Leeds City Transport (West Yorkshire PTE)
1964
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Roe H41/29F

In June 1978 West Yorkshire PTE transferred five Fleetlines 101 – 105 from Leeds to Calderdale. 101 was a 1964 Commercial Vehicle Motor Show exhibit which was unique amongst the batch with a single piece curved windscreen and twin headlamps. It is shown here at Skircoat Moor in Halifax shortly before entering service there. One or two points to note, a relatively low seating capacity of 70 when 77 was more normal for this size and layout; note apparently no opening windows in the lower deck (can’t remember this). I do remember the heavy steering and abysmal demisters – this could also affect many other early Fleetlines. The transfer was in the interests of standardisation but this batch had the original ‘heavyweight’ chassis whereas the Halifax buses had the later simplified rear sub frame hence different rear engine mountings – another problem area in early Fleetlines.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

14/01/16 – 16:30

The various early attempts made to ‘prettify’ the boxy shape of the Orion inspired body designs on the first generation Fleetlines and Atlanteans never seemed to come off. Here on this attempt by Roe the lower front panel and curved windscreen seem totally out of context to the remainder which is totally angular. Of the early rear-engined body designs only the Glasgow Alexander version seemed to be designed as a whole and didn’t look like a botch-up. The Bolton East Lancs Atlanteans were pretty good too where the body design seemed to be geared to suit the very attractive livery. It will certainly not be remembered as a high point in British bus bodywork design.

Philip Halstead

14/01/16 – 17:50

I remember 101 well, Ian. My work records show me as having driven it on three occasions at Halifax during 1979. The first was on the 5th January when my conductor Dave Maude and I had it for the first half of a split duty. It is recorded as having been booked off for "No Heaters, No Demisters, Heavy Steering and Slipping Flywheel".
I well remember this occasion as we had struggled to operate a trip to Sowerby with a full standing load of school children for Ryburn Valley High School who unfortunately all insisted on breathing throughout the journey, misting then frosting up our windscreen, Dave having to constantly reach over with bits of paper towel in a vain attempt to provide visibility ahead. Then on the next trip around the 517 Queens Road Circular it became so cold inside that the windscreen froze over on both sides and any attempts to scrape off the ice were thwarted by it immediately freezing over again. We had to finally stop and abandon any hope of continuing the journey for quite a while until I think eventually we were causing such an obstruction that a sympathetic motorist lent us the remains of his de-icer spray and we were just about able to find our way back to Garage in a series of starts and stops.
We also had four more of the batch (102-105), but these had the more conventional flat fronts. They too – like all early Fleetlines – had very heavy steering, but the bodies seemed to be very solid and rattle-free in comparison with the ex-Halifax Northern Counties-bodied Fleetlines, which I thoroughly disliked.

John Stringer

15/01/16 – 06:28

Reading the comments above, I am surprised that no one thought of specifying heated windscreens. I seem to recall them on Hants & Dorset Bristol MWs in the early sixties, which certainly did not have to cope with the more severe weather found in Yorkshire.

David Wragg

15/01/16 – 06:30

101 was the Roe exhibit at the 1964 Earls Court show. Originally finished in traditional Leeds livery plus gold lining out. It was originally fitted with forced ventilation on both decks but following complaints from the public opening windows were fitted in the upper deck.
Like many of LCTs rear engined fleet 101 wore at least three liveries The original the later one man reversed livery and the Metro livery seen here.

On the subject of seating capacity Leeds had no thirty footers with more than 70 seats the largest 33ft deckers only seated 78 The first 30ft types with more than 70 seats were ordered and delivered to the PTE.

Chris Hough

15/01/16 – 14:44

It is not strictly true to say that the first 30ft deckers delivered to Leeds with more than 70 seats were ordered by the P.T.E.
Leylands 221-291, 5221-5291 NW, Daimlers 502-531, 7502-7531 UA and A.E.C.s 910-923, 3910-3923 UB delivered between 1958 and 1960 seated H39/32R when they entered service.
They were altered to H38/32R between August and October 1960 following a National Agreement on standing capacity which meant that buses with more than 70 seats were restricted to a maximum of 5 standing passengers whilst those with not more than 70 could carry 8 standing passengers.

John Kaye

15/01/16 – 17:06

David, the earliest buses I came across with heated windscreens were the final (1969) batch of Plaxton/Roadliners at PMT where we certainly had problems with heaters and demisters (tell me an undertaking that didn’t). You can’t believe the difficulties in getting hot water to flow round 60 feet of pipework.

Ian Wild

16/01/16 – 06:07

Ian. Thought on Roadliners screens were prone to jumping out which only makes demisters the preferred option

Roger Burdett

16/01/16 – 06:12

In that case, Ian, I must have made a mistake. Certainly the Marshall-bodied AEC Reliances of Aldershot & District had such screens around that time, but as regards the Hants & Dorset MWs, put that down to old age!
I can imagine the difficulties in getting heat around vehicles as they grew longer and engines moved from end to the other. More a case of needing a plumber than a mechanic.

David Wragg

16/01/16 – 06:12

Roe never seemed to quite get the "hang of" being able (or could be bothered?) to match-up the top and side profiles of curved windscreens with adjacent body-work, whether single or double-beck – the impression, to me, is of something just cut into bodywork designed for something else. I hope the near-side windscreen wiper was re-fitted before it entered service. And, John, a double-deck on the 517/8 – that was a bit optimistic as regards loadings wasn’t it? with a conductor you must have outnumbered the passenger.

Philip Rushworth

17/01/16 – 06:33

Yes Philip, if I remember rightly there were occasions when we carried nobody at all for the whole round trip, and if not then there were never more than two or three. The service by then was interworked with other routes and this particular AM trip just happened to slot in nicely to a crew operated double-deck working.
Commencing on 9th November,1925 this fairly short circular route served a densely populated area and in its heyday(as the 25 Inner Circle – same number both ways)had been operated by double deckers on a 20 minute (three peaks)or 30 minute (off-peak) frequency, and running throughout the evening. Renumbered 7 (clockwise) or 8 (anti-clocwise) on 24th October 1955 the timetable remained pretty much the same throughout the 1950’s and 60’s. On 29th September 1968 it was combined with the Beechwood Road route becoming cross-town routes 17/18) and converted to OMO single deck operation. The evening service was withdrawn on 27th May 1970. From 20th November 1972 the Beechwood Road section was incorporated into the 3 Hungerhill Estate service, so the 17/18 now reverted to just a Queens Road circular again. On 4th December 1972 it was diverted to also serve Richmond Road, by which time it ran hourly each way. Renumbered 517/518 by WYPTE it was reduced to just four trips per weekday from 12th January 1981, and was withdrawn altogether from 26th October 1986 when the newly created Yorkshire Rider diverted alternate Wainstalls journeys via Queens Road as route 524.

John Stringer

17/01/16 – 06:34

Notably the first C H Roe customer to ask for an Alexander type double curvature windscreen was the then General Manger at Great Yarmouth.
By the time this bus was transferred to Halifax the same man was Engineering Director of the PTE and prior to that he had been General Manager of Halifax and Todmorden.

This shot shows how Roe didn’t put a taper in the front end, unlike Alexander who did: www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/

Stephen Allcroft

17/01/16 – 12:22

That would be the late Geoffrey Hilditch then. A Bus Engineer through and through, the likes of which the Bus Industry will never see again.

Stephen Howarth

17/01/16 – 17:12

Lincoln also bought a batch of Atlanteans with this style of bodywork.

Chris Hough

28/09/20 – 05:33

Reading through all the comments its clear there are some very serious and knowledgeable people that know which brake pads go on which buses.
I am an enthusiast in my own way. I used to be a conductor for Leeds City Transport from 1967 to 1969. Mainly rear loaders (layman’s term) but during that time I remember OMO (one man operated) buses arriving which I was told had been on trial in Leicester I think. At the time these buses were absolute luxury and I remember going to various depots looking for overtime and being thrilled on the front loaders and being a conductor on them. Equally brilliant were the single decker’s which did the inner ring road route. I’m now approaching 70 and can tell anyone and everyone that even after spending 22 years in the Royal Navy and seeing most of the world, being a bus conductor was the proudest job I ever had.

Mike Booth

Aberdeen Corporation
1965
Daimler CVG6
Alexander H37/29R

CRG 325C is a Daimler CVG6 with Alexander H66R bodywork. She entered service with Aberdeen in March 1965. This was one of only three or four Councils in Scotland still with its own Transport Department at Local Government Reorganisation in 1975 [a year later than in England] the undertaking was renamed Grampian Regional Transport, a precursor of First. We see her at Duxford on 18 September 2005.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

05/10/15 – 06:21

"Trafficators" on the mirrors? -about 40 years ahead of its time.
What’s the metal "pad" on the mudguard for? Not seen that before- and the grilles under the canopy are presumably heating…. and a ventilator in that window, too.
All together though, a very handsome bus: the tin front- perhaps plastic front- Daimler CV’s were the best looking half cabs of all (discuss).

Joe

05/10/15 – 06:22

Makes you wonder how they managed to fit 66 seats into a 27′ long decker. The Sheffield standard for buses of this length was 59 and I don’t recall the seat spacing being all that generous.

Ian Wild

05/10/15 – 09:51

I did wonder if, perhaps, the vehicle should be listed as a 30 footer, but a number of other places managed to fit sixty-odd seats in that length, cramped as it might have been. Did she start as a 58 or 59 seater and get the capacity increased for normal duties, was she for school services only in later years, or is there some other reason? Are there any readers out here who can tell us for sure?""

Pete Davies

06/10/15 – 06:31

Samuel Ledgard had several 27 footers with similar large capacities and, as far as I recall from conducting/travelling, no problem with legroom
The vehicles were :-
1949 – 1954 Regent V/Roe H37/28R
XUG 141 Daimler CVG6/Burlingham H36/28R
SDU 711 Daimler CVG6/Willowbrook LoLite H37/29RD.
The quite appreciable difference in the fairly narrow "window" of 26/27 feet is fascinating and quite remarkable.

Chris Youhill

06/10/15 – 06:32

Simple explanation for the "trafficators" on the mirrors. They are not trafficators but luminous yellow blobs as fitted to the back of the mirrors, a forerunner of the reflective yellow mirrors fitted to First vehicles. I believe that some other operators put aluminium plates on the near side wings, from memory Sheffield Regent V’s had them fitted but they did not cover the same area as those fitted to 325,and to all other Aberdeen tin front buses. Dundee buses also had fitting similar to those fitted in Aberdeen.
I presume it enabled staff to stand on the wings without scratching or breaking them.
325 was always a 66 seat bus and is only 27 ft. long. Aberdeen fitted five rearward facing seats along the front bulkhead

Further note, the luminous blobs have now been removed. At the time the picture was taken it was still owned by First, hence the luminous blobs. It is now owned by the Aberdeen and District Bus Preservation Group and is kept at the premises in Alford, Aberdeenshire.

Stephen Bloomfield

06/10/15 – 06:34

Halifax Corporation’s last five CVG6/Roe’s of 1956 had 65 seats (H37/28R) and were 27 footers. The lower deck comprised five pairs of double seats facing forwards and two sideways facing seats for four (a bit optimistic)over the rear wheelarches. The upper deck had eight pairs of forward facing seats, a double seat on the nearside opposite the top of the stairs (which were of course of the Roe straight variety) and a three seater seat at the rear, set back slightly behind the top of the stairs.
The Aberdeen example shown could have managed 66 seats using the same arrangement but with the first row of downstairs seats replaced by a five seater rearward facing seat against the front bulkhead.

John Stringer

06/10/15 – 06:34

The odd number of seats downstairs suggests that they had a reversed 5-some across the front bulkhead. Combined with inadequate leg room to the first forward facing seats (interlocking knees!) would give a "good" seating capacity there. We should not forget that even among the Scots, Aberdonians have a reputation to maintain! (An Aberdeen breakfast is said to comprise a slice of toast – no marmalade!)

Stephen Ford

06/10/15 – 06:35

65 seats on a 27-ft rear entrance double decker was fairly common. The extra seat to give 29 downstairs was usually achieved by having a rear facing five seat bench across the front bulkhead, Lodekka style. I am not personally familiar with these buses but would assume that was the layout.

Philip Halstead

06/10/15 – 07:06

The London Routemaster had 64 satisfactorily spaced seats within an overall length of 27 ft 8 ins, so I suppose the quoted figure of 66 in the Aberdeen Daimler’s Alexander body was possible, even if not entirely comfortable. On the subject of tin/plastic fronts, I thought most of them were pretty dire, and the AEC variety, often quoted by many enthusiasts as their favourite, was garish in the extreme to my eye. It was just an over inflated caricature of the contemporary Rover car front end. My own preference from the mediocre line up was the Johannesburg front on the Guy Arab, but this wasn’t offered for very long before the old Birmingham style became standard again.

Roger Cox

06/10/15 – 07:06

I would hazard a guess that the metal plate on the nearside mudguard was a canny Scottish idea to reduce damage to the paintwork by Fitters in dirty overalls whilst working on the engine (or night staff leaning over to check/top up the engine oil level). Seems a logical idea, did any other Operators fit these plates?

Ian Wild

06/10/15 – 07:07

With bodies by Park Royal and Willowbrook on a Guy Arab IV or Leyland PD2/12 chassis, the 1956/7 intake of D/D’s for the NGT group were all 63 seats, but 66 would seem a bit cosy, or should that be cramped?

Ronnie Hoye

06/10/15 – 07:07

Manchester Corporation and others had 65 seat 27 foot double-deckers. If the downstairs front seats had been turned to face backwards as a five seat bench (as on Bristol Lodekkas) they would have seated 66.

Don McKeown

06/10/15 – 09:39

Interesting information on the variations in these apparently high capacities. Of the eight Ledgard vehicles I mentioned only the Willowbrook "LoLite" body had the rearward facing seat for five behind the driver.

Chris Youhill

07/10/15 – 06:20

Chris-do tell us more about "LoLite" bodies? I tried it in Google and got a page of searches based on Lolita. At first glance, the word looks like one for a vandal-proofed body suitable for the more difficult-to-conduct routes.

Joe

07/10/15 – 06:22

Reading about these "large" capacity buses has me wondering about the "moderns"(sorry about that) that I am seeing around Lancashire.
A company called Tyrer has a 3axle DD marked on the back as a 102 seater and their company website has a picture of a similarly 3axle 100 seat executive coach.
Does anybody know what they might be.

John Lomas

07/10/15 – 15:54

Joe – the one that Ledgard had (SDU 711, later West Yorkshire after takeover, was the former Daimler demonstrator. The low height was, as far as I remember, achieved very successfully by attaching the body direct to the top of the chassis members. It was a very good looking bus, looking "comfortable" with itself, and was extremely strongly built with substantial upper saloon corner pillars.

John – the giant 100 seats plus buses that you mention sound very like some re-imported from China, possibly Dennis Dominators or Ailsa Volvos – open to correction there.

Chris Youhill

08/10/15 – 07:22

One of the views on the firm’s website shows the cab area, with something like the Volvo logo on the steering wheel.

Pete Davies

08/10/15 – 07:23

The 100+ three-axle vehicles are probably from Hong Kong where this type has been common for several years. The high seating capacity is mainly achieved by the use of three and two seating across the bus. With the population of Hong Kong being generally smaller in build than us Europeans this works over there. Think it would be a bit cramped with British bus loads though.

Philip Halstead

09/10/15 – 17:17

With a little help from Pete, these are apparently new Volvo B9TL tri-axle deckers, bodied by East Lancs. Quite a good-looking bus, but I much prefer the look of the Southdown East Lancs bodied Royal Tigers and PD2/12’s found in the 50’s and 60’s when I was a wee lad growing up in Brighton.

Anon

28/10/15 – 13:27

Growing up in Aberdeen in the 60’s I can confirm that Grampian 325 had three seats at the rear of the top deck and a rear facing 5 seat bench behind the lower deck bulkhead. Also 325 was the last open platform bus delivered in Scotland.

Danny Stephen

29/10/15 – 06:25

I notice that CRG 325C has the wider form of the so-called "Manchester front". We’ve been discussing this subject over on the sct61 site. The conclusion so far is that the standard CVG6 had a chassis frame that tapered towards the front and used a 7’6" front axle. When a change had to be made to the chassis frame design for any reason, a straight frame was used with an 8′ axle and the wider cowl. Examples explained this way are for 30-foot chassis, manual gearboxes and forward entrances, and also for the final batch for Northampton which was simply using up parts.
That seems to make these Aberdeen examples the last unexplained anomaly, unless anyone has any ideas.

Peter Williamson

North Western Road Car Co
1965
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H44/31F

DDB 174C is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with Alexander H75F bodywork. She was new to North Western in 1965. The company was split in NBC days and, so far as I am aware, she became part of the SELNEC fleet, passing to GMPTE when the ‘new’ county expanded to include Wigan. She became part of the GMPTE museum fleet and was one of two vehicles from that collection (the other was a Leigh Renown) which took part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary event, where we see her on Itchen Bridge. The date is 6 May 1979.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/09/15 – 07:08

Pete Davies is correct in saying that DDB 174C became part of the SELNEC PTE fleet.
The process though was not that straight forward.
I am sure a lot of contributors to this site will know this, but I think it needs retelling.
In November 1971, a new company, wholly owned by North Western, was formed in readiness for the impending split up of the Company. The new Company was the ‘North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Limited’.
On the 1st January 1972 this new company took over from North Western the stage carriage services within the SELNEC PTE area, together with Garages at Altrincham, Glossop, Oldham, Stockport, and Urmston (Wilmslow garage had closed on 19th December 1971. On the same date the services in the Biddulph, Macclesfield, and Norwich areas together with the vehicles and garages, were transferred to Crosville Motor Services Ltd.
On 4th March 1972 the properties at Buxton, Matlock, and Castleton, again with the vehicles and services, passed to the Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd.
On the same day the North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Ltd., passed from North Western to SELNEC PTE control, and was renamed the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Limited.

Stephen Howarth

30/09/15 – 06:07

Thanks for that, Stephen. As you say, not at all straightforward!

Pete Davies

30/09/15 – 06:07

These Fleetlines were very cramped internally. There was very little leg room between the seats. Later when I worked at Rochdale Depot, we had four of these Fleetlines. As a conductor I still found them a bit cramped internally, even though they were the same size as other buses. The gangway was narrow, and the ceilings were low – they were the only low height buses I conducted. Later as a driver, they were very nice to drive, although like all Fleetlines in those pre-power steering days, the steering became very heavy when the bus was full. They would have benefitted from a footrest for the driver’s left foot. On one or two occasions I picked up bricks to use as a footrest.

Don McKeown

30/09/15 – 06:08

If anyone wants to see DDB 174C Close up she has been on static display At Boyle Street for Sometime now.
As if any of us who follow this site would need an excuse to visit.

Cyril Aston

01/10/15 – 06:22

The lack of opening windows is notable – I seem to recall that North Western’s second batch of Renowns was similar. Can anyone recall how the forced ventilation coped with the cigarette fug – or the heat on a rare North West sunny day? (I suppose the lack of sliding vents was one less place to let the rain in!!) As an afterthought, Bus Manufacturers still can’t produce a reliable heating/ventilation system in 2015

Ian Wild

01/10/15 – 17:30

With reference to this posting, I attach a view of DDB174C on Southampton Common the following morning, in company with the Leigh Renown (PTC 114C) and the Merseyside (ex Southport) PD2 open topper, CWM 154C. What a wonderful variety of chassis and body styles our operators had back then!

Pete Davies

02/10/15 – 05:50

Not to mention a wonderful variety of fine liveries Pete.

Brendan Smith

02/10/15 – 05:50

Indeed, Ian, especially in respect of the windscreen area!

Pete Davies

03/10/15 – 12:34

I don’t remember Crosville taking over stock from Norwich. Wasn’t it Northwich?

Woody

04/10/15 – 07:06

Thanks for correcting my typo Woody.
I blame the pre-emptive text on my Kindle.

Stephen Howarth

04/10/15 – 11:49

Talking of Wilmslow depot (29/09/15, above), didn’t it become North Western’s HQ for a time? If I’m right in this, could someone say when, relative to the other events mentioned?

David Call

05/10/15 – 06:18

David, I think you are right, but I’m not sure on dates. I seem to remember a day out from a family visit to my grandmother in Bolton in April 1973, when I went to Blackpool on a North Western vehicle, and that had the Wilmslow address.

Pete Davies

05/10/15 – 06:19

David Call is correct in that Church Street Wilmslow became the Registered office of North Western in January 1972.
The slimmed down Company was left as an Express service operator with 84 coaches, a garage at Hulme Hall Road in Manchester and a Travel Office at 32 Merseyway, Stockport.
Wilmslow was also George Brook’s office as Regional Director of NBC.
The garage was used for storing withdrawn vehicles for a time after it ceased being an operational garage.
I do not (as yet) have a date when it finally shut. It was sold for redevelopment.

Stephen Howarth

14/05/16 – 06:41

It should also be noted that from 1 January to 3 March 1972 inclusive North Western vehicles operating on local services carried "On Hire to North Western" labels whilst all the legal formalities were carried out.

John Dixon

14/05/16 – 08:48

John, that reminds me of the time when the green buses in north Devon carried labels saying, "This is a Red Bus".

Roger Cox

15/05/16 – 06:55

John & Roger,
I once attended a seminar at Aston University where Dr Caroline Cahm (did I spell the surname properly?) was one of the speakers. She related the odd situation in Portsmouth on the first day of "Portsmouth Transit", when a lady with a Southdown pass could not understand why a driver in Southdown uniform would not let her use the pass on a bus in Southdown colours. Politics and politicians – who’d have them?

Pete Davies

01/08/19 – 09:05

Still grinds every time I see 174 with a fleet number below the windscreen. North Western NEVER displayed the fleet number on this batch this way.

The reference to Crossville takeover above should no doubt read Northwich not Norwich!

Bob Bracegirdle

03/06/21 – 06:26

I remember riding on Daimler Fleetline buses as a child in Partington.They ran on the 222 service. Later changed to 252 I believe. There was an old arched railway bridge just as you came into Partington in which these buses had to steer into the middle of the road to clear the bridge. I can’t quite remember the other bus models that ran services in Partington to Sale Stretford, Urmston and Manchester City centre.

Terence Burgess