Tynemouth and District
1955
Guy Arab IV
Weymann H33/28R

I’m not sure if these 1954, H33/28R Weymann Guy Arab IV’s were Aurora’s or Orion’s. Tynemouth and District had four; FT 7893/6 193/6; and when I started at Percy Main in 1967, they were the oldest D/D vehicles in service. This livery style was current when the vehicle was new, but was discontinued in 1956. All Northern General Transport vehicles underwent a complete overhaul and repaint at three yearly intervals, so the photo is pre 1957.
In 1955, they were followed by five Orion Arab IV’s; FT 9003/7 203/7; In addition to a greater seating capacity ‘H35/28R’ they had several other differences, no air ducts on the roof, the upper front windows had an opening vent above them, the rear side window on the upper deck had a vertically mounted opening vent, and they had a different rear light layout. As ever, NGT specified the Gardner 5LW engine for the GUY chassis and they seldom gave any trouble, but the body let them down. I don’t know if Weymann were working to NGT specifications, but too many corners had been cut to save weight, and they suffered badly as a result requiring constant maintenance. The interiors were positively Spartan, they were single skinned with exposed frames, and with nothing to stop them vibrating the side panels were constantly drumming. They became known as ‘the rattletraps’ and were never the most popular vehicles in the fleet, the last ones were withdrawn in 1968, and not many were sorry to see them go. Some of NGT’s went on to see service with other companies, so it speaks volumes for NGT that poorly built bodies lasted as long as they did. To be fair, by 1958, when the Orion bodied PD3/4’s came into service, lessons had been learned, they were well built and finished to a much higher standard and did not suffer from the shortcomings of their predecessors.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

09/06/13 – 11:42

This is an Orion, Ronnie. The fact that it is a third rate, single skinned rattletrap confirms that. The Aurora was the interim design which retained the profile of the recently posted Sheffield Regent III with aluminium window pans of which Sheffield had hoards of PD2s and Regent IIIs. Sheffield and Manchester, and no doubt many others, had (nay demanded) improved later Orions built to Aurora standards and finish detail. To confuse the issue further, though, Weymann resurrected the Aurora name for the forward entrance version of the Orion – ie entrance just behind the engine. [Sheffield’s early Orions on Regent IIIs, Regent Vs and PD2s were atrocious just as these Guy’s bodies evidently were.]

David Oldfield

11/06/13 – 12:34

Even the Orion doesn’t look too bad on a real-radiator Arab IV! With that light body these 5LW Guys must have been pretty economical. Did someone replace the back axle at some time with one from an Arab III?

Ian Thompson

12/06/13 – 15:47

Well spotted, Ian, I never noticed that. From the photos I have of the rest of T&D’s Arab IV’s this must be a one off in that respect as the remainder have much larger rear hubs. Many of the half cabs in the fleet didn’t have a full interior window behind the driver, they had a small sliding one at the top that enabled the conductor to talk to the driver, the larger space at the bottom where the window would have been was a case for adverts, this one would seem to be the latter

Ronnie Hoye

12/06/13 – 21:08

That’s pretty mean of them—blanking out the window behind the cab! Normal passengers would have been deprived of the view forward and abnormal children like me (any other volunteers?) couldn’t have stood on tiptoe in fascination watching the driver.

Ian Thompson

17/06/13 – 06:41

You were not alone, Ian. In Manchester drivers could draw a blind to cover the window behind them. About half of them did, which was very disappointing. But when they didn’t, I learned exactly half of how to drive a bus – the right half. I had no idea what happened on the left.

Peter Williamson

17/06/13 – 10:19

I too learnt a lot about how to drive from sitting behind the driver: including what to do if someone pulls out in front of you: no, it didn’t include braking. The cab blind was to stop night-time lighting reflection: it often had a little square hole in it: they have cctv today. Fortunately few drivers used it in the day: it prevented non-verbal communication with the conductor, be that male or, yes, female.

Joe

Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd
1965
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Harrington Grenadier C47F

Comparing the various body styles available in the sixties amongst my photos I decided that my all time favourite had to be the Harrington Grenadier.
This Maidstone & District example with it’s superb livery which complemented the sleek elegant lines of the bodywork was as near perfection as was possible, this particular vehicle was numerically M&D’s last Grenadier and also their last AEC Reliance and was still numbered C72 under the old alpha/numeric system when I took the photo in the late sixties.
They were good to look at, good to ride on and an absolute delight to drive what more could you ask.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

07/06/13 – 05:54

Following on from the Sheffield Regent III/Weymann, another form of bliss and perfection. Apart from the beauty and elegance of the coachwork and the thoroughbred 2U3RA chassis we have M & D. Apart from the superb livery itself, why did M & D vehicles always gleam – and other operators could make their vehicles look shabby at an early age. Care and pride certainly – but that cannot be all.

David Oldfield

07/06/13 – 07:59

Used to regularly see these vehicles up close at Victoria Coach Station and DD and DO are totally correct in what they say – these and other M&D vehicles stood out amongst the multitude of operators and liveries.
The rear wheel trims used widely in the fleet and the proportions and shades of the colours used always seemed to fit their vehicles well and, yes, they were always clean.
Under NBC standards slipped and by the time I went to live in Crowborough in the mid 1980s the fleet was nothing to write home about, especially during the invasion of the Mercedes bread vans.
The final M&D colour scheme prior to the privatised company losing its identity was a return to the standards of the 1960s but that soon went under the bland uniformity of Arriva.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/06/13 – 11:34

As a number of you know already, my ‘formative years’ were spent in the Lancaster area. Ribble had Harringtons – Cavaliers – of both 30 and 36 foot lengths. I’m not sure why, but I always had the idea that the 36 group looked too long. Looking at this beauty, I think I know why. The Ribble ones had the red stripe under the windows. Here, the relevant area is cream, and it looks a lot better! Thanks for posting, Dave.

Pete Davies

08/06/13 – 08:03

Taking up David’s point about gleaming vehicles. Before pride became a dirty word, NGT group vehicles were all hand painted, and finished off with a coat of clear varnish. I cant speak for other depots, but coaches at Percy Main were never subjected to the rigors of the mechanical wash, so they were always immaculately turned out, perhaps M&D did the same

Ronnie Hoye

08/06/13 – 08:04

I can’t help but agree with the previous comments regarding the Harrington Cavalier and Grenadier coach bodies. They were indeed graceful-looking beasts and must surely rank as one of the great British design classics. They suited the elegant spa town of Harrogate very well, when either gracing the front of The Old Swan Hotel on Swan Road (Southdown Leyland), or on occasions the Hotel St George on Ripon Road (Greenslades AEC). If luck was in, smart Northern General (AEC) and East Yorkshire (Leyland) examples could also be seen travelling through the town. The Maidstone & District livery suited them admirably, and the backdrop in your photo Diesel Dave, looks ‘just right’ as well, and thank you for posting it.

Brendan Smith

08/06/13 – 08:04

36-foot Cavaliers looked over-long because they had too many small windows, which is precisely why the Grenadier was introduced. Plaxton similarly built multi-windowed 36-foot Embassies for only one season (mainly for Wallace Arnold) before doubling the window size.
I may have said this here before, but it is worth noting that the Harrington Grenadier was the final flourish of the British curvy-coach tradition that began in the mid-1930s. After that, everything was straight-waisted.

Peter Williamson

08/06/13 – 17:51

Hopefully before anyone else spots my mistake I must point out that C72 was probably not M&D’s last Reliance although definitely their last Reliance coach, it was delivered in November ’66 as was a batch of Marshall D/P bodied Reliances No’s SC 73-82 all of which had higher chassis numbers.

Diesel Dave

03/05/14 – 08:51

Looking splendid in their original green and cream livery these two 30′ M & D Harrington Cavaliers were on display at Detling Showground April 2014. They are the two survivors from the batch delivered in 1962, 25 & 28 TKR on an AEC Reliance chassis.

Peter Jewell

06/02/15 – 06:24

I worked for the Maidstone & District motor services during the early 1960`s from Tunbridge Wells depot, primarily as an OMB where we had to operate the entrance doors. Occasionally we got hold of a "main key" shift which entailed driving a double decker on the longer routes to Brighton, Hastings, Ashford or Gravesend. All of the vehicles concerned IE Leyland PD2s, AEC Regents were fitted with rear doors operated from the drivers cab and the rear platform with the driver primarily responsible. The only complaints from the conductor were if the driver forgot to close the doors when pulling away from a stop.

Reg Stubbs

13/02/15 – 06:15

I was for a few years a conductor and then a driver working For M & D at Gravesend depot from 1969. I am amazed that three vehicles associated with this depot from my time have survived into preservation, including 4025 or C25 in its original guise. This was a superb vehicle to drive and many a happy time was had going to Brighton or Ramsgate in this vehicle. The coach that tended to be allocated to me at Gravesend was a Grenadier and one of the six longer (37.5ft) coaches; and the only one allocated to Gravesend. I can agree they were superb looking vehicles and a treat to drive

Frank Weston

Sheffield Corporation
1948
AEC Regent III
Weymann H30/26R

The three batches of Weymann bodied AEC Regent III’s, comprising forty vehicles in all, were, to my mind at least, arguably the most attractive of all the double deckers taken into stock by Sheffield Transport Department in the immediate post-war period. The initial batch of ten, 527-536 (JWB 727/828/729-736) probably had the edge, with their half drop windows instead of the top sliders fitted to the other two deliveries of fifteen vehicles each, 558-572 (JWE 858-872) and 250-264 (KWE 250-264), one of the latter batch which is seen here. The rear ends of these buses always looked particularly attractive to me, with the well radiused top corners to the platform window, not to mention that classic of an emergency window upstairs. And of course, the outswept bottom panels of these Weymann bodies only added to their overall elegant appearance.
It was an overcast afternoon in July, 1961 when 258 was recorded on film, having just swept through the doors of Herries Road garage, about to take up service on one of the 94 group of workers services from the large Southey Green and Parson Cross housing estates to the miles of steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough. Later that same year, 258, along with sister Regents 251/2/4, were withdrawn and sold to Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport for further service, a couple of the quartet lasting a further seven years, not being finally withdrawn from the seaside until 1968, having given a very creditable twenty year service life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless

04/06/13 – 18:05

The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).

Stephen Ford

04/06/13 – 18:06

Classic AEC, classic Weymann, classic Sheffield, shear perfection; or am I prejudiced? Ah, so what?

David Oldfield

05/06/13 – 06:07

527 – 536 also didn’t have the out-swept skirt and were delivered without the smudge roof. Regrettably, I had little contact with these fine beasts as Herries buses didn’t penetrate our corner of Sheffield until the 38 was replaced by the 42/53 cross city service. Occasionally the Roberts and Cravens did rush hour duty. Where would these Weymanns have been originally? Town Head Street? [Herries Road depot was not built until 1952.]

David Oldfield

05/06/13 – 18:04

David, when they were new, the initial batch 527-536 were at Leadmill Road, and all the others went to Bramall Lane garage. I remember riding on the 558-572 batch a lot around the time I took the picture, when they were working on the Petre Street-City-Graves Park service 34, some of my most enjoyable bus rides ever!

Dave Careless

06/06/13 – 06:16

Now that you mention it, I do remember them on Graves Park 34s. [Who would have done 74s? Wasn’t there some inter-working?] I was only 8 when that picture was taken. I wasn’t let loose, on my own, on a bus for another two years – and then only under controlled circumstances.

David Oldfield

06/06/13 – 17:08

Many of these Weymanns were indeed at Bramall Lane Depot. They serviced among others, 34 Graves Park/Petre Street (Reform Chapel) which was a replacement tram route from about 1925. The AEC 111s mostly on this route were normally with Northern Coach Builders squarer profile, which I personally preferred. I preferred them because of the interior lights, (which were ribbed squarish), the top deck emergency window (shaped like a loaf of Hovis) & the fact my dad drove this route daily for many years! The route 35 to Holythorpe Rise used the Weymanns pictured. The 33 route to Hemsworth (in my time), were what I thought were AEC 111s Park Royal with nice interiors, including a 1" ish green band between windows & roof downstairs. This was my favourite at the time. Since getting back into buses, they could have been Cravens. The 36 route was a rush hour duplicate to Heeley Green. On this route you had anything with 4 wheels & an engine. This was my preferred transport to school. It could be pre-war, post war, single or double deckers. You never had the same bus 2 days running, heaven. The other route on the via Bramall Lane route was the 38 to Norton.

Andy Fisher

06/06/13 – 17:08

Upstairs front offside, of course, was always the preferred option, but a close second was the lower saloon nearside front seat, peering over into the cab and watching every action of the driver, manhandling the pre-selector lever through the gears as we bowled along the Wicker. Leaping off just before we came to a stop at Reform Chapel terminus at the Petre Street end of the route, and watching the conductor lean out and wind the blinds over the platform round to City and Hollythorpe Rise never ceased to fascinate. Happy summer days.

Dave Careless

07/06/13 – 05:50

No Park Royals between 1935 and 1955 (Monocoaches) or 1963 (Regent V front loaders). Could be Cravens but the Roberts had a more Park Royal profile. The 38 was originally Lowedges Road. It only became Norton when the 42/53 were redirected to Lowedges Road from Woodseats and Graves Park. I’m sure Bramhall Lane had closed by the time Norton took on the 38 route number. I think my favourites were Cravens and Weymann in that order. It would be another four or five years before my all time favourite (Roes) appeared for the first time. This time of year (summer) I would make a trek to the 38 (Lowedges Road) terminus at about this time (1800) to do the same, Dave. They were principally the OWE, RWB and SWE Regent IIIs – Roe, Roe and Weymann.

David Oldfield

08/06/13 – 07:56

Andy, square ribbed light fittings – yes, we had them in Nottingham too (and indeed Bartons no. 906, a second hand Leyland PD2 acquired from Yorkshire Woollen about 1961, had them as well). I’m away from home on holiday at the moment, but on my other computer at home I have a selection of "light" pictures (a strange but innocent fascination of mine!) and will post a photo when I get home.

Stephen Ford

08/06/13 – 17:50

My fascination does not stop at lights. The flat wheel rims of many buses compared to the dished ones on Leylands, (preferred) the Leyland wheel chrome rims compared to the AECs & Crossleys. The fact buses without chrome rims look awful & dated, shapes & styles of opening windows, different dashboards & last but not least rear emergency exit windows upstairs. Does this make me weird?

Andy Fisher

09/06/13 – 15:27

Andy. Weird? Not in the least. Emergency windows and wheel nut rings are the stuff of legend. For instance, not only the classic Weymann emergency window in the picture, which I referred to in the caption, but perhaps my all-time favourite, the two-piece rear upstairs window on the post-war Leyland bodies, to go along with the Leyland wheel trims to which you refer. As always, the devil is in the details. If somebody was to put out an expensive hardback volume on emergency window design, I’d be first in line to buy it. Or perhaps you would; hopefully they’d sell more than two copies.
Agreed that buses without wheel trims tend to look unfinished somehow. Oddly enough, even though LT painted both wheels and trims brown, a Routemaster with brown wheels and no wheel trims, even though they weren’t chrome, just doesn’t look right. Thank goodness the LT trolleybus department operated under a different set of rules, and maintained the chrome wheel trims on those magnificent vehicles right to the end.

Dave Careless

17/06/13 – 06:47

Just having a look in my books, both Leyland & AECs did have rear centre hub adornments, instead of the 6 or 8 nuts. The Leyland was especially nice with rings & the Leyland logo. The AECs seem to just have the AEC triangle & letters similar to the radiator badge.
Looking in my tram book, there is a picture of Haymarket from around 1936. Quite identifiable were the Weymann emergency exit, but also in the picture were rear emergency exit windows in the sausage shape windows similar to later Roes. If we did not have Roes in 1936, can anyone help me identify them please?

Andy Fisher

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/06/13 – 08:00

As promised, here is an interior picture showing the square fluted light fittings. Sadly these are mounted upside down (!) as they always were on Nottingham’s big fleet of 1950 trolleybuses, and the later Park Royal AEC Regents. The correct way was with the securing recess at the bottom edge – or at least, I always thought they looked more balanced that way.

Stephen Ford

19/06/13 – 14:33

Correct again Steven, these were the lights I remember. Going back to the sausage shape emergency exits, could these be Cravens or Roberts?

Andy Fisher

20/06/13 – 07:13

Either, but at at a guess more likely to be Cravens.

David Oldfield

20/06/13 – 07:15

Strange how there is a natural order of things and it’s not always the way things were designed to be! Whatever the ‘designed’ way here, I agree with you, Stephen!
Of course, you can’t argue with ’round’ which is how I recall covered lights! However, shades were always better than bare bulbs. It was always a course of annoyance to me when they took the shades off the 1938 UndergrounD stock. Each one of those must have been a time-consuming conversion, when studied.

Chris Hebbron