Copyright Roger Cox

Bradford Corporation
1964
AEC Regent V 2D3RA
Metro Cammell H40/30F

A while ago there was a thread re Bradfords Regent Vs so I thought I would contribute one of my shots it is of 208 a 2D3RA type with clutch and four speed synchromesh gearbox, and MCW H40/30F bodywork. When I worked in the Traffic Office for Halifax Passenger Transport in the mid 1960s, I used to ride from time to time on Bradford buses between Queensbury and the city centre. The howl of the conventional transmission Regent V in the intermediate gears on hills was part of the soundtrack of life in that part of West Yorkshire in those days – Hebble and Halifax also had buses of this type. In theory, the blue/cream livery should have been quite attractive, but in practice Bradford’s buses always had a slightly disappointing appearance to me. It was often said back then that blue paint did not wear as well as red or green, and this seemed to be borne out by the matt finish that Bradford’s buses seemed to acquire very quickly. Perhaps the Corporation’s bus washing equipment had a deleterious effect upon the paintwork.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

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29/09/11 – 09:02

I was once with a company whose corporate colour was light blue. It was not a very stable colour & depended too for its appearance very much on what colour was underneath it.

Joe

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30/09/11 – 12:23

Bradford`s blue was always subject to quick fading, and the problem seemed to worsen when the Humpidge livery eliminated cream bands, grey roofs, and yellow lining. There was no finer sight than a newly repainted Bradford bus, but, alas, after a week, the same old look of faded gentility would appear!
Perhaps BCPT should have resisted the temptation of using the Southend blue which so inspired them in 1942 when 4 trolleybuses from that town appeared on loan. The original dark blue was quite sombre, but had a certain elegance which seemed to emphasise the no nonsense attitude of a busy industrial city.
I cannot imagine what the MkVs would have looked like though!

John Whitaker

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30/09/11 – 15:22

I think the overall effect would be akin to the Lytham & St Annes blue or perhaps Pontypridd UDC both of these used a dark blue as their main colour.

Chris Hough

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30/09/11 – 16:28

Hi Chris.
No, I knew the Lytham fleet well, Bradford`s pre war blue was VERY dark, almost like EYMS. Lytham blue was more a royal blue, whereas Bradford’s was classed as ultramarine. Check it out on preserved tram 104.

John Whitaker

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Just so happen to have a model AEC Regal in Bradfords old Livery.

Peter

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30/09/11 – 21:59

To change the subject from paint to move to that transmission howl. Being brought up in Rochdale in the 1950’s I was obviously a great admirer of AEC Regent V’s. In the early 1960’s I made a journey to Huddersfield to look at the trolleys and after taking the Hebble 28 to Halifax over Blackstone Edge I changed to a 43 for Huddersfield. It was a Halifax LJX Regent V. I was absolutely distraught at the howling and whining sounds made by the bus especially on the long climb up to Ainley Top from Elland. Our Regent V’s in Rochdale never made sounds like that. Of course I found out later as my knowledge of bus engineering expanded that the Rochdale vehicles had fluid transmission, either pre-selectors (NDK batch) or Monocontrol on the later ODK, RDK and TDK registered vehicles. The NDK batch also had Gardner 6LW engines. I was never such a fan of the more common synchromesh Regent V’s after that experience.

Philip Halstead

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12/11/11 – 06:11

Ah! The Bradford Regent Vs. They appeared to fall into two distinct camps – people either loved them or loathed them, and I make no apologies for nailing my colours to the loved ’em mast every time! As a youngster I used to try and guess which batch an approaching Regent V was from, before the number plate became visible. If memory serves correctly, taking the first batch (the PKYs) as a yardstick, these had fixed glazing in the front upper deck windows with a ventilator in the roof dome above them. The UKYs were broadly similar but whereas the PKYs had a straight lower front edge to the front wings, the UKYs (and subsequent batches) had a somewhat racier rounded lower front edge to them. Then came the YAKs, similar to the UKYs, but with opening front ventilators in the front upper deck windows and no ventilator in the front dome. The most noticeable change came with the YKWs, as they were the first to sport St Helen’s-style destination displays showing ultimate, via and route number information boldly and clearly (a classic display if ever there was one). They also had single rather than two-piece windscreens, fuller roof domes and a subtly deeper area of cream above the lower deck windows and cab/canopy. They lacked front dome ventilators but retained the opening vents in the front upper deck windows. Then came the 2xxx KW batch, seemingly identical to the YKWs, but the eagle-eyed would spot that the roof dome ventilator was back! The final batch – the 6xxx KWs – were the ones that I had to admit defeat on as they looked every inch the same as the 2xxx’s. However, once aboard, you immediately knew which was which as the 6xxx buses had light blue internal window surrounds rather than the cream used hitherto. In later years the Transport Department converted the PKYs, UKYs and YAKs to the St Helen’s-style destination displays, but they were still readily identifiable as they retained the original smaller route number blinds and tracks. Later they also added roof dome ventilators to the YKWs too, bringing them into line with the two batches of KWs. Fond memories of buses with undeniable character.

Brendan Smith

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06/07/13 – 07:00

Has has been said many times the Bradford livery was superb when ex works. I can remember the FKY batch of Regent IIIs were always immaculate when returned from two year recertification. FKY 7, which was probably the last to gain a five year certificate, could always be easily identified at a distance by the creamy brown window pans caused by rust coming through, and the faded blue livery, until its later recertification, which transformed it from the ugly duckling to a magnificent machine in line with its sisters.

David Hudson

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06/07/13 – 09:18

I have always been quite distressed by the vicious condemnation from many quarters of the Bradford Mark Vs. The exaggerated accounts of rough and violent rides are wicked to hear, and any such discomfort must surely have arisen largely from careless or deliberate bad driving. I drove many Mark Vs in my time, both two pedal and live gearbox, and never had any trouble with them. I was even allowed, for a reason I can’t remember, to drive a full load of folks around the Sandtoft circuit in preserved M & D VKR 37 – at the time I’d obviously never seen that vehicle previously, nor had I driven any Mark V for many years, but it gave no problems at all. Possibly the mountainous roads in Bradford encouraged "forceful" driving but, if so, there’s no excuse for this. Certainly the superb pure howling of the Mark V manual transmission in the first three ratios was glorious to hear, as indeed was the "petrol engine" smooth quietness in top !! I’ll never forget the civilised magic of the Ledgard Roe sextet 1949 – 1954 U when they appeared in September 1957. Incredibly, despite the use of the green demonstrator 88 CMV, they were not expected by the staff in general – surely one of the best kept secrets ever, especially within a relatively small operator.

Chris Youhill

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07/07/13 – 07:36

Well said, Chris. Despite having the (slightly) suspect wet-liner AV590, Sheffield’s 2D3RA and 2D2RA Regent Vs gave full value and service lives in the mountains of Sheffield and the Peak District. […..and the "Pre-war Howl" of the 2D3RA was part of their (musical) attraction.]

David Oldfield

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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14/07/13 – 07:50

Chris, I heartily endorse your defence of the much maligned Bradford AEC Regent Vs. Having had the pleasure of riding on many of the ‘YKWs’ and ‘KWs’ over the years, I feel much of the ‘problem’ as you rightly say was down to very poor driving. Whether they had lower ratio rear axles to cope better with Bradford’s many hills I do not know, but this would give improved acceleration on the flat, such as the services along Manningham Lane to Saltaire, Bingley and Crossflatts. Also if the engines were fully rated, this combination would no doubt encourage ‘spirited’ performances from BCT’s small band of would-be rally drivers. Exhaust brakes were also fitted to the buses, giving increased deceleration on braking if needed, so in the hands of said rally drivers – well you can imagine passenger comments! (Not to mention those of the poor conductor saddled for a full shift).
Having also ridden on East Yorkshire Bridgemasters and Renowns, which shared many mechanical components with the Regent Vs, these did not appear to have the same afflictions. They generally seemed to be treated with much more respect by their drivers, and the ride was all the better for it. Another benefit of a more relaxed driving style with the AECs was that passengers were treated to the wonderful musical tones of the gearbox, as mentioned by Chris Y and David O, for that much longer!

Brendan Smith

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14/07/13 – 10:04

Thank you indeed Brendan and David for your supporting views, and I’m sure that if a survey had ever been carried out amongst thinking folks as to the popularity of the Mark Vs the "Ayes would have had it." We all have regrets on the lines of "Oh, if only I’d had my camera" and just such an occasion for me and a friend was when we foolishly omitted to take ours to Saltaire on the last evening of trolleybus operation. The trolleybuses had left that morning to take up service and were never to return to Saltaire Depot. In that quiet Saturday mid evening the front yard was full of new Mark V AEC Regents, and someone had taken the trouble to set all the route numbers to "O I L" – rather a nice touch really. So, to the lay passengers, its perhaps understandable to a degree that the complete difference in the nature of their future riding experience came as a culture shock, especially as I suppose only a minority were gifted as devotees of classical auto-mechanical music !!

Chris Youhill

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14/07/13 – 14:21

My first contribution to this site quite a while back now was in defence of the much maligned Bradford Mk.V’s – and Mk.V’s in general – and I remember being heartened by Chris Youhill’s brilliantly worded response, as I then realised I wasn’t the only person on the planet who appreciated their qualities and characteristics.
At the risk of covering old ground, Regent V’s were most certainly not Southall’s most durable and troublefree model, nor the most refined – that accolade in my opinion belongs with their 9.6 preselector Mk.III. I admit that Bristol, Guy and Daimler probably all turned out far more rugged, reliable, and economical products.
There were so many different variants on the Mk.V theme. Permutations of short ones, long ones, lightweight and heavyweight, AV470/590/690/691’s, ones with the old 9.6, synchromesh or Monocontrol, tin front or conventional – they were all fascinatingly different, with widely varying characters and levels of durability and performance.
Even apparently similar ones could perform quite differently. At Halifax we had sixteen of our ‘own’ and a small number of ex-Hebble ones. Though all were 30ft. AV590/Synchromesh types I believe ‘ours’ had in-line fuel pumps, whereas the Hebble ones had rotary pumps and performed quite differently – much better actually. Some could even be a bit dull – I always thought that Yorkshire Woollen’s Metro-Cammell-bodied ones were rather lacking in something.
Then in PTE days we received quite a few ex-Bradford ones either on loan or transferred. These were a revelation, infinitely better than any of ours, and from my own purely personal enthusiast/driver/non-engineering point of view were the most satisfyingly pleasurable buses that I have ever driven during my 40 year career.
Absolutely loved ’em !

John Stringer

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15/07/13 – 08:27

36 hours ago I was enjoying working on Leigh Renown 28.
A journey from West Yorkshire to the East Coast and back for tea! Fantastic gearbox music and a booming exhaust.
I am a Bradford lad and loved the Mark Vs.

Geoff S

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15/07/13 – 08:28

Just because one holds a less than rhapsodic view of a particular piece of machinery, that does not automatically brand one as an insensitive or clumsy driver. My driving experience of the Regent V was limited to the Halifax examples, and I make no apology for stating that I found them crude and unpleasant machines. On the plus side, they were quite lively, the steering was pleasantly light, and the all synchromesh gearbox was extremely easy to use. However, the clutch was excessively light and vague in operation, so that, unlike the much heavier but predictable Leyland clutch, one could never be exactly sure when transmission engagement would occur. Many drivers got round this by slipping the clutch in at (to my mind) excessive revs, which, in turn, gave rise to a juddery take off from rest, but I would endeavour to take greater care (yes, even though I was not the greatest fan of the Regent V). The ear splitting gearbox howl in the indirect ratios, which were perpetually required on the Halifax hills, plus the indescribable racket from the accelerator pedal as it rattled freely when released under braking or when descending hills, made the Regent V the noisiest bus, by a huge margin, that I have ever driven (though the Seddon Pennine IV is close behind). The accelerator pedal had an incredibly light return spring, so that holding the pedal at an intermediate position for driving at modest speeds left one with an aching ankle, and the air brakes had a totally non progressive feel to them. A gradual depression of the pedal produced no effect at all until suddenly over application came about. Easing off again then produced no result until, with a whoosh of escaping air, the brakes released entirely. This was a feature of AEC air brakes on other contemporary bus models, such as the Reliance. How Southall lost the knack of designing smooth progressive brakes after the excellent Regal III/Regent III, puzzles me to this day. John Stringer’s comment re in line v distributor fuel pumps is interesting, as it is generally held that the in line pump is more tolerant of variable fuel quality. I suspect the the distributor pumps on the Hebble buses were set rather more generously.
We all have our own favourites and bête noires, and such views should surely be respected. I certainly refute the implication that my opinion of the Regent V arises from a shortfall in competence.

Roger Cox

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15/07/13 – 10:25

I think the gentleman protesteth too much. I may have missed something, but I cannot recollect anyone accusing Roger of incompetence.

David Oldfield

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15/07/13 – 10:26

As far as I can see, nobody has implied that at all Roger.

John Stringer

Copyright Duncan Holden

Blackburn Corporation Transport
1948
Leyland Tiger PS1
Crossley B32F

Blackburn Corporation Transports roots go back to the first services in 1881, the trams, unusually, being wholly steam-hauled for the whole period, with corporation takeover and subsequent electrification in 1901.
Bus services started in 1929. Tramway closures started in 1935, but the system’s complete demise was delayed by the unpleasantness between 1939 and 1945; finally closing in 1949.
In March 1948, BCT took delivery of five single-deck Leyland PS1’s, with Crossley B32F bodies, the second half of an order placed in 1947. This second batch were numbered 6-10 (BCB 339-343). They were delivered with the typical Crossley body design of two shallower rear windows. At some stage, these four windows were altered to resemble the others. They also had painted radiators, later becoming chrome. Clayton Dewandre heaters were a fitment, and unusually, for a bus, the front entrance has a recessed sliding door. You can see the emergency exit in the rear of the bus.
The buses spent most of their lives on the so-called East/West route, merely bearing the words EAST or WEST on their blinds. Quaintly, the rear ‘blind’ was a very small window box low down on the rear nearside, with a flap hinged across the centre. The flap moved up or down to expose either ‘EAST’ or ‘WEST’, printed on short vehicle registration plates – crude, but effective!
The batch was finally withdrawn from service between 1964 and 1969, No. 7 being withdrawn on 28/2/1967. However, it remained in the fleet, eventually as a heritage vehicle, being transferred to the company’s coaching arm, Blackburn Coachways. It was very active in the preservation scene in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.
Some time after 1998, she was re-registered EAS 956. (The BCB 340 registration was transferred, firstly, to a Volvo B10M coach in the Blackburn Transport fleet, in 2002; then going onto East Lancs-bodied Dennis Trident double decker No.1, which carried the mark, until being sold to Blackpool in 2007).

Copyright Chris Hebbron

In 2004, the PS1 was sold and purchased by keen bus enthusiast, Merddyn Jones, of Jones International Coaches of Llandeilo, who mechanically restored it. My photo was taken in 2007, outside Jones’s garage. Imagine how surprised I was to find a Blackburn bus, perchance, in rural Wales!
In 2008, the bus was acquired by Silver Star Holidays, of Caernafon. It earns its keep, together with an impeccable 1950 Burlingham-bodied AEC Regal III (LPT 328) , on vintage coach tours/weddings etc. In a photo I’ve seen, dated last January, it was looking very smart, apparently having had a repaint.
A sister vehicle, No.8 (BCB 341) has also been preserved.
A keen Leyland aficionado, Merddyn now owns something bigger, an ex-Southdown ‘Queen Mary’.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (with thanks to Duncan Holden and Merddyn Jones).

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26/09/11 – 06:23

7 didn’t remain with Blackburn after withdrawal. It went into private preservation in the Manchester area. I recall it appearing nicely restored in the early eighties and it was still with an owner in Stockport at that time. Blackburn only bought it back later.
It is worth crediting Duncan Holden’s site as it is an excellent example of what can be done on one operator. If you like Blackburn’s fleet allow yourself plenty of time to look at it //www.olivegreenandivory.co.uk

David Beilby

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04/10/11 – 17:14

Thanks, David, for filling in a gap of which I wasn’t aware.

Chris Hebbron

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27/10/11 – 07:29

Thank you for the correction to the history of Blackburn 7 (BCB 340).
In 1968 – 7 was sold to a dealer along with most of the remaining batch and was expected to be scrapped, but she was sold to a youth band and toured Europe.
Laid up after 1973, I and three friends rescued and purchased 7 in 1976 at the eleventh hour for its scrap value, in a semi derelict, vandalised condition, from a Stockport group, with a ceased frost damaged engine and we spent several years rebuilding it to a very high standard. We rallied it extensively from 1977 to 1992 when we sold it back to Blackburn, who had hired it from us occasionally. Blackburn did nothing to it and sold it on to Jones. Its ivory/off white colour has been repainted in the wrong shade, and applied around the cab, which is incorrect. The green and lining out is as we applied it with varnish in 1985. It had had a full mechanical rebuild in the 1980’s including the engine. We were very fond of it and it is nice to see it still looking good and earning its keep, which is exactly how we wanted it to be. I still have most of its history and some other information. A lovely bus to own and drive!

Steve Heginbotham

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27/10/11 – 13:58

Thx for filling in some more detail. Your tale is so typical of the trials and tribulations which vehicles (and restorers) go through and the wonder is how some vehicles ever survive them! Have you been involved in any more restorations?

Chris Hebbron

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08/11/11 – 06:45

Yes, both me and my Brother-in-law where involved in the very early stages of the restoration of Manchester tram 765 when it was kept in Birchfields Road depot. I also did some dismantling work on a similar tram to Stockport 5 and the parts (to equip 5) were kept in our house for several years. I also restored cars, motorcycles, and 3 AFS vehicles. Alas I now only have two vintage motorcycles and devote my spare time to compiling books on transport. We went to Blackburn Transport in 1977 for a crash course in vehicle body restoration and professional painting skills,which is why 7 still looks so good. 8 layers of hand applied, top quality paint, perfectly matched and applied with brushes at £30 each in those days!!
We also considered buying sister bus number 8 when it was kept at Burtonwood Airfield, and then almost completely intact.

Steve Heginbotham

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09/11/11 – 06:15

Phew, Steve, someone should give you a medal for your efforts, although I know you’d argue it was a labour of love! It’s certainly a record to be proud of, anyway!

Chris Hebbron

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01/12/12 – 09:18

The Olive Green & Ivory website mentioned above has been having problems with images being freely filched and used on the web by others. It was taken down completely, but in response to many requests a small part of it has now been reinstated, with anti-theft watermarking.
Please help the webmaster by following the link to the site, looking at the quality of the few pics that have been reinstated, and leaving your (helpful and productive, please) comments. www.olivegreenandivory.co.uk

Tony

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07/02/13 – 14:27

This is a question for Steve Heginbotham, I’m trying to trace the sister bus BCB 341 – I am unable to contact ‘Queensbury Old Farts Club’ as their email won’t receive and they are the last know owners. Can you help? Or can anybody else help? Please??

Rachel

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07/02/13 – 16:48

Classic Bus website shows BCB 341 vehicle now owned by Mr Young in Faversham but that was in 2010
Blackburn 8, PS1 {472994} / Crossley B32F, 1948, BCB 341, North West Museum of Transport 2005. To Beeby, Huddersfield 10/06. Queensbury Old Farts Motor Club, Bradford 2007, but restoration stalled. Sold on eBay 10/09 to Young, Faversham. Major work underway 2010.

Ken Jones

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11/02/13 – 06:58

Thanks Ken – that’s as far as I got with her too – does anyone know who Mr Young is? or even better how to contact him? Many thanks.

Rachel

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25/11/15 – 07:14

Remember travelling on these as a kid, They were used to transport us from the Tech & Grammar School in the centre of town to the baths at Belper Street for swimming lessons as well as the regular East Park Drive and West Park Drive services which ran either side of the Corporation Park.

Bernie Dickinson

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06/06/16 – 06:40

Sadly, I have now found number 7 stored in the open, and out of use for at least three years in the corrosive sea air of the North Wales coast, after the owning company folded in 2013. Now in a semi derelict state, rotting away and requiring major work to put right, this previously immaculately restored, very well kept and much loved and rare bus has been very neglected and is likely doomed for scrap.

Steve Heginbotham

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16/09/19 – 06:22

I have purchased Blackburn Leyland PS1 number 7 for the second time and will restore her again. In a very poor state and requiring a total rebuild. I hope to have her back up to scratch by 2021.

Steve Heginbotham

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18/09/19 – 07:22

You’re a real stickler for punishment, Steve, but good luck with your task.
It seems so long that I saw her in Llandeilo, in 2007. Anyone know the situation with No.8?

Chris Hebbron

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23/09/19 – 07:10

Thanks for words of encouragement Chris.
Number 8 is still on DVLA records but it’s not been seen for decades.
Last noted in Faversham 2008.

Steve Heginbotham

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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20/12/20 – 06:48

Blackburn 7 is currently in my shed not owned by me but having just been lined out and emblems applied. Understand going back to earning it’s keep in 2021.

Roger Burdett

Copyright Roger Cox

Southern Motorways
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

Here is a picture of one of the ex LTE GS type Guy Specials operated by Basil Williams of Emsworth during the 1970s, who then traded as "Southern Motorways". In the week I "drove" a desk at London Country back then, and, to keep my hand in, I used to do a spot of driving for independents at weekends. One of these was North Downs Rural Transport, which, having taken over the business of A. T. Brady (T/A Brown Motor Services), was then based at Forest Green, Surrey. In March 1972, circumstances left North Downs with a vehicle shortage, and arrangements were made with Basil Williams to hire one of his GS buses. I travelled down to Emsworth on a Saturday with a colleague to collect the vehicle, and we were both less than impressed when the bus we were given, GS 43, MXX 343, was started up. The density of the exhaust smoke would have done credit to a Pre Dreadnought at Jutland, and, even allowing for the fact that the Perkins P6 always sounded like a bucket full of nails being shaken about, the racket from the engine was deafening. We expressed our disquietude to Mr Williams, and I remember his response to this day – "If anyone says that it’s knocking, then you can tell them that it’s just had its Annual". We set off back to Surrey in the thing, travelling hopefully rather than expecting to arrive, but our minimal optimism evaporated with each passing mile. The bus struggled painfully and overheated repeatedly up the merest of gradients, and it was on one of the recuperative rests to allow it to cool down that I took this picture. Such was the noise of the vehicle when in motion that even ancient rustics spotted walking far in front of us in the distance, whose hearing faculties must surely have diminished over the years, swung round in alarm on our approach. Eventually, after an interminable journey, we arrived back at Forest Green, and I thankfully left for my home at Farnborough. I subsequently learned that, when despatched on service on the following Monday, the GS failed totally less than a mile from the North Downs Depot. By this time, all patience had been lost, and Basil Williams was told in succinct terms to come and collect the vehicle
There is so much to tell about Mr Williams and his Hants and Sussex ventures, but I will leave that till later.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

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22/09/11 – 06:17

At least he provided a rather nice comprehensive destination blind!

Chris Barker

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22/09/11 – 14:02

Ref. the destination blind – yes, I’ve always thought that they seem very bespoke and comprehensive for a country independent. Did they get LT to make them as part of their purchase deal? Also, I’ve got a photo of a GS in Midhurst showing route 21. Did they have a large network or did they route share with Southdown/Aldershot & District?

Paul Haywood

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23/09/11 – 06:23

I very much doubt that LTE made up the blinds for the Basil Williams fleet. From its inception, relations between Hants and Sussex and the surrounding major operators – Southdown, Aldershot and Distriot and London Transport – were forever fraught with deep suspicion, and no route sharing would ever have been considered. It was not until the Fowler Act that liberalised Road Service Licensing that Basil Williams was really able to operate free of constant Traffic Court battles with his neighbours. This legislation was beneficial to the industry, which hitherto was fettered by the absurdity of proving need for a service. (The subsequent ridiculous Ridley deregulation Act of 1985 was devised purely to flog off NBC and local authority public transport operations as quickly as possible, and private interest was stimulated by tearing up entirely all the public service obligations placed upon an operator by earlier legislation. Nowadays, operators can run what they like, when they like, and charge what they like for it.)
Route 21 ran Midhurst-Heyshott-Ambersham- Selham-Graffham-Petworth, but it underwent several changes throughout its existence. The best book by far on the extremely complicated Hants and Sussex saga is the one by Alan Lambert, and it is worth trying to get a copy. I have seen copies advertised on Amazon and Ebay.

Above is a photo taken in the Emsworth depot on the same day that we collected GS 43. Unfortunately, the yard was deeply in shade, and I have had to "Photoshop" the picture rather heavily to make it usable. From the left may be seen GS 75 MXX 375, GS 22 MXX 322 and GS 43 MXX 343, plus another off camera to the right. It is interesting to note that 22 and 75 were withdrawn before 43, which lasted until 1974, which makes one wonder what state they were in.

Roger Cox

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23/09/11 – 17:37

Fascinating, Roger – many thanks. I will certainly try to get a copy of the Hants & Sussex book as they sound to have been a really maverick outfit. However, I’m still intrigued by the high route numbers. Did they really have up to 25 routes?

Paul Haywood

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24/09/11 – 07:20

Paul, over the entire lives of the Basil Williams/Hants and Sussex companies, the route numbers went up to the remarkable figure of 51, with some gaps in the sequence, but these were offset by some "A" and "B" suffixes. During WW2, in 1943, a certain Cecil Walling T/A Silver Queen Bus Service agreed to sell his business to Basil Williams. Mr Williams formed a new limited liability company called Silver Queen Motor Services Ltd. and applied, entirely reasonably, for the permit (Defence Permits replaced Road Service Licences during the war) to be transferred from Mr. Walling to his new company. Southdown objected to the transfer, and this objection was upheld, leaving Mr Williams with a new company without any business. The proposed purchase did not then proceed, and Mr Walling retained his permit until he sold out to Southdown at the end of that year. Basil Williams never forgot this episode, and in all his subsequent takeovers of other businesses he formed limited liability companies using the same company names and with the same directors, to whom all the RSLs were transferred without trouble, and then he replaced the old directors with himself and others within his empire. Thus grew the perplexing multiplicity of company names within the Hants and Sussex setup:
Hants and Sussex; Liss and District: Southsea Royal Blue; Empress Coaches Stockbridge; Triumph Coaches Southsea; Blakes Tours of Plymouth; Glider & Blue; Glider Coaches; B.S. Williams Ltd; White Heather Travel; Sunbeam Coaches Loxwood; F.H. Kilner; Southern Motorways.
Alan Lambert’s book unravels this labyrinthine tale in a masterly fashion, and is a masterpiece of its kind.

Roger Cox

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24/09/11 – 11:35

Wow! I’ve just found a copy on Amazon and bought it. Many thanks for lifting the lid sufficiently for me to delve further.

Paul Haywood

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25/09/11 – 07:14

Having read my copy of Alan Lambert’s ‘Hants & Dorset’ book again, I’m amazed at the bureaucracy involved with so many parties to do with route applications/transfers, increases/reductions in fares/service frequency, etc and how so much of it was tied up with petty squabbling and so little with giving good customer service. We may not be entirely happy with de-regulation, but it seems, in many ways, a better system.

Chris Hebbron

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25/09/11 – 20:39

That is absolutely right ChrisH, permission had to be sought for even the most insignificant alterations, such as to change the starting point of an excursion. All these applications were then published in ‘Notices and Proceedings’ issued by the Traffic Commissioners either weekly or fortnightly, I cannot remember which, to allow any possible objections. Excursions, Tours and Express services had to be licensed in each traffic area they traversed even if they were just passing through! Most of the larger companies had specially printed ‘Notice of Objection’ forms stating their reasons and typically these would be;
1) The application would abstract traffic from existing facilities provided by ourselves
2) The application would cause unnecessary and wasteful competition
3) The application is unnecessary and undesirable in the public interest
4) Generally as may be adduced from evidence given at any public hearing held in connection with the application.
Number 3 particularly, I think is quite unbelievable but it was common practice for the larger operators to see themselves as judge of what was best for the passenger and very often this amounted to preventing people from travelling! Even the railways could object and often this resulted in a limitation on the number of vehicles which could be operated, regardless of demand. In whose interest the Traffic Commissioners operated is a matter of debate but it was by no means necessarily the travelling public!

Chris Barker

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27/09/11 – 06:41

I see that three of this batch ended up in Travellers hands with predictable results..all destroyed! They are MXX 373,354 and 350. You can see pictures of their fading years here…. //www.travellerhomes.co.uk/?p=9231
From the comments above, maybe they were not missed!

Richard Leaman

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27/09/11 – 06:45

For about ten years, I handled almost all the Traffic Court work for London Country, which included acting as advocate for the company at Traffic Commissioners’ Hearings (colloquially known as Traffic Court). Many operators believed that legal representation was required to pursue a case before the Traffic Commissioners – surprisingly, even Geoffrey Hilditch seems to have held this misapprehension. I am not a lawyer, and the only occasions upon which legal representation was employed were joint applications or objections with other operators, and applications for fares increases (which consisted of putting forward loads of statistical and financial bumph proving a need for increased revenue). On all other applications/objections submitted by the company, I was the representative for the company, and usually found myself contesting with solicitors or barristers acting for opposing parties. I won far more cases than I lost, because the main factor was a knowledge of the bus industry and the relevant legislation (mainly the Road Traffic Act 1930, much of which still applied, and the Transport Act 1968). Lawyers, including QCs, didn’t have that knowledge, and their painful ignorance of the subject frequently became clear when arraigned before the Commissioner. Having said all this, I, too, believed that the legislation and procedure was absurdly outdated and loaded in favour of big operators. This was remedied by Norman Fowler’s Transport Act 1980 which deregulated coach services and changed the emphasis of Road Service Licensing in favour of applicants. This made the old practice of blocking competition by objection a thing of the past, but still laid public service obligations upon operators. This was assuredly in the interests of the public. Ridley’s 1985 Act was designed solely to destroy public ownership by privatising NBC and local authority undertakings, invariably at a fraction of the true value. Ridley’s knowledge of the industry could have been written on the back of a postage stamp, underneath the Lord’s Prayer, and he couldn’t have cared less. Total deregulation did not meet the needs of the travelling public, and left us with the overpriced monopolistic shambles that afflicts us today.

Roger Cox

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27/09/11 – 11:15

That’s telling it as it is, Roger – but I do agree.

David Oldfield

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11/05/13 – 08:59

I have a photo (provided by someone from Reading) of an open charabanc (possibly mid-late 1930s) with the words Silver Queen painted just below the windscreen. Someone has mentioned that there was a company called Cox’s Silver Coaches in Northumberland Avenue, Reading, Berkshire in existence at about that time. Would anyone know if there is a link between the charabanc and the company and if Roger Cox – a contributor to this website – is a descendent of the company?

Jim B-P

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11/05/13 – 12:10

Thx, Chris B and Roger, for your comments, which passed me by until now – must’ve been away for a few days. You inner experiences are very interesting and it is definitely a pity that Norman Fowler’s ‘middle way’ didn’t remain. Your comments certainly show up the self-serving nature of the 1930 Act, especially point 3 of the Notice of Objection forms. Of course, the public was quite unaware of what was going on behind virtually closed doors.

Chris Hebbron

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11/05/13 – 18:01

I have to disappoint Jim B-P, I’m afraid. I have no familial connections with the Reading area. Continuing the discussion about the 1985 Ridley Act, the big groups are now driven entirely by a lust for huge profit margins to satisfy the City. The primary objective is that of keeping the share price as high as possible. Locally, Stagecoach has left significant communities in Cambridgeshire with limited service or none at all in its pursuit of big margins. Two years ago, the Stagecoach group returned £340 million to its shareholders, with Brian Souter himself taking £51 million, and his sister, Ann Gloag, £37 million, yet the fares increases continue to pile in year upon year. Making a reasonable return is no longer the name of the game for the heavyweights, and the concept of public service has become a joke. Thankfully, some smaller operators still show how it can and should be done. Around here we have Delaine and Norfolk Green, both of whom have stepped in – Delaine in Market Deeping and Norfolk Green in Kings Lynn – where the avaricious national groups have given up their pursuit of their (many) pounds of flesh.

Roger Cox

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12/05/13 – 06:58

So, Basil Williams: valiant entrepreneur battling the "big boys" in the interests of the travelling public, or under-capitalised and over-extended and out to make a name/empire for himself – what’s the verdict? To me, there seem to be a lot of parallels between Basil Williams and Julian Peddle: over the span of 20+ years I’ve experienced Julian Peddle’s operations in Burton-upon-Trent, Colchester, and Milton Keynes, and I can’t say I was impressed. It would seem to me – both from the pictures of the GSs (nicely turned out, nice livery, good destination blinds), and from Alan Lambert’s book – that Basil Williams tried to present a "big company" image (Hants & Sussex) without ever having had the resources to back it up. Some small independents did manage to do that quite successfully: off the top of my head – West Wales, South Notts, South Yorkshire, Birch (?) . . . Gosport & Fareham/Provincial was I think the last remaining passenger carrying company of a larger group that had diversified, and Jones (Aberbeeg) and Moores (Kelvedon), whilst substantial concerns, were clearly (and defiantly?) independent.

Philip Rushworth

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12/05/13 – 09:30

Ah, Julian Peddle. He adopts the technique of a wholesale business in the bus industry, buying up companies for short periods of operation and then selling them on. Huntingdon can be added to Philip’s list of Mr Peddle’s "successes", and he is still buying up under the Centrebus banner. Locally, Kimes has now fallen into his clutches, and it shows. I agree that there are some parallels with Basil Williams, but, for all its undoubted faults, the old Road Service Licensing system did act as a brake upon the activities of the less dependable elements in the industry. We now have a complete free for all, with no controls whatsoever upon any buccaneers in the business. Also, unlike the rail, air and holiday industries, the bus passenger now has no protective legislation over fares and services whatsoever.

Roger Cox

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13/05/13 – 07:38

I’m in complete agreement with Roger’s comments about the profiteering of the big groups. I was in Torquay at the weekend and when I left there wasn’t a convenient train up the branch to Newton Abbot so I thought I’d take the bus instead. Stagecoach, quite well presented I do admit but when I asked for a single ticket I was staggered to be charged £3.70 for a journey of less than thirty minutes! It appears to be the norm now though, TrentBarton, still technically a private concern, have become one of the most expensive bus companies in England. The tenet seems to be; we provide something akin to a taxi service, let’s charge something akin to taxi fares!

Chris Barker

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14/05/13 – 11:54

Chris, I had to make an early morning journey from my village to Biggleswade last week. The vaunted "Busway" vehicle from Peterborough turned up ten minutes late and cost me £3.70 for the nine mile trip to Huntingdon. The punctual train from there to Biggleswade, some 18 miles, cost £5.90. The bus charges 39p per mile (7/10d in real money) whereas the train costs 33p per mile (6/7d). Bring back road service licensing!

Roger Cox

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14/05/13 – 17:24

Come and live in Edinburgh where Lothian charge £1-50 any distance and the natives still think they are getting a raw deal!!!.

Philip Carlton

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06/01/14 – 07:52

Were any of the GS type ever painted red or was there any planned use in the central area for them?

Colin Rutter

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06/01/14 – 17:05

It’s reputed, Colin, that one was painted red, but never went into service. There were a couple of proposals to put them on Central Area routes, but this came to naught.
The excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website has the whole story. SEE:- www.countrybus.org/GS/GS.html

Chris Hebbron

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07/01/14 – 07:02

The GS fleet of 84 vehicles was way above the actual LT Country Bus requirement in 1953 for OMO (as it then was) buses. At that time one person operated buses were restricted in law to a maximum of 20 passengers, but Traffic Commissioners were empowered to increase this limit to 26 passengers at their discretion, and the GS fleet was so configured. It was rumoured that some of the GS buses were originally intended to form the rolling stock for a reintroduced London "Inter Station" facility that had originally been run by the pre war forward control half decker Leyland Cubs, but this proposal was abandoned. Whatever the truth may have been, in the event, LT had more GS buses than it ever needed.

Roger Cox

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07/01/14 – 08:44

I accept that this is purely a personal opinion, but I have always thought that the GS class vehicles were the most handsome and well proportioned buses of all the normal control "little buses" that we’ve known. The secret may possibly lie largely in the combination of the proprietary bonnet/wing assembly and the inevitably delightful ECW bodywork. Despite all this glowing admiration I’ve unfortunately never ridden on a GS !!

Chris Youhill

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07/01/14 – 13:34

Oh they’re cuddly and loveable little beasts, with their clatterly, chattery Perkins engines and Chinese gearboxes – and you must put a ride on your to do list, Chris. The Mercedes-Benz Vario is the nearest modern bus but doesn’t begin to compare on character and long-lived quality.

David Oldfield

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07/01/14 – 13:35

I agree with you, Chris Y, but it’s clear that LT had a lot of input into the vehicle to get it to the standard they wanted. A&D’s Dennis Falcon/Strachans, were also quite attractive, perhaps greatly aided by the livery. However, the couple of journeys I took on them indicated that they were not so refined as the GS, especially in the ‘engine noise’ department!

Chris Hebbron

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08/01/14 – 07:35

They were certainly popular little buses.
The existence of so many survivors into preservation confirms their attraction – and comparative ease in restoring and saving them.
I have heard it said on the rally circuit that there were only 84 GS’s built, but there are 106 preserved !

Petras409

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02/02/14 – 16:37

Philip Rushworth’s comments about H&S are interesting. I understand that one of the reasons for H&S failure was because Basil Williams was quite foresighted.! He believed that there would be a large demand for buses/coaches after the war ended and ordered quite large numbers of both from Leyland and Bedford. Unluckily for him, when they were delivered up till about 1951, the price of fuel and other factors meant that demand for travel began to drop, and he was left with a lot of new vehicles with insufficient work and he had difficulty balancing the books. One result of this was that new PD1s were hired to Cardiff Corporation for I think 1 year, and many coaches were sold after a short life with H&S. H&S also suffered from the licencing system as follows: One of H&S’s companies was Triumph Coaches who successfully applied for Forces weekend leave services licences to the North of England and Plymouth. A number of Portsmouth operators ran coaches to similar destinations in competition with Triumph, without licences as ‘private hire’ including surprisingly Southdown, who did have some licences including London.

Paul Statham

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06/02/14 – 16:19

I have owned GS42 since December 1973. It was the last one in service in March 72 on Route 336A. It was sold to Matthew Arnold School, Staines where I bought it. I have rallied it every year since then. I don’t know how many miles I’ve covered in it as like other LT buses of the day it doesn’t have a mileometer, but it’s never let me down (Touch Wood). Yes the engine is a bit chattery but very reliable. It always starts after sitting for a week or so without any assistance, glow plugs or easy start. The bodies are very robust with aluminium panels and frame. Very little wood and just the front bonnet and wings in steel. Rust in those parts can be a problem. Based in Surrey I’ve rallied it in Wales and Scotland and many places in between. 42mph and 18-20 mpg.
Slow but economical.

Geoff Heels

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07/02/14 – 06:30

It must be a relief you never bought it from Basil Williams, Geoff!
I can recall visiting an aunt, with my mother, around 1955. She lived at Gomshall and we took a GS on the 448(?) from Guildford to get there and back. I was impressed, but disappointed it never went straight up the steep High Street!
It’s surprising that Perkins are still going vey strong internationally, albeit with an industrial bent nowadays.

Chris Hebbron

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07/02/14 – 06:31

Didn’t Southdown take over Triumph in the early 60’s and continue to use their livery on some coaches?

Paragon

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18/05/15 – 06:50

I have been a GS enthusiast from more or less since these great little vehicles replaced the Cubs on my local route (490) in 1953.
I knew most of our regular Drivers, most of whom put me off outside my front door after Primary School ended for the day. They were The Gentlemen at NF. I got on one morning after I had gone on to senior school, and Sid the driver said "Shut the door please!" The electrics were having an off day! Most of our Driver preferred a GS over an RF as they could tuck the GS in completely in driveways en route whereas it was nose or tail with an RF! Great Days. I wish we could go back to them!

Mr Anon

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19/05/15 – 06:08

Ah, Yes, that personal touch. Very rare nowadays!

Chris Hebbron

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20/05/15 – 05:53

Paragon is right in saying that Southdown took over Triumph Coaches. They had a separate livery (Blue and Cream)but I don’t know whether a separate subsidiary company was set up or not. The Southdown Enthusiasts’ Club issues many publications and no doubt would have one providing the detail.

Andy Hemming

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20/05/15 – 05:54

The personal touch isn’t quite dead. Our next door neighbour drives for a small local company that runs half a dozen rural bus services. He sometimes brings a bus home to wash it! Yesterday, my wife set off in the rain to go to town. The bus stop second from the terminus is a couple of hundred yards away. Neighbour was outside his house, washing a bus as usual. My wife saw this bus turn out of our road, head off to the terminus, then come back a couple of minutes later. When she got on the neighbour said, "Why on earth didn’t you just get on at home?" I am sure this is "strengst verboten" – and hence no clues as to names or location!

Stephen Ford

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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24/12/15 – 06:20

I would reiterate what Roger Cox said. While some licensing control for stage carriage services is obviously necessary to preserve the network ( which is one reason that today the network is not preserved ), the excursion and tour licensing was over regulated and stifled innovation and traffic generation.
The situation where a major operator could object to an excursion destination( and restricting linking licences for destinations of limited appeal), even when that operator patently had no intention of offering that destination is reminiscent of the Keystone Cops. The lost opportunities for both operators and the travelling public must be legion.

Malcolm Hirst

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24/12/15 – 11:48

I’ve been having another look at this thread, prompted by Malcolm’s comment of 24 December 2015, published at 06.20, and I refer to Chris Barker’s thoughts (13 May 2013) about taxi fares.
In one meeting of a Committee of Southampton City Council, my then Manager reported to the team that a Councillor [who was a taxi driver] commented that a Southampton taxi was, mile for mile, more expensive than crossing the Atlantic by Concorde. Now, there’s a thought.

Pete Davies

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25/12/15 – 07:57

Pete, on the subject of cost per mile. Wallsend to Newcastle, 3 miles £2-35p = 78p Per mile. Newcastle to Jedburgh, 57 miles £6-10p = 10.7p Per mile

Ronnie Hoye