Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1949
Guy Arab III
Pickering H56R

Here’s another odd ball for you, it’s a Guy Arab from Northern General’s Tynemouth and Wakefields subsidiary. I would guess from the registration it’s from about the late 40’s. I don’t know how many were in the batch or who built the bodies, but they’re unlike any other of Northern’s Guy’s that I know of. Northern were huge fans of the Gardner 5LW, and the vast majority of their Guy’s were fitted with them, but for reasons unknown to myself these vehicles came with a Meadows engine, were they perhaps re bodies? The engines were later changed and many had the 5LW fitted as replacements, but at least one of them ended up with an AEC unit, this ones also got the Indian Chief radiator cap, I wonder if that survived? I can remember them, but by the time I started at Percy Main they were long gone.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

23/05/12 – 09:32

It looks very like a locally built Northern Coachbuilders body. Sheffield used them as an alternative to Weymann. Sheffield’s last were delivered in 1950, I think NCB closed shortly afterwards.

Ian Wild

23/05/12 – 09:33

This appears to be a Northern Caochbuilders bodied Guy Arab III Tynemouth had some similar chassis with Weymann bodywork Northern General also bought NCB bodied Guys but these had a short life with NGT.

Chris Hough

23/05/12 – 09:35

The bodies on these Meadows 6DC630 engined Arab IIIs, of which there were ten delivered in 1949, were by Pickering, and reputedly had metal frames. This picture, and some accompanying information, may also be found on this site:- //www.flickr.com/  From this, it appears that all the Meadows engined Arabs, apart from No. 169, which received a 5LW, were re-engined with AEC 7.7s. The Meadows unit was very compact – like contemporary Dennis and Daimler designs, the timing gears were located at the rear of the engine – and the Meadows engined Arab had a short bonnet that could not accommodate the 6LW. Most operators that purchased Meadows engines replaced them with alternative power plants at the first C of F renewal or earlier. Though powerful, this motor had reliability problems – it was rumoured that the troublesome crankshafts were sourced from eastern Europe – and, by the standards of the time, it was deemed to be fuel thirsty, though it would probably compare favourably with the dipsomaniac beasts of the present day.

Roger Cox

23/05/12 – 09:36

I’m only guessing but, going by the style of the upper deck front windows I’d say they were Northern Coach Builders bodies. It ties in with the operating area, anyway.

Eric Bawden

23/05/12 – 09:37

Coach builder was Northern Coach Builders of locally Newcastle.Yorkshire Woollen had some identical buses.The photograph must have been taken on a hot day judging the way the driver has had to open the windscreen. If only you could do that on say a Wright bodied Volvo.

Philip Carlton

23/05/12 – 09:38

What a wonderful posting! and a perfect compliment to last year’s debate about Pickering utility bodies, because that’s who built these. There were ten of them, FT 6565-74 and they were delivered in 1949. I believe these were Pickering’s only post war double deckers. It has a strong hint of Northern Coachbuilders about it and as NCB probably had a full order book at the time, perhaps Pickering were able to offer a quicker delivery and of course, they had done a lot of work for Northern General previously. I think the result was a very fine looking vehicle!

Chris Barker

Ronnie – the body on this Guy Arab Mark Three is by Northern Coachbuilders. Northern Coachbuilders were based in Newcastle and bodied both buses and trolleybuses for Newcastle Corporation amongst others and ceased trading around 1951.
Northern General also had some Arab Threes with Northern Coachbuilders bodies. One such bus was 1236 BCN 136, which had the typical Guy Arab ‘snout’. The Meadows engine, whilst having a cubic capacity 10.32 litres was fairly compact and didn’t need the extended bonnet required by the physically larger Gardner 6LW. However, the Meadows engine proved unreliable and most were replaced by engines of other makes – usually a Gardner but also AEC and in the case of Midland Red their own K type.

Michael Elliott

23/05/12 – 09:40

According to my 1962 British Bus Fleets book, this bus is a 1949 Guy Arab III with a Pickering body.

Stephen Bloomfield

Thanks everyone I have replaced all but one of the ?s any offers on the seating capacity.

Peter

23/05/12 – 10:29

According to BBF 10 the vehicle seating capacity was 56.

Stephen Bloomfield

———

23/05/12 – 16:48

A correction to my earlier claim, there were apparently thirteen of these bodies, the ten Guy’s and three on re-conditioned AEC Regents of 1937, also for Tynemouth, FT 4220-4222. I wonder if they were ever photographed?

Chris Barker

23/05/12 – 16:49

The information on the flickr link that Roger provided says that these Pickering bodies were designed to resemble NCB bodies. Notice the difference in height between the front upper deck windows and the side windows, and compare that with a real NCB body here //www.flickr.com

Peter Williamson

24/05/12 – 08:16

Chris, three of the Regents you mention – FT 4220/2 were sold to Provincial in 1957 to replace some of the vehicles they lost in a garage fire, you can find pictures of some of them on the Provincial Bus Enthusiasts Website, there is also a picture of one of them with its pre war front entrance Weymann body

Ronnie Hoye

24/05/12 – 08:17

I don’t think there’s a difference in depth, just a deep valance moulding over the windows. BH & D used to do the same, presumably because they both ran in sunny areas! It certainly makes a difference to the appearance.

David Beilby

25/05/12 – 07:38

Is it possible that Pickering used NCB frames for these bodies?

Eric Bawden

26/05/12 – 06:54

Apparently not, Eric. According to the info on the Flickr posting they were all-metal, whereas NCB only built composite bodies.

Peter Williamson

26/05/12 – 20:15

Is it not possible that these bodies were built on Park Royal frames? The profiles are very similar to the standard Park Royal body, also built by Guy themselves, on Arab IIIs.

Roger Cox

02/01/13 – 07:45

As a Geordie can I please clarify this is a Pickering body, not NCB. NCB bodies did not have the slight curve (taper?) to the front upper deck windows.
I used to see these when I was a young lad.

Peter Stobart

02/01/13 – 14:21

Talking about Guys with Meadow engines, LTE’s G436 was a speculative venture in 1949 by Guy, anxious to keep bus production going after the war, with London orders if possible. It employed an updated Guy Arab III chassis, with a Meadows 10.35 litre engine, fluid flywheel and pre-selector gearbox. It had a Guy body (5-bay) built on Park Royal frames that looked loosely like an RT forever allocated to a one-bus backwater route, the usual destiny for LTE’s non-standard buses, it was withdrawn in 1955, then went to Jugoslavia.
See here: www.modelbuszone.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

03/01/13 – 06:24

It is rumoured that G436 was either "gifted" or sold at a very reduced price to the Tram and Trolleybus Department of LTE as a tempter for future orders for tram replacement buses. The chassis was modified from the standard Arab III to allow the fitment of RT class bodywork, though G436 itself had the usual provincial style Park Royal body. A second chassis, designed to accept all the standard Park Royal and Weymann RT8 bodies of the RT class, was offered by Guy, but never delivered. G436 had a full air operated braking system, together with a fluid flywheel and an air operated four speed preselector gearbox. As far as is now known, the 10.35 litre Meadows 6DC630 engine was fully rated at 130 bhp, which would have made the bus decidedly more sprightly than the RT/RTL/RTW family which had engines de-rated to 115 bhp. Quite apart from the uphill struggle against London Transport’s infatuation with standardisation, the dubious reliability of the Meadows unit would have handicapped Guy’s attempt to get a postwar foothold in the London market. Perhaps the GS order was some kind of consolation prize. G436 spent its final two years or so with LTE on the short 121 route between Ponders End and Chingford. A certain 13 year old Guy fan made a special pilgrimage from Croydon to Chingford in the summer of 1955 to see this bus and sample it as a passenger. After waiting patiently at length for its arrival, and observing only RTs on the service, an enquiry put to one of the RT drivers elicited the information that G436 had been withdrawn from service at the end of February!

Roger Cox

19/05/16 – 06:18

Much has been written about the origins of these Pickering double deck bodies for Tynemouth, but this much I know.
I bought a secondhand Britbus model of G436 the London Transport Meadows engined Park Royal bodied Guy. Firstly after dismantling it, I filed away the rain strip over the top of the front upper deck windows. Secondly I replaced the half drop windows with sliders. It is often difficult to remember what the rear of a bus looked like without the aid of photographs. But, based on memory I deepened the rear emergency windows on the top deck at the rear of the bus and placed a vertical dividing strip down the rear staircase/ platform window. Finally I repainted it in Tynemouth livery, added appropriate transfers and Hey Presto, what did I end up with a Pickering bodied Guy.
So I submit that these bodies had Park Royal frames and were panneled and completed by Pickering.

Anon

13/04/18 – 05:47

I agree that this appears to have been built on Park Royal frames, the shortened bays on the trailing edge of the rear axles the clue. Thereafter its all cosmetic work, but the fact these were built on sturdier ground than Pickering’s wartime contributions suggests imported metal frames. NCB were all timber framed bodies and likewise of dubious quality apart from the final sanctions which were of ECW outline.

Keith

19/04/18 – 06:47

I can remember these vehicles operating on this service, although they were soon replaced by more modern vehicles. Indeed it seemed to me that this route (Whitley-Wallsend-Gateshead) often received new vehicles to operate it, displacing earlier vehicles to other routes. It was also noticeable that routes were allocated specific batches of vehicles to operate them. Living in Whitley Bay, other routes that I was familiar with were the 5 (Newcastle-Whitley Bay Cemetery) operated by the ECW rebodied TD5s, 7 (North Shields Ferry-Blyth) operated by NCB bodied AEC Regents, and 8 and 12 (North Shields Ferry-Whitley Bay Bandstand) operated by Weymann bodied AEC Regents.
One other point, the vehicle in the photo is carrying the route number 4, but at some time, it was renumbered 1. I have a timetable from 1956 when it was still numbered 4, but in the timetable for 1961, it has become the 1. Does anyone know when it was renumbered? The present day 1 is a descendant of this route, although in order to serve various housing estates, it follows a much more tortuous route than was the case back then. It was also numbered 301 for a lengthy period.

John Gibson

20/04/18 – 06:45

The renumbering of this route from 4 to 1 took place when the route was extended at the Gateshead end to Lobley Hill, and I think this happened in 1956. I remember that my aunt moved to Cullercoats, and the first time we went there it was service 4 but the next time it was service 1: I think that she moved house in 1956.
The renumbering was necessary because the route became a joint operation with Northern when it was extended to Lobley Hill, and Northern already had a route 4. Tynemouth route 1 (Clousden Hill – Wallsend – Willington Square) became route 4.

Paul Robson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/12/20 – 06:23

A rare photograph of Tynemouth Guy Arab III FT 6573 No 173 in the Fleet with Pickering H56R body leaving The Haymarket, Newcastle for the coast. Its blind has not been reset for the return journey. The date is probably mid 50s when shot and mid morning judging by the long shadow cast on the MCCW, BUT 9641T No.481 corporation trolley being overtaken and about to leave the stop on its journey to Polwarth Drive, Gosforth.

Ray Jackson

04/12/20 – 12:37

The bus would have turned right coming out of the old Haymarket Bus Station, then left round the back of the South African War Memorial onto Northumberland Street.
It’s now a few yards further on, and on Barras Bridge heading towards The Great North Road. It will stay in the outside lane, as just a few hundred yards further on, it will turn right into Jesmond Road, heading towards Jesmond, then the Coast Road.
This was the short lived revised, cream top livery, which was only around for a couple of years, so not every vehicle in the fleet had it. In 1958, the red top version was introduce, and the MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD3/4’s were the first to receive it.

Ronnie Hoye

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co
1945
Guy Arab II 
Northern Counties UH30/26R

I am, basically, a tram and trolleybus enthusiast, and, unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of sampling the delights of the LCBER. By 1955, money was in short supply, and the trams were just about worn away, and the company decided to switch to motorbus operation.
I did sample these, in 1956/7, and remember them with great affection. I think that the history of these buses, which succumbed to the mighty Crosville in 1961, has been largely overlooked, perhaps because of the nature of the tram to bus conversion, which was particularly noxious for a hard-core of true bred tramway enthusiasts!
There were a dozen or so ex Southdown utility Arab 11s (as shot above), with 3 makes of body, supplemented by 2 later East Kent examples. There was also an ex-East Kent TD5 used only for the initial phase of driver training, and 2 ex Newcastle NCB bodied Daimler COG5s of 1939 vintage. One of the latter was converted to open top in 1956, and there were plans to likewise convert some of the Guys. I can vividly remember riding on the Guys, which reminded me at the time, of Bristol K5Gs, probably because of the crunchy gear change, not always well executed, and the growl of the 5LW.
It would be very interesting to hear if other enthusiasts remember this fleet with the same affection as I do, and if there are any other photos out there!
I do have an exact fleet list should interest demand it!

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Whitaker

11/05/12 – 08:09

Looks like Mostyn Street, Llandudno. Can anybody with more detailed knowledge of the area confirm or otherwise?

Stephen Ford

11/05/12 – 09:38

This photo has brought very fond memories of by first visit to Llandudno in 1956. Seeing these Guy Arabs operating as an independent Tramway Company gave me a feeling of David and Goliath as Crosville seemed to be the main operator in the area.
For once I ignored the Crosville buses and rode on the LCBER buses to their depot at Rhos-on-Sea where a few trams still remained in the yard. I have always found bus companies operating with Tramway names fascinating as they reflect a proud heritage. How many other bus companies were operating with Tramway Company names in the fifties? Sadly LCBER was taken over by Crosville in 1961.

Richard Fieldhouse

11/05/12 – 12:00

One company that springs to mind is the Northern subsidiary Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads. A title they kept until they disappeared into the parent company in the seventies.

Chris Hough

12/05/12 – 07:44

I think Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Limited was not renamed Bristol Omnibus Company Limited until the 1950s. Now First Somerset & Avon Limited it must surely be one of the oldest legal entities in the public transport field still operating as it was incorporated on October 1st 1887

Nigel Turner

12/05/12 – 07:46

Great posting and wonderful photo John, thanks very much. It just goes to show that many of the most interesting items on OBP are about lesser known operators, and LCBER are an excellent example of that. They were clearly very cost conscious, buying wartime bodied Guy Arabs; many operators had rebodied such vehicles years earlier, and 11/12 year old ones were hardly in the first flush of youth. It’s also interesting that they bought a Leyland TD5 for driver training when they had no Leylands in service, as is the decision to buy the two Daimlers with, presumably, pre-selector gearboxes, amongst the (very) crash gearbox Guys. And how did passengers react to the replacement of smooth and quiet electric traction with trundling 5LW’s? A final question, John – what was LCBER’s livery? It looks smart in your photo, I must say.

Roy Burke

12/05/12 – 07:49

I can remember Bristol, and Bath Tramways in the 1950s when I was stationed at RAF Yatesbury in Wiltshire.

Jim Hepburn

12/05/12 – 07:51

I think this bus’s registration is GUF 153, which was Southdown’s 453, a Guy Arab II, 5LW. (Ch: FD27379), built Feb 1945. Its Northern Counties body (3737) started as H30/26R, was rebuilt to H28/26R and re-engined as a 6LW in Dec 1950, then re-engined to 5LW again prior to withdrawal and sale in July 1956. It was one to escape being converted to an open-topper, like many of its cousins.
Whether they realised it or not, they bought wisely with a Guy with Northern Counties bodies, who were given dispensation during the war to build metal-framed bodies, which would have given them far longer lives then their ‘green’-wood, wooden-framed cousins. The windows were rather shallow and out-of-proportion, but they were still rather handsome beasts and looked just as nice beheaded!

Chris Hebbron

12/05/12 – 07:53

Sadly, Chris, the Tyneside and Tramroads name was abandoned in 1965 and thereafter the rather more prosaic Tyneside Omnibus Company had to suffice until it became one of the last Northern subsidiaries (along with Gateshead) to be fully absorbed in, I think, 1976.

Alan Hall

12/05/12 – 08:15

Apologies for the wrong registration GUF 351. Later access to a fleet list, and closer perusal of the photo, has shown this bus to be GUF 159.
As Stephen says, it is in Mostyn Street, Llandudno as far as I can tell.
This bus was the second No.3, being purchased in 1957, to replace an identical vehicle, original No.3, GUF 128.
The Northern Counties bodied examples were metal framed, and this would explain the earlier withdrawal of these buses compared to their Weymann and Park Royal sisters. It would have been much easier for former tramway engineers to maintain a composite body! I understand that a bus fleet list for LCBER will shortly be included in the fleet list section

John Whitaker

12/05/12 – 17:15

Didn’t Bath Electric Tramways and Bath Tramways Motor Co survive until c.1972, when absorbed into BOC?

Philip Rushworth

12/05/12 – 17:26

Just to answer Roy`s question about the LCBER bus livery; this was a deep crimson and cream, being the original tram colours from opening in 1907, until the green livery was adopted in the mid 1920s
I presume they did not continue with the green livery after tramway abandonment, in order to differentiate their vehicles from the Tilling green of Crosville.
As Richard says, it was also very unusual for me too, to let Bristols go by, but this was a notable and worthy exception!

John Whitaker

19/05/12 – 15:18

Further to my previous comment, I can now confirm the change of names for the following-
Gateshead & District Tramways Co.Ltd. became Gateshead & District Omnibus Co. Ltd. on July 12th 1950
Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd became Bristol Omnibus Co Ltd on May 16th 1957
Tyneside Tramways & Tramroads Co.Ltd. became Tyneside Omnibus Co.Ltd. on March 4th 1965
and surely last of all –
Bath Tramways Motor Co. Ltd. became Wessex National Ltd. on August 9th 1974

Nigel Turner

21/05/12 – 17:23

Having asked the question, many thanks Nigel for the details of ex Tramway Companies operating buses in England. Another one that I am aware of is the Rothesay Tramway Company that ceased tramway operations on the Isle of Bute in 1936 but was operating bus services on the Isle with the tramway name to at least to 1951. Scottish postings do seem to be absent at moment so perhaps someone with Rothesay details can assist.

Richard Fieldhouse

23/06/12 – 05:57

I’ve only ever visited Llandudno once, and I must have been 6 or younger, as we went by bus from Bolton – moved from there in 1954, when I was 6 – to Liverpool, then by steamer to Llandudno. It was a day trip, and my parents commented frequently about the fact that it was so foggy on the way, we were in time to disembark and join the queue to return. So, I never saw the trams or their replacement buses!

Pete Davies

23/06/12 – 21:23

When I was about five years old (1958ish) I took a steamer ride out into the Irish Sea from Llandudno aboard a vessel called the St Tudno. A few years later it sank. Moving back to the buses, Pete must have had a very long day to go and see some fog. There were no direct bus routes from Bolton to Liverpool until after deregulation (and even then Merseybus’s 510 service was short-lived), so the trip would have involved changing at Wigan (to the 320) or Atherton (to the 39 from "Manchester" – actually Salford).

Incidentally (here comes a bit of shameless self-promotion!) my new book on "Independent Buses in North Wales" will be out in the next few weeks and it includes the history of the L&CBER along with 29 other indies in the region. Just thought I’d let you know.

Neville Mercer

21/10/12 – 08:02

Lovely photograph of No 3 on Mostyn Street. I was captivated by the trams in 1943 and was heartbroken when they finished in 1956. I was 13 at the time and, like another contributor, only rode on the "Red Buses" when visiting the area. I am currently developing the definitive history of the L&CBER and am constantly looking for personal memories, photographs and memorabilia, particularly geographical tickets and timetables. Good photocopies are all that is required – not original documents, as it is the information only that I require. Should anyone be able to help, it would be very much appreciated and they could contact me through this site.

Geoff Price

06/01/14 – 07:45

I remember these buses when I used to go to stay at my Nains in Penrhynside. They were not liked by myself or the locals who did not want the trams to stop running.
Locals referred to them as the "Rock & Roll" buses which summed up the ride they gave.

Trefor Davies

06/01/14 – 09:30

That’s a turnaround, Trefor. My experience and that of many others was that it was the trams which gave you the ‘Rock ‘n Roll’ treatment, especially those with four-wheel trucks. I travelled a lot on trams when a boy (London) and am glad to say that an aunt of mine humoured me by going on them for me instead of the far faster Tube trains, bless her!

Chris Hebbron

06/01/14 – 09:36

In the early 1950s the delightful Hastings trolleybuses – by then operated by Maidstone and District – proudly carried the fleetname "Hastings Tramways Company." As a young enthusiast I found this delightful – and I also loved the description of the majestic Hastings and St.Leonards Promenade on the destination blinds – "FRONT."

Chris Youhill

06/01/14 – 14:16

Re Chris Y’s comment on the Hastings destination "Front" if you go to the outer Hebrides you will find buses in Stornoway bearing the destination "Back" – a village around 6 miles out on the road to North Tolsta.

Stephen Ford

06/01/14 – 16:44

"Front" and "Back"! Now that would make quite a route to rival Lands End to John O’Groats, especially if it were undertaken in a 5LW powered utility Guy Arab (max speed 28mph).

Roger Cox

07/01/14 – 06:59

And, of course, on the return journey southward you would be travelling Back to Front!

Stephen Ford

07/01/14 – 08:14

Reminds me of the WWI newspaper headline: Haigh flies back to front.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/02/14 – 07:24

I used to catch the bus home from this stop when at Mostyn school its out side a the bakers Dale Jones which we nicknamed stale Jones We would try and catch a "red" bus because we discovered we could open the destination board on the top deck and wind it on, As these still had the previous routes on them it was great fun to watch the waiting customers at the next stops hoping to catch a bus to Rhos on Sea as the Glasgow city centre only pulled up, as they say Happy days

JK

Copyright Roger Cox

Bickers of Coddenham
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

In 1969 Bickers bought two Guy GS buses, MXX 356 and 360 which were GS56 and GS60 in the London Transport fleet. Here is a picture of them in 1975. The following year they were both sold into preservation, though I believe that neither has been seen about in the last few years. Unless you know different that is, you know how to get in touch.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

21/12/11 – 20:05

Give me a big engined AEC or Leyland any day but these big hearted babies are full of character and deserve their place among the preservation greats. These two look a little mat paint/MOD and well used. Even more testimony to their initially build quality – but they look even better in LT/Country green, gleaming on a running day.
The modern day equivalent is a Mercedes Vario or IVECO Daily. In the words of one of my choir, who spent his professional life working for Tilling subsidiaries, "I know which ones will last longer."

David Oldfield

22/12/11 – 06:24

I drove the Tillingbourne examples of the GS in the Guildford area, and I found them to be delightfully robust, positive little machines, though the clanky sounding Perkins P6 engine didn’t impress me very much. The GS was another of those buses with a "right to left" wrong way round gearbox, and I have always wondered who made it. Was it a Guy box, or something from another maker?
Also, was it yet another manifestation of London Transport’s flat earth outlook that led it to commission Guy to manufacture a specially designed 26 seat model? Dennis had been producing successful buses of this type for years, and the LGOC had purchased a fleet of around forty Darts in the 1930s. The logical move for LT in the 1950s would surely have been to obtain a P6 powered version of the established Falcon. The GS was (indeed still is – there are lots still around) a really good little bus, but I remain perplexed that it was ever ordered in the first place.

Roger Cox

22/12/11 – 06:25

GS’s were certainly a hybrid ‘special. Based on a modified Guy Vixen chassis, it sported a Perkins P6 indirect-injection, 65 bhp engine, with 4-speed crash gearbox. It was a rare example of London Transport buying an ECW body, which it was supposed to buy in preference to other makes. However, off-hand, I can only think of RFW’s as the other example in post-war years. Even so, LTE put their stamp on it, as it bore a remarkable resemblance to the RF body at the rear.

Chris Hebbron

22/12/11 – 06:26

There are some others from the same batch which survived for a fair time but not in a very good way. See them here www.travellerhomes.co.uk/ 
At least they had long and useful lives and as David says, they are rather attractive and purposeful souls.

Richard Leaman

22/12/11 – 08:25

As Roger says LT always had some rather odd ideas – the prewar rear engined Leyland CRs spring to mind with only twenty seats AND a conductor !! I too have always admired the little GS class, surely one of the most handsome small buses ever.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 07:00

The CR’s were designed for OMO, but, post-war, with the huge increase in passengers, those OMO routes in Central Area were either abandoned/absorbed into other, busier routes or served by full-sized buses, rendering these ‘babies’ surplus. However, they were spread about and used, as a last resort, to replace full-sized vehicles which had failed, hence the two-man crews. Ill-suited to intensive work, and under-developed, they often crumpled under the strain. I made one journey, on just one, in such a situation. It coped!

Chris Hebbron

23/12/11 – 09:37

Thanks for that Chris H – that’s something I never knew despite owning much bookware about LT – you’re never too old to learn as they say.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 12:11

A nice coincidence is that Leyland’s light 6-cyl diesel used in the CR had the same bore and stroke (3.5" x 5.0") as the Perkins P6 used by Guy in the GS. Both engines were indirect injection and shared that light tinkling "threepenny bits" combustion note. The only ride I’ve ever had in a CR was at Cobham (held at Chobham) a few years ago, and the engine sound was remarkably Perkins-like. Another thing I learnt that day: the big-diameter rear hub houses not a double-reduction gear but a universal joint, so the CR evidently didn’t have a beam axle.

Ian Thompson

24/12/11 – 06:36

Douglas Corporation ran some Guy Gs style buses with Mulliner bodywork. They were fitted with large upright destination screens front and rear. This gave rise to their nickname of Wolsey’s camels after the then manager. Douglas also bought what I think are the only Leyland Comets in municipal service.

Chris Hough

24/12/11 – 06:40

Chris Hebbron – re LT buying ECW bodies, there was also SLT 59, (CRL4/RMC4), the first Green Line Routemaster.

Bob Gell

24/12/11 – 06:41

One unusual feature of the CR was a De Dion rear axle, with a universal joint at both ends of the half-shafts. I’ve no idea why it was fitted, maybe to produce a more stable ride for the engine at the rear. Here is a photo and diagram of how it worked (These axles were made from the 1890’s into this century without much change. Sports cars had them, but production cars like the Rover 2000 had it, too). See //www.light-motor-cars.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 09:54

Thx, Bob, for the titbit on SLT 59. ECW must have struggled to meet that order on time! I always thought it looked smart with its framed side lower-deck windows, but had a feeling that the full-width lower rear window looked as if it wasn’t centred properly, or was that my imagination?

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 13:12

There are pictures of SLT 59 on the web including www.londonbuspage.com/ which has this and KGJ 603D which is obligingly pictured from the rear with what also appears to be an off-centre rear window: is this to stiffen the corner by the rear door?
Does anyone know anything about the ECW (presumably) system on the VR which sucked all the cig ends and packets out of the upper deck through a port at the back? Now that’s innovation….

Joe

10/11/12 – 06:51

In the 1980s I owned GS 36 it was a joy to drive once you got used to the gearbox, double de clutch comes to mind, sorry I sold it.

Stuart

04/01/13 – 08:51

On 2/5/10 I took the above picture although I cannot remember where I took it. As I had retired to Cornwall in 2008 and was visiting all the shows I can only assume that it was in Cornwall. I used your site to try and identify the model and any other details available and when I selected the Guy GS model found a photo of 2 buses under the heading of Bickers of Coddenham and comments that the picture was from 1975 and with registration numbers MXX 356 and MXX 360. It further stated that the buses had been sold into preservation but not seen in the last few years. As the photo I took has MXX on its plate unfortunately the numbers are hidden. I just thought that it may possibly be one the buses in a new livery so I forwarded it for any information possible.

Warren Farrer

04/01/13 – 13:03

This bus is in the distinctive livery of West Bromwich Corporation, and you can just make out the fleet number 252. The registration would be MXX 340. It was acquired from London Transport in 1961.

Alan Murray-Rust

11/02/15 – 14:03

This is all new to me. I am enjoying the various photos and comments. On the Home page there are photos of the Guy Specials. Although the original contributions were some 3 years ago, the attached may be of interest showing the only GS painted into Tillingbourne blue seen at Rusper on the service to Horsham on 1. 7. 1972. The driver may well be your contributor Roger Cox. Thanks to the driver for the ride.

Keith Newton

12/02/15 – 06:35

Welcome, Keith and thx for your photo. It certainly looks very odd out of LT colours!

Chris Hebbron

12/02/15 – 06:35

No, it’s not me, Keith. MXX 364, ex GS64, was the only GS painted in the then new blue Tillingbourne livery shown in your picture. It was out stationed for a time at Horsham (on a rotational basis with one of the SUs) for the Horsham-Rusper circular route. Although I did drive the SU4LAs on this service, I didn’t take GS64 in its new livery. This was the last GS bought by Tillingbourne  (in April 1971) and the last to be operated, being withdrawn in October 1972.

Roger Cox

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/02/15 – 07:35

Here is another Tillingbourne GS, MXX 382, ex GS82, seen in Horsham Carfax when ‘On Hire’ to North Downs Rural Transport in 1971. It is in the revised livery initially adopted by Trevor Brown in September 1970 when he took over Tillingbourne Valley from the Trice family who had run the business since 1924. Later, the blue livery shown above in Keith’s picture replaced the maroon, though MXX 382 was never so repainted, being withdrawn in March 1972. North Downs itself, after struggling with low revenues and maintenance issues, finally expired on 17 April 1972, whereupon the Horsham services became part of the Tillingbourne network.

Roger Cox

19/02/15 – 10:34

The history of all the London Transport GS Class can be found at the excellent "Ian’s Bus Stop" website at this link: www.countrybus.org/GS/GSa

Chris Hebbron

24/02/15 – 14:13

David Call is right. Stage was the highest category and the most demanding. Express was in the middle and the lowest category was contract. I worked in the Metropolitan Traffic Area’s PSV licensing team in 1963 and 1964, and I handled very few contract PSV licences.
One oddity about the Metropolitan Traffic Area was that it did not handle licensing of drivers or conductors, which was handled by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police. Another was that London Transport not only trained their own drivers, but tested them as well!

David Wragg

24/02/15 – 16:12

My original PSV was passed in London in 1967. In 1972 I moved back to Manchester and when my licence came up for renewal I had to surrender my ‘N’ badge for a ‘CC’ one. The new one was a bit slow coming so I went along to the office in Manchester to enquire why.
It turned out that the Civil Service Union was on a work-to-rule and they would not issue the new one until they received the 2/6d. deposit on my old one from London. When I protested that I could not work (the law stated that it had to be worn) because they did not trust the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to return my 2/6d the supervisor was called. After some argument, the supervisor’s supervisor was called and nobody could think of a rule that stopped my paying again. They kindly allowed me to do this and promised they would refund me when they received the original deposit. Still waiting… (Maybe I should write to the Prime Minister and Sir Bernard whatsit-Howe about why the south is so much richer than the north!)

John Hodkinson

25/02/15 – 06:02

David Wragg says it was ”an oddity for London Transport to test their own Drivers”
Not so, Designated Examiners were common practice in the larger Companies, and Municipal Undertakings, and still are.
There was a specified number of Drivers who had to be employed, I think 300, to qualify for one, and the Examiner was not to be the same person as the one who undertook the Training.
This was to alleviate the pressure off the Ministry of Transport.
In the past there were no separate Department of Transport Driving Examiners, PSV Tests were carried out by the Area Certifying Officer (The Ministry Man).
He would re-certify a few vehicles in the morning, and then carry out a few PSV Driving Tests in the afternoon, or visa versa. At Oldham Corporation I seem to recall it was a Tuesday.
Also you did not get a pass or fail off him, and no pass certificate. He just said he would make his recommendation to The Traffic Commissioner and you would hear in due course.
You did not know if you had passed until your Licence and Badge arrived.

Stephen Howarth