Copyright Pete Davies

Southampton Corporation
1969
AEC 2MP2R Swift
East Lancs B47D

Here are an off side front and a near side rear view of Southampton Corporation TCR 293H fleet number 7. This AEC 2MP2R Swift was built in 1969 with East Lancs B47D bodywork. She is seen in Pound Tree Road between duties. I captured her on film in April 1976. There is something odd about the name of this road, which might be resolved if the UK ever goes fully "European". Does it refer to Kilogram or Euro? After all, there are people who think money grows on trees!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 10:27

Please refer to the "Gallery" entry on the King Alfred Running Day for comparative views of the Strachan body on similar chassis.

Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 10:28

Not sure I like ‘peak’ at the front, but otherwise, it’s a nice design in a simple livery. I recall that Seddon bodywork had similar peaks. Sign of the time, I suppose.
I think it’s fair to say that East Lancs bodies were not common along or near the South Coast. They are not too familiar to me as a Southerner.
Maybe the road should be re-named Poundstretcher Road, in recognition of the country’s plight!

Chris Hebbron

13/01/13 – 15:07

No, Chris, EL bodies don’t seem to have had much of a following in the South. I think Eastbourne was the only other Municipal, plus Aldershot & District and Southdown. Southampton bought them because, as one Manager told me, they were "cheap and cheerful"!

Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 15:08

I have a picture of another Southampton Swift/Strachan, MTR 424F, which I hope to submit in a Southampton gallery at some time. As for the rarity of East Lancs bodywork "south of Watford", you’re right, Chris. Aldershot & District and Eastbourne and Luton Corporations had them. To the east, Southend had some, and Lowestoft had a couple of PD2s in 1965. Otherwise, nothing, unless, of course, anyone else knows differently.

It occurs to me that Gideon Osborne would be looking to set up huge plantations of Pound Trees accessed by a thoroughfare called Recovery Road.

Roger Cox

13/01/13 – 17:19

Roger: just the 8 Reliances and 26 Lolines at Reading, of course. Not southern, but geographically south of Watford, there was also also Cardiff with a sizeable number; the Merthyr fleet doesn’t quite qualify as ‘south of Watford’!
The Pound of Pound Tree is surely the place to which illegally parked, or similarly recalcitrant, buses would be towed; in order to suitably screen any double-deckers from public view, it would have been surrounded by trees, the traditional corrugated iron fence being insufficiently tall.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/01/13 – 17:19

East Lancs bodies south of Watford must also include Southdown’s rebodied TD4 and TD5’s carried out between 1946 and 1950 of which there were a total of fifty nine plus of course their final batch of PD2/12’s Nos789-812 considered by many to be the best of the various body builders used on that chassis.
In later years East Lancs became much more popular in the region being bought by Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and Plymouth municipalities all outside of the sites timescale I know.

Diesel Dave

14/01/13 – 07:12

I must say, I like Alan’s theory of how the road got its name and Roger’s idea of a plantation of this sort of tree. It may be of interest that the bit of public open space to the nearside of the bus forms a gyratory layout, and is known – among bus crews at least – as WINO ISLAND. Guess why!
Thank you, Dave, for your thoughts on other South Coast operators of the EL (or Neepsend!) bodywork. Almost all of Southampton’s Atlanteans had the product and almost all are too new for these pages. I think the same applies to the Brightons and Portsmouths. The Southampton ones with other bodywork came from Plymouth and were well and truly clapped out when they arrived.
I look forward to Roger’s forthcoming "Southampton Gallery"!

Pete Davies

14/01/13 – 07:13

I can’t imagine how I came to forget the Southdown examples of East Lancs, Dave. I saw them many times when I popped down to Brighton from Croydon. Thanks for reminding me. I agree that the Welsh examples should be included in our survey, Alan. Cardiff is certainly south of Watford, and I doubt that the people of Merthyr would consider themselves to be "northerners" or even "midlanders".

Roger Cox

14/01/13 – 15:34

Southdown also had 40 East Lancs bodied Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 saloons. The first 10 had rear entrances and the rest had centre entrances. All were later converted to front entrance OMO.

Roy Nicholson

16/06/13 – 06:55

To stray from the bus theme but to stay with the ‘Old ‘ bit, a Pound was something every village had back to Norman times, before land was enclosed by greedy landowners. Animals were grazed around the village but strays were rounded up and put in the Pound, released when a fine was paid, The connection with life today is obvious.

Roger Ingle

29/06/14 – 17:27

I cannot add anything to the debate about the name of Pound Tree Road, except to point out that for most of its length the road is between two parks, so there are plenty of trees. If there’s any corrugated iron in the area, it’s on the bus shelters.
As far as East Lancs bodywork is concerned, it might have been cheap – certainly the Venture history of East Lancs reports that their tender for a batch of Mancunians was very competitive. However, it was nevertheless considered to be of good quality, being both substantially built and well finished. The most notable weakness was a tendency to change minor details on every batch of vehicles! I worked for the Transport Department during part of the 1980s, and the engineers were happy with the EL products. SCT did later acquire about a dozen Park Royal/Roe bodied Atlanteans from Plymouth, but as Pete Davies says above, they were past their best, but the interiors were also very utilitarian. Maybe that was down to the operator, but Park Royal seemed to have been on to a cost reduction ‘tick’ since the Leyland PD2s and AEC Regents of the very early 1960s.
I must confess that I quite liked the look of these four Swifts, as the EL single deck styling was subtly different to the contemporary BET design, which had several imitators. Of course. it wasn’t as good as ECW bodied RE, but an interesting contrast. I think the peak at the front, that Chris Hebbron refers to, is a result of the rather high set Swift chassis. A rather neater effect could be achieved on a Bristol RE chassis, with the accompanying benefit of a better mechanical setup!

Nigel Frampton

East Midland Motor Services
1954
Leyland Tiger Cub
Saunders-Roe B44F

This batch was a favourite of mine. The Saro body looked so much better than many contemporary offerings. These were sometimes to be found on East Midland route 99 Chesterfield to Sheffield via Ford and Ridgeway. This picture is in the maroon livery but they looked even better in the chocolate, biscuit, and cream livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

11/01/13 – 05:46

I couldn’t agree more, Les. We didn’t have any at Percy Main, but the Northern General group had quite a number of these. I always thought they looked particularly good in Sunderland District’s dark blue and white livery, they always had the look that they were built up to a standard rather than down to a price

Ronnie Hoye

11/01/13 – 05:46

Seeing the caption to this one has prompted me to look at the East Midland entries in the column on the left. Yes, the chocolate and cream style was distinctive. My only experience of Tiger Cub/Saro buses was with Ribble.
I note some comments about migrating managers who took their old operator’s livery with them. Readers will know that Southampton’s traditional dark red – cherry might be the simplest way of describing it – was supplanted on the Atlanteans with much more cream, and a lighter red. Bill Lewis brought that arrangement with him from Manchester.

Pete Davies

11/01/13 – 08:09

The Saro bodywork was a much more good looking version of the BET specification which spawned thousands of MCW Hermes bodies that took a number of iterations to look only half as attractive.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/01/13 – 15:58

Interesting to note that probably the three largest fleets of these Saro/Tiger Cubs, Ribble, East Midland and NGT all ended up in unrelieved dark red/maroon livery. Even so they still looked smart.

Eric Bawden

12/01/13 – 06:23

Interesting too that, to the best of my knowledge, this type of body was never built on a Reliance.

Chris Barker

12/01/13 – 13:55

Good point, Chris, I cant say that I’ve ever seen these on anything other than a Tiger Cub. According to the bus chassis lists, the NGT group had 31 in total, DCN 843/857 ‘Northern’ and OUP 655/670 ‘Sunderland District’ all delivered in 1954

Ronnie Hoye

12/01/13 – 16:28

One type that did share the body was the SARO Integral which was Gardner powered which appeared around 1953.
If I remember correctly this was unique and the sole example went to Maidstone and District as SO68 registered as RKE 540 see www.flickr.com/
It ended up with Berresford Cheddleton who ran it in a livery that looked very similar to PMT between 1966 and 1968 with the fleet number 28.

Phil Blinkhorn

ps I’ve found a photo in Berresford’s colours www.flicker.com/

13/01/13 – 07:30

…and preserved Guy LUF SARO demonstrator LJW 336!

Ian Thompson

A Guy UF demonstrator was also similarly equipped: www.sct61.org.uk/
Very similar bodies were fitted to BUT trolleybuses for Dunedin and Auckland New Zealand (the nearest we get to a Reliance?) and less similar, less attractive, 33 ft long Daimler Freelines also went to Auckland, the first as a complete build, the rest – 89 in number – ckd. Though looking different due to the panelling I gather the framing was the same.
Chris’s assertion about the lack of the body on the Reliance chassis seems to be correct

Phil Blinkhorn

13/01/13 – 07:58

Here is a shot of LJW 336, the Guy Arab UF demonstrator which was subsequently purchased by Blue Line of Armthorpe. This view shows it in 1969 at which point it had been just a store for a number of years. It seems surprising that it was on the heavier UF rather than the lightweight LUF chassis.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/01/13 – 14:11

Since posting my shot, I have found a number of views of LJW 336 in preservation, which refer to it as an LUF. I took my information from the PSVC fleet history PB4, which lists it as a UF. This is what also appears on the SCT61 site that Phil refers to. However, I have been back to my copy of PB4; this includes the PB4A appendix, which I had overlooked first time round. This corrects the original info and lists it specifically as an LUF.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/01/13 – 17:27

Alan, that makes a lot more sense though the Freeline as hardly a lightweight.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/01/13 – 06:20

LJW 336 was a special Guy Arab UF which was developed as a test bed for lighter construction. The result of this development was the Arab LUF, for which LJW acted as a demonstrator. The only objection to calling it an LUF is that the LUF hadn’t actually been invented when it was built!
I’m not sure about Manchester being the inspiration for Southampton’s new livery. Bill Lewis may well have taken the lighter red with him, but I think I’m right in saying he left Manchester before the Mancunians arrived (I was working under him at the time), and in any case the Southampton scheme doesn’t bear much resemblance to the Mancunian livery. However, I remember Ralph Bennett exhibiting a Bolton Atlantean to the Manchester public before then, and to my eyes the Southampton livery looks like the Bolton scheme with Manchester colours.

Peter Williamson

16/01/13 – 05:08

Peter, you may well be correct about the origins of the Bill Lewis style of Southampton livery. I suspect from what you say it is something of a hybrid: Bolton style so far as ‘what colour is where’ is concerned, but using the brighter Manchester red. It wasn’t just the Transport Department managers who had this idea of taking their old liveries with them: the then City Engineer in Southampton had come from Swindon, and brought that Council’s shade of blue with him.

Pete Davies

15/11/13 – 15:26

During the late 60s/very early 70s I was working in the Birmingham area but visited my folks in Nottingham most weekends. On fine Sunday mornings, I liked to borrow my Dad`s camera and trundle around the likely photo-spots in the city and here is one from that era.
This is parked up in the Ice Stadium car park and has all the clues to suggest it is one of the same batch as R324:

Obviously by then operated by East Midlands Housing Association, it occurred to me that its previous "East Midland" fleet name had been neatly over painted in black with the extra "S" on the end. One letter overlaps into the bay in front, but two into the bay behind.
By now looking a little tired and work-stained, it nevertheless attracted my attention as a handsome machine worthy of recording, sadly not enough to note the date and reg number.

Rob Hancock

31/12/13 – 07:04

Trent had 10 of these Saro Tiger Cubs. painted red below the waist rail white above and looked superb probably the best colour scheme of all. A couple ran in wales for a long time. I saw a photo of some Reliances with a similar body that were exported to the Caribbean.

Ron Stringer

03/07/17 – 16:16

Reading this column on Saunders Roe bodied Tiger Cubs, I was employed by Ribble at Carlisle depot 1963 to late 64 where there were at least 5 such buses including the two allocated to the 603 Bowness on Solway outstation. I occasionally got to drive one on other rural routes plus I was allocated one to operate an evening excursion to Appleby Horse Fair. I liked these buss with their light steering and gearboxes that needed skill to make a clean change, they were rather underpowered for hilly rural routes ie Carlisle to Hesket New Market climbing Warnell Fell, once down itno 2nd gear just above Goose Green pub there was no chance of ever getting back into 3rd before cresting the long drag due to the long delay in waiting for the revs to drop.

Attached is an official Saro photograph of an Auckland Transport Board Royal Tiger with Rivaloy body given to me by Saro after a request for information about the company back in the 1950s when I was a teenage bus enthusiast.

Gerald Walker

05/03/18 – 09:01

I recall Ribble operating Saro bodied Tiger Cubs on services from Colne to Barnoldswick, and occasionally Gisburn, via Foulridge and Whitemoor Reservoir in the early 60s. I used to have holidays at my aunt’s house in the "hamlet" of Hilltop outside Foulridge and I recall them struggling on the narrow twisty climb out of Foulridge to the reservoir

Smudge

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

31/01/19 – 06:00

I note a recent announcement by Oxford Diecast Models that they have produced a Saro bodied model of a prototype in London Transport Country Bus livery. Did LT ever take delivery of such a vehicle because it is the first I have heard of this? Possibly it might have been a demonstrator?

David Revis

01/02/19 – 05:48

David Revis asks if any Saro bodies were made for London Transport. The production summary at the back of the book ‘Saunder-Roe, Builders of the world’s lightest buses’ shows that NO single-deckers were built for London. From 1946-1956 there were 272 for the home market and 1246 for export. Of 376 double deckers built 300 were for LT. I assume that the model is presented as LT just to maximise sales with little regard for reality?

Les Dickinson

01/02/19 – 05:50

In 1953, following the completion of the RF delivery programme, London Transport was looking at future options regarding lightweight single deckers.
‘Buses of London’ by Colin H Curtis published by London Transport tells that three experimental models were obtained which were an Eastern Coachworks bodied Bristol LS5G (PHW 918), a chassisless AEC Monocoach with Park Royal bodywork (NLP 635) and a Saunders-Roe bodied Leyland Tiger Cub (PTE 592).
The text reads: ‘All were allocated to Reigate garage for extensive tests on route 447 and 711. At the end of the test no decision was made and the vehicles were returned to their owners’.

David Slater

01/02/19 – 05:51

Demonstrators indeed. See the following from the Oxford Diecast website: www.modelbuszone.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

02/02/19 – 06:17

Chris H, David S, Les D: Thank you all for your responses. The thought did go through my mind that Oxford might have produced the model by way of artistic licence as Les inferred. It was a relief to learn that Oxford was completely ethical and had obviously done their homework.

David Revis

02/02/19 – 06:33

Here is a photo of PTE 592 whilst in service with London Transport on the 447 route.

Peter

Copyright David Lennard

Glasgow Corporation
1963
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H44/34F

Sorting through my photos recently I came across this shot taken I think in the late sixties in Glasgow. Whilst at a quick glance it looks like any of the Corporations large fleet of Atlanteans. But, a closer look shows it to be D268 their one and only Daimler Fleetline, delivered in 1963 with a body identical to the previously mentioned Atlanteans some of which were delivered with Albion badges. I have a slightly blurred photo of one of these if anyone is interested. Why Glasgow never bought any other Fleetlines in view of the number of CVG,s they had previously bought I do not know, perhaps someone may be able to enlighten me. I vaguely remember taking the photo somewhere near the Botanic Gardens I think, again I am ready to be corrected.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

09/01/13 – 05:42

I’d heard of Kelvingrove, but Kelvindale is a new destination to me.

Jim Hepburn

09/01/13 – 16:01

Information about Kelvindale can be found at //en.wikipedia.org/. or at //kelvindale.org.uk/

Ken Jones

10/01/13 – 17:50

Looking at this photo now makes me realise the Glasgow Alexander body design was a true classic and probably the most successful of the first generation rear engined body designs. In fact it doesn’t look to dated when set against the modern offerings on the low-floor chassis of today.

Philip Halstead

11/01/13 – 08:06

Somehow, the low height version of the body looked even better and, yes, it wouldn’t look out of place on today’s streets. Other 1960s bodies which would still look up to date would be the Mancunian, especially the 33ft version and the 1968 Park Royal body on Sheffield’s Atlanteans.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/01/13 – 07:37

Phil: I couldn’t agree more about the Mancunian; I was impressed with it from the outset. Although many people deride its squareness, I find it stylish, of its time, and yet timeless. Manchester took the bull by the horns by creating a brand new livery that was totally suited to the body.

Alan Murray-Rust

14/01/13 – 13:17

About Philip H’s comments and the Fleetlines….Have to agree that in design terms, they are probably ‘up there’ with the true classics of their time….I remember the first time I saw a NWRCC example in Mersey Square and standing fixated for what might have been fifteen minutes at just how futuristic they looked compared to everything else around them….But a question to those of you who are far more technical and knowledgeable than myself….Were the windscreens on these Fleetlines the same piece/part/whatever as the those on the NWRCC Alexander bodied PSU3/4R Leopards?? And was the upstairs front windscreen on the Fleetline the same piece/part/whatever as the rear window on the PSU3’s?? I’ve often wondered whether the size/shape of what at the time were fairly huge single pieces of shaped glass just Alexander’s ‘brand design’ or whether it was actually a very clever innovation by them to reduce component/stock requirements in their manufacturing process which just happened to turn out right aesthetically….

Stuart C

14/01/13 – 15:32

Stuart C the answer to both your windscreen questions id yes. Economy sometimes can be translated into a timeless design!!

Phil Blinkhorn

14/01/13 – 15:59

I agree entirely with Philip on the timelessness of this Alexander design. Modern double deck body builders seem to compete with each other to accommodate the greatest area of frontal glass. Replacement costs must be astronomic.

Roger Cox

12/03/13 – 06:33

Stuart, both screens were used on the Alexander Y Type single decker – in fact, the entire GRP moulding of the upper dome was used!

Anon

19/08/13 – 07:20

The bus was based at Maryhill garage from 1964 approx where I was a driver and have driven the Daimler many times on service route 3 which ran from Mosspark to Kelvindale. The Daimler was not first choice of the drivers the doors were operated by way of the gear stick. You had the normal gear change with an additional slot for opening and closing the doors the bus had to be at a halt before you could open or close the doors resulting in late running, hope this helps.

Frank

20/08/13 – 06:32

Truly understand where you are coming from Frank.
When I was driving at Swinton for LUT, we had 2 of the first batch of dual doored Daimler Fleetline 33 footers, nicknamed ‘Jumbo’s. They were fleet nos 360 & 361, ATC 273 & 4 J. Although there was no agreement in place with the TGWU for their use as one-manners, Management was adamant and Supervisory staff were were made to frequently check that they were being used, even in crew operation, as dual door buses, in what they saw/said was their ‘pending’ one man introduction. The problem with them, was the Doors ! The front door was air pedal controlled, but the REAR door was electronic, via a sixth gear position on the selector. The gear selector would not move until the rear doors, which had an electrical sensor, confirmed that they had closed. Well, even on the moderately timed 38 service, where they were allocated, this slow & time consuming operation meant that time was lost at every stop. I tried with my guard one day to use a ticket roll to tape off the centre door on a very busy trip (17:20 hours) out of Manchester one evening, but was caught by a ‘checker’ and reported for not using the centre doors. I think I had the last laugh however, as I found that by pushing the ‘Master switch’ to off, the centre doors closed automatically and the gear selector was released ! – but this trick needed two hands to perform.
Happy Days

Mike Norris

23/09/13 – 06:00

Diesel Dave thanks for your photo of Daimler D268 you are correct the location is at Botanic Gardens at the intersection of Byres Road and the Great Western Road hidden by the tanker to the left of Daimler D268 is the rest room then used by bus staff for meal breaks.

Frank

24/09/13 – 09:28

On the subject of modern classics I would add the Leeds Roe dual door Fleetlines and Atlanteans to the list together with the ECW body for Olympians and VRs. Anyone any thoughts on these or others to add to the list.

Chris Hough

09/01/17 – 06:49

I used to be a regular schoolboy user of the 3 route. I remember how exciting it was when on one morning at the Kelvindale terminus an "Atlantean" turned out to be Fleetline D268. There never seemed to be as many 3s as 20s or 58s on Great Western Road. I recall once literally praying that a 3 would come. And it did, very promptly, except it wasn’t going to Kelvindale, it was a short working to Botanic Gardens. I’ve often wondered how often these short workings occurred, as I can’t definitely recall any others. Possibly Frank, or someone else, might know.

Moray

04/02/17 – 09:30

I worked as a conductor at Parkhead Garage during 1972/73, and vehicles were often "turned short", usually due to late running, crew shortage, or vehicle breakdown (by the time a replacement vehicle was put on the road part of the journey would be "lost"). The timetables only listed the theoretical departures from the termini concerned, although estimated journey times between principal stops were also given. However, these referred to rush hour conditions, and the actual running times were often less than those printed in the timetable book. We had a 4 bus allocation on service 38, where the bulk of the journeys were shared between Gartcraig and Newlands. On several occasions when heading back into the city from either Rouken Glen or Clarkston, we would be stopped by the timekeeper at Shawlands Cross and told to change the destination to show "Alexandra Park" instead of Riddrie or Millerston. Our last stop would be outside the Corporation crew "bothy" at St Rollox bowling green in Alexandra Parade, where we should have been relieved by another crew. However, if any of the crew were not available, we would then be instructed to run to Parkhead Garage. We were expected to run there in service along Edinburgh Road, but the reality was (despite the rule book) that Glasgow Corporation buses only picked up on garage journeys when travelling along the recognised route. As one of the bigger garages we had a few duties where we went out to assist on other services, and we would end up on 41s, 64s, and hospital specials on services 11 and 16 Sundays. There were also scheduled crew duplicates on OMO service 55 at peak hours, where we ran back to Parkhead Garage from Barmulloch, showing service 55 all the way eastwards along Duke Street. Great days for people like myself who liked a bit of variety at work. If we actually managed to get 4 buses out on the 38s all day it was a bonus. In later life I did 11 years as a driver for one of the large companies in a rural area, but it was nothing like the old Corporation.

John W

28/03/19 – 07:19

Two years on from the above, but in 1973-4 I lived right by the Botanic Gardens short turning point, which coming from the city was left into Kersland Street, where there was an alighting stop, then first right into Vinicombe Street, and back up Byers Road and back to town. I recall that some 58s, on Saturdays only, were timetabled to do this, other occasions were random. The side streets were lined with parked cars both sides, but the buses squeezed past any oncoming car.
One evening peak an Atlantean had unloaded, and turned right into Vinicombe Street, only to come nose-to-nose with, of all things, an Alexander (Midland) PD3 coming the other way, doing a short inward working from Great Western Road and turning by the same streets to go back out of town again. This was an unusual working but happened occasionally. Unfortunately I couldn’t hang around to see how they sorted it out.

Bill

14/05/19 – 06:22

Working at Partick Garage 1969 til 1974 I passed my test at Knights Wood Garage when I turned 21. I drove Leyland Atlanteans including LA1 which is now in the museum. My first driving job was in the evening rush hour on an AEC with neither power nor self centring steering. Today’s drivers would struggle with these vehicles. I am now back in my home city of Nottingham.

Melvyn Hill