Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

West Yorkshire 774 (DB 36) Bristol K6B is seen new at Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford on the Ilkley stand in 1950 on the 63 service via Manningham Lane to Shipley, an intermediate place before Ilkley. The service at this time ran every 30 minutes with the alternate bus in the hour running as a 68 service via Canal Road to Shipley and then to Ilkley. Only recently had the 63/68 service been operated by double deckers due to a revision of the route in Ilkley which now avoided a low railway bridge in Ben Rhydding. The Bradford to Ilkley service was previously operated by single decker pre-war Bristol L5Gs and Bristol JO5Gs.
This was a route I used often and loved the challenge to the buses climbing Hollins Hill and also the (A65) road dip under the railway bridge near Burley-in-Wharfedale. This bridge was removed after the line from Burley to Otley closed in March 1965. The road level was then changed so no more excitement at testing the bus suspension.
The Bristol K6B/ECW buses were the workhorses for many BTC fleets during the fifties and sixties and this was certainly the case with West Yorkshire. I can never recall a breakdown and the Bristol K6B was certainly a most reliable type of bus. A lovely feature which I often heard on a still evening at home was the throb across the fields of the Bristol AVW engine caused I think by the fuel governor. Perhaps someone with more expert knowledge of Bristol bus mechanics can explain.
Another interesting feature at Chester Street Bus Station seen on the photograph was the green hut adjacent to the Ilkley stand which served as the Inspectors Office. This hut had also the store racks for the “bible” indicators used on most of the pre-war West Yorkshire buses. This hut was always a fascinating place for a small boy to watch the busy activity of the drivers/conductors collecting or returning these cumbersome indicator boards.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

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25/05/11 – 16:52

Dare I be precocious enough Richard to say that this excellent piece was written specially for me ?? – a tongue in cheek remark obviously. This is a route known very well to me as a passenger and, later, as a conductor when I worked at WYRCC’s Ilkley Depot in 1960/1. As you rightly say, the Inspectors’ green hut in Chester Street was a constant hive of activity.
Did you know that Chester Street was actually the public thoroughfare right through the centre of the bus station??, although virtually all motorists assumed that it belonged to The Company and so didn’t dare to use it !! Sometime after the "double decking" of the Ilkley services the hourly 68 was discontinued (apart from a few peak hour trips Monday to Friday) and the half hourly service became entirely 63 via Manningham Lane.
There were actually two adjacent railway bridges over the A65 below Menston and, as you say, it was somewhat terrifying for passengers and drivers on the approach, as it seemed certain that the bus roof would be rudely removed – and the sensation was even worse with Samuel Ledgard’s highbridge vehicles.
I can’t honestly remember the intermediate destination blinds being as commendably detailed as shown here – later editions showed only Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross. The bottom line in this picture is a little blurred but appears also to say Burley Ben Rhydding. Incidentally the Company seemed to think that Bradford residents would not have heard of Ben Rhydding and so the rule was that on leaving Bradford "ILKLEY" would be shown, and upon reaching the area of local knowledge at Burley the display had to be altered to show "BEN RHYDDING." I’m always blissfully happy to be reminded of those lovely enjoyable days so thank you again.

Chris Youhill

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26/05/11 – 07:30

Very interesting comments about Bradford. Whilst I have a good knowledge of the present day city centre, I’m afraid I have no memories of how it was. Would I be correct in thinking that Chester Street Bus Station was taken out of use when the interchange opened? Do any traces of it still exist or has it been completely obliterated? I’ve seen many a photograph taken against the background of the white wall and always thought it looked a very evocative place.

Chris Barker

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27/05/11 – 08:35

I’ve no idea, Chris B, about the present status of Chester Street but I’ll certainly have an "on site" look next time I visit the National Media Museum only a couple of hundred yards (or metres nowadays) away.

Chris Youhill

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27/05/11 – 08:37

Chester Street closed with the advent of the Interchange. Chester Street is now just a street and is changed totally although some of the buildings on the"West Yorkshire" side still exist

Chris Hough

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27/05/11 – 09:35

I fear, Chris Y, that you will be sadly disappointed, although not surprised, at the present state of Chester Street. It is now a busy dual-carriageway – part of a typical inner-city gyratory road system. However, some of the background buildings seen on old bus photos are still recognisable, eg. the roof lights of the old Public Baths in Morley Street (now a Wetherspoons).
On the Hebble side, there’s a new building, but the West Yorkshire loading area now seems to be a car park. The much-rebuilt 1960s Mecca Ballroom multi-storey, seen in latter day photos of the bus station, still dominates the background at the western entrance.

Paul Haywood

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29/05/11 – 07:18

Chris B, as Chris H says, Chester Street bus station was closed following the opening of the Interchange in I think, 1977 – the year of The Queen’s Silver Jubilee. Chris Y’s comment about Chester Street being a public thoroughfare is most interesting, as I remember the roadway very well, but must admit would not have dared to use it for the reason outlined by Chris! The bus station spanned an area between Little Horton Lane (opposite the Silver Blades ice rink) and Morley Street (opposite the top end – or rear – of The Alhambra theatre). It was a place of much interest to the enthusiast with West Yorkshire, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, Hebble and Samuel Ledgard vehicles using it. (Am I right in thinking that Ribble also used it for coaches linking Lancashire and Yorkshire?) In the mid-sixties Bradford CT added even more variety with its AEC Regent Vs and Daimler CVG6LXs, following an agreement allowing joint operation of the Bradford – Eldwick – Dick Hudson’s service with West Yorkshire. It seemed strange at first seeing a bright blue ‘Corporation’ bus in what otherwise seemed to be a mainly red ‘Company’ bus station, but Bradfordians are not easily fazed and took it all in their stride! As Paul states, Chester Street still exists, but sadly as yet another stretch of dual carriageway.

Brendan Smith

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31/05/11 – 18:49

This piece was written for me too, Chris. What amazing memories it conjures up! Many a time have I boarded the bus for Ilkley at that very spot against the famous green shed.
I knew Chester Street as a lad, right up to leaving Bradford in 1968, and remember the through street so well, and can count 6 operators who used the facility:-
West Yorkshire, Ledgard, Hebble, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, and Sheffield (C ?).
West Riding also came into Bradford, but from memory, did not use Chester Street.
I always associate older generation Bristols with Gardner "5"s, but the AVW was extremely characterful from a "music" point of view, and made for an extremely fast bus. I can remember "flying" along on the routes out of Bradford, especially past Shipley, and the HWW batch represented, to me, the pinnacle of ECW post war design. Flush interior sides, tubular seats, and metal framing all came together in these vehicles to produce a quality of vehicle not yet bettered, in my view. Superb buses!

John Whitaker

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01/06/11 – 07:44

I’m glad there is such affection for the Bristol K (especially the 6B). Many people seem to turn their noses up, calling them boring and bog-standard etc. and I hate to hear it. For sure, you could find them from Lands End (Western National) to Northumberland (United), and Yarmouth (Eastern Counties) to Pwellheli (Crosville)- and a lot of other places and operators in between (take a bow, West Yorkshire). But you will notice that all of the extremities I listed are coastal holiday destinations. For me Bristol K6Bs (and their melodious note in second and third gears, which I could cheerfully listen to for hours) are inextricably associated with happy memories of seaside holidays. (And the sun always shone!)

Stephen Ford

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01/06/11 – 07:47

I agree fully John with your commendation of the "HWW" DBs, but their super qualities were suddenly eclipsed for we Ilkley folk when 806 – 809 (DBW1 – 4) arrived – 8 feet wide and with classy white steering wheels. Originally having open platforms (returned later to ECW for doors) they seemed quite simply enormous and spacious and they are a batch from my teenage years which I still hold in great affection.

Chris Youhill

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01/06/11 – 07:50

The Chester Street, Bradford thread made me dig out this photo of Ledgard MLL 828 (former RT3518) which clearly shows the through road between the chain fences separating the West Yorkshire stands from "the others". Unlike most of my photos, this one has the date 14 June 1964 written on it, and it shows the buildings on Little Horton Road being demolished to make way for the Silver Blades Ice Rink (owned by Mecca but not a Ballroom as I mistakenly said in my previous thread.)

Paul Haywood

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01/06/11 – 10:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the "new" excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker

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01/06/11 – 10:22

Stephen, among my many fond memories of the "DB"s one of my favourite recollections couldn’t possibly be further from the seaside !! When I was a conductor at WYRCC Ilkley Depot any of our Lodekkas away for the statutory two weeks overhaul was replaced by a "KDB" from Keighley – one of the batch between KDB 54 -7. One foul Winter evening, with very heavy snow, I left Ilkley with the 5.25 pm to Haworth on service K12 driven by Brian Wadsworth. After we left Addingham to climb to the "whited out" summit at Marchup Cottages the bus began to boil very seriously. This, of course, was long before two way radios and mobile telephones and we felt rather as if we were approaching the North Pole. – "Only one thing for it" said Brian "We’ll have to fill it up with snow." We both set about the task with gusto, while the red hot radiator and engine hissed and tinkled in astonished protest. Once we achieved the necessary level we resumed the journey – to Haworth and back to Ilkley for 8.07pm – without incident. Looking back of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a really foolish first aid measure which I imagine could have caused considerable damage – if Brendan is reading this I must plead forgiveness on the grounds of youthful ignorance of engineering matters and hope that he won’t hold it against me !!

Chris Youhill

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01/06/11 – 11:22

I agree with Stephen on every count – especially the AVW

David Oldfield

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01/06/11 – 16:50

With such foul weather, I assume, Chris Y, that the radiator was emptied and re-filled with water/antifreeze mix later, to avoid saying goodbye prematurely to the radiator and/or block!

Chris Hebbron

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02/06/11 – 05:57

Don’t worry Chris, most people would excuse your first aid measure, as you and your driver showed great initiative under extreme conditions in order to keep the show on the road! Your escapade reminded me of a tale related by Ken Robinson, for many years engine shop foreman at West Yorkshire’s Central Works. Ken was going home to Knaresborough one evening after work, and noted that the bus he was travelling on (a Lodekka) had started to boil en route. On arrival at the bus station the bus was steaming away merrily, but the driver seemed oblivious to this and was about to depart for Harrogate again when Ken intervened. Built like a Foden truck, he was a very fair man, but one who did not suffer fools gladly and spoke his mind when ruffled. He informed the driver who he was, and said under no circumstances was he to leave the site without filling the bus up with water. The driver, no doubt trying to avert being reported, duly did this, and Ken went on his way. Ken said he had only realised a little while later what he had asked of the driver, and hoped that the Lodekka’s red hot radiator and cylinder block had not cracked when the cold water had been poured in!! Thankfully all must been well as he heard no more about the incident, and no doubt gave a sigh of relief that the driver had not reported HIM!!

Brendan Smith

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12/06/11 – 07:54

My best memories of all types of Bristol are from WYRCC service 30 between Bradford and Leeds. From Bradford the route ran along Canal Road, then up Kings Road with a right turn into steep Queens Road, which is where the fun began. There were almost inevitably passengers to alight/board just after the lights, and if the driver was really unlucky, also at the stop a little further up, which meant a standing start on a steep incline just before the gradient became even worse prior to the junction with Bolton Road. I recall that on a fully-laden bus on this steepest section all conversation would cease as the driver waited for the very last engine beat before engaging bottom gear in the crash gearbox. If successful, (as it usually was), there would be a collective sigh of relief, and a settling down for the long slow haul up to Bolton Junction, a stretch of road shared with Bradford trolleybuses which flew up the gradient in great contrast to the grinding Bristols.

Robert Appleby

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13/06/11 – 07:59

Very evocative, Robert, I can picture the scene vividly, just as you describe!

Chris Hebbron

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19/06/11 – 10:28

Your stories of boiling Bristols takes me back to the early 1950’s and to the sunny fields of Somerset. My Great Aunt had a farm at Somerton and my mother and I used to travel from Bristol to stay for a week or so during the school holidays. At the time my father had a firm’s car but could not use it privately so to get there involved a journey on the bus. Leaving Prince Street (the original bus terminal), we rode on mostly Bristol GO5G or Lowbridge K Bristols, the height being important due to the number of railway bridges on the A38 as the old Radstock coal lines and the wonderful Somerset and Dorset railways crossed over the road.
The journey was around forty miles down to Street where the route ended and my most clear memory was that it seemed to take the whole afternoon to get there and when we arrived the bus was always boiling merrily but nobody seemed concerned! The stop was outside a hotel and maybe the driver topped up for the return journey home with water from there.
The onward journey to Somerton was around 5/6 miles and for that part my memory is dim but with the benefit of age, I’m fairly sure it was probably done in a locally run Bedford OB.. another of my favourites!
Memories! I’m sorry my posting is not about the Yorkshire days but back then, it might as well have been in Africa for us Southern softies!

Richard Leaman

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11/07/11 – 07:36

Like Stephen, I too am glad there is much affection for the Bristol/ECW K (and come to that, its single-decked sibling the L). It has all the hallmarks of a classic bus in having a well-engineered chassis with an enviable reliability record, a soundly-constructed yet attractively-styled body, and above all else a fitness for purpose. The melodious gearbox was an added bonus, together with that ‘chuckle’ from the transmission sometimes heard when setting off up a gentle incline.
Robert’s comments about the notorious hill starts at the Queen’s Road/Bolton Road junction in Bradford brought back memories as I know that area well. Another ‘unlucky driver’ spot was the bus stop towards the top end of Hollins Hill between Shipley and White Cross, which served the residents of Esholt. For a while in the mid-sixties I travelled by bus to school in Bradford each day from Harrogate (route 53 via Otley) and dreaded this stop on the journey home, where speed was obviously of the essence. A ‘drop off’ here meant an endless crawl in a low gear to the top of the hill for the poor bus and its driver – even with the newer Lodekkas. As a schoolboy I found it both fascinating and frustrating that passengers only ever seemed to alight here – nobody ever boarded! In my schoolboy mind I was convinced that ‘they’ did this deliberately, rather than catching their own Esholt (65) bus home! For much of the journey Samuel Ledgard ‘deckers could also be seen, and a schoolboy cheer could often be heard when ‘our’ West Yorkshire steed overtook one at a bus stop – only to be replaced with a "boo!" when the ‘Sammie’s’ passed us at a bus stop later on! Happy days indeed.

Brendan Smith

——— Top of this posting ———

Copyright Bob Gell

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1954
Bristol K5G 
ECW H28/28R

A fine vehicle indeed, but quite sad in some ways. This typical ex-Tilling Group Bristol K5G is spending its final days on loan to Yorkshire Woollen District, after its parent company (York-West Yorkshire) had lost its Tilling identity to the National Bus Company.

Eleven Bristol K5Gs were added to the York – West Yorkshire fleet in 1939, being numbered Y395-9/Y701-6, and registered DWU 133-7/994-9, (706 is seen to the right here).
They gave sterling service, and will always be remembered by West Yorkshire fans as a contrast to the dominance of the post war style in the fleet, as they lasted in original form until 1954/5.
In 1954/5, they were taken out of service, and were to re-emerge with handsome new 4 bay ECW bodies as seen here. New chassis frames were used, but the running units were fully overhauled and re-fitted. Because new chassis frames were fitted, the rebuilt vehicles were re-registered OWT 195-205.
To cover their temporary absence, 3 most interesting vehicles were purchased from Brighton, Hove and District, and these would merit a post in themselves! They were 1931/2 AEC “Regents” which had “Gardner 5s”, and 1944 ECW highbridge bodies to the post war profile, being quite similar to the prototype body built the same year on a K5G for the Tilling Group. A ride on one of these vehicles was like being at a symphony concert…. melodies and harmonies from the gearbox and engine were beyond description, but a delight nevertheless. One could perhaps walk quicker than the top speed of these veterans, which were numbered ADG 1-3 in the new 1954 system!
To return to our rebuilt K5Gs, they re-entered service with YDG numbers in the new system mentioned above, and settled down to give another fine spell of service, before succumbing to the inevitable FS type Lodekka, and others.
The new numbers were YDG 82-92 and YDG 88 is seen in our main photograph above, which was taken by Bob at Dewsbury bus station in July 1969.
York-West Yorkshire was a truly wonderful fleet, and how lucky we West Yorkshire enthusiasts were to have these two “side fleets” of Keighley , and York, which both had their own character and contrast to the main fleet. Keighley, and the main fleet always used lowbridge double deckers, whereas York used the highbridge layout, and the flat terrain was ideal for the K5G. I can still hear them chugging sedately round that beautiful old city!
As always, when nostalgia kicks in, it is really difficult to grasp the passage of time, it now being well over 40 years since the demise of these buses. York never seems (quite) the same place these days, without the super old red and cream buses which were part of the character of the place!

Photograph Bob Gell, insert shot S J N White with copy by John Whitaker

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

A full list of West Yorkshire fleet codes can be seen here.

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13/03/11 – 10:38

Thank you, thank you, John, for your wonderful write-up that so faithfully reflects the spirit of the York-West Yorkshire fleet of my childhood and youth. I was brought up with the 1939 K5Gs; the photo of 706, with its original ‘bible’, (or ‘flap-board’), indicator is shown on route 6, regularly operated with these vehicles, as was service 2 between Stuart Road and Bur Dyke Avenue. I remember so well as a small boy waiting at our local bus stop with my mother, telling her the service number of the next bus to arrive – you could hear it before you saw it – by the sound of the engine. Sometimes you could even tell individual vehicles from their distinctive engine notes. The rebodying exercise resulted in these buses having a remarkable total life of almost 30 years with Y-WY. It did produce the cynical response amongst some York residents, however, that re-registering them was a bit of a con trick by the Joint Undertaking to disguise the vehicles’ true age.
In service the rebuilt vehicles tended, to be truthful, to lack performance, (were the new bodies heavier?), even on York’s relatively flat terrain. Y-WY had a policy of allocating Bristol and Gardner engined buses to different routes, but some routes might have either. I worked for Y-WY as a conductor in 1962 and 1963, and getting a YDG rather than a YDB or YDX was a sign that you could well end up running late at peak times.
You also mention the famous ADGs. I never came across them because my father worked abroad during their entire time with Y-WY, but I remember a driver on the Fulford Rota – they were mainly used on the 4/4A route – demonstrating to me in graphic and most amusing detail that they were the most unpleasant and unrewarding vehicles he ever drove. He said the pedals were very high while the gear lever was positioned low down and behind the driver, so that all gear changes required an act of contortion. He reckoned – as you say, ADGs were not noticeably quick – that a change from third to second was a lottery to be avoided at all costs, and claimed, (of course drivers were not always accurate in their interpretations of management decisions), that the reason the ADGs were usually allocated to the Fulford Rota was to reduce that eventuality by avoiding Holgate Hill.
Incidentally, they were never actually owned by Y-WY, despite having the name on the side, but were hired from WY.
Finally, the colour picture of YDG88 shows it with its later, T-shaped destination indicator. Originally, it had the full three-section indicator, which had five different blinds to set. When you were running late on Service 3/11, changing from 11A back to 3 at the terminus was a drag, especially if it was your last trip before being relieved and you had an impatient driver.
Thank you again, John. Happy days, indeed!

Roy Burke

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13/03/11 – 10:46

I was very interested to see the photograph of West Yorkshire OWT 281. These were along with others initially hired from West Yorkshire and then taken in to the Yorkshire Woollen fleet during a vehicle shortage. I remember conducting these buses.

Philip Carlton

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14/03/11 – 07:17

John W has said some wonderful things about York West Yorkshire and brought back many fond memories of my visits to York in the early fifties. West Yorkshire Road Car was in my view a quality ex Tilling Company and always produced some excellent rebuilt pre-war Bristol K5G buses from their Harrogate Works. The final York K5Gs were their last re-bodies to appear and were based again on a solid Bristol engineering and a Gardner 5LW.

Richard Fieldhouse

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14/03/11 – 07:22

Roy’s last paragraph reminds me of the ultimate "pantomime" concerning the changing of multiple destination displays. When I was a West Yorkshire conductor at Ilkley we had a route to Heber’s Ghyll – five minutes each way and no recovery (standing) time. Single deckers were always used and had three piece displays front and rear, and always went straight onto other routes with differing information.

Chris Youhill

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14/03/11 – 13:17

I am really pleased Roy, that you enjoyed the post about what are obviously favourite buses to us both! Thanks also for the ADG anecdotes.
I believe the OWT rebodies would be less lively than the originals, as they would, as you suggest, be heavier.
There really was something special and "ponderous" about YWY which was absolutely fascinating. We lived in Bradford, but passed through regularly on the way to Bridlington, and our weekend/holiday tram bungalow at Skipsea. Lucky you, living there. You must have plenty of WY experience to share with us!

John Whitaker

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16/03/11 – 11:14

As you say, John, I had lots of pleasant and amusing experiences with York-West Yorkshire, which I’d happily share, except that much the same could be said of anyone who’s worked as a conductor with any operator. Two examples: Chris has shared his recollection of changing a blind in a hurry. Great fun, but I bet there are many readers of this site who have had the unnerving experience of changing a front blind as the driver reversed into a side road. I’ve done that many times, but I used to draw the line at the driver pulling forward again while I was still clinging on although jumping off as the driver did so was a real recipe for trouble!
Also, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about missing the red and cream buses, the atmosphere of York City itself has changed a great deal in the last half century; not for the better in my view, but that’s life. I recall, incidentally, a passenger who must then have been about the same age we are now telling me he remembered when the colour of the City’s buses was blue, so…..

Roy Burke

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16/03/11 – 14:18

Hi Roy. I cannot remember the blue buses in York, but I do know what you mean!.
I was in York two Saturdays ago for a railway Museum visit, and I must admit it was a little too "Touristy" for my taste these days. Things change. Maybe we could share our photo collections a bit, as we probably both have gaps. Just a thought, and good to share happy memories with another enthusiast.

John Whitaker

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23/03/11 – 17:55

As a boy the first time I really took any notice of buses was on a holiday to Bournemouth (late 60’s), looking out for KSW’s without a dented front or rear dome (there weren’t many) I thought the Green and Cream livery on the Hants and Dorset buses very smart until I noticed a Red and Cream Lodekka FLF belonging Wilts and Dorset, I liked the squarer profile of the K to the more rounded Lodekka. M y dad couldn’t understand why we had to go past the bus station each day, a great holiday and buses.

Roger Broughton

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24/03/11 – 06:39

Hi, has anyone out there a West Yorkshire fleet list that I could have a copy of, as my own list is a very sketchy one?

Keith Easton

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24/03/11 – 18:25

Hi Keith
Re. WYRC fleet list. I have the one in the old TPC book by Keith Jenkinson, but it is a bit sketchy, with no withdrawal dates. I could transcribe this over time, into acceptable format and put it forward for inclusion in the new fleet list section. There is, however, both a PSV Circle list, and a West Yorkshire Information Service (now defunct) list which gives a lot more detail, so before embarking on any such project, does any of our "fraternity" have one of these publications. I am afraid mine disappeared years ago, although I have taken extracts from PSVC one at the Omnibus Soc. archives.
If I go ahead with this, it will need someone else to take over after about 1956, when my interest begins to wane!

John Whitaker

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25/03/11 – 08:16

Hi John, Thanks for the offer, but the TPC book is where my somewhat sketchy list came from! I have most details from the 1980’s, and the earlier ones would be most welcome, but perhaps wait until we see what, if anything, materialises. Once again thanks for your offer.

Keith Easton

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09/05/11 – 08:11

After reading all the interesting comments above about the York fleet, I seemed to recall that at some point YWY had considered purchasing some second hand KSWs for the fleet. On looking through John F Gill’s fascinating and very informative book ‘York-West Yorkshire Joint Services – 50 Years of Joint Services 1934-1984’ again, this was confirmed. What surprised me though was the lateness of the year – 1967. At this time YWY was ordering new VR and RE buses for its 1968/9 deliveries, to replace the rebuilt K5Gs (including YDG 88 illustrated above) and two of the 1951 KS-types, which according to the book would have left eight YDBs in service, and that the JOC were considering purchasing eight 1954 KSWs from Bristol Omnibus to replace them! However, it was later decided not to pursue the matter, as the cost of bringing the vehicles up to standard would have been uneconomic. (The book states that the only Bristol Omnibus double deckers that fitted the date quoted would have been highbridge KSWs from the PHW/SHW-registered batches). Given the notorious reliability problems with the early VRTs though, maybe the JOC were on the right track after all!

Brendan Smith

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10/05/11 – 07:26

I used to travel on united counties between Derngate and Earls Barton. The routes on A45 were mostly 402 and 404. K6A were normal, but 3 buses had 6 cyl engines 615 662 were 2 of them. in the morning it was 2 L5G single deckers every day. These had an overdrive gear engaged from 4th. it was only usable from about 40mph. occasionally the speed reached nearly 60 on the down hills, but how I wish they had the familiar [to me] Daimler gearboxes. the town buses were so different but i think all had Gardner 5s. I was at Barton turn one day and 4 corporation buses roared past where the K5s struggled.

P Bartlett

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10/05/11 – 07:30

Brendan’s point about York-West Yorks looking at Bristol OC K types is interesting given that some of their own would have gone to Yorkshire Woollen in 1969 to a vehicle shortage there!

Chris Hough

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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22/01/12 – 11:38

Having been away from from my computer for a while, I’ve only just seen this excellent posting, which for me – by co-incidence it’s now within a day or two of being exactly 50 years since I began working for York-West Yorkshire – has particular nostalgia. I remember these vehicles very well indeed, and must have worked on YDG88 many, many times.
The re-bodied 1939 K5Gs were probably the most unpopular vehicles in the Y-WY fleet – certainly amongst the crews, and in so far as they took any notice of the bus they were travelling on, with passengers too. As Richard F points out, they were noisy and and rough, both the ride and the engine note. The photo was, I believe, taken in Rougier Street, where the sound of anything pulling away with a full load and a 5LW engine reverberated loudly. Since there would often be an East Yorkshire Leyland passing through at the same time, the comparison was not flattering to Y-WY!
They were also slow, even in comparison with the re-bodied 1938 K5Gs, which I’ve always assumed, (others, better informed, might disabuse me of that notion), was due to their body weight. Some drivers would, for example, use first gear when pulling away from the traffic lights at the junction of Queen Street and Blossom Street with a full load, the only vehicles on which this ever happened. On the question of re-registering, Keith Jenkinson, in his highly informative book, ‘York City Buses’, says that the decision was taken at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 20 July 1954: ‘…as they would appear as "new" buses, it was agreed that they should be re-registered in order to reflect that.’ A popular explanation amongst the crews – I don’t vouch for its truthfulness – was that a City Councillor on the Joint Committee was facing re-election and was keen to get York some ‘new’ buses since there hadn’t been any since February 1952. Giving the vehicles new fleet numbers was just being consistent with new registration numbers.
One point has always baffled me and I’d be grateful for an explanation from someone. Some of these vehicles ended up with Yorkshire Woollen District to cover for that company’s vehicle shortage in, I think, 1969. My query is about the reasons for YWD’s shortage. All BET companies had a vehicle replacement programme, so what caused the shortage?

Roy Burke

Copyright Ian Wild

Rotherham Corporation
1949
Bristol K6B
East Lancs H30/26R

Rotherham was an enthusiastic Bristol operator until they became no longer available to non Tilling Companies. 180 is one of a batch of four Bristol L6B originally with Bruce B32C bodies delivered in 1949 and all rebodied in 1951 (only two years later) by East Lancs as H30/26R double deckers.

The photo was taken in August 1967 at the Chapeltown terminus of service 16. My information doesn’t include any withdrawal dates but the bus was a creditable 18 years old at the time.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

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180 lasted in service until 1967, one year later than the other three.

Chris Hebbron

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Ah! Blue and cream – almost as good as cream and blue (Sheffield).
Living in the far South West of Sheffield, I lived just about as far from Rotherham as I could be and the 69 went to Exchange Street, not Pond Street Bus Station. I am a fan of Bristol engined Bristols but wasn’t aware of Rotherham’s Bristols until long after they had gone. It was the AECs and Daimlers that I remember – and of course the AECs were actually in the minority.
Ironically, Rotherham was to become significant to me – as a musician – in later years, and still is today.

David Oldfield

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What a coincidence, David. I too lived on the south west side of Sheffield. I was at a training centre in Rawmarsh for 6 months during the winter of 1962/3 and travelled daily by bus. The 69 of course was a joint Sheffield/Rotherham service, Rotherham’s contribution almost exclusively being a Crossley. Rotherham had one single lady driver which was unusual in those days but she was a complete master (mistress?) of the Crossleys. Sheffield used their three ‘stock’ all Leyland PD2s (601-603), with their none standard destination displays on the 69. I seem to remember them having a brown seating material rather than Sheffield standard.
From Rotherham I travelled to Rawmarsh by Mexborough and Swinton. Their lowbridge Atlanteans were quite unusual to my eyes although later I worked for a fleet with 105 of them! Best thing about M&S was the almost exclusive use of conductresses, many of them rather attractive!!
Does anyone have any photos of the M&S Atlanteans?

Ian Wild

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The interesting question is, why were these vehicles re-bodied after only two years? It’s inconceivable that the Bruce bodies would have been unserviceable after such a short time, I believe Bruce had a good reputation and weren’t they associated with East Lancs? Was it the case that Rotherham suddenly had a desperate need for double deckers? and were the original bodies re-used on other chassis?
Did the fact that they were single deck chassis have any effect on the rear platform of the re-bodied vehicles, such as the Wallace Arnold re-bodied Daimlers for Kippax and Farsley with their two-step platforms?

Chris Barker

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And it wasn’t a cheap conversion, either. They were delivered as Bristol L6B’s, which were single decker chassis. The Bruce bodies were classified B32C’s which suggests that they were originally coaches rather than single-deck buses. The chassis were then rebuilt to K6B standard and fitted with the East Lancs double decker bodies. It’s likely that even the gearbox/axle ratios needed changing. But, as Chris B says, what were the ‘coaches’ originally planned for?

Chris Hebbron

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Two-step platforms: there was a fashion for these in the early 50’s: Doncaster had some new Roes in the 120’s with two step platforms and cranked seats- was it a way of dealing with 7ft 6in widths for narrow streets (or narrow washers depending which version you prefer)?

Joe

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I wonder if it was something to do with Rotherham getting wind of the impending loss of access to new Bristols. They may have taken whatever they could get hold of before the stable door was finally locked and bolted, on the basis that a 6B is a 6B, whatever happens to be sitting on top of it. It is quite probable that there would be a second-hand market for four good-quality coach bodies no more than two years old. From an accounting point of view it is quite likely that the subsequent rebodying would be done through the maintenance budget. So there would be few questions asked (however much it cost), compared with the approval process for purchasing new capital stock.

Stephen Ford

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PSV Circle fleet supplement P71R dated October 1963 provides further information. Eight 1949 Bristol L6Bs were rebodied with double deck bodies in 1951, fleet numbers 112-114 and 179-184. The displaced single deck bodies were fitted to prewar L5Gs fleet numbers 137/140/142/143 of 1938 and 159-162 of 1939. Of these, at least 137 etc originally had Cravens bodies. All were withdrawn in 1957/1958. Please note these B32C bodies were bus bodies (not coach)- the C refers to central entrance which seems to have been a Rotherham speciality as the Cravens bodies were of the same configuration.

Ian Wild

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Following on from Ians comment, centre entrances were very common in this area. Rotherham also ran many centre entrance single decker Daimler trolleybuses, a number of which were rebodied at a very young age with Roe double deck bodies. Rotherham were the joint operator with Mexborough and Swinton on services between Rotherham and Conisborough via Mexborough. Most of the ‘tracklesses’ operated by the Mexborough system were centre entrance with only a few very early examples and some wartime second hand vehicles bucking the trend. One of the latest centre door vehicles that I can think of in that area was a Doncaster CT Regal IV that from new was equipped with a centre door body albeit rebuilt to dual entrance later in life.

Dates relevant to the bus shown in the photo above are:-
Date into service – March 1949 (original body was by Bruce on East Lancs frames)
Chassis modified from L6B to K6B and rebodied by East Lancs in April 1951
Withdrawn October 1967 it passed to Autospares of Bingley for scrap in December 1967.
The original single deck body was used to rebody the refurbished chassis of a 1940 L5G of the CET 44x batch numbers 159 – 162

Andrew Charles

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27/02/11 – 12:00

Some interesting comments here, but does putting a double-deck body on a Bristol L make it a K? I grew up in Bristol and remember all the rebodying that went on but Bristol Omnibus never did a single to double deck conversion. The L chassis was 27′ 6" long, the K 26′ but, by the time of Rotherham’s rebodying, double deckers were allowed to be 27′ long. So how long was 180? Rotherham went on to buy the KS chassis, the only non-Tilling operator to do so; comparing photo-graphs of the two, 180 is almost certainly 26′ long, so the chassis had to be shortened to fit the new double deck body.

Geoff Kerr

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