OK Motor Services
1959
AEC Reliance 2MU3RA
Plaxton C41F

129 DPT is an AEC Reliance, 2MU3RA variety, with Plaxton C41F body. She was new to OK Motor Services in 1959 and is seen in the Alton Bus Rally on 18 July 2010. This event is organised as part of the Mid Hants Railway (Watercress Line) programme and, weather permitting – it has been known to be washed out! – is on the third Sunday in July.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

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15/06/14 – 17:54

OK had a very interesting fleet of new, and what are now called ‘Pre owned’ vehicles. They had several routes, mainly in the Bishop Auckland area, and one into Newcastle, but none of them were numbered. The original livery of two shades of red plus cream, all outlined, black wings and gold lettering, must have taken an age to apply, but the result was stunning. Rather than a bog standard one-size fits all approach, the livery was modified from one vehicle type to another, as a result it looked good on most vehicles. It always suited the ex London RTL’s and the Southdown Queen Mary’s. After deregulation, OK set out on an expansion programme, they opened a depot in Peterlee, and the Newcastle depot, which up to then had been purely coach/contract and private hire, also took on some service routes. Presumably, to save time and money, as the fleet grew the livery was simplified and went through several changes. Eventually the company were bought out by the Go Ahead Group ‘Northern General as was’ and the name has gone into suspended animation.

Ronnie Hoye

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16/06/14 – 06:35

Thanks for your observations, Ronnie. At least, Go Ahead do allow their local managers some leeway in terms of activity and livery, not like certain other groups most of us would prefer not to mention!

Pete Davies

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16/06/14 – 06:36

As most people know, the Panorama was developed at the behest of Sheffield United Tours. There were only six of the original style, based on the Venturer, and delivered to SUT. This is, strictly speaking, the first production model but what is strange is the side embellishment. The ribbed side and the wings were specifically SUT things which have ventured onto the standard model for everyone.

David Oldfield

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17/06/14 – 13:42

David, I think that you meant to say that the original Panorama was based on the Consort, not the Venturer, which had already been discontinued two years before the first Panoramas for SUT. Incidentally, the Panorama body went through at least four distinct variations before the so-called (Ogle designed) "Panorama I" as modelled by OOC in 1/76 scale. There was the original Consort-based version, followed by the variant shown in this photograph (with the rather odd little radius in the side window line at the rear end) produced in 1959-60. Then came the 1961-62 model with improved frontal and side treatment but still with that dreadful rear window arrangement (the later 36ft versions of this variant also had a drooping waist-rail at the rear end which didn’t improve things), and then the 1963-64 variant which kept the good bits but eliminated the "droop" and the nasty rear window. Having come up with a truly classic design by a series of evolutionary improvements, Plaxton then decided to throw it away and start again with the Panorama I (and its lightweight chassis equivalent with less brightwork, the "Panorama II". They were very much an acquired taste.Have professional designers ever done a better job at anything than those who really understand the bus industry? I can’t think of a single example!
I see that Oxford Diecast is planning to produce a 1/76 scale model of something it describes as a "Panorama I". The teaser drawing that they are using on their website suggests that it will in fact be of the 1963-64 version. Despite their mistake in naming the model I await it with bated breath. My fear is that they might spoil it by using the wrong colours in the liveries. I waited for years for a model of a Ribble all-Leyland Royal Tiger coach, but when Oxford finally came up with one the colours (particularly the red) were completely wrong. I am now waiting for a National Lottery win so that I can have somebody repaint one for me. If I win the Jackpot I’ll have somebody build a replica of the real thing, but I digress….

Neville Mercer

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18/06/14 – 10:59

Correct, as ever, Neville. A senior moment and fixation on the verb to venture. They were, of course, based on the Consort.

To be fair, the Panorama II was a logical development of the 1963/4 version and not a bad design – simple and restrained. I did not object to the Panorama I but see what all its critics mean. Plaxton did not get it back until the Elite II and Elite III – only to throw it all away with the Paramounts. […..and as for what came next …..]

David Oldfield

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19/06/14 – 07:53

Sheffield United – so that’s where I’d seen this detailing before! Thanks for reminding me!

Pete Davies

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21/06/14 – 06:27

In the past I have found to my cost that the owner of this particular vehicle objects to the idea that the Panorama was "based on" anything. Leaving aside questions of chickens and eggs, SUT’s original pre-production Panoramas had the same front and rear ends as the Consort II with a completely different body shell in between. Similarly this version has the same front and rear as the Consort IV with a different shell in between. It’s the difference in height between the Panorama’s waistrail and the bottom of the Consort IV rear window that necessitated the "kick-up" at the rear. (The SUT-derived side detailing was an optional extra.) However, the 1961-2 version really did share a body shell with its poor relation, the Embassy, which is why the kick-up was no longer necessary.
The Ogle version which we think of as Panorama I was simply called Panorama for the first two years of its life, while the future Panorama II was styled as either Embassy IV, Val or Vam depending on chassis type. I never really liked the Panorama I except on the Bedford VAL chassis, where the extra bling under the first side window lined up perfectly with the twin steering axles. To me the most pleasing Plaxton body of that generation was the 32-foot Vam/Panorama II.

Peter Williamson

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21/06/14 – 08:53

No, Peter, the body is exactly the same – it is only the size and pitch of the windows in between that differs, along with the provision of forced air ventilation. I would tend to agree with you about the 32′ Vam/Panorama II.

David Oldfield

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15/08/14 – 09:23

As the owner of 129 DPT may I add some thoughts to the thread? Peter Williamson and I certainly exchanged some views several years ago on whether the vehicle was properly a Panorama (or just a reworked Consort) and I pointed out that Plaxton obviously thought it was a Panorama because they invited it to their centenary celebration as the oldest surviving example. I’m unclear what Peter ‘found to his cost’. We just saw things differently and there is nothing wrong in that – anyway it was a long time ago now. So far as lineage goes it is true that the prototype was little more than a Consort with long windows but by the time production had started the design had evolved considerably. The Consorts of the late 50s/early 60s adopted many of the design features introduced on the early Panoramas including wraparound windscreens and dished grills so were they really Panoramas with short windows? To pick up on other comments, the original SUT six were really pre-production models, being built individually rather than on a production line. Correspondence I have from Plaxton at the time of their centenary makes this clear. The SUT side mouldings were offered as an option on all orders and even appeared on later Consort-bodied SBs.

John Boston

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16/10/15 – 16:22

I’m keen to trace the present owner of OK Motors 129 DPT as my father saved it from being scrapped it was due to appear at Kettering Steam Rally but for some reason it never did, my father still has some paperwork regarding the coach thanks to anyone that can help.

Adrian

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18/10/15 – 10:00

This vehicle has it’s own thread at //www.sct61.org.uk/ok129dptb It might be worth a post there as well there is a message thread below the picture dating from 20 July 2015 through to 5 Aug 2015.

John Lomas

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20/10/15 – 08:59

I believe 128 DPT was with Pilgrim tours of Lincoln for a while in the 1970s

Steve Milner

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03/11/15 – 06:41

Adrian, John and Steve. 129 DPT is still alive and well.
After being off the road for a year or two (seized water pump which took a long time to find a replacement for and then a full clutch rebuild) we have been to a number of rallies this year and taken part in a few free bus services, coping well with full loads.
The non-appearance at Kettering was unfortunate. We were all set to go (picnic prepared the night before and in the fridge etc) but unfortunately I was very ill overnight (possibly an allergic reaction to something) and I didn’t feel it safe to drive, particularly as I live in Berkshire so it is a bit of a journey.
Steve, you refer to 128 DPT. Is this a typo? I don’t think 129 DPT can have been with Pilgrim Tours in the 70s. The PSV Circle OK fleet history records the vehicle as moving from Howes to OK ownership in 8/75 and being sold out of the OK fleet in 11/81. What I do have is a rear photo in OK livery but with sign writing for M&K Walker. Can anyone shed any light on this? I can find nothing about this name on the internet.

John Boston

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03/11/15 – 14:59

128 DPT was a similar Reliance/Plaxton new to Graham Brothers of Winlaton Mill (one of the ‘Primrose’ partners); 130 DPT was new to Bissett of Ryton (the other ‘Primrose’ partner at the time).
128-30 DPT had consecutive Plaxton body numbers, so it would appear that, certainly as far as the bodies were concerned, this was a joint order.

John B mentions ‘Howes’ above, but, to those unfamiliar with OK’s history, their involvement will be unclear. Howe of Spennymoor and Emmerson of Bishop Auckland both used the fleetname ‘OK’, but in respect of Howe, it may have been only on the service buses, which were used on the Bishop Auckland to Newcastle route (joint with Emmerson) – Emmerson (very much the larger of the two concerns) used the ‘OK’ name for all purposes. Howe’s livery was noticeably different from that of Emmerson. In due course (probably 1975, as implied by John B), Emmerson acquired Howe and vehicles eventually received Emmerson livery, but the Spennymoor base was retained.
129 DPT was indeed new to Howe rather than Emmerson.

David Call

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04/11/15 – 06:39

Thanks David. I was born and bred in Middlesex and my knowledge of OK is based mainly on 2 publications – the PSV Circle History of OK Motor Services Ltd (2PA20, 1998) and A History of OK Motor Services by David Holding (Bus Enthusiast Publishing Co 2007 ISBN978-0-946265-39-8). If these notes are wrong it is my fault, please let me know. To expand slightly on David’s information in 1928 3 pre-existing operators (Emmerson, Evenwood; Howe, Spennymoor and Blenkisop, West Carnforth) set up a joint co-operative service Bishop Auckland – Newcastle under the OK title. Blenkisop soon dropped out. So initially OK Motor Services was a trading name of the 2 remaining partners. The name was soon adopted by Emmerson for all of his vehicles. I’m not sure about Howe although there are photos of OK-liveried coaches in the Howe fleet in the 1930s. In May 1959 OK Motor Services Ltd was formed and it bought out several local firms including Howe of Spennymoor in 1968. I suppose it must have formally taken over Emmerson (trading as OK) as well, otherwise I think all of his vehicles would have to have operated ‘on hire’ to OK MS Ltd.

John Boston

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05/11/15 – 16:53

Operator liveries can make or break the looks of any coach. The SUT livery was perfect for all Plaxton models that they had including those with side polished strips. They looked dignified but I am slightly biased having driven for them for about ten years.

Brian Lamb

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13/12/16 – 16:24

Sadly old age and arthritis have caught up with me and I have reluctantly taken the decision to pass 129 DPT on to a new home. After a diversion via Cobus she will be joining the heritage fleet of Go Goodwins Coaches.

John Boston

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05/04/17 – 07:50

192 DPT has now been sold by Goodwins, its gone to Dan Harte t/a Ibiza Yoga Ltd with a UK address in Paddington London. Mr Hart intends to use the AEC for touring between London & Ibiza twice a year.

John Wakefield

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24/05/17 – 07:15

192 DPT is on eBay for sale £12000 starting bid. Beautiful coach

Mr Anon (Probably the chap selling it)

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09/01/19 – 06:35

129 DPT was our family coach , I grew up with this coach in our back garden for years my dad saved her from the scrap heap . M&K Walker are Margaret and Ken Walker of Retford. We were away at shows most weekends and we’re great we still attend them now in fact I own a 4” traction engine not only did we own 129 we also owned her blue sister excellent memories oF 129 DPT

Mr Anon

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12/01/19 – 07:16

This is still owned by Dan Harte but is static at the moment in Ibiza as Airbnb accommodation for his Yoga enterprise. He says he does intend to bring it back to UK in May and then use it to attend ‘festivals’ I assume as a caravan!
These two pics of it were taken in Ibiza October 2018

John Wakefield

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25/01/21 – 07:08

Does anyone know if this coach has found her way back to the UK and is still on the road?

Paul

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27/01/21 – 06:20

Looks like it came back in late 2019 this link to Dan Harte’s Facebook page www.facebook.com/photo

Mr Anon

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27/01/21 – 16:04

Taxed till May 2021 (DVLA) and insured (ASKMID)

John Wakefield

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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13/07/22 – 06:27

This coach is back in the UK. I have purchased it to keep my other Panorama (Bedford Val) company. My aim is to remove the beds and refit the seats to restore it to it’s proper coach configuration.
Any one who does have any paper work for her, I would love to have it.

Barker Bus

Moor-Dale Coaches
1949
Leyland Titan PD2
Metro Cammell H30/26R

Moor-Dale coaches were based in Longbenton to the North East of Newcastle. I don’t know if it was a takeover or a merger, but they became Moor-Dale Curtis. The fleet was moved to the much larger Curtis depot in Dudley, a former mining village in Northumberland which about seven miles to the north of Newcastle, they later bought out Rochester and Marshall who were based in Great Whittington Northumberland, all vehicles were painted in Moor-Dale livery, and the Curtis and R&M names were dropped and the company became the More-Dale Group. They are now part of a group which among others includes – Hylton Castle Coaches of Sunderland, Classic Coaches of Annfield Plain, Moor-Dale and Primrose. For may years they did. and to the best of my knowledge still do provide the Newcastle United team coach, by coach I mean the vehicle the players ride in, not the person who shows them how to pretend they’ve been hurt. Apart from a couple of executive vehicle ‘usually Volvo’ the coach fleet was usually made of Plaxton bodied Bedford’s, I don’t know if they were bought or leased, but about a third of the fleet changed every year, and they only seemed to have them for about three years at a time. The livery was very a very patriotic red white and blue, but the layout seemed to change with every new intake of vehicles. Double deck works and school contract vehicles were a different matter. I can remember an ex Southdown Leyland Titan ’Park Royal I think’ the name was changed, but it was never repainted, but generally they were painted red, with blue centre band and blue mudguards. The two seen here are KGU 60, an H30/26R Metro Cammell bodied ex London Transport RTL from 1949; RTL610, and SFC 425; a former City of Oxford H30/26R Weymann bodied AEC Regent III, from 1952 numbered 425, they also had at leas one Ribble Leyland White Lady. One thing I could never understand, more or less on the doorstep, they had the Corporation fleets on Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland, they also had the NGT group and United, but all their D/D’s seemed to come from well outside the area.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

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12/06/14 – 08:37

Now owned by ARRIVA if part of the same group that owns the others.

Stephen Howarth

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12/06/14 – 14:24

Curtis was purchased by Northumbria in the late 1980s along with Hunters of Seaton Delaval. For a time Curtis, Moor-Dale and Hunters buses were kept at the site at Dudley.
According to Wikipedia, Moor-Dale was sold back to its original directors at the time Northumbria was bought by British Bus (1994): British Bus eventually merged into Arriva. However the present registered office of Moor-Dale is the same as that of Arriva, so either the company name never in fact left the Northumbria – British Bus – Arriva consolidation chain or in the last 20 years was brought back in.

Paul Robson

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12/06/14 – 14:58

I often used to travel to Newcastle from the Lakes in the 1970s to visit relatives and there were always plenty of Moor-Dale coaches heading in the opposite direction, all of them new as you mention Ronnie. There was also a steady stream of colourful coaches from other North-East operators during the season, especially Beeline (Goldcase Group) and T&WPTE (still branded as Armstrong-Galley) as well as Primrose (Bisset), H E Craiggs, and Priory. The only Moor-dale decker I recall was NFV 316, an ex Blackpool PD2/27, which I saw in Newcastle in 1977.

Mike Morton

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13/06/14 – 11:34

Among other D/D’s bought by Moor-Dale that are relevant to this site were
DUF 154; 1950 Northern Counties Leyland TD4
EUF 176; Park Royal? Leyland ??? both Ex Southdown, and both possibly pre war rebodies. Neither were ever repainted in Moor-Dale livery.
LUC 355; another 1950 former LT MCW bodied RTL, this was RTL 980.
DCK 209; 1950 FCL27/22RD East Lancs bodied Leyland PD2/37. Former Ribble White Lady 1238, I think it was one of a pair.
WDC 76; 1959 H33/28R MCW Oron bodied Leyland PD2/37, new to Brighton Corporation.
They the above were all used as School and works contract vehicles, but after deregulation, and presumably after they had been bought out by Northumbria, Moor-Dale started stage carriage services, and vehiles were bought from many sources to run the services

Ronnie Hoye

Mid-Wales Motorways
1960
Bedford SB3
Yeats  C41F

Mid-Wales Motorways was a medium sized independent operator working in the Welsh Marches. Based at Newtown, the fleet operated some lengthy routes, some of which crossed the border into England. Here we see RCT 2, a Bedford SB3 with Yeates bodywork, which was new to Delaine, Bourne, but spent most of it’s life with Mid Wales.  A similar vehicle from the fleet of Worthern Motors is seen in the background, and between them is another Mid Wales Bedford, a VAS5/Duple Vista 25 which is slightly too modern for this site!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

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08/06/14 – 09:55

Photographed in Montgomery; the view virtually unchanged from this picture last time I was there (2010)

Michael Keeley

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09/06/14 – 11:13

My book on North Wales independents was originally supposed to include Montgomeryshire, but I seriously over-ran on the page count and so had to leave it for another day. However, I’d already collected a lot of pictures from the area, many of them taken in Montgomery itself. One thing I noticed is that the chimneys in the photographs were always smoking away merrily regardless of the levels of sunlight! Is Montgomery known for being a particularly cold place as well as an undeniably scenic one? The Worthen Motorways SB/Yeates in the background appears "full frame" in my book on Shropshire independents, but I’ve never been sure whose colour scheme it wears. Worthen didn’t really have one at this point in its existence – the vehicles inherited from MWM at the beginning merely had their cream areas overpainted in red.

Neville Mercer

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10/06/14 – 08:06

When the gentleman who took the photo says it was 1960 I have to believe him but what is that green car to the left of the picture. At first I thought Humber Sceptre but the Arrow version didn’t appear until 1967, then I thought HB Viva but they too didn’t fall off the Vauxhall lines until about 67/8 so it can’t be one of them?

Orla Nutting

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10/06/14 – 08:11

If it helps.

Peter

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10/06/14 – 16:00

Yes it did, thanks. It’s a ‘mark 2’ (i.e. Rootes Arrow design) Humber Sceptre so the picture dates from 1967 or later.

Orla Nutting

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10/06/14 – 16:00

I think "1960" relates to the year of the vehicle, not when it was photographed, Orla. Certainly, RCT3, the preserved Delaine Titan, is listed as a 1960 vehicle. (No Delaine vehicles in the list on the left – I’ll have to dig out some of mine, unless one or other among the readership gets in first!) It looks to me as if the offending car’s registration plate is black on yellow, so the view must have been captured in or after 1967.

Pete Davies

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10/06/14 – 16:01

It’s definitely a Humber Sceptre, with its silver plate at the back and vinyl roof. My next-door neighbour had one, even in this colour! Mmm, stylish!

Chris Hebbron

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10/06/14 – 16:02

Yet another misinterpretation of a photo heading, the second within 2 days.
Orla, I fear the 1960 refers to the build date of the Bedford, not the date of the photo.
Perhaps Peter might wish to consider altering the layout of the heading for future photos?

Eric Bawden

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10/06/14 – 16:02

It appears to be a "yellow" rear number plate.
As far as I know this type of plate wasn’t issued on new cars until 1968 / 1969.

David R

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10/06/14 – 16:03

I have to concur with Orla, the Mk II Sceptre (which this is) with 1725cc engine, first appeared in 1965.I had this exact colour MkII Sceptre as a Company car in 1971/2. Further identification is the ‘Scepre’ motif on the lower near-side vynl roof.

Nigel Edwards

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11/06/14 – 07:53

I think it means the RCT2 dates from 1960 – the VAS behind is obviously much newer than that, I think that Duple body design came out about 1967 or 8

Michael Keeley

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11/06/14 – 07:54

The historical Delaine fleet list may be found here:- www.delainebuses.co.uk/Fleet/Fleet%20List%201919-2014.pdf  This vehicle is listed as fleet no.49, registration No. RCT 2, a Bedford SB3, chassis no.78234 with Yeates Europa C41F body, new 05/1960, sold 06/1966 to Price of Wrockwardine Wood, Telford. Insofar as Peter’s headings are concerned, in response to Eric’s suggestion, I have always taken the date quoted to be that of the depicted vehicle when new, not the date of the photograph. This is surely fundamental to the substance of each picture submitted, and I, personally, would not wish that to change. The photograph date can always be stated in the accompanying text if this is deemed vital.

Roger Cox

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11/06/14 – 07:55

The coach would be from around 1960. I drove for A L Moore of Sleaford whose premises were only around 20 miles from Delaine and we had a very similar coach registered MCT 440 which dated from 1957. Both were registered in Sleaford, Lincs. We also had a later style Europa, PTL 850 which was new in 1961. Both were SB3 petrol engine and very smooth, superb vehicles to drive. Yeates were different, but I preferred them to mainstream body styles (except early Panoramas, perhaps).

Richard Hill

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11/06/14 – 07:56

I am surprised at the direction this discussion has taken. I did not specify when the photo was taken, but it was actually around 1969 or 1970.

Don McKeown

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11/06/14 – 09:18

Don may well be surprised at the direction this discussion has taken, but for an OBP discussion to go off at a tangent is completely normal!
I’m taking a bit of a risk here, trying to tell someone when they took their photo, but here goes. Don himself reckons that the Bedford VAS visible in the shot is too modern for this site, so that implies a 1970+ vehicle, with photograph date to match. The said vehicle actually looks to be one of MEP889/90K, new to Mid-Wales in 7/72 – so there’s an earliest date for the shot.

David Call

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11/06/14 – 11:30

David is quite correct. That is a 1972 Duple front. Is the main player an SB1 or an SB3 though? (see above/Roger’s post)

David Oldfield

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11/06/14 – 11:31

Roger, can I clarify my suggestion about photo headings.
I agree entirely with you about the build date of the subject vehicle being fundamental, and like yourself I have always taken the date to refer to when the vehicle was new, but we have the situation where comments have been generated within a couple of days of one another on two photos because the commentators have misinterpreted the build date as the photo date.
My suggestion was merely to re-arrange the layout of the photo heading so it becomes less likely that the date is taken in the wrong text.
Can I also make a correction to Nigel’s comment about the Humber Sceptre in the photo. It is actually a Mk. III model produced between 1967 and 1976. The Mk II was an upgrade of the Mk I and was produced between 1965-7.

Eric Bawden

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11/06/14 – 15:02

…..but like many cars of that era, the Sceptre was a downgrade of the traditional cars of that marque which came before it!

David Oldfield

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12/06/14 – 08:28

The other cars are a Series V Humber Super Snipe upper side veiw and the rear window of a Rover P6.

Roger Broughton

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12/06/14 – 08:29

Off-topic: this was a version, I think of the Hillman Hunter, produced at the same time as the Super Minx family as a more lightweight alternative to that rather underpowered but much liked tank. On-topic: As with buses, when you start to cut down on the weight, other things go as well. Off-topic Eventually the Hunter was badge engineered: the Sunbeam Rapier for example was a giant coupe of rather bizarre appearance.
On-topic: were petrol engines at all in demand for coaches, post Suez?

Joe

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12/06/14 – 08:31

Puthering – that’s what the chimneys are doing, Neville. I think its an East Midlands dialect word for when chimneys are throwing-out smoke before the fire gets going. Well, I know what it means – I’m just not that certain its an East Midlands word.
And – sorry to drift off thread here – David R (10/6) mentions the yellow rear number plate. Are the old white/silver-on-black plates now illegal for new vehicles – LT continued with them into the TH/B15 era, well after everybody else had moved over (did they get special dispensation?).

Philip Rushworth

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12/06/14 – 10:06

The petrol Bedford SB3 was very popular until about 1962. From then on, the diesel gradually took over and was universal by 1967. Salopia continued against the trend to buy SB3s but were also alone in buying the VAM3 where everyone else bought the VAM5 with Bedford 330 diesel or VAM14 with Leyland O.400. As far as I know, Bedford were the last manufacturer to offer petrol. Ford had offered petrol but had more or less standardised on diesel long before Bedford.

David Oldfield

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12/06/14 – 10:07

Old-style plates can only legally be carried by vehicles registered before 1st January 1973.
Love the word ‘puthering’, wherever it came from.

Chris Hebbron

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12/06/14 – 14:18

OK, so it should be apparent by now that I spent more time in the ’60’s looking at cars rather than coaches (in fact I never did, being much more a Corporation bus follower).
I loosely termed the Humber Sceptre a ‘mark 2’ because the I wasn’t sure if the 1965 facelift and the then introduction of the 1725cc 5 bearing crankshaft engine represented a formal change of mark on the Sceptre (though it did on the contemporary Hillman Minx and perhaps the Super Minx on which the Sceptre was based, all having previously had a 3 bearing crankshaft in their 1600cc (approx) engines).
The Hillman Hunter replaced the Super Minx in 1966. The Singer Vogue took the new Arrow design at the same time whilst the Sceptre based on the Hunter shell was introduced early in 1967 along with a Minx and Singer Gazelle bearing a 1500cc (approx) engine. The fastback Rapier followed shortly after this.
Yes it illegal to have black and white plates on a new car. Until recently it was only permitted on vehicles regd before 1 Jan 73 but that may have moved on a year now with the change in tax exempt deadline. I too don’t know how LT managed to keep black and white plates on new vehicles well in the ’70’s.
Back to the coaches, for what it’s worth, if there is a date in a picture heading heading I prefer it to apply to the date it portrays rather than than of the vehicle(s).

Orla Nutting

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12/06/14 – 14:19

Almost all Ripponden & District wagons carried silver on black number plates until the company ceased trading – only a few years ago. I seem to recall once reading somewhere that the requirement for reflective plates did not apply to certain heavy vehicle classes, but that it was not a well published fact and that most operators who were not in the know just assumed they had to fit them. However, try as I might,I can’t find any reference to this anywhere now. Surely the mighty LT wouldn’t do anything illegal would they?

John Stringer

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12/06/14 – 14:19

The legislation regarding compulsory reflective plates after 1st January 1973 only applied to cars and not buses/lorries. That’s how LT got round it.
Parcel carrier (and form PSV operator) Ripponden and District continued to use black & white plates on their lorries for years after the 1st Jan regs. came in.
I’ll stick my neck out here and go so far as to say black & white plates on lorries and buses was still legal till the change to the current format (51) in 2001, though I stand to be corrected on that point.

Eric Bawden

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12/06/14 – 14:20

It is my recollection that, initially at least, the requirement to display reflective number plates did not apply to heavier vehicles – perhaps the logic was that they were big enough for people to see them anyway!
After trawling the net for a while I have managed to unearth the following, which appeared in ‘Commercial Motor’ dated 13 December 1980.
‘Reflective number plates must be fitted to vehicles first registered on or after January 1, 1973, except vehicles over three tons unladen, which are fitted with reflective rear markings, stage carriages, pedestrian controlled vehicles, work trucks, agricultural machines and trailers’.
I haven’t been able to find any reference to any changes in the legislation since 1980.

David Call

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12/06/14 – 17:32

I absolutely cannot agree with Orla re the nature of the date in the picture heading. Surely it is the vehicle itself that we are primarily discussing in each OBP entry, however interesting the surroundings or background story. The picture date and other details can always be stated in the accompanying text if required. The adoption of the photo date in each title rather than the vehicle construction date is going to lead to some significant misunderstandings and inconsistencies. In any case, what date would one show if the picture date were unknown?

Roger Cox

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13/06/14 – 11:31

I see pictures like this as a tableau of days gone within which setting the passenger vehicle(s) hold the most interest but form only a part of the historical record. It is as such that I give pre-eminence to the importance of the date of the picture and then within that the age of the buildings, the vehicles, the fashions etc. I’m not hung up on it and of course there are times when no date is known and there is pleasure into trying to establish that point in history by reference to the content.

Orla Nutting

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14/06/14 – 08:18

To posters concerned, thanks for the clarification re. number-plates. And thanks, Orla, for sorting-out some Rootes Group badge engineering which has troubled me for some time – I assume that in due course the Arrow Hillman Minx became a 1500cc Hunter. And (sorry to drift off again): does anybody know why yellow was chosen as the colour for the rear plate? red would have seemed to be more logical – unless, I suppose, if the letters had to be black, they wouldn’t show up well on red in day-time . . .

Philip Rushworth

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15/06/14 – 08:02

Many thanks Don for this wonderful image, I still visit Mongomery on a regular basis and as mentioned this view has not changed it is well worth a visit, RCT 2 can be seen outside the Chequers public house (sadly now converted into a French themed overpriced restaurant) at the side of the town hall in the rear of the photo is Bonner and son a time warp hardware store where "four candles" can be purchased, at the top of the square can be found Castle street garage D R Pugh and Son a typical rural garage, Ron Pugh (the proprietor) my cousin was a well known local character who drove part time for Mid Wales Motorways he was also a volunteer fireman in the village I remember him whizzing past in one of Mid wales many Bedford OBs sounding the horn on an afternoon school run, he also drove a Morris J type van based mini bus I am unable to locate a photo of this vehicle, and of all the vehicles mentioned in the comments, these and more could be found behind the garage and in a field further down the road, a huge array of stored cars some of which ended up restored this image brings back many happy visits to Montgomery and of course watching Mid Wales vehicles at work.

Mark Mc Alister

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15/06/14 – 11:19

Philip, black letters on red plates were tried in Ireland in, if I remember correctly, the late 1970s.
A very few survive on preserved vehicles but, considering there are still plenty of original style plates around on older vehicles and agricultural machinery, the experiment was not a success and was eventually terminated when the British style system was abandoned in favour of the year and county mark system.

Phil Blinkhorn

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27/06/14 – 06:59

Wow, reading the above comments reminds me of Home. Ron Pugh as mentioned above also drove for my father who was Montgomerys own coach operator, County Garage later Trefaldwyn Motors. Does anyone have any photos of our motors??

Russell Price

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27/06/14 – 08:46

Russell – many of the photos on this link are of Trefaldwyn Motors’ buses – enjoy! //tinyurl.com/otn4ed7

Chris Hebbron

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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08/07/14 – 14:51

Many thanks for mentioning Ron Pugh, indeed he did drive for your fathers company and I should have mentioned Trefaldwyh Motors, a much respected company in Mongomery, of course Trefaldwyn being the welsh language for Montgomery, a really interesting book to read is Montgomery’e Buses an empire of independents by Brian Poole (Oakwood press) Trefaldwynn does get a mention along with two photos.
I too would welcome more views of Trefaldwyn vehicles, sadly Ron Pugh passed away just over 3 years ago following a battle with cancer. However Joan Pugh now lives in Newtown.

Mark Mc Alister