork by Park Royal) and by MCTD in Manchester (bodied by Burlingham and Bond) had a continuous roofline rather than the "stepped" arrangement of a true observation coach, Liverpool Corporation converted a few (previously conventional) single-deckers to this "stepped roof" format in the late 1950s for their own airport service. The vehicles which resulted were not an aesthetic triumph!

Neville Mercer

07/02/11 – 06:04

As has already been pointed out, there was a world of difference between the Observation Coach style and that of the Half-Decker. Both were built to the (then) size limits for single deckers, rather than being restricted to the double decker dimensions. This applied regardless of whether they were mounted on front-engined chassis or rear-engined/underfloor-engined chassis. EWH 195 was one of a pair supplied to Hargreaves of Bolton, the other one being EBN 898. Both were supplied as PVSC6 chassis (Gardner 6LW), but after Fodens acquired EWH 195 they fitted a Foden two-stroke engine, effectively converting it to PVFE6 specification. Incidentally, you can tell the difference between front engined Gardner powered and Foden powered PSVs by the position of the starting handle hole. In the case of the Gardner engine the hole is dead centre, whereas it is slightly offset to the offside when a Foden engine was fitted.

Peter Tulloch

14/04/11 – 05:00

I should imagine this was carrying the Foden band who performed all over the country, they had several Fodens over the years, some had a bandmaster mascot on the rad cap, a uniformed conductor (the musical type) waving a baton.

Bryan Yates

05/10/11 – 17:28

I too had the Dinky model but I also remember the actual bus around North Wales when I was a small boy in the late 1950’s-early 1960’s. I lived in Broughton and we always holidayed further up the coast so saw this bus quite regularly. I also liked the cream-liveried Crosville buses which seemed more exotic than the all green or green and cream Chester buses.
Happy days!

Paul Eaton-Jones

25/10/11 – 07:19

I agree with Bryan Yates’ assumption that this coach was carrying the Fodens Brass Band. My father was a Machine Shop Foreman until his death in 1964, and I can remember seeing the bus now and then around the Elworth works – if memory serves me well it was grey and blue, and sounded as though it had the 2-stroke engine. No doubt the extra storage was useful for the band instruments. On another note, I saw a red half-cab Foden coach at Astle Park steam rally in August – still in the Coppenhalls (Sandbach) coach firm’s livery. Lovely memories!

Malcolm Riley

27/07/12 – 14:50

Reference to Malcolm’s comments about the blue and grey coach for the Foden Works Band….
I was sent a photo a couple of days ago from a friend in the UK who saw what is probably this gorgeous looking old lady just last week at a rally in Newbury….If I knew how to load photos on to this site I’d do it, but maybe a quick Google would stir the memory cells into action, and might also provide more information about its current owners’ show schedule and dates….

Stuart C

27/07/12 – 15:51

Ah….An hour later and I would be kicking myself unmercifully if the old limbs could bend that far….
The old lady I was going on about is not only already well known on here…. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/  
But ever a star, she even has her own page on Wikipedia…. //de.wikipedia.org/  
I’m sure that it’s just an age thing on my part, but what an absolutely wonderful example of what a British coach was meant to look like….

Stuart C

28/07/12 – 08:40

She’s a very attractive vehicle and the colour scheme certainly enhances her looks, too, Stuart.

Chris Hebbron

14/09/12 – 06:57

Beautiful Vehicle, Astons Coaches Marton operated HUJ 997 Foden PVFR Observation Coach Whitson. They also operated a Foden Crellin Duplex mentioned above KWT 976 with a Lincs Trailer Body as well as two other Crellin Duplex with Mann Egerton. Various other Fodens were operated including well known NBH 950 and JWY 999

David Aston

13/05/13 – 15:25

How many Whitson Observation Coaches were made.

David Aston

02/02/15 – 07:14

I’ve just been doing some research on Whitson’s observation coaches and the answer to "how many were built" seems to be 32 or 33. The biggest customer was the US Air Force which took either nine or ten (depending on which source you believe!) on 30 ft long Crossley SD42/9 chassis. These received the USAF serial numbers N967-976 (or N969-977 in one version, hence the discrepancy in total build numbers). They carried pseudo-Foden radiator grilles at the request of the customer and were delivered in 1951 for use on personnel transfers and by assorted USAF military bands. They appear to have been withdrawn in 1959 and at least one of them (N975) was subsequently sold to a civil operator (Peters of Llanarmon) as TCA 309. It was scrapped in 1962. Next came Salopia Saloon Coaches of Whitchurch and Embankment of Plymouth with five each. Salopia’s were all on Foden chassis, one of the shorter version on PVSC6 chassis (GAW 86), a 30ft long PVFE6 (GUJ 243) and three of the 30 ft version on rear-engined PVRF6s (HUJ 996/7 and JAW 334). Embankment took two on Maudslay Marathon IIIs (EJY 123/4), two on AEC Regal IIIs (FDR 52/3) and one on a Foden PVSC6 (GCO 946).
Four operators had two each. Hargreaves of Bolton took EBN 898 and EWH 195 on Foden PVSC6 chassis, HS Knight of Northampton received BNH 301 (Maudslay Marathon III) and BNH 302 (AEC Regal III), AE Marsh T/A Black and White of Harvington (Worcs) had Marathon IIIs HNP 875 and HUY 204), and ET Straw of Leicester bought Regal III GBC 893 and Regal IV HBC 603.
WEMS of Weston-super-Mare received Marathon III DFR 395. This vehicle was apparently the prototype – it had a slightly higher roof-line on the raised section – and had been an exhibit at the Earls Court Show in Batty Holt livery which might account for its Blackpool registration as they had a subsidiary there. However, it never entered service with the Lancashire firm and stayed with WEMS until 1960.
Other one-off customers were Cowell Bros of Sunderland (Regal III AGR 975), Doug Jones Coaches of Newchurch (Hants) who took Royal Tiger JOT 616 – the only Leyland example, Netherfield of Nottingham (Regal IV NAL 393), and Stanton Bros of Horseley Heath (Staffs) with Marathon III RRF 328.
Second-hand operators of observation coaches (apart from the previously mentioned Peters of Llanarmon) included Cooper of Gilesgate (Durham) who took two former Salopia PVRF6s, Elms Coaches of Kenton (London) who bought Embankment’s Foden GCO 946, and Ubique (also in the London area) who bought RRF 328.
Can anyone tell me of any I’ve missed? Past experience would suggest that there might be others lurking where I’ve failed to notice them!
The body came in two basic versions. The shorter variety can be recognised by having two full window bays on the sides of the raised section, while the 30 ft version has three. Both types could be adapted to suit any engine position (front/underfloor/rear).
In closing, can anybody tell me the liveries used by HS Knight of Northampton (taken over by York’s in 1960) or Stanton of Horseley Heath (who disappeared in 1956)? I have black and white shots of these operators’ vehicles and would like to get an idea of what they looked like in technicolour!

Neville Mercer

03/05/16 – 07:03

Whitson Observation Coaches
Having more or less concluded the History of Astons Coaches now delving deeply into the history of some of the vehicles they ran Have started on
Leyland Panda
Rutland Clipper
Crellin Duplex
Today I start on Whitson Observation Coaches so any points of reference or articles on these much appreciated Astons had HUJ 997 Foden

David Aston

04/05/16 – 14:56

GAW 86 One of the Salopia Fodens was converted to a Lorry are there any photos around?
HUY 204 It is well documented that the Foden won Concourse prizes, but why did HUY 204 Maudslay Marathon have a similar Concourse Badge on it this is at the Wythan Bus Museum

David Aston

19/05/16 – 06:15

I understand that there was possibly another one but records are unclear OFR 922 any one know anything about this one.
USAF Crossley I am led to believe N974 was registered as 8065 KD went to a Liverpool School. N976 was registered as 464 GBM went to Creed,Sandy

David Aston

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

14/05/20 – 06:48

Black and White of Tipton (Stanton Bros?) also had at lest one.

Bill Parker

19/05/20 – 06:20

BLOTW reveals that Stanton had in fact two. RRF 328, a Maudslay Marathon III, has already been mentioned by Neville Mercer above, but there was also ORF 922, a Tilling Stevens K6LA7, no less. This is probably the ‘OFR 922’ that David Aston was enquiring about.
And I think Bill’s question probably answers Neville’s earlier question about Stantons’ livery!

Peter Williamson

20/05/20 – 07:16

Although it is correct that BLOTW lists ORF 922 as having an observation body, photographic evidence puts this in doubt. This photograph includes what is suggested as being that Tilling Stevens, which has a standard half cab body. Either the coach in the photograph is not ORF 922, or it was subsequently rebodied, which seems unlikely – https://flic.kr/p/or9CVv 

David Williamson

Copyright Colin Martin

Copyright Davis Simpson Collection

Cheltenham District
1934
AEC Regent I
Weymann H30/24R

When my photos of the Cheltenham & District Albion Venturer
CX19 No. 72, were published they attracted a comment from Ian Thompson which read as follows-
"Three of the civilised and handsome Weymann-bodied 56-seat AEC Regents, mentioned by Chris, went in 1947 to fellow Red & White company Venture of Basingstoke, passing in 1951 to Wilts & Dorset. They were DG 9819 (No. 2) and DG 9820 (No. 3) of 1934, and BAD 30 (No. 10) of 1936. I remember seeing them (and secretly clambering aboard them in the AWRE Aldermaston bus park in 1955-56)."

Above are two photos of No.2, firstly looking immaculate with Cheltenham & District on 23rd May 1939 and then, about 1952, as ex-Venture 91, looking a little careworn on a filthy day, after Wilts & Dorset had taken over Venture.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

This later-life picture of DG 9818 brings back not only happy memories of AWRE Aldermaston bus park in the 50s, but also a question that has niggled me for years.
I was never content with bus-spotting from outside and was always curious about staircases and upstairs seating layout. I very distinctly recall a decker whose staircase started in the usual way–three or four steps rising towards the offside rear corner–but then instead of turning to rise forward, it made a 180-degree turn to debouch upstairs facing the nearside. The two forward-facing seats opposite the top step were only singles. I don’t remember any incursion downstairs: the whole staircase fitted into the platform-well. My admittedly fallible memory recalls this bus as one of the Cheltenham trio, but when I asked a retired Cheltenham driver about it sixteen years ago he could recall no such layout; nor could Colin Martin, author of Cheltenham’s Trams and Early Buses (Tempus 2001) and other authoritative bus books.
I’ve studied hard the photos of the DGs and BADs in Colin’s books and in Venture Limited by Birmingham and Pearce (1995) and in Wilts and Dorset, by Colin Morris and Andrew Waller (Hobnob 2006) and can see nothing that suggests what I recall. The DGs had only 24 seats downstairs and the BADs 26, but they all seated 30 upstairs, so there again there’s nothing to back me up. I begin to wonder whether the bus that I recall so clearly wasn’t an ex-Cheltenham after all, but then whose was it? All the E. Yorkshire Beverley Bar buses I’ve clambered around on seem to have had conventional stairs but with Roe-type square top steps. Can anyone disentangle me? Thanks!
And thanks, Chris H, for the pictures.

Ian Thompson

10/02/11 – 10:16

These three AECs which went to Venture as nos 85, 88 and 91 all had Gardner engines on arrival at Venture. The front bulkhead downstairs had a large rectangular panel (with round corners) protruding into the lower saloon above the flywheel cover – presumably because the Gardner 6LW took up more room than the standard AEC. They sounded rather like tractors compared with the usual Venture AECs. The staircases did indeed turn through 180 degrees and the top step protruded into the lower saloon above the off-side sideways seat next to the staircase: it was rather oval-shaped and a good example of the metalworker’s art as despite the many footsteps no dents or bumps were visible. It was just large enough for a footstep. There was no danger of a passenger bumping a head as upon standing up the body was clear of the intrusion.

Michael Peacock

24/03/12 – 09:25

As a kid I remember traveling to school on these old AEC Regents. One of the features of the Weymann coachwork was access to the destination blinds on the top deck by undoing two latches thus enabling one to alter the route number. As some of the stops were shared by more than one route such action caused some concern to passengers and did not last very long as astute conductors would remove us guilty or otherwise.

Deryck

06/12/12 – 16:54

Somehow I managed to miss Michael Peacock and Deryck’s comments on the Cheltenham Regents that ended their careers with Wilts and Dorset, and have only just read them! It’s a relief to know that my recollection of the odd staircase wasn’t mistaken after all. I think this arrangement must have been a Balfour Beatty speciality, as it’s shared by the 1949 Notts and Derby BUT/Weymann H32/26R trolleybus at the West of England collection at Winkleigh, Devon, which I saw only two months ago. Given the above-average upper deck seating capacity, the nearly-180-degree staircase was obviously space-thrifty. Belated thanks to Michael and Deryck for shedding more light on these fascinating vehicles.

Ian Thompson