Leeds City Transport (West Yorkshire PTE)
1964
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Roe H41/29F

In June 1978 West Yorkshire PTE transferred five Fleetlines 101 – 105 from Leeds to Calderdale. 101 was a 1964 Commercial Vehicle Motor Show exhibit which was unique amongst the batch with a single piece curved windscreen and twin headlamps. It is shown here at Skircoat Moor in Halifax shortly before entering service there. One or two points to note, a relatively low seating capacity of 70 when 77 was more normal for this size and layout; note apparently no opening windows in the lower deck (can’t remember this). I do remember the heavy steering and abysmal demisters – this could also affect many other early Fleetlines. The transfer was in the interests of standardisation but this batch had the original ‘heavyweight’ chassis whereas the Halifax buses had the later simplified rear sub frame hence different rear engine mountings – another problem area in early Fleetlines.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

14/01/16 – 16:30

The various early attempts made to ‘prettify’ the boxy shape of the Orion inspired body designs on the first generation Fleetlines and Atlanteans never seemed to come off. Here on this attempt by Roe the lower front panel and curved windscreen seem totally out of context to the remainder which is totally angular. Of the early rear-engined body designs only the Glasgow Alexander version seemed to be designed as a whole and didn’t look like a botch-up. The Bolton East Lancs Atlanteans were pretty good too where the body design seemed to be geared to suit the very attractive livery. It will certainly not be remembered as a high point in British bus bodywork design.

Philip Halstead

14/01/16 – 17:50

I remember 101 well, Ian. My work records show me as having driven it on three occasions at Halifax during 1979. The first was on the 5th January when my conductor Dave Maude and I had it for the first half of a split duty. It is recorded as having been booked off for "No Heaters, No Demisters, Heavy Steering and Slipping Flywheel".
I well remember this occasion as we had struggled to operate a trip to Sowerby with a full standing load of school children for Ryburn Valley High School who unfortunately all insisted on breathing throughout the journey, misting then frosting up our windscreen, Dave having to constantly reach over with bits of paper towel in a vain attempt to provide visibility ahead. Then on the next trip around the 517 Queens Road Circular it became so cold inside that the windscreen froze over on both sides and any attempts to scrape off the ice were thwarted by it immediately freezing over again. We had to finally stop and abandon any hope of continuing the journey for quite a while until I think eventually we were causing such an obstruction that a sympathetic motorist lent us the remains of his de-icer spray and we were just about able to find our way back to Garage in a series of starts and stops.
We also had four more of the batch (102-105), but these had the more conventional flat fronts. They too – like all early Fleetlines – had very heavy steering, but the bodies seemed to be very solid and rattle-free in comparison with the ex-Halifax Northern Counties-bodied Fleetlines, which I thoroughly disliked.

John Stringer

15/01/16 – 06:28

Reading the comments above, I am surprised that no one thought of specifying heated windscreens. I seem to recall them on Hants & Dorset Bristol MWs in the early sixties, which certainly did not have to cope with the more severe weather found in Yorkshire.

David Wragg

15/01/16 – 06:30

101 was the Roe exhibit at the 1964 Earls Court show. Originally finished in traditional Leeds livery plus gold lining out. It was originally fitted with forced ventilation on both decks but following complaints from the public opening windows were fitted in the upper deck.
Like many of LCTs rear engined fleet 101 wore at least three liveries The original the later one man reversed livery and the Metro livery seen here.

On the subject of seating capacity Leeds had no thirty footers with more than 70 seats the largest 33ft deckers only seated 78 The first 30ft types with more than 70 seats were ordered and delivered to the PTE.

Chris Hough

15/01/16 – 14:44

It is not strictly true to say that the first 30ft deckers delivered to Leeds with more than 70 seats were ordered by the P.T.E.
Leylands 221-291, 5221-5291 NW, Daimlers 502-531, 7502-7531 UA and A.E.C.s 910-923, 3910-3923 UB delivered between 1958 and 1960 seated H39/32R when they entered service.
They were altered to H38/32R between August and October 1960 following a National Agreement on standing capacity which meant that buses with more than 70 seats were restricted to a maximum of 5 standing passengers whilst those with not more than 70 could carry 8 standing passengers.

John Kaye

15/01/16 – 17:06

David, the earliest buses I came across with heated windscreens were the final (1969) batch of Plaxton/Roadliners at PMT where we certainly had problems with heaters and demisters (tell me an undertaking that didn’t). You can’t believe the difficulties in getting hot water to flow round 60 feet of pipework.

Ian Wild

16/01/16 – 06:07

Ian. Thought on Roadliners screens were prone to jumping out which only makes demisters the preferred option

Roger Burdett

16/01/16 – 06:12

In that case, Ian, I must have made a mistake. Certainly the Marshall-bodied AEC Reliances of Aldershot & District had such screens around that time, but as regards the Hants & Dorset MWs, put that down to old age!
I can imagine the difficulties in getting heat around vehicles as they grew longer and engines moved from end to the other. More a case of needing a plumber than a mechanic.

David Wragg

16/01/16 – 06:12

Roe never seemed to quite get the "hang of" being able (or could be bothered?) to match-up the top and side profiles of curved windscreens with adjacent body-work, whether single or double-beck – the impression, to me, is of something just cut into bodywork designed for something else. I hope the near-side windscreen wiper was re-fitted before it entered service. And, John, a double-deck on the 517/8 – that was a bit optimistic as regards loadings wasn’t it? with a conductor you must have outnumbered the passenger.

Philip Rushworth

17/01/16 – 06:33

Yes Philip, if I remember rightly there were occasions when we carried nobody at all for the whole round trip, and if not then there were never more than two or three. The service by then was interworked with other routes and this particular AM trip just happened to slot in nicely to a crew operated double-deck working.
Commencing on 9th November,1925 this fairly short circular route served a densely populated area and in its heyday(as the 25 Inner Circle – same number both ways)had been operated by double deckers on a 20 minute (three peaks)or 30 minute (off-peak) frequency, and running throughout the evening. Renumbered 7 (clockwise) or 8 (anti-clocwise) on 24th October 1955 the timetable remained pretty much the same throughout the 1950’s and 60’s. On 29th September 1968 it was combined with the Beechwood Road route becoming cross-town routes 17/18) and converted to OMO single deck operation. The evening service was withdrawn on 27th May 1970. From 20th November 1972 the Beechwood Road section was incorporated into the 3 Hungerhill Estate service, so the 17/18 now reverted to just a Queens Road circular again. On 4th December 1972 it was diverted to also serve Richmond Road, by which time it ran hourly each way. Renumbered 517/518 by WYPTE it was reduced to just four trips per weekday from 12th January 1981, and was withdrawn altogether from 26th October 1986 when the newly created Yorkshire Rider diverted alternate Wainstalls journeys via Queens Road as route 524.

John Stringer

17/01/16 – 06:34

Notably the first C H Roe customer to ask for an Alexander type double curvature windscreen was the then General Manger at Great Yarmouth.
By the time this bus was transferred to Halifax the same man was Engineering Director of the PTE and prior to that he had been General Manager of Halifax and Todmorden.

This shot shows how Roe didn’t put a taper in the front end, unlike Alexander who did: www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/

Stephen Allcroft

17/01/16 – 12:22

That would be the late Geoffrey Hilditch then. A Bus Engineer through and through, the likes of which the Bus Industry will never see again.

Stephen Howarth

17/01/16 – 17:12

Lincoln also bought a batch of Atlanteans with this style of bodywork.

Chris Hough

28/09/20 – 05:33

Reading through all the comments its clear there are some very serious and knowledgeable people that know which brake pads go on which buses.
I am an enthusiast in my own way. I used to be a conductor for Leeds City Transport from 1967 to 1969. Mainly rear loaders (layman’s term) but during that time I remember OMO (one man operated) buses arriving which I was told had been on trial in Leicester I think. At the time these buses were absolute luxury and I remember going to various depots looking for overtime and being thrilled on the front loaders and being a conductor on them. Equally brilliant were the single decker’s which did the inner ring road route. I’m now approaching 70 and can tell anyone and everyone that even after spending 22 years in the Royal Navy and seeing most of the world, being a bus conductor was the proudest job I ever had.

Mike Booth

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1965
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Harrington C49F

CDK 448C is quite clearly a 1965 Leyland Leopard with Harrington body, as seen in the first view. She is of the PSU3/3R variety although some sources have her as a PSU3/3RT, while the seating is of the C49F layout. She is seen at the Harrington Event at Amberley on 3 June 2012. There has been some discussion in these pages about the resemblance of the leaping cat badge seen in the second view to the Royal Tiger badge on the front of Leyland’s product. Indeed, the company history, as set out by Eric Ogden, comments thus:
"The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the early 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland."
The device faces forward on both sides, so Leyland must have used that on the offside of the Ellen Smith vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

10/01/16 – 10:54

Thanks to Pete Davies for his posting. I had wondered about the side logo since taking a few shots of this splendid vehicle at the Bus Meet-Bewdley 2013. I would be very interested in future posts relating to its history.

Nigel Edwards

11/01/16 – 06:51

What a great coach of the era, they were far better built and did not rattle in later life.

Mike

11/01/16 – 09:24

Thank you, Nigel and Mike. I’ve wondered at intervals over the years which were the better-built vehicles, Duple, Harrington or Plaxton. Of course, I know that will provoke some comment on here!!!!!

Pete Davies

11/01/16 – 13:39

There were a couple of glimpses of an Ellen Smith coach at the end of Endeavour last night. Is this the only one in livery? And would it have worked in the Oxford area in period?

John Lomas

11/01/16 – 13:40

This lovely coach appeared towards the end of an episode of ‘Endeavour’ on ITV Sunday 10 January 2015.
Note that in the photograph the coach carries an ‘On hire to Yelloway’ window label. I have seen various photographs of the coach with this addition. However, it is perhaps the strangest item in respect of 1960s/1970s authenticity one can have on an Ellen Smith’s coach. Both Ellen Smith and Yelloway heralded from the Lancashire town of Rochdale and were great competitors. Hubert Allen and Harry Smith got together to discuss matters of mutual benefit or business interest but that was the extent of it. During my time at Yelloway in the late 1960s/early 1970s there was never any inter-hiring as far as I can recall. They did, in later years, participate in a joint service to Morecambe.
I recall on a number of occasions when I worked at Yelloway being sent over to Newgate to furtively spy on Ellen’s excursion departures see if their loadings looked better than ours. What was a little irritating to me as I did my absolute best at playing an undercover spy was that most of the passengers recognised me and gave me a wave as they went by!

David Slater

11/01/16 – 13:40

Pete. You have to factor in chassis as well. Flexing chassis can distort even the best built body. I have a Harrington on a PS1 which while sumptuous is quite a rattlebox yet my friend has same body on a PS2 and it is rock solid

Roger Burdett

11/01/16 – 16:03

Even Mrs B noticed the coach on the TV last night. Whilst an excursion may have taken one of Smith’s coaches into Morse territory, the use of the coach in the context of the programme’s plot did not fit.
A shame really as the previous week the use of two preserved Oxford double deckers was very much in context.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/01/16 – 16:05

You noticed, David! I wondered who would be first. I thought it a bit of an oddity when I saw the sticker. I can’t tell from Nigel’s view whether it appears there or not.
Interesting comment, Roger! I’d have thought there might be a difference between, say, AEC and Guy affecting the way the body moved or didn’t, but I wouldn’t have expected it between models from the same line. Ah well, We live and learn!

Pete Davies

11/01/16 – 16:06

For me Pete, all through my driving days I aspired to one day having charge of a Harrington, be it AEC or Leyland no matter! It never happened . .
I agree with Roger, the rattles depend a great deal on Chassis, a Duple on a R226 SO different to an AEC or Leyland. My personal pet hate was a Yeates – always seemed to leak around the myriad rubber window seals.

Nigel Edwards

12/01/16 – 05:51

I doubt that Ellen Smith vehicles would have visited the Oxford area on any regular basis as most of their operations were in the north west. They did a good deal of business in the winter months running supporter’s coaches for the away games of Rochdale Hornets. They also provided the team coach, complete with distinctive headboard for many years. Many’s the trip I made across Lancashire and Yorkshire to far flung destinations such as Dewsbury, Batley, Leigh, Widnes and numerous other rugby league playing towns. It was usually on one of the earlier Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards. The fleet was always immaculately turned out and the fares were always very reasonable. A truly quality operation.

Philip Halstead

12/01/16 – 08:22

I made a day trip with Ellen Smith from Rochdale to the 1974 Commercial Motor Show at Earl’s Court. The transport was a Plaxton Panorama Elite-bodied Leyland Leopard. The main thing I remember is the rather low back seats which were a bit of a surprise for such a long trip, although they were more than bus seats.

David Beilby

20/01/16 – 09:21

The latest episode of Endevour had a Burlingham Seagull coach in a red and blue livery dropping a character off in central Oxford. Sadly it was too far away to see what it was.

Chris Hough

20/01/16 – 17:13

The Seagull was the preserved Whittles of Kidderminster Seagull on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis owned by Bernard Rodgers of Bewdley. His standard of presentation is always top class and it could be argued looked too good for the role of delivering passengers back from holidays.

Roger Burdett

Hills of Stockingford
1955
Bedford SBG
Duple C41F

This is a Bedford SBG with a Duple C41F body that has a complicated history. It was first registered on 31 December 1955 as TUE 132, and, from 1 January 1956, went to Hills of Stockingford, near Nuneaton, Warwickshire. The vehicle, chassis number 41422, body number 1060/158, passed to Skills of Nottingham in October 1989. In July 1998 Skills swapped its registration, chassis and body numbers with another Duple bodied SBG registered 6 EBH, chassis number 62553 and body number 1090/150. The purpose of this exercise is perplexing. The former 6 EBH went to John Burton Coaches of Alfreton in June 1999 until scrapped early in 2001. It is unclear how this surviving SB acquired the number 748 UYL. Though originally an SBG (gasoline) example, it now possesses a diesel engine, type uncertain. It currently resides in the car park of a garden centre, “The Walled Garden at Elton Hall”, at the village of Elton in Huntingdonshire. Before this it spent its time parked on the side of the main road through the village, as seen in this picture. Internally, the body is completely gutted, though it does not appear that any active restoration is in progress.
I acknowledge the flickr site of John Wakefield as the source of this information.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

07/01/16 – 06:27

It acquired the ‘age related’ (748 UYL) when the previous owner transferred 6 EBH off onto his car. The current owner now looks to have changed his plans, its back on sale on the //www.carandclassic.co.uk for £24000 plus VAT Previous owner restored chassis & body exterior leaving the interior to be completed, the seats & interior were sold with coach so presumably in store somewhere.

John Wakefield

07/01/16 – 08:57

Thanks for filling in the last bits of the jigsaw, John. Having seen this Bedford languishing in Elton for some time, I decided to photograph it and send it to OBP to glean some information about it. I then discovered that your flikr site had already identified its unusual history.

Roger Cox

07/01/16 – 08:57

Out of interest, if Skill’s swapped the registration, body number, and chassis number, between the two coaches, how does it come to be known that an exchange of identity took place? Were there obvious differences between the two vehicles?
BLOTW gives the original 6 EBH as SB3 – was there any difference between the SBG and SB3 models or was it simply an updating of the code?

David Call

07/01/16 – 11:36

The change was recorded by PSVC & is common knowledge among enthusiasts. There is a difference in age of the vehicles 6 EBH is 1958 & TUE 132 1955. There are small detail differences in the bodies, the front indicator lights for one. TUE has the horizontal ‘tear drop’ type on front corners & 6 EBH had vertical ones set further back. 6 EBH had both windscreen wiper spindles at the bottom of windscreens, TUE 132 has the drivers side in the upper edge. Why Skills did the swop is unclear but presumably to get a nice ‘cherished’ number, I suppose as the vehicles were, to the untrained eye, virtually identical I don’t suppose anyone (including the ministry), noticed. I think by that time 6 EBH was in poor condition & TUE 132 was the better coach. Both the SBG & SB3 had the same 300 cu-in petrol engine, the SBG had a 17ft 2in wheelbase this was lengthened in 1955 to 18ft & became the SB1 (300 diesel) SB3 (300 petrol) or SB5 (330 diesel)

John Wakefield

07/01/16 – 17:08

The SBG (petrol)/SBO (Perkins R6 diesel)) designation continued after the lengthening of the wheelbase in 1955 to 18ft.6in., only becoming SB3 (petrol)/SB1 (Bedford 300 diesel)/SB8 (Leyland 0350 diesel) from 1957. In terms of Duple Super Vegas this occurred part way through the 1074-series of body numbers. The SB5 (Bedford 330 diesel) replaced the SB1 from late 1961, the change taking place during the production of the 1045-series Super Vega.

John Stringer

08/01/16 – 06:47

How legal was this swapping of plates and identity? In this day and age it would be called ‘a ringer’.

Stephen Howarth

08/01/16 – 12:08

Copyright Stuart Johnson

Here is photo of the ‘real’ 6 EBH when with Canham of Whittlesey.

John Wakefield

15/03/16 – 05:44

Roger, any further news on 748 UYL, is it still at the garden centre at Elton? if so maybe you could take another pic.

John Wakefield

17/03/16 – 05:01

Yes, John, it’s still at the garden centre called The Walled Garden at Elton Hall. It hasn’t moved since my original posting in January, and no work on the interior seems to have been undertaken either. This picture was taken on 16 March.

Roger Cox

04/08/16 – 11:18

When I last looked at this Bedford very recently, no work had been done on its gutted interior. It has now gone from the Elton Hall car park.

Roger Cox

20/08/17 – 07:08

748 UYL was at East Coast Upholstery in Pickering on 16/7/17 when I took these photos, it was still there 13/8/17, still no seats, but must be having some fitted!

Michael Davies

01/11/17 – 07:19

I was searching for some sort of picture of this:
"Known vehicle: XBH 777 Bedford SBG 46298 1/56 , 5/63, 3/66 Duple C41F (1060/352). New to Jeffways Coaches, High Wycombe, Jeffways and Pilot Coaches, High Wycombe 5/60."
I was very kindly helped to do some research by several people, but a computer problem a year or two ago led to me losing their contact details and some of the explanations that they gave me!
Can someone please de-code the bit in quotes for me?? and tell me if this photo would be a good approximation of the vehicle referred to.

Joanna Wheatland

02/11/17 – 06:38

BH 777
Bedford
SBG Chassis type-SB Model G= Gasoline (i.e. Petrol engined).
46298 = Bedford Chassis number.
1/56 = Date new.
5/63, 3/66 not known.
Duple = Body manufacturer
C41F = 41 seater coach with a front entrance.
1060/352 = Duple body number.

David Hick

04/11/17 – 06:49

The answer to the last part of Joanna’s question is yes.

Peter Williamson

04/11/17 – 06:54

Re 748 UYL (TUE 132) I have recently spoken to Neil at Eastgate Coach Trimmers, Pickering (not East Coast Upholstery) he has now recovered the seats & has now to trim out the interior. I asked him who the owner was & he was reluctant to tell me, just that it was a private owner in Essex & he would pass on my contact details. Have heard no more.

John Wakefield

04/03/18 – 06:54

Apparently 748 UYL (TUE 132) is bound for New Zealand. It went from Pickering in early Feb into temp storage in the Peterborough area. The new owner (Brent Cooper) a New Zealand resident. It is not known what use Mr Cooper will make of the SB, possibly part of a vehicle collection. Current NZ Construction & Use regulations do not permit wooded bodied buses & coaches. Readers may remember the saga of OB JAB 867 that went to NZ in 2006 but had to be returned to UK after owner could not get it certified for PSV use. I dont suppose the number plate issue will be relevant to owner now, as it will have to have a new registration when it gets there.

John Wakefield

07/02/20 – 06:22

Coach for sale on ebay 6 Feb. 2020

Dennis Rolls

03/11/20 – 06:18

748 UYL has been spotted on land off the A40 junction with Hanger Lane, London, which had prior to Covid been used to park the fleet of Contiki Holidays.

John Wakefield

16/11/20 – 08:27

My son rode on this Bedford on Saturday 14th November on the E2 (Greenford-Brentford). Any info on why it was being used?

Niall Spencer

12/12/20 – 06:36

Niall Spencer. Are you sure it was this Bedford (748 UYL) that your son rode on? As far as I can see its been untaxed since 1/8/16 and in fact has an export marker showing on the DVLA listing!

Vehicle Details
Vehicle make BEDFORD
Date of first registration June 1958
Year of manufacture 1958
Cylinder capacity 99999 cc
CO2 emissions Not available
Fuel type PETROL
Euro status Not available
Real Driving Emissions (RDE) Not available
Export marker Yes
Vehicle status Untaxed
Vehicle colour GREEN
Vehicle type approval Not available
Wheelplan NOT RECORDED
Revenue weight Not available
Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 21 August 2015

John Wakefield

14/12/20 – 07:11

I believe it was this one, as he texted me the reg, knowing I have an interest in buses and coaches. He also said it was an old streamlined green Bedford.

Niall Spencer

15/12/20 – 06:54

Niall I find this very odd, not only is the coach not taxed (all be it free), but it has ‘officially’ been exported. further more it is not insured according to ASKMID! Whilst I am not familiar with the E2 Greenford – Brentford service I find it strange that TfL would allow an old 1955 coach to operate illegally on one of their routes. Had it have done so I am sure someone would have taken a pic and posted it on Facebook etc. Did your son get a photo?

John Wakefield

16/12/20 – 10:55

This isn’t part of the current discussion, but the original picture makes me think of the Matchbox series Bedford SB coach produced in the 1950’s/60’s. I think it was their No.21. The green colour is an almost perfect match. I had eleven of them in my "fleet", along with the double deckers and trolleybuses from their series. Some survive with in the grand childrens’ box of items. Goodness me, these toys are as old as the real one above!

Michael Hampton

17/12/20 – 11:55

Unfortunately he was on his way to work, as a BTP Police Officer, so was unable to get a pic. He did mention it was a bit of a shock when it stopped at his bus stop and he had to ask if it was the E2. There was a person onboard collecting contactless payments.
This is becoming a very interesting occurrence.

Niall Spencer

21/12/20 – 06:59

Niall I have since been in touch with the owner of 748UYL and it was certainly not the vehicle that your son saw on the E2. As I suspected the Bedford has not been on the road! So looks like mistaken identity.

John Wakefield

21/12/20 – 11:38

At least we have got to the bottom of it.
Will question him next time I can see him.

Niall Spencer