Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Lancashire United Transport
1949
Guy Arab III
Roe B32F

Thanks to Spencer who I think should really be called Sherlock these three have been identified and are here from the ‘Do You Know’ page.
The one on the left is as the above specification. L.U.T. was the largest independent operator in the UK and operated in the South Lancashire area. They were quite diverse with there makes of buses including Atkinson, Foden and Dennis but they did like there Guys. I think but I stand to be corrected they bought the last Guys ever built. If I am wrong let me know, leave a comment.
The bus in the centre was a Western National Omnibus registration 356 HTT fleet no 992 which was a Bristol K5G with an ECW L27/28R built in 1946. I wish I knew more about the Bristol K series so I could write more, can anybody help on that score if so please get in touch.
The bus on the right which I thought was a Leyland Titan is according to Spencer, and I’m not going to argue with him, an L.U.T. Dennis Lance K2 registration GTE 864 fleet no 196 built in 1947 with a Weymann L27/26R body. On further research I have found out that the Dennis Lance K2 had a Gardner 6LW engine which was a 8.4 litre six cylinder diesel.
Just in case you want to know the Dennis Lance K3 had a Dennis 8.0 litre six cylinder diesel and the Lance K4 had a Gardner 5LW 7.0 litre five cylinder diesel. The K4 also had a concealed radiator a touch like the well known Birmingham style, the K 2 and 3 had exposed radiators.

---

“The last Guy Arabs delivered to a British operator actually went to Chester City and were 1969/70 H registered, LUT bought their last Guy in 1967.

Chris Hough

---

“Chris is right the last three Guy Arab Vs delivered to Chester Corporation had Northern Counties H41/32F bodies, registrations DFM 345-7H, fleet numbers 45-47.

Spencer

---

I thought that LUT had either one or two Guy Wufrunians which they didn’t like and sold them on to West Riding Auto?

Geoff

———

They only had one Geoff.

137 were built in total delivered as follows

126         West Riding
    2         County Motors
    2         Wolverhampton Corporation
    2         Accrington Corporation
    1         West Wales
    1         Bury Corporation
    1         Lancashire United

Spencer

———

The Bristol K series and the closely associated ECW bodies – a most complex and fascinating subject concerning two absolutely top class and rightly successful manufacturers.
The vehicle shown is one of the very first post-war standard models bought widely by the Tilling Group. It is to the standard dimensions of the time, 26 feet x 7 feet 6 inches. "K5G" denotes the popular 5 cylinder Gardner 7.0 litre engine. The "lowbridge" low height body is of the type with all the upper saloon seats on the nearside, and a sunken offside gangway sadly causing pain and injury to the offside lower deck passengers, especially those who hadn’t seen the little notice "Lower your head when leaving your seat" – a high but necessary price to pay for the often essential reduction in overall height, until the invention of the highly ingenious "Lodekka."  A fair few of the early post-war vehicles of this type suffered the indignity of being diverted on loan to London Transport when brand new – this must have gone down very badly with the purchasing operators and their staff – I’ve always held the opinion that it was abominably unfair, and that older vehicles should have been sent to assist with the shortage in the Capital.

Chris Youhill

---

I agree with Chris’s comments re-London getting other operators’ new buses. But think of the poetic justice – London Transport drivers having to do proper gear-changing!

Stephen Ford

---

I hadn’t really thought of that Stephen but of course you’re right, although we tend to forget after all these years that legions of manual gearbox STs and LTs etc had "only just gone" in the late 1940s.  The strange quantity, seventy six, of the new all Leyland PD1s (STD 101 – 176) had also just arrived and would be "sorting the men from the boys" too.

Chris Youhill

---

It’s a bit off-subject, but I have often suspected that the reason why Nottingham broke with the long AEC tradition, and went for Daimlers as their first orders after the war was the strong preference for pre-selector. I gather AEC could only offer crash-gearbox Regent IIs initially. By 1949 NCT was again taking pre-selector Regent IIIs in large volumes, and the 31 CVD6s of 1948 remained an anomaly.

Stephen Ford

---

31/01/11

I lived in Clifton, between Swinton and Kearsley until 1948, I know!!!, and remember that LUT had a number of Guy double deckers, which were painted matt grey, had squared-off roof corners and wooden slat seats. At the end of the war one was painted white and had ‘fairy lights’ all round. Just a passing comment.

Jim Moyse

---

31/01/11 – 20:28

Words/phrases like ‘abominably’ and ‘poetic justice’ are surely a bit strong! Central Division London Transport had barely digested its independents with their multiplicity of makes by 1939. It had updated Green Line and then ordered some 350-odd RT’s which were cut back to 150, and was due to replace much of its fleet by 1942. It lost many vehicles in the Blitz/V bomb attacks (22 complete Tilling STL’s alone at the bombed Croydon Garage, with others damaged) and used up its body float on patched up chassis. It lent out a considerable number of vehicles for most of the latter part of the war, mainly petrol Tilling ST’s, many of which, on return, were condemned (the last didn’t return until 1947). Buses were failing faster than they could be replaced, despite many vehicles being renovated to an excellent standard and other bodies strapped up and maybe even held together by string! What didn’t help was RT production being delayed by a year so that the bodies could be jig-built. Craven-bodied RT’s and SRT’s helped fill gaps. Passengers rocketed, with the maximum number reached in 1949. And it was borrowing a lot of vehicles (mainly coaches) from outsiders. By 1949, nationalised, it was probably a good decision by BTC to quickly allocate new buses, than have a lot of near-scrap vehicles cascaded over a period of months.
It says something for Chiswick that buses designed for a 10 year lifespan lasted over twice that in some cases, even without a rebuild. Some LT ‘scooters’ lasted over 21 years!
And there were still plenty of manual gear change buses in 1949, all 435 Guys, Bristols, (austerity STD’s (they WERE a challenge!), many T’s, pre and post-war, TD’s and some country STL’s on loan.
Many of the drivers would originally have come from independents and be familiar with manual ‘boxes. If any men were sorted out from the boys, I’d say it was the tram drivers who had to convert over to buses!!

Chris Hebbron

---

01/02/11 – 05:44

Hi Chris – all a harmless bit of banter! On the same subject, I recall a Meccano Magazine cartoon at the time of the vehicle loans to London. It featured a number of buses from various cities, which were sweeping round Trafalgar Square in brilliant sunshine – all except for a Manchester Corporation vehicle which was driving along under its own permanent rain cloud.

Stephen Ford

---

01/02/11 – 05:44

Many very valid and respected points there Chris H and I must confess that I’d never really studied the "diverted new vehicles" question to such a depth. So I can now see the matter in a more informed way and amend my "abominably unfair" criticism somewhat – but I do still feel though that the intended recipients, both engineering and operating, of the shiny new steeds may well have felt somewhat maligned and I think that I would too. I agree about the tram drivers’ dilemma and I think it nothing short of miraculous that they were able to make the conversion in such large numbers, and those changing to trolleybuses didn’t have a very much easier alternative either !!

Chris Youhill

---

01/02/11 – 18:52

My comment was light-hearted, too, but I thought a bit a background info would be interesting. I also forgot to mention that the government of the day put a restriction on the number of PSV deliveries, which, in 1948, meant a shortfall of 748 in RT deliveries, which must have been devastating. Although this restriction applied nationally, too, the misery would have been spread out more and the effect less per operator.
It is on record that the diversion of the new Bristol/ECW steeds caused a lot of resentment to intended recipients. As for London Transport, the ever-difficult Met. Police put in their two penn’orth by banning lowbridge buses with their so-called slower dwell-times at bus stops, relenting eventually by restricting them from certain routes!
This meant that, at times, the Bristol K5G’s were put on hilly routes they were unsuitable for. And there were problems with hinged doors and garage capacity! In some ways, welcome though they were, they must have been a mixed blessing to LTE.
If anyone has an interest in reading more, Ken Glazier’s book ‘Routes to Recovery’ is the one to buy.
As for tram drivers in London, when LPTB was formed in 1933, the LCC was the dominant tram operator and there was resentment that local authority staff, some admin, who just happened to be there at that point of their career, were trapped in PSV-land from then on. However, there was no retirement age for such staff and many tram drivers went on for years after the LPTB retirement age! But enough, I’m digressing!

Chris Hebbron

---

02/02/11 – 06:23

This further information is extremely interesting to me and tells me much that I never knew, even though I was a frequent visitor to Streatham SW16 throughout the War and until around 1995. I well remember the K5Gs on route 137, and I believe that they were not confined to parts of the service but undertook the full very long journey from Highgate Archway Tavern to Crystal Palace. Based no doubt at Victoria (Gillingham Street GM) they probably posed few problems to the drivers there as the Leyland PD1s STD 101 – 176 (or a number of them) were already there. I can imagine the frustration though at having to stop half way up Central Hill at Norwood when already half an hour late at busy times. Happy days for dedicated busmen.

Chris Youhill

---

02/02/11 – 21:03

Would the Tilling companies concerned have been consulted about the arrangement beforehand or was it a done deal by a higher authority? When the Bristols eventually reached their rightful owners, effectively as second hand vehicles, was there any compensation or had the companies simply been obliged to lend a hand without question?

Chris Barker

---

07/03/11 – 09:21

After LUT were taken over by GMT, Barton of Chilwell became the largest independent operator who too had a very diverse fleet just like LUT.

Roger Broughton

---

07/03/11 – 16:03

Chris B – It was a done deal! The Tilling Group had voluntarily sold out to the BTC in September 1948 and almost immediately were told to divert 25% of their new deliveries to LTE, some 200, later reduced to 190 (45 lowbridge). The order annoyed the operators, who felt that LTE had brought the shortage on itself by delaying new vehicle production by insisting the RT family bodies be jig-built.
The first Bristols came in December 1948 and the last went in June 1950.
Most other non-Tilling buses which helped out were single-deckers, although my posting about the Thorneycroft Daring mentioned it was one exception. Others were three new Daimler/Brush CVG6’s from Maidstone Corporation and, from Leeds Corporation, 17 pre-war AEC Regents/Roe (with one Weymann) with pre-selective gearboxes (Leeds STL’s)!
Unlike the other surplus austerity buses, which went all over the place, but were banned from going to a BET company, when the 29 austerity Bristols were then ready to leave LTE, the word was put out to BTC in advance, so that the ex-Tilling companies could prepare for their transfer.

Chris Hebbron

---

10/03/11 – 07:41

Referring to the comment by Jim Moyse, I suspect the grey Guy’s were wartime deliveries with utility specification bodies. A trip to most local libraries in South Lancashire should yield a copy of British Bus And Trolleybus Systems number 7, Lancashire United/SLT, which details the whole story.
With regard to the Guy Arab IV’s and V’s of the fifties/sixties, a friend of mine drove these, working out of Swinton depot. He subsequently purchased number 134, 6218 TF, the penultimate open rear platform model, later disposed of, current owner/location unknown.
A peculiarity of the gearbox is that depressing the clutch pedal to it’s full stroke before selecting first gear results in the the box locking, preventing any attempt to upshift. I can’t remember whether double-declutching released it, or whether it was necessary to stop the vehicle. Apparently something around 75% of pedal travel is all that is required for normal operation.

Phil Meadows

---

15/03/11 – 16:43

It’s taken me a while to puzzle out Phil’s gearbox lock-up. Pressing the clutch pedal all the way down activates a device called a clutch-stop, which is a transmission brake on the shaft connecting the clutch to the gearbox. This may be useful in counteracting clutch-spin when engaging a gear at rest, but more importantly it can be used to speed up gear-changing. The clutch-stop on Guys was more gentle than on Bristols and Leylands, producing a comfortably fast change rather than a rapid one. But I’ve never heard of a clutch stop locking a gearbox before.
I finally realised that trying to move out of gear with a transmission brake on is exactly like trying to do so with the clutch engaged and the engine stopped. The gearbox input shaft needs to be free to rotate, so you need to lift the clutch pedal slightly to free it off.

Peter Williamson

---

18/06/11 – 18:31

Just a small point in the original note to this picture. The Dennis Lance K3 certainly had a Dennis power plant, but it was the O6 of 7.58 litres capacity, a four valve per cylinder engine of excellent quality. The 8 litre variant of this engine didn’t appear until the later 1950s. Dennis was the only British manufacturer to design and produce diesel engines with four valve heads, in 5 litre, 5.5 litre, 7.58 litre and 8 litre sizes. The Crossley HOE7 was initially designed as a "four valver" using Saurer concepts, but, when Saurer asked for a royalty payment, the Crossley engine was rapidly redesigned as a "two valver", with disastrous consequences, becoming notorious for its poor performance and unreliability.
Turning to the "London Transport question", a great many London buses were certainly rebuilt in their lifetimes, particularly when Aldenham was up and going. Even some of the older types were given major body overhauls. Many of the six wheeled LT single deck "scooters", which I am old enough to be able to recall having travelled on, on routes 213 and 234, were given major body overhauls by Marshalls of Cambridge around 1949. From the RT type onwards, London buses were designed to be taken apart every five years or so, with chassis and body being sent on separate tracks through Aldenham Works. Each chassis emerging at the far end then took the first available rebuilt body, not the one it went in with. No other operator in the land followed this costly procedure, and the supposed long life of London bus types needs to be balanced against the regular visits to Aldenham. The much vaunted RM only survived for so long in London service because of this rebuilding procedure. The Northern General RMs, which had to rely on standard overhaul methods, were withdrawn around 1980 after a life of some 15 years.

Roger Cox

---

01/09/11 – 10:55

In Relation to Lancashire United’s Sole Guy Wulfrunian, they actually ordered 3 to be fleet numbers 58-60 in the Post 1959 fleet, but only 58 (802 RTC) was delivered it being unpopular, there is a picture of it shown close to Atherton depot on service 82 on flickr. The remaining order for 2 was changed and materialised as the trusted Guy Arab fleet number 59 and 60.
The Last numbered Guy Arab in the LUT fleet was 290 delivered in 1967 (265-290) In the post 1959 fleet LUT Guy Arabs were
18-27 with Northern counties body
40-49 with Metro Cammell Weymann bodies (40 was rebuilt in 1966 to a front door layout following serious accident on the East Lancs road at Ellenbrook)
50-57 NCME
59 and 60, then 61-80, 103-135 all rear loaders with NCME 136 (6220TF) was the first build front loader NCME
159-170, 186-195, 218-240, 265-290 all NCME
Many an enjoyable day riding on, conducting and driving these buses I worked at LUT Atherton from being 18 in 1977 until it closed on 7th Feb 1998. I still work for First now some 34 years.

Chris Stott

---

02/09/11 – 11:23

With regard to the loaned Provincial Bristols to L.T.E. if you watch the film starring Jack Warner The Blue Lamp one passes by in the dark in one scene.

Philip Carlton

---

26/11/12 – 08:39

In the list of Guy Wulfrunian chassis above the total of 137 is correct but missing from the list underneath are the two demonstrators, 7800 DA and 8072 DA. I believe that they were both ultimately sold to West Riding for spares. Sold to West Riding for service were the LUT, West Wales, and two County examples – one of the ex-County ones is now preserved. Despite their illogical layout, both the Accrington ones saw further service. I have read that they initially went to Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead, but one finished up with Byley Garage in Cheshire – and they did use it, as I saw it on the road on one occasion. The Bury one was sold on to a succession of Welsh independents before ending up with Berresford’s at Cheddleton – I’m not sure whether or not it was actually used there. Later it was placed in storage behind GMT’s Hyde Road depot as a prelude to a proposed preservation, but for reasons which now escape me, this ultimately didn’t come to pass.
The two Wolverhampton examples failed to sell to any subsequent operator.
Until I read Chris’s post above I had quite forgotten that LUT 59 & 60 had been intended to be Wulfrunians. The order was presumably altered before even No.58 had been constructed.

David Call

---

26/11/12 – 10:28

Talking of Wulfrunians, coincidentally I have just been re-reading David Harvey’s fascinating book ‘The Forgotten Double Deckers’, in which he states that Rotherham and Belfast had ordered three and one Wulfrunians respectively but cancelled their orders very quickly when they began to hear bad news about the model. The two cancelled LUT buses would have been rear entrance types like Accrington’s pair, as would even more incredibly a pair provisionally ordered by Todmorden J.O.C – a staunch and very traditional Leyland customer. The mind just boggles at the thought of Todmorden Wulfrunians climbing up to Mankinholes!

John Stringer

---

27/11/12 – 07:32

I recall that West Riding ordered a batch of single deck Wulfrunians but changed the order in favour of double deckers. What would they have looked like? I was interested in the information about potential customers who suddenly got cold feet.

Philip Carlton

---

29/11/12 – 07:32

I imagine that a single-deck Wulfrunian would have worked a lot better than the double-deck ones did, owing to the reduction in weight. As to what it would have looked like, I think that would depend on whether Roe were allowed to design it themselves or had more nonsense imposed on them by Park Royal. It’s a fascinating thought, as there were no low-floor single deckers around at all at that point.

Peter Williamson

---

29/11/12 – 11:05

Wasn’t the Guy Victory export chassis to some extent a version of a single deck Wulfrunian? I believe it had a front mounted engine, semi-automatic transmission, disc brakes and optional air suspension.

John Stringer

---

03/11/14 – 06:24

I can see that this thread is almost two years old … but regarding LUT Wulfrunians. I always thought that nos 58 AND 59 left the bodyworker en-route to Atherton BUT No 59 was written off in a road traffic accident before arriving in Howe Bridge?

Iain H

---

07/11/14 – 15:43

Iain H, Please refer to Bus lists on the web and can you see any NCME body numbers for 58 & 59 if they were built as Wulfrinians?
No, they were built as standard 30 rear entrance Arab IV’s

Mike N

---

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

---

07/09/20 – 06:11

Regarding the Accrington Wulfrunians they were in sense Guy Arabs having manual gearboxes instead of a semi automatic one.
Why Accrington specified rear entrance is probably due to the council committee at the time (look at 14,15 and 16) these came as rear entrances

F. Atkinson

---

08/09/20 – 06:21

Re Accrington’s rear entrance Wulfrunians, see my article Days out with Martin Hannett on this site.

Phil Blinkhorn

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1951
Bristol KSW6B
ECW L55R

Photo taken from the upper deck of an Hebble Regent V in the old Bradford bus station. This West Yorkshire has a blue disc in front of the fleet number denoting that it is from the Bradford depot.

---

Blue disc – Bradford depot
Green disc – Harrogate depot
Grey disc – Keighley depot
Maroon disc – Leeds depot
Yellow disc – York depot

Neil

---

I am trying to find out what double deckers were used in York prior to the Lodekkas of my youth, I would like to collect models of these.

Jim Plant

---

As would be expected with Tilling Group operators the double deckers, pre Lodekka, were the standard "G" and "K" models with ECW bodywork. A notable departure though from normal West Yorkshire Road Car Co. Ltd. policy was that all York double deckers were of highbridge layout. Exceptions which may make interesting model projects include eight London Transport "ST" types on hire in the latter years of WW2 and three AEC Regents (ADG 1 – 3) purchased in 1954 from Brighton Hove and District, the latter to cover while some prewar Bristols were refurbished and rebodied – a process sometimes referred to by the Company as "rehabilitated."

Chris Youhill

---

York had its own fleet of highbridge K and KS type Bristols, being a subsidiary to the main fleet after the agreement of 1933, when York Corporation was integrated in a similar, but legally different way to what happened in Keighley. I used to love the earlier generation of J and G types, and well remember lowbridge Gs at Chester Street until about 1952. They were retained as a float to cover the rebodying of the later pre war K types. I loved West Yorkshire up to its 1954 renumbering, and they had ordinary numbers with K and Y prefixes for the Keighley and York fleets.
I can still hear the growl of a 5LW Gardner in the Gs and Js as they almost stopped at the summits of Hollins Hill and Baildon. And the grind of their amidships mounted gearboxes.
What memories, and what superb buses.

John Whitaker

---

I ought to leave this one to my northern colleagues, as I was only an occasional visitor to York. However (fools rush in and all that…!) I seem to remember that the York-West Yorkshire services were mainly highbridge Bristol K and KS – but not, I think, the 8 foot wide KSW, in deference to narrow streets in the city centre. Leeman Road bridge under the railway could only take single deckers, and I recall seeing a couple of Bristol L s. This would be about 1968 I think.

Stephen Ford

---

York had a large number of K type Bristols some of these were pre war chassis rebuilt and rebodied in the fifties. York was the only depot to run highbridge buses before the advent of the Lodekka

Chris Hough

---

Stephen the Leeman Road Bridge was even more restrictive, and a batch of postwar "L"s had to be "decapitated" during construction so that the reduced destination display was level with the roof.

Chris Youhill

---

A point or two arising from this fascinating correspondence on my childhood stomping ground:
The London Transport AECs to which Chris Youhill refers were, of course, only on loan, and the ADGs were never actually owned by Y-WY either; they were hired from West Yorkshire, despite having ‘York-West Yorkshire’ transfers on the sides. An old Y-WY driver once told me that they were extremely unpleasant to drive, having very high pedals and a low, set-back gear lever. Changing from third to second was, in his view, virtually impossible.
It’s not entirely true that all Y-WY double-deckers were highbridge. In September 1964, the Joint Undertaking bought 4 K6Bs from WY, (YDB 36-40), although they were withdrawn in 1966. Earlier, they had operated a number of lowbridge vehicles bought from WY when or shortly after the Joint Undertaking was formed. There were 3 lowbridge Bristol GO5Gs, (which were used for only a few months), and a number of lowbridge Leyland TD1s, (no fewer than 15 in total), some of which were not finally withdrawn until 1946.
If Jim Plant would like a full fleet list of Y-WY double deckers, I can supply one; the early fleet, incidentally, included 3 Daimler CH6s fitted later with Gardner 5LW engines. Including other early vehicles, such as trams, trolleys and single-deckers, produces a very varied selection of chassis and body makers.
I assume that John Whitaker doesn’t like the 1954 renumbering system. If so, he’s not alone, but I have to say I thought it useful. Bristol and Gardner engined vehicles were, (by and large – it was not an iron rule), allocated to different routes; regulators therefore knew immediately what vehicles to allocate without needing a detailed knowledge of the fleet. Most of them would have had this knowledge, of course, but there were occasional stand-ins, for whom the new system was helpful.
Stephen Ford’s reference to the single-deck L5Gs with reduced indicator boxes, (YSG 121-130), brought back personal memories of when I was a Y-WY conductor. They were used on staff runs and I frequently used one to get home after working a late shift. There was an absolute firm Company rule that no bus was allowed to pass through Micklegate Bar – it would have resulted in instant dismissal, I guess. Driving the staff bus was unpopular, and to save time, one driver would nevertheless take a YSG under Micklegate Bar; I don’t know what the clearance was, but it can’t have been much. (Shades of East Yorkshire and Beverly Bar!).

Roy Burke

---

Recent posts about West Yorkshire and "Sammy" Ledgard have really set my memories alight. As a young lad in Bradford during the 1940s, Bradford Corporation was always my favourite fleet, but West Yorkshire came a close second. They had a superb collection of rounded pre war shapes and the "squarer" post war standard shapes, but after 1954, most of the pre war "flavour" had gone and we were drowned in a sea of standardised types, SGLs, SBWs etc etc.
Why did WY not rebody J and G types, or TD2s in typical Tilling fashion, and why did they not get any of the PD1s etc which Crosville and others were getting?
No wonder then that Sammy took over as a source of fascination, and I must thank Chris Youhill for reviving all these images. Ex London Daimlers, and much more. What a fleet for enthusiasts to get excited about!
I am even trying to get hold of "Beer and Blue Buses", and joining the Ledgard Society!!
Thanks Chris, for all of it.

John Whitaker

---

I’m really glad John that you found Samuel Ledgards operations so fascinating – thousands did, and still do. "Beer and Blue Buses" is a major and very accurate work written by a very close friend of mine, Don Bate, and I gladly helped him considerably with photo captions and proof reading etc. You will be more than welcome to join the Society which forges ahead strongly with a constant membership figure despite not even being formed until more than thirty years after the Firm ceased. If you buy the book be prepared for a shock, as a photo of yours truly as a young conductor appears on the front cover – some cruel wags say that this has had an adverse effect on sales figures but I have broad shoulders, metaphorically at least !!

Chris Youhill

---

02/11/12 – 07:21

My father would have travelled from Skipton – Keighley on these when he went to grammar school 1955 -1958. He did see one in use by Gray Line in New York about 20 years ago.
I love K types and Lodekka’s to me they are more your real buses as served more varied areas of the country.

Nick Scales

---

16/12/12 – 14:52

I remember working on Bristol Lodekkas at Keighley 1971 they had fleet no. KDX 39 onwards the last been KDX 227 then they changed around 1974? to eg 2639 or 2827 then later on they went to 1639 or 1827. This I think is because the Keighley was removed from the fleet name they were just West Yorkshire the change in 1974 I believe was the demise of the National bus company, then the VRs came on the scene.

John French

---

17/12/12 – 08:05

John, Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicles did indeed have ‘K’ prefixes to their fleet numbers in order to differentiate them from the main fleet, and there was a similar set-up in York, where a ‘Y’ prefix was used. The alpha-numeric system introduced by West Yorkshire in 1954 (eg: DX48, SRG22, CUG16 etc) was replaced by a wholly numeric system in autumn 1971, due to the introduction of a new computer system. Apparently this could not cope with letters, so the entire fleet was renumbered, and WY stores part numbers were required to have six rather than five digit catalogue numbers, amongst other things. (Yet another case of the people serving the computer, rather than it serving us, but don’t get me started on that one!) The main fleet vehicles received fleet numbers starting with 1xxx, Keighley-West Yorkshire buses with 2xxx, and York-West Yorkshire machines with 3xxx. Service vehicles, previously numbered in their own 1xxx series then became 4xxx. The Keighley-West Yorkshire title was dropped in 1974, following local government reorganisation. Keighley UDC became part of Bradford Metropolitan District Council on 1st April 1974, and West Yorkshire Road Car reached an agreement to purchase Keighley Council’s share of the joint undertaking, rather than it transferring to the new West Yorkshire PTE. Thus the buses became part of the main fleet, losing their ‘Keighley’ identity and 2xxx fleet numbers in the process.
The first National Bus Company subsidiaries to be privatised were National Holidays and Devon General in 1986, and the last were London Country (North East) and Victoria Coach Station in 1988. Although NBC had its faults, as does any large organisation, it was evolving and did have much to be proud of as well, especially when compared to the shambles we have today. In the words of the song, "you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone!"

Brendan Smith

---

17/12/12 – 09:45

John French has reminded me of my happy days as a conductor at Ilkley depot in the 1960s. In order to satisfy (on paper at least but not in practice)our two car contribution to the extremely busy service K 12, Ilkley – Silsden – Keighley – Haworth, two "Keighley West Yorkshire vehicles were always allocated to Ilkley. I wish I had "a quid" for every ticket I’d issued on KDX 39/40 which were our two in my time – as different as chalk and cheese !! KDX 39 was demure and quiet and smooth, but perfectly adequate while KDX 40 was a championship flyer with a meaningful exhaust "rort" and was certainly the best in the depot – a legendary "flier" as they say. If either of these two were away for any reason we were always lent a superb K6B of the batch KDB 54/5/6/7, two of which had platform doors. The reason for the loan though was obvious and sensible – the two display Keighley depot destination blinds had, naturally, all the information for service K12 but none for any of the other Ilkley depot routes.
I agree entirely with Brendan’s view on the NBC – like it or loathe it, and I liked it (with nostalgia reservations of course) It was a pretty efficient organisation which had much to be proud of – not least very cost effective vehicle standardisation and easy and most useful loans and transfers between operators.

Chris Youhill

---

17/12/12 – 10:54

Liveries aside, Chris, as ever, is right. In the usual way of things, NBC was almost a basket case as constituted – and cobbled together – of disparate companies. By the time the good Baroness had dismantled it, NBC was just beginning to get it together. Another case of what might have been – whether we personally like it, or not.

David Oldfield

---

17/12/12 – 11:19

As a tallish driver, Chris (or so your photos suggest) were you OK in Lodekka/Lowline’s? It is funny what you say about NBC fleet interchanges because these two replaced some of Guy’s gurgling seesaws south of Leeds and to the unfamiliar seemed to have odd driving positions- much more vertical steering wheel and tall drivers seemed to have high-level knees…?

Joe

---

17/12/12 – 16:04

Hello Joe – well, now that I’ve stopped chuckling at the finest description yet which I presume you refer to Her Majesty’s Imperial fleet of West Riding destroyers – I believe the Company almost put into operation some PA devices which played "A life on the Ocean Wave" as the magnificent giants left port, but not wishing to alienate passengers of a landlubber nature decided against it !!
Seriously now, I was only a conductor at West Yorkshire and so, apart from the odd incident about say no more, I never drove a Lodekka. I think you’re right though and the driving position was certainly odd although I think that many drivers soon became accustomed to it and liked it. Regardless of that it has to be said that the Lodekka was a brilliant design and rid us of that sinister little seat back ticket "lower your head" and of awkward steps from street to platform and into the lower saloon.

Chris Youhill

---

17/12/12 – 16:05

Chris Y has reminded me of a West Yorkshire Information Service Tour in October 1955 when with my friend John W, we visited Keighley, Skipton and Ilkley on the double deck coach Bristol KSW6B DBW 31 (851). At Keighley depot we saw the new Bristol Lodekkas KDX 41 to 43 stored new and ready for service. At Skipton we went on a Keighley West Yorkshire Bedford OB Beadle KSP3 (K 616) on a local service in the town and then toured the depot only to find some withdrawn Keighley WY Bristol JO5Gs in a yard at the back of the depot. These buses had been there for several years and hidden from public view. What a find. Finally at Ilkley depot we saw more new and stored Bristol Lodekkas KDX 39 and 40. We then went a local service to Hebers Ghyll on Bristol L6B/ECW EB4 (229). A day to remember seeing the old and the new and travelling on a unique and eye-catching DBW31.

Richard Fieldhouse

---

17/12/12 – 16:44

Brendan, sorry to nitpick but Keighley was (until 1974) a (very proud) Municipal Borough and not an Urban District. Indeed after it had absorbed various outlying UDC’s in the early part of the 20th century it was I believe the largest Borough by area in the country stretching as far as the Lancashire boundary in the West and by virtue of it size by population it ran its own local education department rather than being part of the West Riding system.
Keighley also ran its own Transport Department, including Trolleybuses, concluding a joint operating agreement with West Yorkshire in 1932, leading to the formation of Keighley West Yorkshire Services Ltd.
The current local operator is Transdev Keighley and District which is in many respects a continuation of the old Keighley West Yorkshire operation (local management having bought the company on privatisation) although in the last tendering process a smaller operator has taken on a small number of routes.
Compared to many of today’s large operators Transdev operate an extremely efficient service with well maintained vehicles, and with a strong local identity. It is interesting that (subject to the addition of the Metro 7 prefix) some local services still retain the same route number from Corporation days.

Gordon Green

---

18/12/12 – 07:43

As well as these Bristol K with the preferred Bristol power unit WYRCC also had a small batch of Gardner engined Ks which were classified DGW as far as I know these were the Gardner engined Bristols until the advent of the VRs in 1969.

Chris Hough

---

18/12/12 – 10:14

Chris H, the WYRCC Gardner engine Bristols KSW6Gs DGW 1 – 10 (855 – 864) were my favourites and I often rode on them on my School Special service from Burley to Otley Grammar School. However WYRCC did purchase two more Gardner 6LW engined buses with their first tranche of Bristol Lodekkas with DX3 and DX4 so fitted and later converted DX48 from a Bristol AVW to a Gardner 6LX unit in 1959. Until the Bristol VRs, no more Gardner double deckers appeared, much to my great regret. I think the Bristol BVW engine had stopped being made at the time of the first Bristol VRs introduced in 1968. The BVW could not match the Gardner 6LX in power output for the heavier bus

Richard Fieldhouse

---

18/12/12 – 12:36

Although both York and Keighley were provided with buses by the Road Car, they both were municipal operators who ran trolleybuses Surprisingly both have preserved examples of their fleets York has a Leyland Lion (albeit in Ribble livery) at the Manchester transport museum and there is a partially rebuilt Staker-Squire double deck Keighley trolley at the Keighley bus museum. I am open to correction but I think the Keighley vehicle is the oldest surviving British trolleybus. After the York takeover some of the single deck trollies were sold to Chesterfield another system that is often overlooked.

Chris Hough

---

18/12/12 – 12:37

As Gordon says, Keighley had its own municipal system until the formation of the joint concern in 1932, and it has the dubious distinction of being the first municipal tramway to be abandoned, followed closely by Ipswich and Darlington. It is a little "island" of special interest to me, the later tracklesses being totally fascinating!
My good friend Richard Fieldhouse mentions the 1955 West Yorkshire Information Service trip, an event deeply etched into my memory! Several JO5G withdrawn buses were still stored at Skipton, and most of these had been there since 1952, being of the earlier "square" ECOC body style. I can remember these at Chester Street Bus Station, in Bradford, when a very young lad, when we took regular trips to Baildon Moor on them! They absolutely oozed "character"!, and invariably had a rear advert, questioning the populace as to whether they had McLeaned their teeth that day! Their rear ends were often prominent in that small extra parking area as the bus station was exited.
If only there was one still at Skipton, I would be straight up there with an offer to buy it! There were still plenty of Gardner 5 and 6LW engines to come in the single deck fleet though, with all the EUG fleet etc. Not quite the same though!

John Whitaker

---

18/12/12 – 13:48

The Keighley Straker must be the oldest complete preserved trolleybus, Chris, although there are the remnants of a 1914 "Bradford/Brown" at Bradford Industrial Museum, and this dates from c.1915, some 10 years earlier than the Straker.
It is also worth recording that the situations at York and Keighley were quite different with regard to their legal make-up, involving exact ownership of vehicles.

John Whitaker

---

20/12/12 – 07:59

Gordon, feel free to nitpick – that’s what makes this site so fascinating and informative. I hadn’t realised that Keighley was a Municipal Borough, and was glad I hadn’t let that one slip out in conversations with my Uncle Bernard, who is Keighley born and bred, and very proud of it! You’ve probably saved me from being taken off the Christmas card list! I certainly had no idea of its large geographical area either. Thanks for the information.
Richard’s comments about the Bristol KSW6Gs (DGW1-10) transported me back to 1966, when our family moved to Harrogate. For a while DGW10 was allocated to Grove Park depot, and it was a joy to see on local services. The Gardner 6LW engine sounded gorgeous, and the bus had a well-cared for look about it inside and out. Needless to say it was one of my favourites, along with DX2 (pre-production prototype LD Lodekka), DX62 (illuminated offside advertisement panel), and DX121 (modified exhaust system – nice gentle roar). Funny what draws us to individual vehicles isn’t it?

Brendan Smith

---

21/12/12 – 16:01

Were DGW’s 1 – 10 the ones with the ‘zig-zag’ seating arrangement on the upper deck ??
John I well remember WYIS tours in the 50’s – one on the newly repainted SG7 brought into service for the Canal Road shuttle, one to Durham District and one that took in the ex WY Dennis Ace at Hodder MS Slaidburn.
Moving on I know that the Keighley WY concern was a limited Company whereas York was just ‘York West Yorkshire Joint Services’. How did the two arrangements differ, particularly in respect of vehicle ownership to which you allude ?

Gordon Green

---

21/12/12 – 16:51

We must have met then, Gordon, as we did not miss (m)any of the trips with WYIS. I remember the Durham one particularly. Were you on the Lincolnshire one to see the green SGs and the one to York on the last J, to ride on the ADGs? Will come back re. the legal differences between the York and Keighley set-ups, as it was complicated, and I will try to highlight the main differences in as few words as I can muster, and I am not the best one to ask about staggered seating as I seem to remember it on some KSWs irrespective of engine type. I will consult with my good pal, Richard Fieldhouse.

John Whitaker

---

22/12/12 – 07:43

Hi Gordon. Re staggered seating on the KSW types, DGW 1-10 were all so fitted, as were DBW 25-34. These were of the single staggered type, and later in the 1950s, some of the remainder were altered by modifying the existing 4 seat benches into 2 seaters, and staggering these.
On the York and Keighley situations, Keighley was a joint company, "Keighley West Yorkshire Joint Services Ltd", with Corporation and Company directors.
At York, it was a Joint Committee, with the Corporation "owning" the services, but the company managing the operation, and owning the vehicles.
Thanks are particularly due to Richard Fieldhouse for the seating detail on the KSWs.

John Whitaker

---

23/12/12 – 07:13

On the subject of a company running a bus company on behalf of them can one of our North East experts explain why Beeline ran the buses of West Hartlepool? Was it because the council thought it was better for a coach company to take over the operation?

Philip Carlton

---

23/12/12 – 11:31

I’ve always assumed that the Hartlepool operation was "contracted-out" as we would call it today. They only started operation in their own right quite late and for small a small operation it would have been difficult to staff efficiently, so it was sub-contracted to Bee-Line who had the maintenance facilities and staff and all the other administrative facilities.
What would be interesting to know is whether the crew worked both Hartlepool and Bee-Line services or if there were staff dedicated to the municipal operation.

David Beilby

---

23/12/12 – 11:32

It was not ‘West’ but ‘old’ Hartlepool, there being two different towns. West was a County Borough, and Hartlepool the more ancient Municipal Borough.
In trolleybus days West Hartlepool Corporation ran between the two towns,the buses on that route being jointly owned by the two boroughs. When the trolleys were replaced by motorbuses in 1953 Hartlepool Corporation decided to start its own operation, and to operate the inter-town service jointly with West Hartlepool. Initially they bought four ex – London Transport Bristol utilities, which were later replaced by AEC Regents.
Hartlepool Corporation had no experience or management structure with which to run a bus company, and as far as I recall the legal ‘manager’ was the Town Clerk. It was always the intention that the operation would be managed by someone else on their behalf.
The intention was that the operation would be managed by United Auto, who took delivery of the Bristols, repainted and overhauled them for service and indeed allocated two new K class high-bridge double deckers to West Hartlepool garage to be available as back up. This arrangement fell through at the eleventh hour due to union problems; not unreasonably the union wanted the higher municipal pay rate for operating the Corporation service, and United were concerned that if granted this would set an expensive precedent for their services elsewhere (as well as for the rest of the BTC operations).
As a result Bee-Line took over at the last minute and continued to manage the service until the towns were amalgamated in 1967. The peak frequency had a 4 minute headroom, which required use of all four Hartlepool buses (as well as four from WHCT). As there was no reserve Bee Line’s own buses (a wide variety of second hand double deckers) were used on the joint service in the event of duplication or to cover for repairs and servicing. All Bee-Line buses had destination blinds for the service with the addition of ‘On Hire to Hartlepool Corporation’ – this even extended to their coaches, as I was surprised to find when a new touring coach turned up on a rush hour duplicate! Hartlepool buses, in return, had a destination display of ‘On Hire to Bee-Line’, but I cannot ever remember seeing this in use.
To the best of my knowledge the only other stage service involving Bee-Line was from West Hartlepool to Sedgefield, acquired with the business of Alton Brothers (Trimdon) Ltd. in 1945; this business was sold to Trimdon Motor Services in 1953, at about the same time that the Corporation contract was taken on; thereafter they were otherwise engaged on coaching and on works contracts.

David Todd

---

24/12/12 – 06:57

Yes John I was on the tour to Bracebridge Heath Lincoln – however I was only a schoolboy at the time. Thank you (and Richard) for the information about the upper deck seating on the KSW’s – I have to say that your ‘staggered’ sounds a little better than my ‘zig zag’ !
I always enjoy reading your comments about the Bradford area because I detect that you are perhaps a little older than me and you often provide background on vehicle history just before my own interest began and (to move off subject) you also re-kindle long forgotten memories such as the whining NCB and Brush bodied ‘Regens’ on Duckworth Lane, the Hebble ‘flyers’ etc etc.
Do you remember the cut down ‘grit’ vehicle that used to be parked outside the Duckworth Lane depot ? Do you have any information on its history ?

Gordon Green

---

24/12/12 – 12:46

Merry Christmas Gordon, and to everyone at OBP.
I can give you chapter and verse on the grit wagons of BCT if you wish, but there were 3 LT1 and 3 PLSC3 grit wagons in the 1945-53 period, and these were replaced c.1953 by cut down 8.8 litre Regents, including the East Lancs 1944 rebodies.
I am just pre-war, Gordon, so have some very vivid memories of transport in Bradford, and particularly West Bradford, but however old you are, it is always those few years before one’s own "recall" system which are the most fascinating. Mind you, I was only 15 when we went to Bracebridge Heath. If only I had seen centre entrance BCT single deck trolleys, PLSC Lions, West Yorkshire TD2s etc. In previous times, there were always people older than me who could set my imagination "on fire" by their personal recollections. They seem to have disappeared though.
We have all the detail on BCT trams, trolleys and buses, as well as most West Yorkshire detail, so come back for a New Year dialogue if you so wish.

John Whitaker

---

25/12/12 – 06:27

John I suppose were are now the people whose memories are just outside the ken of younger enthusiasts. It is a frightening thought that the last Regent Vs entered service nearly fifty years ago and to todays young enthusiasts they are as strange as the B type was to me. What is important is that our memories are made available to those who seek knowledge.

Chris Hough

---

25/12/12 – 09:28

A very Merry Christmas Day, and a Happy and Contented New Year to all at OBP, very especially Peter who has created and constantly maintained this wonderful facility for us.

Chris Hough – great to meet you at Pudsey, thanks for talking that day, and I echo entirely your sentiments on the rather amazing speed of the passage of time.

As one who can remember PLSC Lions, Gilfords and a host of other delightful and innovative (in one way or another) conveyances I must say that we’ve seen the finest of times. Among my strongest recollections are juvenile amazement at the appearance in WW2 of wooden seats, harsh exterior angles and spartan interiors – and, after the conflict ended, the arrival of the all Leyland PD1s which LOOKED like a logical successor to the silky smooth TDs but sounded extremely harsh with an alien diesel knock. I’ve since concluded that this must have been caused by dubious fuel at the time, and perhaps by fitters’ lack of familiarity with a totally new PSV engine’s tuning needs. After a few years the PD/PS1s became very melodious and of impressive performance and, although I hesitate to use the exclusive term "favourite", the model which gave me perhaps more pleasure in my career than any other.

All the best to everyone for 2013.

Chris Youhill

---

25/12/12 – 12:49

May I join John and Chris in the Christmas good wishes, and add my thanks to Peter for this brilliant forum. The moment I’ve checked emails in the morning I go eagerly to OBP (a kind of addiction, I suppose) and there’s invariably a new titbit of information, a new insight, an informed and often amusing comment. I’ve learnt as much from OBP as three dozen books would have taught me, and feel as though I’ve made real friends—though I’ve only ever met a couple of contributors. And as this is really a KSW thread, hats off to that magnificent steed! Years ago I read a letter to "Buses Illustrated" praising the RT and sympathising with those poor drivers who had to struggle with heavy old Bristols. Somehow I don’t think he’d ever driven a KSW, with its comfortable cab and light, precise controls.

Ian Thompson

---

12/01/13 – 13:45

To expand on Neil’s original comment re West Yorkshire depot allocation discs, the fuller list was:
Blue: Bradford.
Green: Harrogate – sub-depots Pateley Bridge and Otley.
Grey: Keighley – sub-depots Skipton, Ilkley and Grassington.
Maroon: Leeds – sub-depot Wetherby.
Yellow: York – sub-depots Malton and Scarborough.
(Otley depot was acquired with the Samuel Ledgard business in October 1967).

Brendan Smith

---

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

---

19/03/14 – 16:33

When I worked for West Yorks I went to Lowestoft to Eastern Coach Works to pick up new Leyland Olympians, I think this was in 1981? 1801 was one fleet no the other two which were brought to Harrogate was 1803 & 1804. I worked at Keighley the Olympians we brought where allocated to Keighley. I also remembered bringing one back it had a Vorth gear box I am not sure but I think it was fleet no 1830 this also was at Keighley.

John French

---

20/03/14 – 07:02

John F – Otley depot was provided with two brand new Olympians – one a saint, the other most definitely a sinner.
1812 was a gorgeous well behaved vehicle, as were practically all Olympians, and had the superb Hydracyclic 5 speed gearbox. In my opinion this gearbox was the finest semi automatic system of them all, allowing conscientious drivers to give superbly smooth rides at all times. Even those with no interest in the job other than to steer towards finishing time as early as possible ("Timetables" ?? – "What’s wunner them ??") found probably to their sadistic disappointment that the benign Olympians would do their best to hide the bad habits. Music lovers amongst us will readily appreciate why 1812 enjoyed the affectionate nickname of "The overture."
On the other side of the discussion 1819, with its beastly and badly behaved 3 speed gearbox really was a horror. Apart from anything else the wide ratios were patently totally unsuitable for a heavy vehicle needing to stop and start frequently, often on harsh inclines. Nobody seemed to bother to intelligently hold a chosen gear with the buttons, which could calm the rodeo down to a reasonable extent. Most major car manufacturers even abandoned three speed boxes, and the same ridiculous drawback unfairly saddled the generally excellent MCW Metrobus with an unwarranted bad reputation. A four speed option was available but for some reason rarely specified by operators.
In conclusion, I must say that these adverse remarks about the Voith 1819 are absolutely the only criticism anyone will hear from me about the glorious Olympian family, providers of the most civilised and safe roadholding and comfort of any "third generation" double decker in my experience as a driver and as a passenger.

Chris Youhill

---

20/03/14 – 17:05

As ever, I find myself in complete agreement with Chris about the quality and qualities of the Olympian. It proves both that there were good later generation buses and also that Leyland could, and did, build them. As we’ve said before – don’t confuse Leyland with British Leyland. [I would include the TRC Tiger in the above – but it was probably not quite so well behaved as the Olympian!]

David Oldfield

---

20/03/14 – 17:06

I entirely agree with you, Chris. The Olympian was a very good bus design, and the Hydracyclic 5 speeder was probably the smoothest gearbox of the auto/semi auto variety ever fitted to a psv, though the older SCG was fine if used correctly. Sadly, all too many of the driving workforces throughout the bus industry could not be bothered to use semi automatic gearboxes properly, which is why the fully auto box now reigns supreme. Leyland developed the Hydracyclic into the automatic G2, and this, unlike all the other automatic efforts (except the Allison) did not lurch down into the lower gears as road speed diminished; to change down on overrun one just blipped the engine. The Voith 3 speed gearbox was (and is) an abomination. The thing would only change up when engine revs were screaming against the governor, and lower gears would snatch in at far too high a speed when slowing down. The Optare Spectra with DAF engine and Voith box was the most unpleasant species of "modern" double decker that I have driven, though the Volvo Olympian so equipped ran it close. What would some of today’s F1 inspired pcv drivers make of a ‘back to front’ Dennis crash gearbox with preselective overdrive, I wonder.

Roger Cox