North Western Road Car Co
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/21
Weymann L30/28RD

Until the arrival of ten of these in the North Western fleet in 1956, previous examples of the Leyland PD2 had featured traditional exposed radiators and bodywork by either Leyland themselves, or by Weymann, who had supplied six lightweight but otherwise classically styled bodies in 1953. This last batch featured the PD2/21 chassis with the concealed front – originally designed for Midland Red’s LD8 class, then adopted as standard by Leyland, even leaving the oddly shaped blank space above the grille slots intended for the BMMO badge. The PD2/21 was the less common air-braked variant of the more common vacuum-braked PD2/20. The bodywork was the lowbridge manifestation of the MCW organisation’s lightweight Orion, regarded by many as being particularly slab-sided and ugly, though personally I always felt that the equal depth windows (compared with the unequal ones of the highbridge version) at least improved the overall proportions.
It seems that they were generally unpopular with crews and most local enthusiasts, being accused of being very hard riding. They were quite a familiar site to me – particularly on Summer Saturdays when the usual ‘blacktop’ Tiger Cubs or Reliances were needed for greater things – as they would often pass through my home town of Halifax working on the X12 between Manchester and Bradford. Although this service passed our house, the limited stop conditions on that section left it out of bounds to us locals, so I never got to ride on one.
Although the other nine were scrapped, Neville Mercer has said that 666 was exported to Canada, so there is a remote chance that it could still exist. Similar looking examples were also bought by East Midland, and the Corporations of Luton and Southend.
Here 666 is seen on the parking ground off Wood Street in Stockport, alongside 258, a Leopard PSU4/4R with Duple Commander III C41F body of 1968.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

29/10/14 – 17:07

When I worked at Sharston (near Northenden) 666 from Manchester depot, took me on the first leg of my journey home to Royton. It was on the 64 service to Piccadilly (from Ringway) almost every day. I hated it. The suspension was indeed very hard. I usually sat on the front nearside seat in the lower deck, which was not too bumpy. The North Western drivers always gave me a fast run into town – they made good time by ignoring one or two intending passengers. As for sound effects, the journey was accompanied by sneezing noises from the air brakes!
At summer weekends it sometimes appeared on X12, Manchester – Halifax – Bradford. I had the misfortune to ride on it one Saturday from Bradford to Oldham. The West Riding road surfaces made for a miserable journey!
Wouldn’t mind a ride on it now though!!

Peter G

29/10/14 – 17:08

John mentions that these lowbridge PD2’s were familiar to him as they regularly passed through Halifax on the X12. This one actually passed through Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1972, on its way west, it certainly took me by surprise when I caught a glimpse of it. I’m not sure if it still exists or not, or just where it might be.

Dave Careless

30/10/14 – 07:18

The problem of harsh riding given by the lightweight Orion and its clones was shared by other makes of chassis, all of which were sprung to carry the typical weight of traditional, decent quality bodywork.

Roger Cox

30/10/14 – 07:19

Not only were they hard riding, they were finished to a cheap specification, rattled a lot and the crews hated the rear doors. All in all not the finest NWRCC vehicles.

Phil Blinkhorn

30/10/14 – 07:20

It’s lovely to see a photo of the registration number KDB 666 as nature intended, adorning a North Western Leyland Titan. In the late 1970’s the registration number could often be seen around Harrogate, attached to a very nice green Rover 3500. The bus connection was maintained however, as the Rover was used by one of NBC/West Yorkshire Road Car’s senior managers.

Brendan Smith

05/11/14 – 06:29

I have a note of seeing this bus in Frank Cowley’s yard in Fallowfield, re-registered KDB 499, in January 1972. I wonder what that mark was transferred from?

Michael Keeley

05/11/14 – 11:36

I’ve long wondered if "KDB 499" was a real registration mark. Given the fundamentalist tendencies of many North Americans I can understand why Cowley (given a Canadian buyer for the vehicle) might have decided to remove the original "Number of the Beast" plate, but would they really have gone to the trouble of officially re-registering it with a similar mark? My suspicion is that the plate was for purely cosmetic purposes.
Back in the late 60s I saw a few withdrawn NWRCC vehicles being ferried to Cowley’s Salford and Fallowfield premises using the dealer’s "BA" trade plates, and once the PD2/21 had gotten there its next trip was on a boat. I’d also be interested to find out when the WYRCC staff-car received the registration. Was there a noticeable gap?
The PSV Circle’s NWRCC fleet history asserts that KDB 499 was a genuine registration, but as aficionados of these histories will be aware the level of accuracy in this is not up to their usual standard. Does anybody have a record of Stockport registrations?

Neville Mercer

06/11/14 – 06:08

KDB 499 may well have been a real registration mark but not to NWRCC for a PSV. They had KDB 631 to KDB 700, all but 661-670 being applied to Tiger Cub deliveries in 1956 and 1957.

Orla Nutting

06/11/14 – 11:42

Hi Orla, I think you’ve forgotten the batch of Weymann Fanfares that started at KDB 626, making a total of 75 vehicles in the block allocation. KDB 499 was presumably allocated to a private car, and I really can’t understand why NWRCC would go to the trouble of re-registering the vehicle before selling it to Cowley. Back in those days this would have involved buying the previous vehicle to wear the marks – a rather expensive manoeuvre merely to get rid of one old bus. There’s obviously another story going on here – the allocation of 666’s old registration number to the WYRCC staff car. I appreciate that "KDB" looks vaguely like a WYRCC fleet number, but a staff car would look nothing like a Keighley based Bristol double-decker! Why would anybody (especially a no-nonsense THC subsidiary) pay good money to do this?
Do we have any ex-WYRCC readers who can throw further light on this?

Neville Mercer

06/11/14 – 14:15

Ah, yes. The AEC Reliances. I had forgotten them.

Orla Nutting

07/11/14 – 13:17

Neville, the senior member of staff arrived in Harrogate from elsewhere in the National Bus Company empire, and the Rover came with him, already bearing its KDB 666 registration. Maybe he had a soft spot for this particular bus (666) or perhaps there was something of significance in the registration. Alas we’ll probably never know.

Brendan Smith

11/11/14 – 18:18

I’ve done some digging in my records and find that KDB 666 was on a Rover 3500 that came under West Yorkshire admin on 16/1/75. However, it runs in my mind that the NBC “senior member” was Robert Brook, and that he didn’t come to Yorkshire to join West Yorkshire, but to live. Certainly, it’s shown as being the “Chief Executive’s” car. At about this time, if you remember, NBC was also running an area office in Darlington, to which Bill Stephen had been “shunted” when he was removed as WY Chief Engineer, but whether that was where Mr Brook also worked I can’t now remember. I suspect he probably spent a lot of time commuting to London!

Trevor Leach

12/11/14 – 05:36

Presumably the Robert Brook who was General Manager of North Western at the time it was broken up? I seem to recall that there was another Robert Brook, although I might just have been confused by rapid ‘career moves’!

Nigel Frampton

09/04/15 – 07:05

I remember seeing a beige Rover in Cheadle in the late sixties or early seventies with the reg KDB 666. I loved occasionally having a lowbridge Titan on my journey to school. The routes 29, 30, 52 and 52A were predominantly Daimler Fleetlines, Dennis Lolines 2 and 3 and AEC Renowns (my favourite bus ever was AJA 121B one of the second batch with moquette upholstery on the upper deck) so a lowbridge Titan was quite a novelty.

Graham Bloxsome

23/05/15 – 07:05

There’s no mystery. Robert Brook was the last GM of North Western and he took the registration with him for his car when he left at the end of 1972. He also left with a photo I prepared for him of 666 as delivered in the old cream roof black wings livery. He and I left the Manchester area at the same time and he kindly let me speak to him in his office knowing my interest in North Western and as owner of CDB 206.

Bob Bracegirdle

01/09/17 – 15:14

I’ve just read through this thread and can definitely clarify, if there’s still any uncertainty, that Robert Brook was overall Chairman of NBC in 1978-80 at a time when Linda Chalker was Minister for Transport. My GM at the time would say ‘Oh dear, we’ve got another Dear Robert, love Linda.’ i.e. another memo from the Minister to our lord and master that had to be dealt with. Presumably Bob B’s ‘left’ didn’t mean retirement, or could have referred to another RB?

Nick Turner

Liverpool City Transport
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Crossley H33/29R

New in November 1956, L255 was one of a batch of 65 Leyland Titan PD2/20 chassis that had been ordered back in 1955, partly to enable the 19 & 44 tram routes to be converted to bus operation. It was originally painted in the Dark green livery with two cream bands.
When new L255 was allocated to Carnegie Road garage, but its stay there was only short lived as it was transferred to Walton in March 1957. There it was used on routes such as 19/44/92/93 serving the new expanding housing estates of Kirkby, Southdene and Tower Hill as well as the Corporations own Kirkby Industrial Estate. where it lives today!
When Walton closed for rebuilding in October 1962, L255, along with the majority of Waltons allocation moved to the new Gillmoss garage . Following overhauls in 1966 and 1971 it returned to Gillmoss.
It then moved to Litherland garage in August 1973 and saw use on services 28,51,52,53,55,55A,56,57,57A,58,59 to Ford, Netherton and Sefton. L255’s stay at Litherland was a short one as it was transferred for the last time in April 1975 to Green Lane. There it was used mainly on peak hour extras and industrial workings until it was finally withdrawn from service in March 1976.
Purchased for preservation in May 1976 and joined the other vehicles in the growing Mersey and Calder Preservation group in 1977. As L255 was in basically good condition it was soon rubbed down and painted back into the early 1960’s livery of green with cream staircase panel and window surrounds.
In 1996 after more than 20 years in active preservation and with more than 25 years since a major overhaul, it was time for some major body restoration. After stripping every external panel off the bus, it was soon found that there was a fair amount of work involved.
Following a flurry of activity in early 2007, L255 was eventually completed finally passing the MOT 2 days before the Mersey Transport Trust’s annual running day in September 2007, proving a popular attraction during the day. During 2009 a rechromed drivers window surround was fitted and in 2010 side adverts were added much improving its appearance. It is seen at the 2014 Kirkby running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

28/10/14 – 07:03

I always thought that the Liverpool bonnet assembly detracted from the overall look of these buses. The flush windscreen and unusual livery application didn’t really help either

Chris Hough

29/10/14 – 07:12

Totally agree Chris. Much better looking examples of what was a PRV design were operated in the North West by Oldham and Stockport.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/10/14 – 15:59

When compared to other tin fronts of the period, the front panel and the area around the windscreen, give it a sort of DIY in-house accident repair appearance, rather than one that was built that way in the first place.

Ronnie Hoye

30/10/14 – 07:16

There is a lot of confusion about Crossley bodies of this period. Despite employing the PRV rear emergency window, I don’t believe this was the PRV design (as supplied later to Stockport and Oldham), and neither does the Crossley book (Eyre Heaps & Townsin). Mind you, that book isn’t foolproof; identical bodies supplied to Darwen are coded as the PRV design, while those supplied to Sunderland are coded as a Liverpool design.
The flat front to the upper deck is something specifically requested by Liverpool and used on Crossley bodies elsewhere. The standard Midland Red assembly would not have allowed this, and in fact later Liverpool bodies with the Midland Red assembly had bow-fronted bodies by Duple and Alexander.

Peter Williamson

31/10/14 – 06:27

As the owner of the bus, I can confirm that the Crossley body is of Park Royal design, I have restored both L255 & Park Royal bodied Barrow 170 CEO 957, the only difference being the window frames. Liverpool using glass mounted from the inside with a window ledge inside as against the Standard Park Royal body on 170 with windows mounted from the outside with a ledge outside. The last true Crossley designed body supplied to Liverpool was L224, L225 to L244 also carried Crossley framework but the coachwork was completed by LCPT at Edge lane works.
I hope this clarifies it more.

Rob Wilson

03/11/14 – 06:34

Thanks for your clarification, Rob. It probably means I’ve been spouting rubbish on various forums for some time, thanks to believing what experts write in books. One thing that fooled me (not clear in this view but there are plenty of other photos around) was the small rectangular windows in the front bulkhead, which Crossley had used on their own-framed bodies. On other Park Royal-framed Crossley bodies the bulkhead is the standard Park Royal type with a deeply arched lower rail to the windows. Perhaps this is again due to the different glazing system used for Liverpool (and Darwen, Sunderland and Aberdeen).

Peter Williamson

03/11/14 – 10:19

A quick scan on SCT61 pages suggests that Liverpool specified that size of front bulkhead window on all their contemporary Leyland deckers be they Saunders-Roe, Duple, Alexander or Crossley bodied.
On Stockport’s Crossley bodied Leyland deckers with PRV frames the bulkhead window bottom rail does follow the line of the engine cover but it, and those on the next batch of Longwell Green bodies, is still a very narrow window (made to look even more so by the top opening vent) compared with that fitted to their later East Lancs bodied St Helens front PD2s.

Orla Nutting

03/11/14 – 16:28

Liverpool made a habit of taking framed chassis from the likes of Weymann and Crossley but then changing the profiles. There were some very odd Weymann/Liverpool bodies on Regent IIs with an upright profile which ruined the general style of the Weymann original – and I believe they also had non-Weymann upper deck tear emergency exits. Even the Met-Camm Orion Regent Vs were not standard Met-Camm. That accolade went to the the famous Nottingham PD2s famous because they were the first Nottingham PD2s.

David Oldfield

04/11/14 – 06:45

…..and of course there were the 1949 all Crossley DD42s that Sheffield acquired new as a cancelled Liverpool order. These were neither the popularly remembered Crossley outline, nor did they have the PRV framed body. These were identical to the Regent IIIs and the first Regent Vs which Liverpool took delivery of and kept hold of. Although L255 is obviously based on the PRV design, there are also elements of the earlier design around the front (especially upper deck).

David Oldfield

05/11/14 – 06:40

Hopefully a rather extensive restoration of Barrow 170 will be completed soon by the Barrow Transport group.
So I hope that when it ventures to our NWVRT Open day at Kirkby (plug 31/5/2015)we can get them parked together to record similarities.
Another Park Royal trait that L255 carries internally is the pressed out lighting mounts along the cove panels in the upper saloon ,just like the ones on 170 & Park Royal bodied Liverpool E1.
The Crossley Bodies AEC’s and the Liverpool PD2’s up to L224 had their lights at the edge of the ceiling . Was this a standard Crossley practice ?

Rob Wilson

11/11/14 – 18:20

I now have to eat some more of my words. Earlier I said that use of the standard Leyland (originally Midland Red) bonnet assembly would not have allowed Liverpool to have their much-loved flat-fronted upper deck. I got this idea from Alan Townsin’s Duple book, which says that the uncharacteristic bow fronts of the Duple bodies on L91-140 were dictated by the design of the Leyland tin-front.
However, I now find that Darwen’s pair of Crossley-bodied PD2/20s managed to incorporate both the Leyland tin front and the Liverpool-style flat-fronted upper deck perfectly well – see www.sct61.org.uk/dw15
I also think I have solved the conundrum of the bulkhead window. Other photos of L255 show it to have a much wider bulkhead window than the Crossley-framed bodies, and the reason for departing from the standard PRV window was almost certainly the rearward-facing seat behind the bulkhead, which I had forgotten about. I have reverted to my earlier belief that other Crossley bodies with the narrow window (Darwen, Sunderland, Aberdeen) were Crossley-framed.

Peter Williamson

04/06/16 – 07:07

I thought I had a photo of a Liverpool Crossley DD42 and have now found it. C642 taken at Pier Head on July 5, 1962, still in cream bands livery and by this time only appearing on school, university and short workings.

Geoff Pullin

08/01/21 – 07:33

I loved the batch of Leylands that replaced the trams.
When I became a bus spotter circa 1962, the fleet still had remnants of pre war buses when it was difficult to buy one.
When Leyland Atlanteans were used on my school route 61 to Aigburth, occasionally in the peak hours you would get a 1947/8 Leyland Titan PD2/1 (L425-428) with Leyland coachwork with moquette seats, very harsh with short kegs (trousers). They were almost posh for their time and its such a shame that none of them were saved.
I believe L316-318 were not painted as A40. Shame they were not saved as well.
I used to go to the Edge Lane depot and walk around the withdrawals, Daimlers, early AEC regent IIIs (grim). Those lovely enamelled AEC badges on the radiators and bell pushes……
I was only 11.

Muckel Price

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1967
Bedford VAM 5
ECW B45F

The last Bristol MW’s entered service in May 1967, and the first LH’s in June 1968. In the interim, Western National placed in service a batch of twelve Bedford VAM 5 with Eastern Coachworks bus bodywork. These were numbered 701-712 (KDV 131 -142F). The body design was clearly based on the standard design which had been produced in large numbers for the Bristol MW model, but with a more modern front end grafted onto it. The VAM 5 model had the small Bedford 330 cu in engine and a four speed gearbox. The batch led a full service life of at least twelve years; Latterly the last six of the batch were allocated to Newquay Depot, and could regularly be found working the scenic and hilly route 573 from Newquay to St. Columb Minor, which followed the coast for a few miles before turning inland. Here we see one of the batch negotiating a hairpin bend just west of Watergate bay.
West Yorkshire also had four Bedford VAM with this style of ECW body, but the West Yorkshire examples were type VAM 14, with the Leyland 400 engine and a five speed gearbox. The West Yorkshire batch had a very short operational life. I believe that Eastern Counties also had some of these interesting vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

22/10/14 – 18:20

Eastern Counties did have some of these ECW bodied Bedfords one was sold to Primrose Valley of Hunmanby. I rode on it from Filey to Reighton Gap and I have to say never had I been on a more vibration prone vehicle. Although having now had a ride on a preserved Bristol SC!

Chris Hough

23/10/14 – 07:04

I always considered these to be fascinating and businesslike vehicles, combining the classic "no nonsense" ECW lines with a most worthy lightweight chassis. I’ve always had a very soft spot for Bedford "no nonsense" honest and well performing vehicles, and if any vibration was felt look on the bright side Chris – therapeutic vibro massage included free !!

Chris Youhill

24/10/14 – 07:28

I remember encountering these beasts at Dartmouth in the early ’70s. With the benefit of hindsight (as well as driving later examples) I would hazard the opinion that the zenith of Bedford’s existence was with their petrol models. With due deference to Chris, I would say that Bedford diesels were a poor substitute and my operator friend concurs that the VAM5s he operated with Eastern Scottish were a nightmare and grossly underpowered. Likewise, Ribble got rid of its small number of VAM5s after an indecently short time. While the 466 and 500 diesels were a great improvement, there is a general consensus that the VAL14 and VAM14 (Leyland O400) were far better than the VAL70 and VAM70 (Bedford 466). Which makes the short operational lives of West Yorkshire’s VAM14s all the more strange.

David Oldfield

24/10/14 – 18:23

I don’t remember these when growing up in Taunton but I’ve asked for more information from Colin Billington who says "The early ones (700-703) were allocated to Plymouth often passing through Kingsbridge on the 93 route. Don has the numbering wrong, They were 700-711 (KDV 130-141F) not 701-12. 712 was a LH.
Noisy things with the engine next to the driver"

Ken Jones

04/03/16 – 06:45

Don is correct. ECOC had four VAMs with ECW bodies: 2 X Bedford engines and 2 X Leyland engines! SB663 (NAH 663F), with Leyland engine, is seen leaving Norwich Thorpe Railway Station on Sunday May 12, 1968 when it was one of at least 10 new shiny ECOC vehicles (not one displaying any side adverts) taking passengers from the Flying Scotsman excursion on a variety of tours. As delivered, the driver access to the cab was by squeezing between the partial screen behind the driver’s seat and the offside body side. I had them rebuilt so you walked over a more substantial engine cover incorporating the ticket machine mounting. The point to comparing the two engines was a bit academic as NBC bought no more bus versions!

Geoff Pullin

18/10/16 – 07:53

NAH 661/2F had Bedford 330 engines and were VAM5.
NAH 663/4F had Leyland 400 engines and were VAM14.

Steve Paine

22/05/21 – 06:37

I help to look after a Leyland 400 powered Bedford VAM in New Zealand. It is reliable but seems quite under-powered. It is certainly quite loud from the drivers seat, and enough vibration to keep things interesting. Ours has a high speed diff but a conventional (not overdrive) gearbox.
The previous comments about these buses is really interesting, thank you.

Andrew Robinson