With – Newcastle Corporation
1963
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H44/34F

565 CRW; 1963 H44/34F Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX demonstrator:
Over the years, Newcastle Corporation had quite a number of Daimlers, both double and single deck, with a variety of bodies from different coachbuilders, but with the demise of the half cab in favour of front entrance rear engine buses they stayed very firmly entrenched in the Leyland camp. However, that’s not to say that they didn’t dip a toe in the water. This Daimler demonstrator pictured at Tynemouth is on loan to Newcastle Corporation. The service 11 ran from Newcastle Haymarket to Tynemouth, and was shared by NCT and NGT’s Percy Main depot. When it first started in 1928, the operating licences were divided equally between Newcastle Corporation, Tynemouth and District Transport, and Wakefields Motors Ltd. Wakefields subsequently became part of the NGT group, but all their operators licences remained in their name, so officially, three Percy Main vehicles on this route either had to carry the Wakefields name, or display an ‘On hire to Wakefields’ sticker, needless to say, this was a formality that was frequently overlooked.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

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24/02/14 – 07:50

Two Demonstrators were shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show, one was a chassis, the other a CRD6 model, with chassis No.60000, the well known 7000HP, in Birmingham City Transport livery, shown above.

This bus later ended up with the Blue Bus Services (Tailby and George) fleet at Willington in Derbyshire, and was totally destroyed in the disastrous fire in January 1976. See here:- www.stephenhowarth.co.uk/ 

Blue Bus Services (Tailby and George) also took 5 more Fleetlines one of which was the first production chassis – 60003, bodies by Northern Counties in 1962, 324 YNU. Seen here in the 3rd picture negotiating flood waters (just shows they are not a modern problem as the press would have us think), on the Derby to Burton via Etwall service, later to be numbered 46 by Derby Borough Transport on the takeover by that concern in 1974.

Stephen Howarth

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25/02/14 – 14:42

Thanks for posting this, Ronnie. I found it rather intriguing! The vehicle shown is, indeed 565 CRW, and I have a bought colour shot of her in a livery with slightly more cream. What intrigues me is that I have vague memories of a Daimler/Alexander demonstrator with an awkwardly similar registration, namely 595 CRW. Were there really two of them, or is my memory card in need of replacement???

Pete Davies

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25/02/14 – 17:14

Here’s another demonstrator on the 11 Tynemouth to Newcastle, arriving at the Haymarket. Photo by Bob Mack.
Atlantean SGD 669 started life as Glasgow Corporation LA91 then returned to Leyland for use as a demonstrator, afterwards moving on to the Fishwick fleet in Leyland as their no. 34.
IIRC it was in Newcastle during 1964, AFTER the Corporation had committed to this style of bodywork in 1963 on the first trolleybus replacement Atlanteans (1-12 JVK) so I’m not sure what it was demonstrating at the time! Or was it working with Tynemouth, Ronnie?
Does anyone know why this vehicle was chosen for its wider role? Did it initially have any features different from the Glasgow standard? I think (fatal!) that its green panels were changed to matching yellow for its time in Newcastle, so perhaps other modifications happened as well. Did it run in Glasgow colours while in Halifax?

Tony Fox

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26/02/14 – 07:40

Glasgow had loaned different Atlanteans to Leyland for demonstration work. Theirs were 30′-8" long and with this stylish Alexander body would have conveyed the modern image of a bus that Leyland would wish to portray. Glasgow and Leyland came to an agreement to part with LA91, replaced later with LA202, presumably to make a vehicle immediately available to Leyland. A six-month wait would risk letting Daimler seize the opportunity. As a demonstrator its Glasgow livery was certainly changed to one more like the Newcastle one, without the green.
I am pretty sure there was no 595 CRW, or at least a Fleetline with that number, but 565 CRW certainly demonstrated in two liveries as it appeared at Halifax in both guises.

David Beilby

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26/02/14 – 07:41

Can’t say for certain, Tony. I started at Percy Main in January 1967, so this was before my time, however, by 1963, T&D had 22 PDR1/1’s, which was roughly a quarter of the D/D fleet. In 1963, they took delivery of the first of two batches of Weymann bodied CRG6LX Fleetlines, followed by three batches of Alexander bodied versions in 65/7&8. I lived close to Percy Main depot, and took a keen interest in what went on. From memory, demonstrators were usually to be found working the very busy stop start Whitley Bay to Lobley Hill Gateshead service 1, which was a greater test of stamina than the equally busy but less demanding service 11. If you want my opinion, I would say that it was with NCT rather than Tynemouth.

Ronnie Hoye

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26/02/14 – 07:43

Pete, there were no other Fleetline demonstrators around at the time of 565 CRW. I think it replaced 4559VC, a Northern Counties-bodied example which went on to spend many years with Procter’s of Hanley.
Tony, although SGD 669 is nowadays widely-referred to as being ‘ex-Glasgow’, I have to cast doubt on the notion that it actually reached there. Leyland had already, on separate occasions, borrowed two Glasgow Atlanteans, I think they were LA6 and LA83. It was then announced that Glasgow had agree to ‘sell’ LA91 – but it is my recollection that at that time deliveries had not reached that point, and, if that was the case, LA91 would still be in build. Also, it does seem unlikely that Leyland would buy back an already-delivered vehicle when identical ones were still being completed at the rate of, probably, two a week.
SGD 669 took up its demonstration duties in mock Newcastle Corporation livery – there again, why repaint a bus after a week or two in service, when one could be painted to order from scratch?
You’ll see that I said Glasgow had agreed to ‘sell’ LA91 – but it was ultimately replaced by LA152, which was effectively added to the next order for fifty similar buses. So the situation would appear to have been a bit more involved than a simple ‘sale’.
To the question of whether it ran in Halifax in Glasgow colours, I’m obviously doubting that it ever received those colours, and I’m pretty certain that it didn’t do any demonstrating in them.
There’s actually already a page on OBP devoted to SGD 669. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=581

David Call

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26/02/14 – 07:45

When the Atlantean was demonstrated in Aberdeen it was painted yellow and cream Newcastle style.
From memory it had also been in France, the wording on the offside was "Ici Le Leyland Atlantean 78 places".
565 CRW saw service with both Grahams of Paisley and Moffat and Williamson of Gauldry.

Stephen Bloomfield

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26/02/14 – 12:10

565 CRW demonstrated at Halifax three times. The first time, in April 1964, it was in a different livery to that depicted above, using a deep brownish maroon and a rich cream. It returned to Halifax in October 1964 to demonstrate to Hebble in the same livery. It returned to the Corporation again in September 1965, by which time it had been repainted in the Edinburgh style with a lighter, more Edinburgh-like red, but with more of an ivory relief colour, rather than Edinburgh’s white. It paid a longer third visit in August/September 1966, just prior to the Corporation’s own first Fleetlines being delivered, still in the same livery. I think much of its extended stay involved some engineering familiarisation.
SGD 669 demonstrated to Halifax in May/June 1964. It was in a Newcastle-style livery, and I recall the interior was rather plain with a lot of darkish green rexene. It returned to the area to demonstrate to Hebble in October/November 1964. There is a nice photo of it working for Halifax Corporation here: www.sct61.org.uk/hxsgd699

John Stringer

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26/02/14 – 13:06

Something has just struck me regarding the Alexander body. On such a modern design for the period, why did they continue with rear mudguards when others had abandoned them? It looks particularly odd given the lack of matching ones for the front wheels.

Phil Blinkhorn

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26/02/14 – 14:11

If memory serves, Phil, the rear wings were rubber, and so less prone to accidental damage when removing the wheels, especially the inners.

Ronnie Hoye

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27/02/14 – 07:38

Here is Daimler Fleetline 565 CRW in King Cross Road, Halifax en route from Hebden Bridge to Brighouse when on hire to HPTD in the summer of 1965. The picture was taken late in the evening when I spotted the bus and just managed to get off a shot (with entirely guessed exposure settings) as I walked home, hence the indifferent quality of the picture.

Roger Cox

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28/02/14 – 07:54

The hopper windows were uncommon in those days, I can’t recall any local Operators using them (ECW fitted them to Lodekkas etc). Was this body tagged on to one for regular Alexander users (Glasgow or SBG?) Maybe they specified them? They look much neater tan sliders.

Ian Wild

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01/03/14 – 13:36

565 CRW had an A-type body with body number A/1363. Alexander’s body numbering was a bit erratic at the time as they kept changing the system, but the only other A-types ordered around the same time seem to have been A/1663 for AA, Ayr (XSD 430); A/1963 for McGill, Barrhead (AHS 16B); A/2063 for Graham, Paisley (HXS 864). Looking at photos of these three on the web show that all had normal sliding windows.

John Stringer

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29/06/14 – 07:17

I am sure 565 CRW worked for Harper Bros (Heath Hayes) as a demonstrator for a while in the mid sixties, but if my memory is correct there was a lot more cream livery on it then.

Keith Harley

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20/11/15 – 14:12

Significant information just published in Buses Mag December 2015 page 84 reveals that 565 CRW was shown at 1963 Scottish Motor Show in Glasgow Corporation colours, finished to Glasgow spec.
Having a life-long interest in Fleetlines I was not aware of this but Alan Millar confirms this was the case. Buses Illustrated January 1964 issue page 7 states "By the time this column went to press no order had been placed by G.C.T. for another Fleetline" (GCT already had SGD 730, new in May 1963) "But the Show model was finished in G.C.T. colours and to G.C.T. specification" Has anyone seen a picture of 565 CRW in Glasgow colours?

Jim Neale

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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25/10/16 – 14:22

I always liked that Alexander body style on Atlanteans and Fleetlines. Bury had 15 on Fleetline chassis, 117-131, later Selnec 6317-31. They were the only ones in the combined fleet after the PTE took over with the highbridge version of the body, although North Western had quite a few with the low height version. Bury had one of those for a short time, YJA 2, in overall advertising livery for Quicks for Ford.

David Pomfret

Birmingham City Transport
1965
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
MCCW H39/33F

BON 541C is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6 with Metropolitan Cammell body, new to Birmingham City Transport in 1965, with fleet number 3541. On the formation of West Midlands PTE, all she had was a change of lettering in what some of the neighbouring authorities considered to be a take-over by Birmingham. We see her at Elmdon Airport on 23 July 1977, ready to return to High Street on the 58. I liked the use of the third blind, showing TO CITY or FROM CITY, but I know not everyone did.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

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22/08/13 – 17:44

Needs a picture like this to remind me I came to Birmingham in 1970 to Aston University and travelled on buses like this every day from my digs in the suburbs. I also like the to/from city when used, it helped give directions to fellow students. Forty years this year since I graduated and that’s 4 years before this picture was taken – thanks for bringing back my unversity memories. In 1977 I would be involved in the Queen’s Jubilee – more memories.

Ken Jones

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23/08/13 – 06:20

Thanks for the comment, Ken. I was a student at Saltley mid to late 60’s. This view was captured during a lunch stop on my way up to the Lake District.

Pete Davies

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23/08/13 – 15:36

Peter’s shot also reminded me of my days in Brum. In a previous life I worked (28 years) for Woolworth. From 1970 – 1972 I was Deputy Manager of the New Street branch. As I lived near Hagley Road I would use the 6 (Sandon Road), 7 (Portland Road) or 9 (Quinton). Whilst these were often served by the old Birmingham standards, evenings and weekends would be rear-engined buses. These were more comfortable than the 7’6" standards but lacked the character. Thanks for posting this shot Peter.

Les Dickinson

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23/08/13 – 15:37

Interesting comment about the West Midlands PTE being a virtual Birmingham take-over particularly in terms of the livery. This applied to some extent with all the first four PTE’s with the exception of SELNEC. Liverpool green in various hues dominated on Merseyside after initially allowing Birkenhead’s blue to continue on the Wirral for a while and South Shields disappeared in a sea of Yellow on Tyneside. The livery here was virtually Newcastle Corporation with a new logo. Only in the north west did something completely different come out of the hat with SELNEC’s dazzling Sunglow Orange and White. You either loved it or hated it but you definitely could not ignore it.

Philip Halstead

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23/08/13 – 17:48

Thanks for your comments, Les and Philip. One of my friends hails from Wolverhampton and becomes very cross when people comment on his "Brummy" accent. The polite bit of his reply – very apt for this site – includes "I’m not a Brummy. I’m a Wulfrunian!"

Pete Davies

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23/08/13 – 17:49

To be fair to the MPTE the Liverpool livery only survived on that side of the Mersey while the Wirral had a composite of Birkenhead and Wallasey colours.
When a standard MPTE livery was finally imposed the Verona Green was a very different shade of green applied far more sparingly than the overall LCPTD green livery.

Rob McCaffery

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23/08/13 – 19:11

The ‘To/From City’ display was because BCT did not change blinds at the outer terminus, so a bus on the 9 would still be showing Quinton, even when heading into the City! This was partly mitigated by each bus stop flag displaying To or From City as appropriate. The To/From blind was thus some sort of progress.

Tony Martin

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24/08/13 – 11:51

The Birmingham policy on not changing destination blinds at outer termini is a strange one. How did it work on cross-city routes? Destination blinds can throw up some strange and interesting quirks. Hull for example for many years did not show an end destination at all, only a ‘via’ blind was shown under the route number for the main road served. Salford didn’t have the word ‘Salford’ on its blinds at all as all the inner city termini were either over the Irwell in Manchester or branded as ‘Victoria’ for their bus station by the old Manchester Exchange station. I once heard that a publicity photo was being taken for a new delivery of Salford buses and to show the city’s name in the destination space required the word to be pasted onto the negative by artwork. (Obviously it was well before the age of digital trickery!).

Philip Halstead

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24/08/13 – 15:20

On BCT’s cross city routes, buses always showed the ultimate destination. The to/from city on bus stop flags was considered enough.

Tony Martin

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25/08/13 – 06:35

Tony, am I right in thinking that at least some of the Cross City services had – for example – 15 Handsworth in one direction and 16 Selly Oak in the other?
What many folk must have found utterly confusing was the idea of setting the blind at SERVICE EXTRA but not showing a number. It seems to have died out – fortunately – when the last buses with service number and destination on one roll were withdrawn!

Pete Davies

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25/08/13 – 08:50

‘Victoria’ was used on Salford’s blinds for intra urban routes. Longer distance routes from Bolton, Warrington etc showed ‘Manchester’ as the destination though they terminated in Salford albeit often at the dingy Greengate tunnel adjacent to Victoria bus station. I believe that ‘Salford’ only appeared in the destination boxes on the covers of such publications as timetables.
Manchester buses never showed ‘Manchester’ in the final destination box save for service 6 from Glossop which detailed ‘Manchester’ and in very small print, Lower Mosley Street (the only MCTD route to terminate there).

Orla Nutting

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25/08/13 – 08:50

Many Tilling and BET companies had the policy of using a combination of the route number and "duplicate" with no destination shown. Useful no doubt for any inspector along the route but pointless for the intending passenger, especially in seaside and other holiday areas where heavy loadings in summer saw the practice in wide use.

Phil Blinkhorn

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25/08/13 – 11:29

Orla, whilst you are 100% correct regarding the Salford blinds, Manchester Chorlton St appeared on the blinds of the half decker airport buses when the city terminus was moved there from Royal Exchange and a regular headway was introduced rather than the flight specific service that had operated previously. The destination was an addition to the existing blind. When in later years the service was numbered 200 and operated by Bedford VALs the same destination appeared . All airport services were operated by Parrs Wood depot.
All service buses running into Chorlton St showed "Manchester Chorlton St". The routes involved during the 1960s were 19 from Hattersley (Hyde Rd depot), 20/20X from Woodford/Poynton (Birchfields depot), 31 from Bramhall (Parrs Wood depot), 33 from Greave, 33X from Stockport Andrew Sq, 34 from Romiley (all Hyde Rd depot), 59 from Shaw (Queens Rd/Rochdale Rd depots), 74 from Stockport Vernon Park (Parrs Wood depot), 121 Langley (Queens Rd/Rochdale Rd), 124 from Haughton Green, 125 from Old Glossop, 126 Haughton Green (all Hyde Rd), 148X from Wythenshawe Civic Centre (Northenden depot), 152 from Sales Woodheys (Princess Rd depot), 160 from Denton Moorfield Estate (Hyde Rd depot), 207/208/209 all from Hattersley (Hyde Rd depot), 500 from Alderley, 503 from Adswood Greyhound (both Parrs Wood).
Admittedly photos showing blinds set to the destination are uncommon due in part to the restricted use of the facility before it was then encased by a multi-storey car park which almost precluded photography due to the stygian gloom. "The Manchester Bus" has a Burlingham bodied Tiger Cub half decker displaying the blind on page 232 and an Aberdonian on page 357. The Colours of Greater Manchester has a blue Tiger Cub showing the destination on page 18.

Phil Blinkhorn

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As a rider to my previous post, all the routes for which the Manchester Chorlton St destination was shown, with the exception of the 148X, originated outside the city boundaries and this may have been the reason -though routes from outside to Piccadilly, Cannon St, Stevensons Sq, Albert Sq or Exchange never had the need to show Manchester.

Phil Blinkhorn

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25/08/13 – 16:08

Manchester did eventually make good on the services to Saddleworth at least as I have pictures of PD2s showing Manchester Stevenson Square, but these are in late SELNEC and GMT days. There had no doubt been a need for new blinds to cover new destinations and these would be the same as fitted to the rest of the fleet. They were certainly more modern blinds.
Having thus made good the Manchester-centred approach reared its head again in the eighties, when buses terminating at the Manchester Arndale Centre showed "Arndale" as the destination. This despite the fact that there at least two other Arndales in the Manchester area to my knowledge at Middleton and Stretford.

David Beilby

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25/08/13 – 18:02

Yes, BCT cross city routes used different numbers according to direction. But still confusing for strangers!

Tony Martin

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26/08/13 – 14:24

Amiss of me not to mention that the situation on the Manchester blinds was only prior to the opening of Chorlton Street bus station. Thanks for the correction.

Orla Nutting

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26/08/13 – 17:06

I spent many hours travelling the 28 in Birmingham and that never changed numbers and often was a open platform bus. I did it as it was one of the longest routes across the city, and conductors told me no-one does the whole route [well except students with nothing better to do] so passengers don’t need to know if it’s going to the city or not as there are quicker services. Passengers used it mainly to get from one suburb to another. Then we had the 28E which only went part of the route and we still have the famous 11A, 11C and 11E.

Back to the picture and here’s 3913 built in 1969, it was one of the final batch of buses ordered by Birmingham Corporation but delivered to WMPTE immediately after its formation and now preserved at Wythall Transport Museum it is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with a Park Royal H47/33D body.

Ken Jones

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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28/08/13 – 05:45

I seem to remember Leicester was another city that specialised in cross city routes, that were numbered differently in opposite directions according to ultimate destination. I never knew the network well, but seem to remember that Eyres Monsell in one direction, became Stocking Farm in the other, with completely different (and non-sequential) numbers.

Stephen Ford

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02/09/13 – 05:54

Stephen, towards Eyres Monsell 88, towards Stocking Farm 54 BUT only if crossing the City Centre – journeys terminating in the City Centre showed the outward number. The City Centre – Eyres Monsell section (88) was joint with BMMO, but operated entirely by LCT . . . as indeed were all other "joint services", operated solely by one or the other partner. Returning to Birmingham, am I right in thinking that on the joint Dudley Road services BMMO had special "lazy displays" which showed eg. "Birmingham & Dudley"? What was BCTs practice on its share – did it persist with just showing the outward destination?

Philip Rushworth

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09/10/14 – 10:02

I don’t remember this not changing destinations at all.
Perhaps it’s because I used the circular routes often instead of crossing the city and on those routes the terminus markers were much more important if one wanted to get all the way to one’s destination?
I have no idea how many routes Birmingham had back then and I was very young in 1965. My memories would be mostly of a handful of routes I used travelling cross-city to and from school in the 70s but I don’t remember ever being confused about a route or destination.
I could well imagine, however, drivers pressed for time running late, just not bothering to change the destination at the terminus.

Adrienne O’Toole

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09/10/14 – 17:26

From 1956, Newcastle Transport had a trolleybus service that may have been unique in the wonderment of its route and the numbering changes along it. In one direction it was a 43 changing to 36 part way through the journey and in the other direction 44 changing to 33… It ran from Osborne Road to the Central (railway) Station and on its way passed through the city centre TWICE. The overall journey time was 53 minutes, service frequency being every ten minutes, seven days a week. Well, it was a long time ago!
Imagine a lower case letter ‘d’. Osborne Road terminus is at the top of the stem of the letter and the city centre is the lower half of the stem. Just before reaching the tail at the bottom of the stem (where the Central Station was situated) the service ran off in a long clockwise circle through the western suburbs of Elswick, Benwell, Denton and Fenham, returning to the city centre, running down the stem for the second time then terminating at the Central. The service was bidirectional and its numbering was: 43 Osborne Road to Denton Road, 36 Denton Road to Central Station in one direction and 44 Central Station to Fenham, 33 Fenham to Osborne Road in the other. The change of service number en route in each direction avoided confusion for passengers waiting in that part of Grainger Street along which each vehicle passed twice. Oddly this change of number occurred at different locations in the two directions, just over a mile apart, but it was common practice for crews to change the blinds well before these official locations, putting the separation out to nearer two miles! All this came about when the new Slatyford Lane Depot was opened and the associated new wiring along Silver Lonnen was utilised to link two existing services (the 33 and 36) into something much bigger.

Tony Fox

Copyright Ian Lynas

North Western Road Car Co
1967
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H44/31F

Here we have one of a batch of North Western Daimler Fleetlines with an Alexander body. According to the PSV Circle Publication PX3 Post-War Second-Hand British Buses in North America mentions that two of the batch 245 and 247, JDB 245E and JDB 247E became 213 and 215 at City of Oxford Motor Services. They then went to Ensign a dealer in Grays, Essex. 245 in October 1979 and 247 in February, the following year both being exported to World Square, Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii in April 1980.
There is a couple of problems with this. First they were F registered (see photo of 245 at Lower Moseley St Bus Station in 1970, about a month before I went to Australia), this of course is most likely a simple typo 
The second problem is that Kailua is not on Oahu (the main island), Kailua is on "the big island", Hawaii in the town of Kona and on a visit to World Square in 2004, there was no sign of either of the two North Western Fleetlines, although one shopkeeper did remember them.
Does anybody have photos of the Fleetlines at World Square on the big island of Hawaii.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Lynas

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03/03/13 – 14:19

I’d imagine that, apart from age, the difficulty of obtaining spares for a defunct manufacturer’s product – as is the case for both engine and chassis – at such a distance would have removed the Fleetlines from service well before 2004. Whilst a Cummins may well have been a suitable alternative engine, new or used, it would most likely have been more cost effective to buy other, newer, vehicles.
"Mutton dressed as lamb" or perhaps "All dressed up but nothing to show" springs to mind seeing the photo. 245-248 were painted in coach livery particularly for the X60 in 1970 though they did appear on other services.
Paint doesn’t make a coach and patrons still had to sit on bus seats and the drive train was not re-geared so they were not as fast as the Mk3 Lolines with the 5 speed gear box which had regularly appeared on the X60 without the benefit of masquerading as a coach.
Still anything was better than making the trip on a Willowbrook bodied K5G which regularly appeared as duplicates on the service up until 1964. Now one of those in coach livery would have been something else!

Phil Blinkhorn

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04/03/13 – 08:02

Phil makes some interesting comments about North Western’s "pseudo White Ladies" which prompts me to ask:
I know the Ribble, Standerwick and Scout "Gay Hostesses" had upgraded seating, but did they and the White Ladies have alterations to the drive train?
Did the White Ladies (the old Titans or the Atlanteans) have upgraded seating?
Sadly, I don’t have interior views of the preserved PD2 or Atlantean White Ladies, only exteriors.
On from that, I do accept that the ride from Manchester to Blackpool on any vehicle with bus seating will not have been wonderfully comfortable, but it can’t be as bad as an Ambleside Depot HR44 Olympic which turned up at Morecambe Bus Station on the London service one summer Saturday morning in about 1965. No, folks, it wasn’t the luggage hauler!

Pete Davies

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04/03/13 – 09:03

As a soft Yorkshireman, and a coach man, weaned on Sheffield United Tours and S J O C coaches, I always went for the idea that even Sheffield – Manchester ought to be run by coaches. I was never impressed by the North Western/Ribble – let alone Yorkshire "J" services – running service buses (often "disguised" as coaches). To see X2 Nottingham – Blackpool with a bus Leopard would not impress me. Bus Leopards, REs or Nationals didn’t impress me when they turned up on the X67 Mansfield – Chesterfield – Manchester workings.

David Oldfield

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04/03/13 – 15:08

The original White Ladies bodied by Burlingham and East Lancs had moquette trimmed higher backed than bus seats coach seats, but suffered from the lowbridge layout in so much as the upper deck had four seats across.
The Atlantean White Ladies for regional express services, which were more cream than their ancestors, had coach seats with head rests and individual seat frames. At one period in the late 1960s 1272 used to be an almost every weekday sighting for me as it ploughed a constant furrow on the X43 between Skipton and Manchester. The Atlanteans with 59 seats had a fair turn of speed so overtaking them on the de-restricted sections of the A56 was often a matter of fine judgement

Phil Blinkhorn

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04/03/13 – 15:13

David, as a Lancastrian both by birth and by residence, I feel honour bound to point out that Yorkshire companies were equally fond of using standard service buses on completely inappropriate express workings. Examples which spring readily to mind are West Yorkshire (Bristol L type saloons on Leeds to Liverpool timings as late as 1964!), Yorkshire Woollen (various ageing service buses also on the X97/99 whenever better vehicles were needed for private-hire/excursion duties), Yorkshire Traction (Saro bodied Tiger Cubs on their share of the Blackpool services)….need I go on?
As an enthusiast I used to be quite excited to get one of NWRCC’s Bristol K5Gs on an X97 from Sale to Liverpool (this happened to me twice in 1964/65 – their final year in service – and the chassis on these vehicles were pre-war). I must confess though that the other passengers looked less excited.
I agree with you completely about the use of saloons on the X1/X2/X60 interchange. This was little short of a disgrace and all three operators (Ribble/NWRCC/Trent) were guilty of it. I think the ultimate prize for such inappropriate scheduling (apart from the HR44 already mentioned, although from personal experience I suspect that this gave its passengers to something classier at Preston)should go to Boyer – the Leicestershire independent absorbed by Midland Red. They regularly used their pair of Sentinel STC6/44 service buses on their express timings to Blackpool. As much as I love Sentinels this was a step too far!

Neville Mercer

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04/03/13 – 17:41

Neville. As I’ve said before, I can be guilty of shorthand language which can be a little unclear. My reference to the Yorkshire J services was my acknowledgement that we were equally guilty on our side. Sorry if I was clear as mud. I only lived in Sale from 1976 – 1981 so missed K5Gs (thank goodness). As one of Bristol’s biggest fans I’m afraid – even in the flat-lands of South Manchester and the Cheshire Plain – only a 6B or 6G would do for me…..

David Oldfield

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04/03/13 – 17:42

….And there can be few to rival your knowledge of Sentinels, Neville. Your comprehensive book, with co-author John Howie, on this marque is a masterpiece of research and writing.

Roger Cox

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05/03/13 – 06:49

…..or indeed anything Neville turns his hand to…..

David Oldfield

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05/03/13 – 06:49

Thank you, Phil. I hope Neville’s correct about transferring passengers from the HR44 at Preston. From what I recall of the Inspector’s answer to a customer, it didn’t seem likely on this occasion.

Pete Davies

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05/03/13 – 06:50

Of course, everyone is right about inappropriate vehicles on long distance express services – but actually there were a lot of long routes right across the country that were routinely operated by normal seated buses. At the end of the day it is how long you are sitting in a low-backed bus seat, rather than how far you have travelled, that determines how acceptable it is. I think of the Ribble 555 Keswick – Lancaster service at nearly 3 hours; Western National’s old 18 when it ran all the way from Penzance to St Austell – also 3 hours. I have mentioned before how Lincolnshire often operated the route 3 Lincoln – Cleethorpes (2 hours) with Bristol SC4LK’s. I suspect some of London Transport’s longer central area services also took a couple of hours, though I was never very familiar with them. Obviously, on some of these routes, through passengers would be in the minority – but they were by no means a rarity.

Stephen Ford

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05/03/13 – 12:24

I recall that the X60 and other Blackpool services used other operators’ buses on hire in the summer season. In the 1960s, Todmorden JOC used a coach-seated Leopard on hire to Ribble, but if one was not available, the bus-seated version would be used. I’m not sure if TJOC lowbridge Leylands were used previously; if so, they were not that different mechanically from the Ribble "White Ladies" used on the X4 Manchester – Blackpool via Rochdale and Todmorden, which took 3½ hours, although it’s unlikely that many did the full trip.

Geoff Kerr

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05/03/13 – 13:48

My thanks to Roger and David for the embarrassing praise! I quite agree with Stephen about the longer stage carriage routes – another one which springs to mind was the 122 from Gravesend to Brighton. Not sure how long it actually took but it seemed endless in a fully loaded ‘decker. I still think that the X2/X60 interchange takes the proverbial biscuit – this clocked in at more than six hours which was a ridiculous amount of time to spend aboard a service bus. Fortunately (as far as I know!) there was no similar scheduling of saloons on the X7/X2/X60 double interchange from Great Yarmouth to Blackpool. But I could be wrong – especially in the case of joint operator Ribble who seemed unable to tell the difference between a coach and a bus. Although I never saw the aforementioned HR44 on the London services I did record a bus-seated PSU3 Leopard at Victoria Coach Station in 1966. OK, it was brand new at the time, but I suspect that the "new bus smell" did little to mollify the passengers who required buttock amputation after the trip. On the other hand the Gay Hostess Atlanteans were not as good as they looked from a passenger comfort viewpoint. Toilet smells tended to permeate the lower deck while those upstairs (even if, like myself, not prone to travel sickness) soon became weary of the pitching and yawing on any road less glamorous (?) than a fully-fledged motorway.
You know I love Yorkshire, David – it’s my second favourite county….

Neville Mercer

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05/03/13 – 14:39

I must admit that the thought of travelling on the upper deck of a Gay Hostess Atlantean at 60 mph, even on the relatively empty M1 of the 1960s, fills me with trepidation even now.
I well remember driving at just under 60 mph in my upright Ford Pop (top speed 65, down hill with a following wind) and being thrown off course with one passing me at speed south of Newport Pagnell. When the next one in a convoy of three appeared in my mirror I slowed down!!

Phil Blinkhorn

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06/03/13 – 06:48

I don’t have any information as to running times Etc, but one of the longest routes to use services buses must have been the Western SMT route between Glasgow and Stranraer. It more or less followed the A77, which was, and still is for the most part single carriageway, and by the time it went into and out of every village along the way, it must have been around the 90 mile mark from end to end. I would assume the crews would have been on a part way changeover basis, with three or more depots involved. Can anyone give any details?

Ronnie Hoye

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06/03/13 – 06:48

Am I not right in thinking that one of Standerwick’s ‘best’ came to grief on its side on the motorway on one occasion?

Chris Hebbron

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06/03/13 – 06:50

My worst journey was returning from a holiday in Leven (Fife) to Glasgow in an Alexander owned, Alexander rebodied with a semi-utility lowbridge TD4 body.
The temperature was in the 80s and the bus was packed, with many unhappy young children and parents in need of another holiday!

Jim Hepburn

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07/03/13 – 06:42

The mention of operators hiring in vehicles for express services reminded me that many years ago in High Street Heckmondwike I saw one of Bradford Corporations AEC Reliance on hire to Hebble returning from Blackpool.

Philip Carlton

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07/03/13 – 10:44

I can help you there, Ronnie. as, in my RAF National Service days, I travelled on it (to & from Cairnryan) several times in mid-1958 to spend weekends in Glasgow. The total distance is about 90 miles. The journey took four hours, with a stop for crew-change, re-fuelling and passenger ‘toileting’ inside Ayr Depot, some fifty miles into the journey. From Stranraer to Ayr, it was very scenic. It was a two-hourly service and Western SMT used new’ish tin-fronted Leyland PD2’s with lowbridge Northern Counties bodies on the route. It was pretty well patronised, but few passengers rode for more than about 25% of the journey. The other long’ish routes I used to do was Southdown 31 from Southsea to Brighton (52) and the A&D (24?) from Petersfield to Guildford (30 miles) and Red & White 73 from Gloucester to Newport (48), originally to Cardiff, later only to Chepstow, now just to Lydney!

Chris Hebbron

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07/03/13 – 10:48

In the longest journeys class would be the joint United / SMT routes from Newcastle to Glasgow and Edinburgh; these were stage carriage most of the way, and indeed the only bus service in many parts. I believe they would normally be either service buses or at best ‘dual-purpose’. The 15 from Newcastle to Glasgow took 7 1/2 hours (or 8 including the summer only extension to Whitley Bay)although this did include a comfort break and crew change at Galashiels.

David Todd

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07/03/13 – 17:04

Not sure about the Atlanteans but in 1974 one of Standerwick’s Bristol VRL coaches overturned on the M1 near Luton causing 3 deaths and some serious injuries. Incidentally the only time I used a Standerwick Atlantean on the Colne to London service it broke down on the M1. Numerous other trips with Leopards passed without incident.

Paragon

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07/03/13 – 17:30

I’d agree with PARAGON on this. I’ve never heard of one of the Atlanteans falling over, but I do recall one of the VRLs doing that trick. Am I right in thinking they moved on shortly afterwards?

Pete Davies

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07/03/13 – 17:59

The Standerwick VRL accident arose when the driver attempted to avoid a lamp standard that was leaning across the carriageway resulting from a crash by an articulated lorry just in front of the coach. The VRL and its passengers – sadly 3 killed and 30 injured – were essentially the victims of circumstances outside their control.

Roger Cox

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08/03/13 – 07:15

I think it is correct that one of the Standerwick Gay Hostess (i.e. Atlantean) coaches finished on its side somewhere down the M1. This would be the late 1960s, it is my understanding that the driver involved was Burnley-based, and that he was still at that depot in 1970/71 when I was on Laycock’s.

David Call

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30/03/13 – 14:09

The Standerwick decker we immediately think of allegedly dropped into the (in those days) soft central strip which led to a few control problems! if it was the same one the story was that he’d taken evasive action to avoid an artic which had, or was in the process of, jackknifing.
In these days of tachos and pedestrian progress imposed by Brussels it is difficult to relate to the speed a Standerwick decker "flew" at, we were scheduled to average 70 on a "Z" you saw a white dot in offside mirror which grew and grew, they then blasted past like you were standing still!
Allegedly, (and no reason to doubt it) they used a full set of brakes in a fortnight, as far as I know they didn’t have retarders, didn’t they come later on in life?
The economics of decker coaches at the time was against them as 51 seaters were just coming in and they could only carry sixty, there were also fun and games in London as they couldn’t (but at least one tried!!) get through Sammy’s

Pete Bradshaw

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26/05/15 – 06:42

Regarding North Western’s "pretend" White Ladies. I can’t remember now. Were they delivered in fleet livery (mainly red)? I thought so up to now.

Bob Bracegirdle

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26/05/15 – 11:02

245-248 were delivered in fleet livery and were painted in 1970 for the Blackpool express service.

Stephen Howarth

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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11/02/20 – 07:27

Here is a picture of 245 taken in Manchester in June 1970. The fixed glazing apart from the openings on the last window on each deck must have made for dubious ventilation characteristics.

Roger Cox

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12/02/20 – 16:42

With the exception of the Bedford VALs, all North Western deliveries, both single and double deckers, from 1964 to 1971 had forced air ventilation of one form or another. The system certainly worked when new and presumably continued to provide satisfactory ventilation as only 2 Fleetlines were delivered without the system. An experimental Compas heating and ventilation system was installed on 188 and 189, delivered in 1965, but this was not used for the 1967 deliveries which reverted to the system as installed on previous vehicles and 245.

Phil Blinkhorn