East Kent Road Car Co Ltd
1954
Dennis Lancet UF
Duple C41C

This photo taken on Margate seafront in about 1966 shows HJG 3 numerically the first of a batch of 30 Dennis Lancet UF’s fitted with Duple Ambassador C41C bodies delivered to East Kent in 1954 these made up the largest fleet of Lancet UF’s in the country. Looking at this photo again recently I thought how the elegant simplicity of both the coachwork and the superb East Kent livery set one another off beautifully, on the Lancet the windscreens were set lower than on the contemporary Royal Tiger’s and Regal IV’s due to the Lancet’s lower driving position which also made the skylights above the screens more upright also the cab windows and the pillar behind the cab was a different shape.
I feel that the Lancet UF deserved more success than it achieved but obviously it did not appeal to those then all powerful figures the Fleet Engineers who didn’t like some aspects of the specification.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

31/10/13 – 07:31

Rather like Leyland in the dark, dark days of British Leyland you feel in your guts that you ought to, that you want to like/support Dennis. Many the reputable operator ran Lances, Lancet(tte)s and, of course, Lolines. Glenton ran the last "batch" of Lancet UFs with Plaxton Panorama bodywork – another class act. Often, specifications were good – just quirky and unproven (not necessarily bad and unreliable). Fodens had this problem. I’m no great lover of the Javelin – I prefer heavyweights – but it was a solid workhorse in the style of Bedford and Ford. I did, however, take a Dennis R420 to the South of France one summer. With its ZF AStronic gearbox (and a bit of imagination!) you could call it a cheap GB Setra. Being very much a Setra man, I can say that the R420 was one of the best/nicest coaches I have ever driven. It never took off because it didn’t have Volvo Assist to back it up if it broke down. [My experience of Volvo Assist is that it wasn’t missing much.] So I can support Roger to the hilt. The R series should have been a success, it wasn’t Dennis’s fault it wasn’t – and I’m sure the same was true of the Lancet UF.

David Oldfield

31/10/13 – 15:52

Newport Corporation ran some Lancet UFs but most were bodied as coaches, weren’t they?

Geoff Kerr

01/11/13 – 08:18

Newport Corporation took 12 Lancet UF in two batches. In his book "Dennis Buses in Camera" Robin Hannay says that the first 4 had bus bodies but makes no comment about the second batch although in the picture it appears that they have bus seating. All bodies were built by D J Davies a local coach operator and Dennis agent.

Paragon

01/11/13 – 08:20

I have always admired these East Kent Lancet UF coaches. East Kent took a total of thirty of these machines, the biggest single order that Dennis received for the Lancet UF. Registered HGF 2 to 32, they all had the stylish Duple Ambassador IV bodywork, the first six being C32C and the remainder C41C. The low driving position of the Lancet UF was incorporated very successfully into the design, and the result was a classic to my eye. East Kent were dedicated Dennis users in the pre and early post WW2 period, and my very first experience as a small boy of the Guildford marque came about in 1947-49 with rides on the Lancet II buses, with their distinctive O4 engines, between Faversham and Herne Bay. Until the advent of the Dart and its derivatives, the vertical engined Lancet was Dennis’s most successful passenger type, and the firm must have hoped that the underfloor engined model would have captured at least some of the market. In fact, the total production of the Lancet UF came to 71, the last being delivered to Glenton Tours in 1961. Several reasons may be offered for this, but reliability was certainly not a factor. East Kent, for example, kept their Lancet UFs for around 17 years. Some of the problems lay with the Dennis design which included features that some bus company engineers viewed with caution. These included the low driving position (the ultimate industry acceptance of which Dennis anticipated by about twenty years) and the high pressure hydraulic braking system that, London Transport’s Routemaster excepted, never became popular. The Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox was an idiosyncratic affair that had sliding mesh (i.e true crash rather than constant mesh) engagement of the four lower gears, fourth being direct drive. To add to the fun, the gearstick operated the "wrong way round", upwards from right to left. Fifth gear was an overdrive with preselective engagement/disengagement using Maybach design principles. To engage fifth, the gear lever was pushed at any time from fourth position to the left and forward, but nothing happened until the accelerator and clutch were released to allow the revs to die. Then, releasing the clutch and applying the throttle would find the overdrive engaged. To disengage fifth, the stick would be moved back into fourth position at any time, and to actuate the system, the clutch had to be dipped and the engine blipped to raise the revs. Releasing the clutch pedal again would find fourth gear engaged. In the front engined Lancet, the proximity of the engine and gearbox to the driver allowed clean gear changes to be made by ear. In the UF, the remote location of the gearbox halfway down the chassis made this rather more difficult. Later models of the Lancet UF had the 8 litre rather than the 7.58 litre version of the O6 engine and a Meadows gearbox. When UF production finally finished, so did the manufacture of the O6, the last engine in the Dennis range to be offered. Thereafter, the firm used proprietary units. In the mid 1950s the BET group concentrated its purchasing upon AEC and Leyland products, and most other manufacturers of entirely acceptable machinery, including Dennis, were excluded from the ‘approved list’. Dennis tried again to enter the underfloor bus/coach market with the Pelican in 1956, which had the Dennis 92 bhp 5.5 litre engine and a conventional Meadows five speed constant mesh gearbox. The prototype made many demonstration tours, but the supremacy of AEC and Leyland in declining market conditions deterred the Guildford company from putting the Pelican into production. Yet again, however, the reliability of this unique machine was unquestionable. It ran for many years, first with Yellow Bus of Guildford, and finally with Chiltern Queens of Woodcote. More about the characteristics of the Lancet UF may be found on this site:- www.dennissociety.org.uk/nl/lancetuf.html

Roger Cox

01/11/13 – 14:02

Paragon – thanks, I meant to say "most others", i.e. other than Newport’s. I know there’s a preserved Brutonian vehicle and Aldershot & District had at least one with a bus body.

Geoff Kerr

01/11/13 – 17:57

As has been stated elsewhere on this site, Dennis Lancet UF KOT 600 was never owned by Aldershot and District. The confusion arises because the vehicle was painted in A&D livery and given the fleet number 187, but it remained the property of the manufacturer. It was operated on hire from Dennis from 1st February to 30 November 1953, after which it was returned to the Guildford factory. It subsequently went to Simmonds of Great Gonerby, near Grantham, and then to Cullings of Norwich who eventually passed it on to Blue Bus of Slough. At some stage in its life its Strachans B41R body was rebuilt with a front entrance. Aldershot and District went over to the AEC Reliance for its single deck requirements.

Roger Cox

03/11/13 – 09:02

"Somerset’s Buses" by Laurie James (Tempus 2004) is the source of much useful information concerning the Lancet UFs belonging to Hutchings and Cornelius of which the Brutonian example mentioned above is one. H&C were Dennis users for many years and in 1957 took 3 UFs YYB 117/8/9.117 was DP40F and the other 2 were B42F. All had full service lives. 118 ended up with Brutonian but the interesting thing is that 119 is shown as passing to a Preservation Group in Guildford in September 1973. Where is it now?

Paragon

10/11/13 – 17:17

I had a close relationship with the East Kent UFs when they were used on contract services at Dover Eastern Docks providing a road link from ships and hovercraft to Dover Priory railway station in the 1969 -1971 period. I can vouch for what Roger Cox says about the potential difficulties posed by the remote gearbox, the long linkages and the unconventional gate. I can remember even experienced drivers stirring the long gear lever to find what they were looking for. In spite of being in their late teens at the end at the time they presented a modern image alongside the new hovercraft, and dare I say it they were more reliable than an SRN4! Just worth noting that the East Kent fleet was HJG 3 – HJG 32, slightly different from the numbers in Roger’s comment.

Mike Harvey

11/11/13 – 15:14

Roger – When I was young, about four times a year, I’d get an A&D Lance from Woking to St. Peter’s Hospital, near Chertsey and would try and sit in the nearside/offside downstairs front seat and observe the driver. It was quite some time before I worked out how that Dennis ‘O’ gearbox worked and the strange ‘U’ movement by the driver, with no change in engine note at that moment. I was quite used to preselective methods with the LTE Daimlers around Morden, but a crash gearbox with pre-selective overdrive; egad; that was quite another thing! That whole area was also interesting in that you would have London Country and A&D buses popping in and out of turnings all over. Interesting times.

Chris Hebbron

14/11/13 – 06:00

Paragon enquires what became of YYB 119 once listed as preserved? A previous owner of now preserved YYB 118 told me that circa 1984 he had located 119 laid up behind a pub in the Guildford area. Photographs show that it was in fairly poor order, blocked up with a missing front wheel and a large pile of scaffolding stacked against one side. Despite enquiries no one could be found who knew anything about it and when he returned at a later date it had gone. And as far as I am aware, it has never been seen since. Attemps to trace members of "The Guildford LU2 Group" have been equally negative.

Nick Webster

15/11/13 – 06:25

Chris, the Lance K3 was a remarkable machine, with its free running 7.58 litre 24 valve O6 engine, giving (unlike the optimistic claims of contemporary Crossley and Daimler engines, both of which had a litre greater capacity) a genuine 100 bhp, and this was coupled to the ‘O’ type gearbox with its preselective overdrive fifth gear. It was probably the fastest double decker of its time. In an age when the legal maximum speed for a psv was 30 mph, it always amused me to read the plate on the internal cab bonnet side of the Aldershot and District Lances and Lancets – "Do not engage fifth gear below 30 mph". In my own experience, sadly only as a passenger, the drivers certainly complied, and these machines spent much of their time in overdrive. To the best of my knowledge, the A&D timetables of the 1960s did not differ greatly in terms of running time from those of the late 1950s. One had to drive a Loline pretty hard to get to Petersfield on time from Guildford or Aldershot, so the old 30mph limit must have been regularly observed in the breach.

Roger Cox

16/11/13 – 11:30

About,1963 I took a return journey from Portsmouth to Milford, swapping from Southdown to A&D at Petersfield.
The Southdown, from memory, was one of the East Lancs PD2/12 registration RUF ###’s, but the A&D was a Loline; interesting, but not a Lance, to my eternal regret Roger, on that challenging route.

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

28/07/18 – 06:29

It’s confession time – I was the "Guildford LU2 Group" After my initial attempt at vehicle preservation (OWB GCV 623) failed with the vehicle being vandalised on a farm in Elstead, I tried again with YYB 119 which I bought directly from H & C and drove home. Sadly, after securing a parking space next to a pub in Witley, I tried to get an MOT and needed to replace the kingpins, something which I was unable to do. Having run out of money and enthusiasm, I am ashamed to say that the bus was abandoned and I suspect that the kindly publican probably sold it for scrap. My next foray into bus ownership was the purchase of VCH 172 from Tillingbourne which I operated as KRC Coaches (Later to become Surreyways).

Hans Retallick

Feather Brothers (Bradford)
1939
Dennis Lancet 2
Plaxton C37F

I took this photograph in 1960 with a rather primitive optical instrument called the Bencini Comet S. It shows a Dennis Lancet 2 of 1939 with a Plaxton C37F body, seeing out its final days employed on contractor work based in a yard beside the main London- Brighton railway line on the southern edge of Coulsdon (south of Croydon). The site is unrecognisable today. This coach began life with Feather Brothers, Bradford (later part of the Wallace Arnold empire) in May 1939, a less than auspicious moment to embark upon a coaching career, and its wartime experiences are unclear. Somewhat later, it entered the fleet of A. Farrow and Sons, Melton Mowbray where it stayed from January 1951 to January 1956, before passing on to Coronation of Stapleford.
The interesting story of Farrow, together with a fleet list, may be found here:- www.farrows-coaches.co.uk
By 1960 this coach had been ignominiously demoted as seen above. The Lancet 2 was offered with two alternative bonnet lengths, the longer one to accommodate the Gardner 5LW, and a much shorter one for the Dennis "Big Four" 97 bhp petrol engine of 6.786 litres, or the 85 bhp O4 diesel of 6.5 litres. The four cylinder Dennis engines were very compact, and the short bonnet allowed the bulkhead to be moved forward so that the greater internal saloon length could accommodate an extra row of seats. Setting aside the Maudslay SF40, which, in theory, could seat up to 40 passengers, though a lower figure was more usual, the short bonnet Lancet probably offered the greatest capacity – up to 39 seats – on a conventional chassis in the late 1930s. One does wonder, however, if the cab was a bit constricted, though the bodywork could be extended to the extreme front, flush with the radiator, as on this Plaxton C37F example, which is clearly built on a short bonnet chassis. The bulkhead has no autovac which was more usual than a lift pump for the fuel delivery to the engine on vehicles of that period. I cannot establish from the photograph whether this coach has a petrol or a diesel engine, though, to be still in use during the 1960s, the O4 diesel option would be very much more likely. If only this splendid machine were still around today.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

10/10/13 – 08:10

Your "optical device" can’t, surely, have been more primitive than my first such instrument, bought for 2s6d in Woolworth’s in 1962. If the camera and viewfinder (such as it was) were pointing the same way, an approximation of the target might appear on the film, but it was usually very blurred. More often than not, it captured something off to one side or the other.

Pete Davies

10/10/13 – 15:30

Most interesting are the metal surrounds for the destination glasses – a shape which was still in use by Plaxtons well after WW2.

Chris Youhill

11/10/13 – 06:59

I had a Bencini, a triumph of appearance over performance, the reasonable quality lens being the best part.
As for the coach, the nearside bodywork being carried halfway over the wing is something I’d not seen before – did Plaxton stop this after the war? Sad it never survived.

Chris Hebbron

11/10/13 – 06:59

Very interesting to see an example of pre-war Plaxton bodywork although this is perhaps not a very flattering angle (no disrespect to Roger) but you could see the makings of an attractive design emerging. Another point of interest is the radiator, I wasn’t aware that Dennis had introduced this style before WW2. You tend to think of pre-war Dennis coaches having the massive radiator with the bar across the front.

Chris Barker

11/10/13 – 08:29

North Western took six Dennis Aces in 1934 with a very neat radiator which was a definitive forerunner of a change to the shape depicted in Roger’s photo.. NW’s 1936 delivery of Lancet IIs had exactly the same radiator as DAK 684.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/10/13 – 08:29

I wonder if the "enclosed pocket" caused by the extension of the bodywork over the front mudguard might have caused a bit of resistance to the flow of wind, therefore affecting the pulling power of the coach ??

Chris Youhill

11/10/13 – 14:16

As Phil indicates, the Lancet II with the slimmer radiator, slightly offset towards the nearside, was introduced at the 1935 Motor Show, where a Dennis bodied coach for a Staffordshire operator, A T Hardwick, was exhibited. I agree with Chris Y about the probable aerodynamic consequences of the extended panel work alongside the bonnet, yet this feature appeared on the products of several coachbuilders of the time.
DAK 684 was always parked within a fenced enclosure alongside the Brighton Road, and this was the best shot I could obtain. I did return several times for a better view, but then one day, sadly, the coach had gone forever.
I am digging out some of my old Comet S photos that, with modern digital software, are now a bit more useable (the Watton picture of an ECOC SC4LK is another with this camera). As Chris H suggests, the Comet looked the part, but its performance was much inferior to the old Brownie 127 that I used before. As a collector of old cameras, I have examples of both today.

Roger Cox

11/10/13 – 14:16

The extension over the front wing was quite common – especially on Plaxtons. It was also very often hinged to facilitate access to the engine.

David Oldfield

11/10/13 – 14:17

A quick trawl around the web would suggest that Dennis changed to the lighter style of rad grill during 1936. I’ve seen photos of Lancet I’s and II’s for this year.
Your right, Chris Y. The ‘pocket’ was hardly in the vogue for streamlining in the mid/late ‘thirties.

Chris Hebbron

11/10/13 – 14:18

What a delight to see this ex Feather Brothers Lancet!
I remember Feather Brothers so well, and their office at the bottom of Great Horton Road, and we used them frequently for day trips, so I could well have ridden on this vehicle. I am trying to remember just when they were absorbed by Wallace Arnold, but if my birth were to have been registered under motor vehicle legislation, then I also would have carried a "DAK" plate!

John Whitaker

11/10/13 – 14:49

1968 springs to mind for some reason John, but I don’t know why.

David Oldfield

11/10/13 – 16:10

Gentlemen, its amazing how time flies – Feather Brothers sold out to Wallace Arnold in March 1955 !! Fifteen vehicles were in the deal as follows:-
Dennis Lancet – 4, AEC Regal IV – 5, Bedford SB – 6.
I was at the Leeds depot of WA, and my first tour was in 1963 to the Isle of Wight from Bradford depot and the coach was 9196 NW in Feather Brothers livery from purchase new by WA. Talk about thrown in at the deep end with only a brief sheet, in the dreadful "Roneo" format of the time, of instructions for the whole week. This farcical document would have been hilarious if it hadn’t been so seriously deficient in timings and directions – I have it still and I shudder even now when I look at it from time to time. I recovered shortly after practically throwing the poor old clients and their baggage on to the last sailing of the day to the Island. The thought of narrowly avoiding, by seconds literally, having to find forty bed and breakfasts at 7.00pm is not something I’d recommend. Then I had to take the empty coach to Lymington (half an inch on the map and many complex miles around the Solent fjords)for cleaning and refuelling before finding B & B for myself and catching the ferry next day to Yarmouth and the Southern Vectis’s superb early model Lodekka right around the coast to Sandown. The vision of a management unable to organise a long convivial evening in an alcohol manufactory springs ever to mind !!

Chris Youhill

06/07/17 – 07:33

Sometime after the WA take over of Feathers, 2 of the Bedford SBs went to Hedley Howarth t/a Howarth Coaches Middlestown, direct or otherwise, they were Yeates Riveria bodies HAK 10 & 30, joining Bedford OB GWY 654 ex R Armitage of Long Lane Flockton, this OB has always been in my memory as GYG66 but not so from new information, successors to Howarth were G Ward Red Lion from Kirkburton then Trevor the importer of the ‘Swede’ recent photo of this from Huddersfield group on :bay, then Barry Todd. Due to the ‘time’ there do not appear to be any photos of Howarth due to the lack of cameras, if any do exist there is a crowd in front & not much bus. Looking for photos for a local history projec

Gem

07/07/17 – 07:41

Further to Chris Y’s information (11/10/13 – 16:10) about the coaches included in the WA takeover of Feather Brothers, a further Dennis Lancet was involved. KKW 999 was a Dennis Lancet UF exhibited at the 1954 Commercial Vehicle Show and was delivered to Feather Brothers, but was not licensed until WA took control. There’s a photo of it here visiting Wembley – https://flic.kr/p/eaxumu 

David Williamson

08/01/19 – 06:41

With regards to Coronation Coaches of Stapleford run by Kenneth Gerry Lee of Harston, who ceased trading in April 1962 when the company was taken over by Miller Bros.
Does any one have a fleet list of the vehicles owned by Coronation Coaches, they were known to also operate a Commer Commando BFB 79 and a Leyland Tiger PS1 with full front Burlingham body HTJ 270.

John Wakefield

Copyright Pete Davies

Reading Corporation
1966
Dennis Loline III
East Lancs H38/30F

Here is a Reading Corporation Dennis Loline III with an East Lancs H38/30F bodywork, and is seen arriving at Wisley Airfield for the "Cobham" Running Day on 4 April, 2004. The Loline, as most know already, was the Bristol Lodekka built under licence by Dennis of Guildford, and the Loline III with forward door makes an interesting comparison with the FLF version of the Lodekka.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

17/05/13 – 07:21

A beautiful picture of a beautiful vehicle. It has been said that arguably the best looking AEC Renowns are the East Lancs versions (particularly Leigh and West Bridgeford). This is the Dennis Loline equivalent – and equally good looking. The Reading livery helps to set it off.

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 09:05

The forward entrance East Lancs bodied Loline III was the nearest the Loline got in looks to the FLF – if the upper deck emergency exit had been changed to a single bay the similarity would have been very close, with the visual advantage of a more balanced side window bay arrangement.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/05/13 – 09:06

Agreed on all points David – I just hope that Mr. Stenning doesn’t see the picture, or the poor soul will think that his life’s work has been in vain.

Chris Youhill

17/05/13 – 10:39

Well hasn’t it all been in vain, Chris. [If you take notice of the number of remarks concerning his modern liveries!]

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 12:40

Thank you, gents, for your kind remarks!

Pete Davies

19/05/13 – 07:20

This vehicle was one of the last batch of eight Loline IIIs bought by Reading in December 1966 and January 1967. The first eight Lolines for Reading came in September 1962, and had rear axles and four speed gearboxes by Dennis. These were followed by ten more in July-September 1964, but these had Bristol rear axles and five speed gearboxes with the overdrive ratio blanked off, which limited top speed to a shade above 30 mph. The last eight, of which 76 above is a representative, were similarly engineered. Quite why Reading specified the Bristol transmission components, especially the five speed boxes which the Corporation then blanked off, is puzzling. At this time Aldershot and District were accepting the delivery of Lolines equipped with wholly Dennis transmissions, so the Reading choice of Bristol componentry must have been made on the grounds of cost. The point has been made before on this site that the Loline, and particularly the Mark III, was rather more than "a licence built Lodekka". Dennis made several changes to the design, and all Lolines from the Mark I had a full air braking system, unlike the Bristol which stuck with air/hydraulic to the end. As one who has driven both Lolines and Lodekkas, I think that the Dennis was the nicer of the two types. Both Ian Thompson and Alan Murray-Rust who have first hand knowledge of these Reading Lolines in service have made insightful comments under the entry for North Western – Dennis Loline III – RDB 892.

Roger Cox

19/05/13 – 07:23

The Dennis Loline always lived in the shadow of the Bristol FLF in terms of sales numbers largely due to the radically different purchasing policies of the vehicles’ respective client base. Whereas the BTC companies, which were the only purchasers of the Lodekka allowed by legislation, standardised on a low-height design whether it was actually needed or not, the BET Group companies and municipalities only generally bought such vehicles where low bridges dictated a definite requirement. In those days before disabled access legislation no-one ever seemed to consider a major advantage of the Loline and indeed the other low-height designs of providing a low-height single step entrance. Had such legislation been in place in those days then the Loline could have had a very different history.
I agree that this is a superb picture of a fine vehicle in a classic municipal livery. It still looks good nearly 50 years on but that is the mark of pure quality.

Philip Halstead

20/05/13 – 09:05

Just realised—that’s me at the tiller and wife and daughter up aloft! From about 1955 onwards, as a new model popped up every few years and then disappeared from the market, you heard people predicting the final demise of Dennis as a busbuilder, yet here they are with highly successful products in 2013. Admittedly much changed, but the name lives on!
I’ve also got a very soft spot for East Lancs bodywork, so that Loline has it all.
Pity that one of the ’62 batch didn’t survive, but those then very saleable Gardner engines ensured that withdrawn 6LX-powered buses didn’t just moulder away as chicken sheds—to be discovered decades later by delighted enthusiasts—but got cut up for scrap.
Fine picture, Pete. Thanks.

Ian Thompson

20/05/13 – 16:54

Ian,
If you’d like a copy for posterity, the family archives, or whatever, I’m quite happy for Peter to forward it to you.

Pete Davies

22/05/13 – 09:41

Thanks for the very kind offer, Pete, which I’d be delighted to take up.

Ian Thompson