Copyright R F Mack

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son)
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
Leyland B44F

The attached Photograph dating back to the 1950 show HAV 384 in Barnsley Bus station preparing to depart for Pontefract on the Ideal service route run jointly with H Wray & Son. This vehicle was new to Simpsons of Rosehearty before being acquired by Taylors. The driver is Dennis Taylor, his older brother Len also drove. This was in fact one of the buses used on my school run on a morning and tea time to the High School and Kings School in Pontefract. This involved 5 buses on the morning and afternoon run. The morning being the worst as I lived in a village which was the last port of call into Pontefract and 1 of the 5 was the service bus you would put your hand out and eventually one would stop. Although the service ran in all weathers its time keeping was not what you would call excellent. It left the top of my village at 10 to the hour and arrived any time between 20 to and 10 past. You could always guarantee a place on the last bus from Pontefract on a Saturday night. They never left any one, a 35 seater was stopped by the police one night and 72 occupants alighted!!!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn

06/08/15 – 05:50

Mention of packed last buses brings to mind the apocryphal story of the last Pennine bus from Skipton which had a passenger sat alongside the engine on the near side mudguard!

Chris Hough

06/08/15 – 05:52

How very interesting! Thank you for posting this. It raises a little query which, perhaps, ought to be in the "Q&A" section.
I have a bought slide of JWF 885, an Albion CX13, which was listed in my source’s catalogue as belonging to Ideal, Wray & Son, of Harrogate. We’re not talking of the same firm here, I suppose. Are we?

Pete Davies

06/08/15 – 07:54

Pete the Wrays of Harrogate I think were based at Starbeck, they were mainly a coach operation if I remember right. They sold out to Eddie Brown. H. Wray of the Ideal service were based in Lord Street Hoyle Mill Barnsley, where I think it was the 4pm out of Barnsley used to stop to fill up complete with passengers before continuing on its route.

Brian Lunn

06/08/15 – 11:22

Thank you, Brian. I thought my assorted sources might be wrong – again.

Pete Davies

06/08/15 – 11:22

JWF 885 belonged to France (Ideal Motor Services), Market Weighton, East Yorkshire.

David Hick

06/08/15 – 11:23

JWF 885 was new to Baldry of Sancton in 7/51 it passed to France’s Motors T/A Ideal of Market Weighton in 1/54, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire.
JWF was a Albion FT39N with Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body!!
Ideal is still operating today, but is now part of York Pullman, but is kept as a separate business still in its original green livery

Mike Davies

06/08/15 – 11:24

I’m a little puzzled here: I thought that Leyland gave up building single deck bodies, in favour of just double deck ones, as a peacetime decision, at least until it had to with the Leyland National/Lynx. Am I wrong, or was this a one-off demonstrator?

Chris Hebbron

06/08/15 – 15:40

Hi CH
There are 5 pictures of post war Leyland bodied SDs on SCT ’61 photo index Body Builder-Leyland picture number 249 onwards plus more further down.

John Lomas

07/08/15 – 07:17

I read an item on Simpsons and they received three of these Tigers HAV384/5/6 There is a photo on flicker of HAV386 I also understand that the 3 were mentioned in the Leyland Bus book, however I am unable to check this as I am in the process of sorting my book storage and I can not put my had on the book in question.

Brian Lunn

07/08/15 – 07:17

Interesting to read Mike Davies’ comment about JWF 885 having a Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body. The PSV Circle records it as Barnaby but I have a recollection of visiting France at Market Weighton some 40 years ago and seeing it with a Scottish Aviation body sticker. For all that time I’ve thought I must have been mistaken but here is some other evidence that points that way.
Answers on a postcard.

John Carr

07/08/15 – 07:18

Brian, it was W. Pyne & Sons who were based in Starbeck (on Camwal Road) and their white and purple coaches were a familiar sight around the area for many years. Wray’s operated from their garage at Dacre Banks, which is between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge. Their coaches usually had ‘Wray’s of Summerbridge" on the rear however – Summerbridge being a larger village, literally just over the River Nidd from Dacre Banks. (Presumably Wray’s felt people would know where Summerbridge was, but might not with Dacre Banks!). Wray’s livery was mid-grey, greeny-grey and red, and the firm’s coaches could often be seen in the summer months with windscreen stickers proclaiming "On Hire To West Yorkshire". Indeed, some of their distinctive coaches could be often be seen parked on the forecourt of WY’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate. At one time Wray’s fleet included a Yeates-bodied AEC Reliance and Yeates-bodied Bedford SB, whose flamboyant styling provided an interesting contrast as they rubbed shoulders with the classic lines of WY’s ECW-bodied LS, MW and RE coaches.

Brendan Smith

07/08/15 – 07:19

There is more info for W Pyne & Son Starbeck at this link

Peter

07/08/15 – 09:21

Thanks Brendan for the correction, I remember now. I should have twigged as I travelled past their garage at Dacre Banks often. I do remember seeing the "On hire to West Yorkshire" as you say in the busy period.

Brian Lunn

07/08/15 – 17:07

Chris, your comments re Leyland single deck bodies prompted me to plough through my old issues of Classic Bus as something rang a bell (issue 5, June-July 1993). You are right that Leyland did focus on only double deck bodies immediately post war, due to the huge demand for them at the time. This lead to the successful Farington body in 1950 which was built until 1954. The single deck bodies came about following the integral Olympic project in 1949, in conjunction with MCW. After that they produced two standardised single deck bodies for the Royal Tiger, the familiar all metal, centre entrance coach body from 1950, and the rather angular bus version from 1951. Nothing followed for the Tiger Cub so, as you have stated, next in line was the National, nearly two decades later.

Mike Morton

08/08/15 – 09:24

The photo of HAV 384 could only have been taken in the mid-1960s, since Simpsons themselves were running it well into the decade.
There were only two vehicles in the batch, HAV 384 and HAV 385 – the latter operated for Garner, Bridge of Weir after service with Simpsons.
‘HAV 386’ was an invention of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group, the vehicle which has appeared in photographs showing that registration was really ERN 709, originally Ribble 386, later with UTA/Ulsterbus.
Talking of Wrays of Dacre Banks, didn’t they too finish up somewhere in the Knaresborough area? Whether or not it was Starbeck I don’t know, I don’t know the area all that well.

David Call

08/08/15 – 10:18

Well, this does get confusing. I’m glad I asked. I’m attaching a view of my bought slide, which doesn’t look to have a very green livery to me, unless it’s a combination of scanning a bought slide which may or may not have rendered the original properly, and my less than pristine eyesight. As noted in my original comment, it was listed as a CX13.
Chris, Leyland built large numbers of bodies in both bus and coach form on the Royal Tiger, many of them for Ribble. They finally gave up body building in about 1953. My understanding has always been that they were too busy on chassis to afford to have anyone on building bodies. Look under Pennine in the operators section in the column on the left of the page for a view of the demonstrator Royal Tiger coach. I believe Baxters of Airdrie had a former demonstrator in bus form.

Pete Davies

08/08/15 – 15:32

Pete, I think the Baxter’s vehicle you have in mind would be NTJ 985, but it wasn’t an ex-demonstrator, it had been new to Corless of Charnock Richard. After the takeover of Baxter’s by Eastern Scottish it ran in the latter’s livery for a while. //www.sct61.org.uk/xb107

David Call

09/08/15 – 06:40

Thank you, David. Now, any other words of advice from anyone about JWF?

Pete Davies

09/08/15 – 09:57

Thanks, Mike M & Pete D for reminding me of Leyland’s coach version of the Royal Tigers’ body, which I DO recall now, working for Southdown. I never remember seeing the bus version, perhaps because they tended to be and stay ‘oop North’!

Chris Hebbron

10/08/15 – 05:43

There’s a photo of JWF at https://www.flickr.com/photos/ which says it’s an FT39N with Scottish Aviation 31-seat body. In view of the size I would definitely rule out CX13, and although I have never before seen a Scottish Aviation body with a curved window line (the windows don’t look very happy, so perhaps it’s the only one they built!), the trimmings do look exactly like theirs.

Peter Williamson

10/08/15 – 11:23

Thank you, Peter W!

Pete Davies

18/08/15 – 05:40

The two buses HAV 384 and 385 left the Simpson fleet in March 1961 and October 1960.
HAV 384 going directly to Taylor of Cudworth part of the Ideal consortium. They sold the vehicle to Mellers of Goxhill in October 1967. It operated for them until October 1968.
HAV 385 went directly to Garner of Bridge of Weir in October 1960 and then to Tiger Coaches of Salsburgh in March 1967.
From my own notes and checked with the PSV Circle publication SAD1, pre war operators in Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire.

Stephen Bloomfield

18/08/15 – 10:36

It seems I was a few years out in my estimation of when Simpson’s disposed of HAV384 – anyway, at least it wasn’t in the 1950s.
Does anyone know why Simpson’s sold HAV 384/5 at such an early age? A year or two later they were buying secondhand Royal Tigers of similar vintage. //public.fotki.com/boballoa/1/

David Call

Sheffield Corporation
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/33F

This bus was one of a batch of nine supplied new to the B fleet as fleet number 1355. This batch were extensively used from new on service 41 to Hackenthorpe where there was a large new housing development. They were the first rear engined double deckers for the B fleet and were the final batch with rear destination displays before reversion to rear route numbers only.
Following the absorption of the B fleet in 1970, the bus was renumbered to 225. Here it is seen at Fulwood terminus of service 88 which replaced the former tram route. Fulwood was the elegant part of the City! The date was 26th August 1973, the bus looks smart and as always the Sheffield livery helped to disguise the box shape of early rear engined deckers. It carries the final pre PTE fleetname introduced I think by General Manager Noel Macdonald. It still has a full set of Leyland wheel embellishers although eleven years old. Note the Sheffield bus stop flag, quite distinctive in the days before the nationally standardised type.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/08/15 – 16:06

I always thought the original Atlantean and Fleetline designs from the MCW group had a certain symmetry that was lost with the later moves to graft on curved or vee windscreens and peaked domes which always looked like a bit of a lash up to me. Yes the design was ‘boxy’ but it was simple seemed to work. The PRV/Roe early incarnations though were absolutely dreadful with the top heavy Bridgemaster upper deck characteristics. Of all the body builders on the early rear-engined buses only Alexander really got it right with the Glasgow design.

Philip Halstead

04/08/15 – 06:54

I agree with Philip regarding the style of the early MCW Atlantean/Fleetline bodywork.
I have always thought it to be a rather good, quite attractive design which was most appropriate for the then ground breaking rear engined buses.

David Slater

05/08/15 – 06:20

But are these wheels with their embellishers red- as they should be- or blue, reputed to have been in "celebration" of a rare & brief Conservative takeover of the city council in 1968? Bit of history here.

Joe

Best I can do I’m afraid.

06/08/15 – 05:49

Both red AND blue would you say? Red centre on a blue wheel?

Joe

06/08/15 – 15:37

I lived at Hackenthorpe when these were introduced. What a revelation they were replacing the AEC batch 190 -198. 1261-1263 + Leylands 159-161. At eve rush hour when full standing by the driver you would marvel at the gear changing (a lollipop in a fag pkt). When new as joint omnibus fleet they did not carry the cities coat of arms! When did 225 receive it? Must say it wasn’t long before I missed the wonderful exhaust note of the AECs!!!
NB I am collecting photos of any buses on the 41 route in 50s/60s if anyone can help?

David Grant

07/08/15 – 17:06

I preferred the Park Royal body from around the same period.

Andy Fisher

02/09/15 – 07:06

I also lived at Hackenthorpe when 1350-1358 were new.
The upper deck of 1357 was totally destroyed in a fire in the late 60s, while operating on the 41 to Hackenthorpe. It received a new Park Royal body and re-entered service in 1968.

Martyn Else

Copyright Unknown

Barlow & Fisher
1929
Gilford SD
???? B26F

This Gilford SD, chassis number 10561 was new to Mason, Gateshead in January 1929 but passed only six months later to Barlow & Fisher of Gleadless, Sheffield. At that time, Gleadless was at the outer edge of Sheffield on the Yorkshire/Derbyshire border.
This photo must be immediately after Sheffield Corporation took over the business of Barlow & Fisher in 1933 as it is outside the Corporation’s Bramall Lane garage but still showing Barlow & Fisher as legal owner. Sheffield sold it in August of the same year. I wonder where it went and why its stays at Mason and again at Sheffield were so short? Incidentally, the PSV Circle’s Gilford book suggests that it might have been a demonstrator before going to Mason. One further question – can anyone identify the body-maker? Perhaps Wycombe, as many Gilfords were?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

30/07/15 – 10:57

This is a Gilford SD, not an OT, and there would be a number in front of the designation. In Gilford terminology, OT meant "over-type", i.e. forward control. This one is normal control, or "standard drive" in Gilford’s description. The figures denoted the wheelbase, and the popular ones were 15 (15 feet), 166 (16 ft 6 ins) or 168 (16 ft 8 ins). The length of this one could possibly be a fifteen footer, making it a 15SD type, but I stand to be corrected by those who can track down the individual buses on this site.

Michael Hampton

30/07/15 – 10:59

Thanks Michael I have edited the title and copy, will wait for the number.

Peter

31/07/15 – 06:40

Thanks for the info Michael. I am no expert so I took the detail from the PSV Circle MM5 book. Clearly this will need amendment if and when reprinted. Any advice on the bodybuilder?

Les Dickinson

31/07/15 – 06:41

I see no sign of Gruss Springs on this vehicle, but there is a leaf spring end, plus shackle just poking out in front of the offside front wheel. Were these a slightly later development, or were they only put on some models?

Chris Hebbron

31/07/15 – 06:41

Mason was a Gilford dealer, so it would have been a demonstrator for Mason, rather than before passing to Mason. As such, the aim would be to sell it before it got too old. Sheffield would have got rid of it because it was non-standard (and it looks a bit worn-out)

David Hick

07/08/15 – 17:04

Bramall lane Garage opened in 1926.
I always thought (in the 1950s) their depot was Coal Aston, (on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border), or Station Road, Halfway more likely, (also on the border). In the 1930s, Gleadless was not on the border, Woodseats & then Meadowhead was, (border past the STD sports ground, (Four Lane Ends), just before Low Edges Road was built.

Andy Fisher

19/08/15 – 07:15

Not sure exactly where the Barlow and Fisher depot was, but in the 1930s Gleadless certainly was on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border – the next village was Ridgeway, which was in Derbyshire.
I think there is some confusion with Booth and Fisher, who’s depot was originally Killamarsh and then Halfway, and who ran through Coal Aston.
Barlow and Fisher ran the Sheffield to Chesterfield route via Gleadless, Ridgeway and Ford, so Gleadless would have been an appropriate base. When they were taken over jointly by Sheffield and East Midland, the route became the 99.

John May

29/06/16 – 16:07

Maybe it’s just about to be taken away for scrapping. It looks as if it has just been pushed out of the garage & left where it stopped with front wheel against the kerb. Also the front panel seems to be completely detached. I am currently helping with the restoration of 168SD WX 3567 and have gathered quite a lot of knowledge on Gilfords through that.

Brian

30/06/16 – 06:35

I notice that there appears to be no nearside headlamp, either.
Is WX 3567 the Gilford I saw at Carlton Colville a few years ago, Brian?

Chris Hebbron

30/06/16 – 06:36

Registration looks like CN 3795 – an impressive looking machine indeed, even if a little "faded" or jaded.

Chris Youhill

30/06/16 – 10:11

The Motor Transport Yearbook for 1929 gives Barlow and Fisher as a company registered 24th July 1929 at Ford, Ridgeway, Derbyshire, but with registered office at Brierley House, Gleadless, Sheffield. The directors were A D Fisher, W H Barker and J F Skelton.
Booth and Fisher is not listed at that time (nor is Joseph Booth) – Booth’s partnership with Donald Fisher appears to date from the mid 1930s, although the limited company of that name was only formed much later.

Peter Delaney

01/07/16 – 06:06

Gilford used the Gruss air springs on the 168SD and the 168OT from late 1929, the Front Wheel Drive prototypes also had them but the Zeus and Hera did not, as this is either a 15SD or a 166SD it was built without them.
As far as I can see the other OEMs users of the Gruss equipment in the UK were Albion with the AM463 RAF ambulance and Crossley with the IGL8 Indian Army lorry.

Stephen Allcroft

31/12/16 – 16:27

Chris, apologies for the delay in replying to your question, don’t look at the site very often. Yes you are quite correct, WX 3567 is currently being restored at East Anglia Transport Museum, Carlton Colville.

Brian