North Western Road Car Co
1965
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H44/31F

DDB 174C is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with Alexander H75F bodywork. She was new to North Western in 1965. The company was split in NBC days and, so far as I am aware, she became part of the SELNEC fleet, passing to GMPTE when the ‘new’ county expanded to include Wigan. She became part of the GMPTE museum fleet and was one of two vehicles from that collection (the other was a Leigh Renown) which took part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary event, where we see her on Itchen Bridge. The date is 6 May 1979.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/09/15 – 07:08

Pete Davies is correct in saying that DDB 174C became part of the SELNEC PTE fleet.
The process though was not that straight forward.
I am sure a lot of contributors to this site will know this, but I think it needs retelling.
In November 1971, a new company, wholly owned by North Western, was formed in readiness for the impending split up of the Company. The new Company was the ‘North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Limited’.
On the 1st January 1972 this new company took over from North Western the stage carriage services within the SELNEC PTE area, together with Garages at Altrincham, Glossop, Oldham, Stockport, and Urmston (Wilmslow garage had closed on 19th December 1971. On the same date the services in the Biddulph, Macclesfield, and Norwich areas together with the vehicles and garages, were transferred to Crosville Motor Services Ltd.
On 4th March 1972 the properties at Buxton, Matlock, and Castleton, again with the vehicles and services, passed to the Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd.
On the same day the North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Ltd., passed from North Western to SELNEC PTE control, and was renamed the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Limited.

Stephen Howarth

30/09/15 – 06:07

Thanks for that, Stephen. As you say, not at all straightforward!

Pete Davies

30/09/15 – 06:07

These Fleetlines were very cramped internally. There was very little leg room between the seats. Later when I worked at Rochdale Depot, we had four of these Fleetlines. As a conductor I still found them a bit cramped internally, even though they were the same size as other buses. The gangway was narrow, and the ceilings were low – they were the only low height buses I conducted. Later as a driver, they were very nice to drive, although like all Fleetlines in those pre-power steering days, the steering became very heavy when the bus was full. They would have benefitted from a footrest for the driver’s left foot. On one or two occasions I picked up bricks to use as a footrest.

Don McKeown

30/09/15 – 06:08

If anyone wants to see DDB 174C Close up she has been on static display At Boyle Street for Sometime now.
As if any of us who follow this site would need an excuse to visit.

Cyril Aston

01/10/15 – 06:22

The lack of opening windows is notable – I seem to recall that North Western’s second batch of Renowns was similar. Can anyone recall how the forced ventilation coped with the cigarette fug – or the heat on a rare North West sunny day? (I suppose the lack of sliding vents was one less place to let the rain in!!) As an afterthought, Bus Manufacturers still can’t produce a reliable heating/ventilation system in 2015

Ian Wild

01/10/15 – 17:30

With reference to this posting, I attach a view of DDB174C on Southampton Common the following morning, in company with the Leigh Renown (PTC 114C) and the Merseyside (ex Southport) PD2 open topper, CWM 154C. What a wonderful variety of chassis and body styles our operators had back then!

Pete Davies

02/10/15 – 05:50

Not to mention a wonderful variety of fine liveries Pete.

Brendan Smith

02/10/15 – 05:50

Indeed, Ian, especially in respect of the windscreen area!

Pete Davies

03/10/15 – 12:34

I don’t remember Crosville taking over stock from Norwich. Wasn’t it Northwich?

Woody

04/10/15 – 07:06

Thanks for correcting my typo Woody.
I blame the pre-emptive text on my Kindle.

Stephen Howarth

04/10/15 – 11:49

Talking of Wilmslow depot (29/09/15, above), didn’t it become North Western’s HQ for a time? If I’m right in this, could someone say when, relative to the other events mentioned?

David Call

05/10/15 – 06:18

David, I think you are right, but I’m not sure on dates. I seem to remember a day out from a family visit to my grandmother in Bolton in April 1973, when I went to Blackpool on a North Western vehicle, and that had the Wilmslow address.

Pete Davies

05/10/15 – 06:19

David Call is correct in that Church Street Wilmslow became the Registered office of North Western in January 1972.
The slimmed down Company was left as an Express service operator with 84 coaches, a garage at Hulme Hall Road in Manchester and a Travel Office at 32 Merseyway, Stockport.
Wilmslow was also George Brook’s office as Regional Director of NBC.
The garage was used for storing withdrawn vehicles for a time after it ceased being an operational garage.
I do not (as yet) have a date when it finally shut. It was sold for redevelopment.

Stephen Howarth

14/05/16 – 06:41

It should also be noted that from 1 January to 3 March 1972 inclusive North Western vehicles operating on local services carried "On Hire to North Western" labels whilst all the legal formalities were carried out.

John Dixon

14/05/16 – 08:48

John, that reminds me of the time when the green buses in north Devon carried labels saying, "This is a Red Bus".

Roger Cox

15/05/16 – 06:55

John & Roger,
I once attended a seminar at Aston University where Dr Caroline Cahm (did I spell the surname properly?) was one of the speakers. She related the odd situation in Portsmouth on the first day of "Portsmouth Transit", when a lady with a Southdown pass could not understand why a driver in Southdown uniform would not let her use the pass on a bus in Southdown colours. Politics and politicians – who’d have them?

Pete Davies

01/08/19 – 09:05

Still grinds every time I see 174 with a fleet number below the windscreen. North Western NEVER displayed the fleet number on this batch this way.

The reference to Crossville takeover above should no doubt read Northwich not Norwich!

Bob Bracegirdle

03/06/21 – 06:26

I remember riding on Daimler Fleetline buses as a child in Partington.They ran on the 222 service. Later changed to 252 I believe. There was an old arched railway bridge just as you came into Partington in which these buses had to steer into the middle of the road to clear the bridge. I can’t quite remember the other bus models that ran services in Partington to Sale Stretford, Urmston and Manchester City centre.

Terence Burgess

Tynemouth and District
1963
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Weymann H44/33F

HFT 367, fleet number 267: A Weymann H44/33F bodied Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX. One of 35 delivered to Percy Main between 1963 & 68. The location is the Gibraltar Rock Public House ‘reflected in the windscreen’ this is at the end of Front Street Tynemouth, and was the terminus of the service 11 to Newcastle, a route shared with Newcastle Corporation. The first PDR1/1 Leyland Atlantean at Percy Main entered service in 1960, and by 1962, they had 22. The first nine, CFT 636/644, 236/244, had H44/34F Weymann bodies; the remainder were all H44/34F Roe bodies. DFT 245/249; 245/249 in 1960. FFT 756/761; 256/261 followed in 1962. 236-254 & 5 all carried the Wakefields name. Percy Main had some very punishing and demanding routes, and despite the best efforts of its maintenance staff, the reliability of the early Atlantean’s was always suspect. It’ s been mentioned before on this site, about the amount of freedom NGT allowed its subsidiaries with vehicle choice and specification. By 1963, Percy Main had lost patience with the PDR1/1, and the roomer mill has it that the first choice would have been front entrance Renown’s or PD3’s. Perhaps mindful of the onset of OPO, Northern thought this a step too far, and would not allow it, however, they did allow Percy Main to switch to the CRG6LX Daimler Fleetline. Nevertheless, it would be a further twelve years before the next new Leyland D/D’s arrived at Percy Main, and they were the 1974 Park Royal bodied Leyland AN68. By that time, it was NBC and you took what you were given with no say in the matter. Ironic really, post NBC six Renown’s were transferred to Percy Main from East Yorkshire. The first batch of Fleetlines arrived in 1963, they were HFT 366/375; 266/275, and had H44/33F Weymann bodies. Outwardly, apart from different wheel trims and the absence of badges, they were more or less identical in appearance to the first Atlantean’s. JFT 276/280; 276/280 arrived in 1964, they were H44/32F Weymann bodies, rather than a conventional staircase with two right angles; they had a full sweep descending forwards. I thought this potentially dangerous, and indeed there were several mishaps, especially if for whatever reason the brakes were applied rather harshly when someone was on the staircase. The remainder were Alexander bodied, AFT 783/789C; 283/289 in 1965: DFT 290/292E; 290/292 in 1967; all H44/32F bodies, and EFT 693/702F, 293/302 in 1968, they were H44/33F bodies. As far as I can remember, 283/289 had air operated doors and windscreen wipers, and the remainder were electric, but that apart they were all more or less the same. I left Percy Main in 1975 to join Armstrong Galley, so my experience of the AN68 is limited, and it would be inappropriate of me to comment on them. However, from my own point of view, the Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetline was the best rear engine double deck bus I have ever driven, the Atlantean may have had a greater top speed, but what the Daimler lacked in speed, it more that made up for at the bottom end. They had power to spare, even with a full load; they were never pushed and could easily keep pace with the traffic we had to contend with. The earlier PD2&3 Leyland’s outlived the first Atlantean’s, as for breakdowns, I can count on one hand with figures to spare the amount of times I broke down with a Fleetline, I lost count with the Atlantean.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

18/09/14 – 07:54

Ronnie mentions the AEC Renowns that cmd in NBC days. As he says came from East Yorkshire who received a number if Fleetlines from Tynemouth in exchange.

Chris Hough

19/09/14 – 07:04

This Fleetline looks neither full height nor low height. Were these built to an intermediate height of around 14ft?

Chris Barker

20/09/14 – 16:00

Chris, I don’t know the exact height, but if you refer to my gallery of Newcastle bus stations, in the Haymarket section, there is a photo of one of these alongside a United Bristol FLF Lodekka, and they seem to be about the same, but camera angles can be deceptive.

Ronnie Hoye

24/09/14 – 17:35

Thanks for a marvellous photgraph of one of my favourite buses in a great location.The photo highlights the excellent stanard of maintenance of the Tynemouth and District fleet in the 1960s! gleaming paintwork!

Tom Carr

24/09/14 – 17:36

Manchester Corporation had many Fleetlines and PDR1/2 type Atlanteans with Metro-Cammell bodywork similar to this, (but mostly with curved windscreens) with a height of (if I remember rightly) 14ft and half an inch, i.e. between the normal highbridge and lowbridge heights. These also had a modified staircase to Manchester’s own design. The bottom few steps were at an angle of 45 degrees to the length of the bus. It was claimed that this would "aim" descending passengers to the front of the platform, avoiding the bottleneck which could sometimes occur at the bottom of the stairs. When new these buses also had a substantial handrail on the platform which was supposed to separate upper and lower deck passengers when alighting; in practice this didn’t work because most conductors thought that this handrail was for them to lean on. The rails were later removed. The Manchester buses did, in fact, have a specific place for the conductor to stand, a small section was "cut out" of the luggage shelf above the offside front wheel. The angled staircase also allowed space for a cutaway section in the rear wall of the cab, with a coat hook for the driver’s use. This avoided the perennial problem of coat sleeves flapping outside whenever the cab window was opened. At Rochdale in the mid seventies we had nine of these Fleetlines cascaded from Manchester, they were the best Fleetlines to work on, in my opinion.
I wonder if these Tynemouth Fleetlines had these interior features?

Don McKeown

05/10/14 – 07:28

Tynemouth’s Fleetlines certainly didn’t have the 45° lower section of the staircase, the dividing rails or the cutaway section for the conductor to stand. I can’t recall a ‘wardrobe’ and coathook facility in the cab but I think that it would have been unlikely as I gather that it depended on the angled staircase to provide the space.
I’m fascinated by this whole ‘Manchester-style’ platform arrangement and I wonder whether anyone has an interior photograph which shows it.
Surely Don realises that all rails and stanchions on any bus were installed for the sole purpose of providing the conductor with something to lean against! What other possible function could they have been intended to fulfil? Particularly helpful designs often positioned additional rails so that the conductor could conveniently tuck his/her machine behind when not in use!

Alan R Hall

Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co)
1969
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LXB
Alexander H45/30D

Midland Red 6225, UHA 225H, is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LXB with Alexander H45/30D body, and was new in 1969. It has been restored into West Midlands livery and I include a picture of it’s Gardner engine. Both of the shots were taken last weekend at the AMRTM (Aston Manor) running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

30/03/14 – 13:08

One of the Fleetlines at Southgates Garage was fitted with a Leyland pneumatic Gear change pedestal instead of the usual electric gear shift. This made for much smoother gear changes, I don’t know if it was a one off experiment or not but it was certainly an improvement.

Tony Gallimore

02/04/14 – 16:54

As a Fleetline Fan and driver at Lancashire United in the 70’s, there was absolutely nothing wrong at all with the Fleetlines Daimatic semi automatic gearbox. Had you been a passenger whilst I was driving, you be hard put to tell any of my gear changes, upwards or downwards, apart from the revs changing.
No need to put anything of Leyland origins in any Daimler buses!

Mike Norris

03/04/14 – 07:46

Totally agree, Mike. My experience with the ‘pedestal’ Leyland Pneumocyclic box showed that it was very slow in responding to movement of the gear selector lever. Smooth gear changes required one to anticipate the action of the gearbox. To change gear upwards, one had to move the lever into neutral and only then release the accelerator, pause, then engage the next gear position, and pause again before pressing the accelerator again. Similarly, changing down meant selecting neutral whilst still holding the accelerator, blipping the engine, moving the lever into the next gear down and only then pressing the accelerator again. Lazy drivers not bothered about this would give a snatchy ride and wear out the gearbox brakebands. The SCG gearbox and its licensed versions always gave instantaneous response to gear lever movements.

Roger Cox

05/04/14 – 07:15

I have to agree that uncomfortable and unpleasant gear changes on semi-automatic gear boxes were, assuming the gearbox was properly maintained, almost certainly due to lazy driving techniques and a lack of pride in doing the job to the best of ones ability with management either unaware or uncaring of this habit plus it annoyed those who did do their very best. The Leyland direct air operated gear change did need the technique so accurately described by Roger but was by no means as difficult to master as it may sound and I came to enjoy using it perhaps because it needed that little extra thought to get the best out of it.

Diesel Dave

06/04/14 – 08:32

Midland Red had three classes of Fleetline/Alexanders. The first 50 arrived in 1963 and were classed DD11. During 1966 to 1968 a total of 149 very similar Fleetlines, class DD12. Finally, between 1969 and 1971 came the DD13s – 103 in all, including UHA 225H. The DD13s had centre exits and also Gardner 6LXB engines, which gave a rather better performance than the 6LXs in the other two classes.
Many, possibly most, DD12s were retrofitted with pneumocyclic gearboxes by the early 1970s, as described by Tony Gallimore. I have never found out why. No DD11s or DD13s were so converted as far as I know.
I seem to recall that in the 1980s a handful of Fleetlines that Midland Red South obtained from West Riding had pneumocyclic gearboxes. Was this correct or am I mistaken?

Peter Hale

20/04/14 – 16:07

I, too, liked the pedestal-change conversion on the DD12. It was located by your left hip and encouraged you to sit more upright when driving, doing wonders for back and shoulders! The DD11s were probably excluded due to age, and the DD13s because of the exit door control.
Does anyone remember DD11 5261 when it was powered by a BMMO 10.5 engine? Any facts, particularly from engineering staff, gratefully received.

Allan White

23/04/14 – 05:34

With regards to the comment on DD1 5261 I remember this vehicle during my early teens when I was a Midland Red enthusiast, it was based at Sutton Coldfield and could be seen on the 160 family of services at peak times, in my opinion it out performed the other dd11’s but was extremely noisy in the lower deck, another of my favourite buses was D9 prototype 4773 located to Sheepcote Street ( a regular performer on the above services), really miss those great days, sadly left the Birmingham area in 1967.

Steve

06/05/14 – 07:41

Re. Peter Hale 6/IV: Midland Red (South) acquired 4 of the PHL XXXK Northern Counties-bodied Fleetlines from WRAC in 1985. Unfortunately, I can’t comment on the transmission. However, I do remember travelling from Oadby into Leicester in early 1985 aboard one of Midland Fox’s ex-Yorkshire ECW-bodied LHD XXXK Fleetlines: what struck me was that gear selection was by a Leyland pneumocyclic selector, which was mounted to the side of the instrument housing (where you’ld expect to find the smaller SCG selector) . . . and selection was automatic (as the selector lever was left in the same position throughout the journey. (Trent’s Fleetlines DRC536-551J [536-551] had a similar arrangement.) And yes, my memories have been stirred by "Midland Red in NBC Days", (Geenwood/Roberts, Ian Allan,) which I picked up at the weekend.

Philip Rushworth

25/06/14 – 08:29

A lot of the D12 class Fleetlines had the Leyland style pedestal changes, but not all. It’s never been quite clear if it was a Midland Red modification. Regardless of gear selector type, the gearbox remained the same.
The fierceness or otherwise of the gearchanges is down to the setting of a valve which regulates the pressure of the air being supplied to the gearbox, via the EP Valve.(the pedestal changes had the EP valve built in). This regulator valve was adjustable, and they were frequently set wrongly :in those days companies overhauled their own units, valves etc, and when the regulator valves were assembled, the adjuster screw would just be screwed in and locked in any old position. A test rig would have been needed to set the pressure correctly, and nobody was going to build one for something like this.
So valves were fitted to buses and the pressure would often be set too high causing fierce changes. Likewise no-one was going to go to the trouble of fitting a pressure gauge into the line on the bus to get the pressure right, so it was down to trial and error, if anybody could be bothered.
I remember when WMPTE Stourbridge Garage closed and Oldbury inherited their National 2’s – they used to leap in the air almost the gearchanges were so bad. Once they were all adjusted the difference was remarkable and it was impossible to get a bad change then, no matter how you tried.

I’ve just noticed that the engine shot of 6225 reveals it has been retro-fitted with an air accelerator, using the same make of rear cylinder as found on National 1 (510), prototype Metrobus, and others. No doubt this has been done because of a stiff throttle: the most common cause of this was the accelerator pedal heel/hinge becoming dry and seizing up over time. Seems a lot of trouble to go to, especially as you don’t have the same amount of control as with the hydraulic system normally fitted.

Mark

25/06/14 – 18:04

The comment about the transmission on the ex.Yorkshire Woollen ECW bodied Fleetlines at Midland Fox surprised me. They must have had their transmissions altered by their new owners because when they were at YWD they had normal four speed gearboxes with a 5th position on the gear lever to open the entrance door.

Philip Carlton

27/09/14 – 07:07

I am of an age where I remember the DD12 & DD13 buses running with Midland Red (later Midland Red East and Midland Fox) in Leicester. Three buses of these types that spring to mind that regularly worked my local routes were GHA 429D, SHA 870G & UHA 207H. They were nice buses but rattled well from what I can recall.

Kieron Willans

29/09/14 – 07:37

Re. Philip Carlton 25/06 (and sorry to have taken so long to have replied – I must have missed the post): it was how unusual this feature (direct pneumocyclic selection) was that struck me – I must have used vehicles from this batch once or twice in Yorkshire, but never noticed that . . . so I suspect Philip is right, that Yorkshire’s LHD XXXK Fleetlines were modified after arrival at Midland Fox. Why? it seems an awful lot of expense on already long-in-the-tooth hardware.

Philip Rushworth

01/03/17 – 06:32

Having both being a conductor and a driver for BMMO in the 60s I have driven most of the buses used during this period D9 buses I found to be very stable much more than the Leyland that were purchased, these were terrible in windy conditions especially when winds were blowing between houses, you could often be on the wrong side of the road. The Leyland National also difficult to pull onto bus laybys when there was a line of raised "bricks"/kerbstones when the road was wet no such trouble with BMMO. Having the front wheels set back as the D9s were meant a much smaller turning circle. Disc brakes fitted in 1959 for C5s etc how advanced can you get most cars of that era did not have these.4943/4 both at Stafford at the end of there life another innovation engine under the floor better balance than rear engines of Leyland F Fleetline which were very light at the front.

Graham Millard

01/03/17 – 12:07

Moving away from the transmission to the bodywork, when Alexander initially designed the A style body back in 1962, it incorporated the windshield and upper deck front windows that were supplied on the Y series coach body as windshield and rear window respectively. I can understand why BMMO specified the easily fitted split windscreen as replacement of the original after damage could be costly, but why go to the trouble and expense of redesigning the upper deck window arrangement? No other BET company operating the Alexander body seemed to have trouble with that the upper deck window and none to my knowledge either followed the BMMO redesign or made changes of their own.

Phil Blinkhorn