Southport Corporation
1965
Leyland Titan PD2/40
Weymann O37/27F

New to Southport Corporation in 1965, with fleet number 54. She is a Leyland Titan PD2/40 with Weymann O64F body, converted from H64F. When Southport was absorbed into Merseyside, there was uproar among the natives, who wanted to remain in Lancashire. The place does, after all, have a Preston postcode rather than a Liverpool one! Do the residents still hold – as many in Bournemouth and Christchurch do in respect of Hampshire and Dorset – that they live in Lancashire, but Merseyside is allowed to look after certain aspects of life? We see her on Southampton’s Itchen Bridge on 6 May 1979, while taking part in the local operator’s Centenary celebrations.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

22/12/15 – 07:11

Regarding the open top Leyland currently on site, please find attached a photograph of the bus? OR an identical one. It is seen on Trans Pennine 2015 and is in the William Hunter collection.

Tracked your picture down to 154 reg, my picture is of 151 !
How many did they get?

Roy Dodsworth

22/12/15 – 08:57

Hello, Roy! Thank you for your thoughts. I’m afraid I can’t help you, as the BBF ‘Lancashire Municipal’ book I found a few years ago doesn’t include this batch. I am, however, very confident that at least one of the other readers will be able to advise us both!

Pete Davies

22/12/15 – 08:58

Take a look here //web.archive.org/web/southport3.htm

Peter

23/12/15 – 13:53

There’s almost a Beverly Bar tumble-home to CMW 151C’s upper deck glazing, distinctive I suppose.

Stephen Allcroft

24/12/15 – 06:24

Yes, Stephen, there is. I hadn’t noticed on the view of 154. Can anyone tell us if they were converted at the same time? The fleet list noted above suggests they were still H rather than O at the time of transfer to Merseyside.

Pete Davies

24/12/15 – 06:25

Oh, Southport’s resistance to Merseyside has taken many forms over the years. In bus terms red wheels were one of the first signs, then the use of municipal livery on open toppers and more recently on park and ride buses.
As for the town itself since the abolition of the county council I suspect it’s less of a problem although sharing Sefton Borough with parts rather close to Liverpool has been a problem.
I believe they managed to get Merseyside off the postal address a while back but in these days of ceremonial and postal counties and fragmented political counties it’s all a mess. I prefer to go with geographic counties which spares poor old Middlesex and puts my old home town of Widnes firmly back in Lancashire.
On the Wirral they managed to get their postcodes changed from L to CH with a positive effect on insurance premiums….

Rob McCaffery

25/12/15 – 08:05

Prior to 1974 Southport was a County Borough: County Boroughs were created in 1889, when administrative County Councils were established, for larger towns/cities for which it was felt that administrative control by the County would be inappropriate/impractical – they were abolished by Peter Walker’s Local Government Act (1972). It’s my understanding that Southport was offered the option of incorporation as a Borough within either Lancashire or the Metropolitan County of Merseyside: the former would have allowed it to retain it’s transport undertaking but would have meant responsibility for education passed to Lancashire County Council, whereas Metropolitan Boroughs retained control of education (but lost control of transport to the PTE) – clearly the Aldermen and Councillors of the County Borough of Southport knew where their priorities lay. Initially it was proposed that the 1974 County boundaries would apply solely for administrative purposes and that existing County boundaries would be retained for postal and ceremonial purposes, but . . .

Philip Rushworth

25/12/15 – 09:40

I know exactly what Philip R means! In Southampton, there were moves to have the whole of Southern Hampshire – including Portsmouth – declared a Metropolitan County, so the local districts could maintain control of Education which, otherwise, would go to ‘those idiots at the County Council’. Gosport was what was called an "Excepted District" for Education, and Fareham was only an Urban District. It was, however, pointed out that a Metropolitan County would control the buses through a PTE, so the idea was dropped in favour of keeping the buses under local control and losing the Education.

Pete Davies

31/12/15 – 07:23

Along with at least two dozen fellow enthusiasts, I spent the best part of a week in the Spring of 1988 on holiday with 0651 as our principal mode of travel, the group having hired it, with several holding PSV licenses so that we could drive it ourselves.
It was a fine week, with plenty of time spent on the upper deck in the sunshine, and I shan’t ever forget the crackling roar the old PD2 made as it pounded surefootedly up the steep Matlock Bank on the way to Chesterfield and Sheffield on the last night of the holiday. What a fine tribute that superb machine is to the designers and workers who spent their careers at the Leyland factory.

Dave Careless

31/12/15 – 12:22

Dave C, I think someone had clearly attended to the governor on your vehicle. I remember joining a tour of West Yorkshire in 1977 which used similar but earlier PD2/44 and thinking that it couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding! I was used to the performance of Halifax’s almost-identical vehicles and the comparison was stark. I always assumed that Southport’s were governed down severely as they only ran on very flat routes.

David Beilby

31/03/16 – 06:35

Note this vehicle up for sale as of April 2016

Roger Burdett

25/11/16 – 07:27

I was an apprentice fitter at Southport Corporation, Canning rd. Depot in the late 60’s.
The batch of buses you were asking about were numbered from 43 – 57 and they all had vacuum brakes as opposed to air brakes and manual gearboxes not semi automatics and the 01 prefix numbers were only applied after the MPTE takeover.
The later batch nos. were converted to OMO operation by moving the drivers N/S cab window outwards over the bonnet and the driver had to literally turn round to the left and face backwards to collect the fares, something of a feat even in those days!
The Drivers who opted to become OMO drivers were paid the princely sum of 3d an hour more (note not decimal pence btw) to become OMO drivers!
Mr Alan Westwell (now Dr. Alan Westwell) designed the cab window arrangement conversion when he was ‘The Rolling Stock Engineer’ at Canning Rd., note the title of RSE as opposed to Chief Engineer, as the title was from the old tramway days of long ago!
The next batch of vehicles were Leyland Panthers which were numbered from 58-70

Norman Johnstone

25/11/16 – 10:38

When London Country came into being in 1970, it, too, set up the post of RSE (Rolling Stock Engineer). He was then supplied with an Assistant, so entitled, until the unfortunate acronym thus created subsequently led to the renaming of the post as ‘Deputy’.

Roger Cox

25/11/16 – 13:14

At Derby Borough/City Transport we had a Chief Engineer (the late Gerald Truran), and, a Rolling Stock Superintendent, and an Assistant Rolling Stock Superintendent.
The latter two posts being a throw back to Trolleybus days.

Stephen Howarth

25/11/16 – 14:08

I can assure you that the title of Rolling Stock Engineer is still alive and well in the tramway field. I am one!

David Beilby

25/11/16 – 14:17

I am a volunteer at The North West Museum of Transport in St. Helens.
We are at present in the process of restoring Southport Corporation 62 a 1946 Daimler Utility CWA6 which apparently is one of only a few surviving CWA6’s with genuine wartime utility bodies by Duple.
We have just fitted a replacement AEC 7.7 engine which by all accounts are as scare to say the least.
This particular vehicle finished it’s life at Aintree Racecourse as a Stewards Bus on the racecourse when the museum acquired it many years ago.
If anyone has any more information regarding this bus please can they get in touch as we do have some very limited information on it as it is a genuine wartime utility bus bodied by Duple.

Norman Johnstone

27/11/16 – 07:40

I am glad Ronnie Cox didn’t let him convert Glasgow’s 229 forward entrance Double decks for OMO and I am sure the surviving drivers from early GG PTE days are too!

Stephen Allcroft

27/02/18 – 05:58

In the foregoing comments there is a reference to a PD2/44. I am not acquainted with such, thinking that PD2 variants ceased at No 41.
Was 44 a special to Southport?

Orla Nutting

28/02/18 – 07:41

Blame the typist!
I was wondering who would claim it was a PD2/44 then realised who wrote the post….

David Beilby

28/02/18 – 07:42

Re. Southport 62, the Utility Daimler. I was a volunteer at Steamport in Southport when 62 arrived. It was exchanged for Birkenhead 15, a PD2. It had been used as a sort of grandstand for the motor racing circuit at Aintree and was possibly a commentary position though I can’t be certain of that. When there was a clear out of some vehicles at Steamport there was a danger that it would be scrapped. Fortunately, I was able to arrange for it to be towed to the former Large Objects Store in Liverpool where it remained for some years. Upon the closure of those premises I assisted in removing the bus to a position outside the building to await removal to St Helens. During this operation 3 out of the 4 of us who were involved were attacked by cat fleas, presumably rather upset that the wild cats that had been living on the bus had fled the scene!
Good luck with the work on 62. I was impressed all those years ago that the bodywork was so solid despite it being a Utility. If it still has a lot of blue seat frames stored upstairs, they are from Birkenhead 15, not being required for its role taking over from 62.

Jonathan Cadwallader

01/03/18 – 05:59

Typo notwithstanding, it isn’t true that PD2 variants ceased at 41. In the final "rationalised" range, the former PD2A/24, PD2A/27, PD2A/30, PD2/34, PD2/37 and PD2/40 were replaced respectively by PD2A/44, PD2/47, PD2/50, PD2A/54, PD2/57 and PD2/60. However, only the PD2/47 was actually built, for St Helens, Lowestoft and Darwen.

Peter Williamson

02/03/18 – 08:13

Thanks for that. I had a nagging feeling that I’d read about the PD2/47 somewhere.

Orla Nutting

10/06/18 – 08:38

Just an update on the Southport Daimler 62.
The replacement engine has now been fitted and runs extremely well and lo & behold only a couple of months ago we actually moved 62 in the museum to another space next to where it was parked, albeit basically10ft the the right in the shunt, but it actually was ‘driven’ to the next space after well over 28 years of having no engine in it and although the brakes were shall we say not exactly functional the handbrake worked perfectly (except for the ratchet which was sticking) and so did all the pre-select gears including reverse!

Norman Johnstone

22/06/20 – 06:52

43-46 UWM43-46 Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1961
47-50 WFY47-50 Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1962
51-54 CWM151-154C Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1965
55-58 GFY55-58E Leyland PD2/40 MCCW 1967
All looked identical but some detail differences: red or black radiator grilles front top deck opening vent windows or not side opening windows – some sliders, some rill type lower skirt panel near side immediately after door – some single panel with a slight curve to transition from the straight down door post to curved lower pane – some curved panel with no transition from straight down door post.

Trevor Wilson

Copyright Unknown

Heaps Motor Tours
1937
Maudslay SF40 Magna
Holbrook C37F

This Maudslay Magna, chassis number 5333, was new to Heaps Tours in March 1937 and was sold to Baker, Featherstone in March 1951. Clearly, later still it joined the fair circuit. I have no other information but think the Yorkshire Tykes will be queuing up to furnish the detail.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

17/12/15 – 07:45

What an interesting specimen, and what a great shame that the breed appears to be extinct! Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

17/12/15 – 07:46

What a shame that not one of these revolutionary, and Maudslays most popular PSV chassis, ever survived.

Chris Hebbron

17/12/15 – 07:55

Any clues on the bodywork, Willowbrook perhaps?

Peter

18/12/15 – 06:22

The side flash looks Burlingham but the wheel arch embellishments more like Windover.

Eric Bawden

18/12/15 – 06:24

New -/37, to Heaps as mentioned with a Holbrook 37-seater front entrance body (quite an advanced idea at the time). It passed to Harold Baker t/a J Baker & Son 3/51. The Yorkshire Rose fleet name was in use by 12/54, while the coach left for pastures new 12/54. Presumably it passed to the showman at that time ?

MikeB

18/12/15 – 10:04

Thanks for that MikeB, Was this a solo vehicle or part of a batch, do you know. I thought the chrome strips on the wheel-arch trims may have been added by the showman.

Les Dickinson

18/12/15 – 10:04

Holbrook? That’s a brand most of us won’t have encountered before! It does, as Eric says, look a bit of a cross between Burlingham and Windover.

Pete Davies

19/12/15 – 07:03

Samuel Holbrook of Wolverhampton metamorphosed, in 1937, out of Holbrook & Taylors, also known as HT Bodies, but in the 1920’s more commonly known as Taylors of Wolverhampton! In 1930, it was specialising in 14-20 seater bodies for Ford and Chevrolet commercial chassis.
It built at least two bodies for the Magna, seemingly ordered by Maudslay as demonstrators or for Motor Shows of the period. This vehicle is likely to be first one. It is very attractive and still looks modern in the mid-1950’s.

Chris Hebbron

19/12/15 – 13:16

Can someone enlighten me as to what was so advanced or revolutionary about this model, please? Excuse my ignorance. My association with Maudslay vehicles was very limited, confined to some examples that Hutfields of Gosport operated, alongside some beautiful AEC Reliances with Burlingham Seagull bodies and some ex-Southdown lowbridge Leyland Titans.

David Wragg

20/12/15 – 08:04

According to David Kaye’s "Buses and Trolleybuses 1919-1945, it was one of the first chassis to have the front axle set back far enough to allow a front, not just forward, entrance (i.e. "Door Forward" rather than "Wheel Forward").

Graham Woods

20/12/15 – 08:06

According to Wiki (usual disclaimer)
A significant product was the SF40 front engined coach chassis, with set back front axle, which came onto the market in 1934. It achieved quite seccessful sales figures until the advent of WWII.

John Lomas

20/12/15 – 08:07

Although the 1933 AEC ‘Q’ was the first UK chassis to have the front axle set back to allow a true front entrance, it was a poor seller, apart from London Transport, who took 233 single deckers , although some of these had centre entrances. The engine was in the offside, tilted slightly. It was, perhaps, a step too far for the conservative-minded UK bus industry. The Maudslay SF40 adopted the same front entrance principle, but had the engine at the front, Ailsa-style; more conventional. It was produced not long after the ‘Q’s, in 1935, and sold in larger numbers to a wider number of users than the AEC, both in bus and coach form, maybe because the ‘Q’ had already blazed a trail and seemed less unusual by then. By 1937, Gardner 4LW/5LW engines were available and there is no evidence of any problems with heavy steering, which might have been a negative consequence. Here is a link to another SF40 thread on this site: //tinyurl.com/jrskqgt

Chris Hebbron

20/12/15 – 08:09

In the 1920s, Samuel Holbrook worked for Austin as a sales manager, but in 1930 went into partnership with the car body constructor, Taylors of Wolverhampton (this name was adopted to distinguish it from a competing firm called Taylor of Norwich). The company then adopted the revised title of Holbrook and Taylor. It was located in Park Lane, Wolverhampton, and concerned itself mainly with the construction of bodies for touring cars. Bus and coach bodywork soon formed part of the product range, and 14 to 20 seat bodies were offered for Ford and Chevrolet chassis. A 20 seat coach body by Holbrook and Taylor on a Commer Invader chassis was exhibited at the Scottish Motor Show in November 1930. In that same year the firm built an observation coach seating 30 passengers with a toilet compartment beneath the raised rear floor area. It was called the Bella Vista (now where have we seen that name again?). In 1933 Taylor withdrew from the business, which was reformed as Samuel Holbrook Ltd. The company built car bodywork for many of the major makers of the 1930s, and regularly displayed its car and commercial products at motor shows of the time. (There was also a contemporary Coventry based company called Holbrook that built car bodywork, but this had no connection with Samuel Holbrook.) The Commercial Motor edition for 5th November 1937 mentions a Holbrook bodied Maudslay SF40 Magna displayed at the Commercial Motor Show of that year – possibly this was the same machine illustrated above, though the seating capacity was then stated to be 40. A 26 seat Guy with full fronted bodywork was also shown. Despite its presence at such major marketing events, Holbrook went into receivership and disappeared from the motoring scene, supposedly in 1938. However, the historic fleet list for Delaine of Bourne shows a 1930 Leyland TS2 with a Duple body being given a new C37F body by Holbrook in 1939. Perhaps that was the year it entered service rather than the date of manufacture. The following links show examples of Holbrook bodywork:-
//nonsequitur.freeforums.org/one
//nonsequitur.freeforums.org/two
//nonsequitur.freeforums.org/three
The Maudslay SF40 Magna design has been discussed in detail elsewhere on OBP – see Gibson Brothers of Barlestone (Comfort Buses)- 1922 to 1940

Roger Cox

20/12/15 – 12:55

So, the products of Holbrook and Taylor were Wulfrunians, were they?
Season’s greetings to all our readers and, no, I’ve not started on the vino yet!

Pete Davies

20/12/15 – 12:56

Thank you everyone, that’s very helpful. It certainly looked advanced for the time and, of course, I should have noticed that the front axle was set back. Interesting that this model outsold the ‘Q’ from the mighty AEC, but as we know bus operators do tend to be very conservative, which is why there were only three customers for the Routemaster, and one of them, BEA, left operations in the hands of London Transport.

David Wragg

21/12/15 – 07:55

Being curious and living not far from Holbrooks in Coventry I thought I would look a bit further into Holbrook Motors. Did not find much except that Harry Holbrook built cars in USA around the same period using "English" technology. Were they related?

Roger Burdett

21/12/15 – 07:56

It occurs to me that we should not forget the other pre-war contender for a true front-entrance coach, the Tilling-Stevens Successor, ready for the 1936 Motor Show, but no vehicles were ever sold, probably because the company was not a mainstream psv provider by this time. The Duple body was actually centre-entrance, but a front entrance was surely possible, looking at the photo in Bus & Coach magazine at the following link: //tinyurl.com/h4mr4xr

Chris Hebbron

21/12/15 – 07:57

Heaps nearest competitor locally was one Sammy Ledgard who also had a Maudslay SF40 There is a picture of it on www.sct61.org.uk In later years it’s body was transferred to an ex London wartime Daimler decker!

Chris Hough

21/12/15 – 18:04

Did Samuel Ledgard buy this coach from new, or acquire it later?

Chris Hebbron

22/12/15 – 07:17

The US firm of Holbrook took its name from Harry F Holbrook who set up the company with John (known as Jack) Graham in 1908. Holbrook left the firm in 1913. After a period of growth in the 1920s, the company fell victim to the Great Depression, and closed in 1930. A comprehensive history of the firm may be found here:- www.coachbuilt.com/bui/h/holbrook/holbrook.htm  
There appears to have been no connection with the Wolverhampton company.

Roger Cox

22/12/15 – 17:10

The Tilling Stevens Successor has been mentioned, but its eight cylinder boxer engine, independent rear suspension and Maybach-designed seven speed preselective constant mesh gearbox are probably reasons for a net sales figure of zero.
The only AEC Q’s to have provision for a "door-forward" layout (although generally without doors back then) were the double decks and the LT Central Area 5Q5 single deckers, the rest had too short a front overhang.
All but the first of the Northern General Transport SE6 single-deckers and all of their SE4s had front entrances (with a sliding door at the front bulkhead) as did 3/4 of the transverse rear engined preselective gearbox BMMO REC. They were of 1935 introduction.
Also at the 1937 Olympia Show was the Leyland Gnu TEP1 bodied as a front entrance bus by Walter Alexander. See this www.flickr.com/photos/one

Stephen Allcroft

23/12/15 – 06:42

The two Chris’s "H" – yes Ledgard did buy CUB 1 brand new – and later when the chassis was withdrawn its body was mounted on the chassis of the Park Royal "relaxed utility" ex London Transport HGF 948(D271). The removed body of the latter was later mounted on the Ledgard Daimler CWA6 JUB 649, whose own Duple body had very uncharacteristically deteriorated prematurely. The Brush body of CUB 1 made for a very strange coach indeed, while the Park Royal body gave JUB 649 a fascinating air by being a unique mixture. For more information see this link.

Chris Youhill

19/11/19 – 16:28

For those interested, I have re-registered the vehicle and returned it to service!

Steve Thoroughgood

11/09/22 – 06:02

That’s wonderful news, Steve. Must be unique by now.

Chris Hebbron

Marchwood Motorways (Totton)
1966
Bedford VAM5
Plaxton C45F

DOT 248D is a Bedford VAM, bought new in 1966 by Marchwood Motorways of Totton, near Southampton (not TOTON, the great railway marshalling yard and depot in the Midlands!). The bodywork is by Plaxton. Like other members of the fleet bought new, she would have been on private hire and tours duties, before being relegated to staff bus duties at Fawley refinery. We see her in the depot yard on 9 April 1983. She isn’t a survivor.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

14/12/15 – 06:29

Marchwood also had a sizeable fleet in Pembrokeshire until about September 1981. These vehicles were mostly used in connection with the refineries at Milford Haven.When Marchwood decided to withdraw from the area some of the fleet stayed with Pembs operators. Five found a new home with Richards Brothers, Cardigan; they were all Bedford YRQs as follows FOU 217/8K (Viceroys) HPB 674N and TPX 332P "Dominant buses) and JDE 252L, a Dominant coach.

Les Dickinson

14/12/15 – 16:18

Thanks for that, Les. I have but a vague recollection that the Pembrokeshire operation was, legally at least, a separate company operated as a subsidiary, but I’m probably wrong.

Pete Davies

15/12/15 – 06:26

The FOU 217/7K Bedford YRQ’s were registered in Southampton.

Chris Hebbron

15/12/15 – 07:30

At the risk of being accused of nit-picking, Chris, OU was a Hampshire registration, not a Southampton one. Southampton used CR, OW and TR (until the reorganisation of local government in 1974, when DVLA was established and letters like AX, GM or JM moved from one end of the country to another).

Pete Davies

15/12/15 – 14:02

You’re right, of course, Pete; a senior moment, I’m afraid!

Chris Hebbron