Copyright both shots Ken Jones

Exeter Corporation
1950
Daimler CVD6
Weymann B35F

This Exeter City Daimler half cab is more than 60 years old, so even older than me, and is owned by John Handford and based near Solihull in the West Midlands. I’m fortunate to be able to navigate for John on this bus and he has taken it to the Kingsbridge 7ft 6in running day, events in Exeter and the trans Pennine run to name but a few. It has a genuine Exeter City destination blind and letters so in 2009 we took the bus to Exeter and met up with a former Exeter City conductor who worked on such buses and knew all the routes and stops.
Here are two of the pictures I took during the tour around the villages near Exeter. The first on the way back from Upton Pyne at the junction drivers would stop at if passengers wanted to get on or off. The second is crossing the narrow bridge near the village of Bramford Speke.
Visibility for navigating is not ideal, and communicating with John over the engine noise, it has an original Daimler engine, can be limited to reaching out to touch his left or right shoulder. A sister vehicle is preserved at Winkleigh and they were together for the Exeter Nocturnal event in 2011.
It’s a long trip from the West Midlands to Devon – some 6 hours – an endurance test for John as the driver but also for me as the passenger.
Nice vehicle though and full of character, you can sense all the ladies of the villages talking to each other about the latest news whilst they were travelling to and from the City with their groceries.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

06/05/12 – 16:59

Thank you Ken… this has to be one of the best bus photographs that I’ve seen, and it evokes happy memories of times long past, not only working as a rural bus driver, but of a time when the pace of ordinary life was more moderate…

Norman Long

07/05/12 – 09:23

I agree completely Norman – at Samuel Ledgard’s we had four Exeter Corporation Daimler CVD6/Brush double deckers which had their own very special "atmosphere."
JFJ 50/51/52/55 were superbly appointed dignified vehicles full of real "quality" and even sported fascinating offside rear corner chrome bumpers which gave a lovely "pre 1948" touch. Ledgard policy was to equip all second hand purchases with powerful "KL" box type heaters – two under the lower saloon seats and one under the front nearside seat upstairs. As is well known, the large Daimler engines tended to run very hot, and I can honestly say that even in the cruellest of Winter days I’ve known passengers to plead for the heaters to be turned down or off, so effective were they. What happy days those were – and I’m saying this without a pair of rose tinted glasses anywhere to be seen.

Chris Youhill

07/05/12 – 19:16

Next Saturday [14th May] there is an event in Coventry celebrating 100 years of CCT. Some 30 vintage buses will be at former Sandy Lane depot, where the reserve transport museum collection will be open. Some of these buses including JFJ 873 will be operating a shuttle service to the Transport Museum. There will also be a cavalcade of the buses including JFJ 873 at around 16.00

Ken

08/05/12 – 07:20

So, there’s an opportunity for someone in the Coventry area to bag a recording of a CVD6 for the Old Bus Sounds page – any takers?

Stephen Ford

08/05/12 – 07:26

Ken…I think you may have intended to say next Saturday May 12th. Just in case anybody gets mixed up and misses your day!

Richard Leaman

08/05/12 – 10:47

Ken Jones might be interested in the attached pictures of Exeter’s EFJ 666, Leyland Tiger TS8 Cravens B32R. I took the photos at the Gloucester Steam Fair, South Cerney in 2011. This was new in 1938, no less, and was the oldest bus present on the day. It looked and sounded wonderful despite its years

Les Dickinson

08/05/12 – 12:10

Exeter 66 had a role in the film ‘Remains of the Day’ with some very evocative night shots as Emma Thompson boards the bus.

Chris Hough

09/05/12 – 08:04

Yes I meant Saturday May 12th – thanks for pointing out the error

Ken

09/05/12 – 08:05

Did the rear offside seats on any of these single-deckers extend to the very back of the bus, possible because the platform would be split into two steps. The earliest of LGOC/London Transport’s T’s did, until most, but not all, were modified to front entrance. One, T31, is preserved in original condition and, as a rear passenger, I would have felt very insecure, I feel, when going around a right-hand bend!

Chris Hebbron

05/09/12 – 08:42

Thanks for the wonderful old photo’s. I drove these buses also the Guys & the Leyland PD2’s from 1963 to when Exeter City Corporation merged with Devon General, best years of my life. Great to see these old friends being preserved so well. My uniform was donated to the Winkiegh Museum.

Tony Comley

11/09/12 – 05:30

By the time that the last edition of the West of England BBF came out around 1966, the existence of half-a-dozen half-cabs as the only single-deckers in the fleet of Exeter City Transport was already of sufficient curiosity to be remarked upon.
For several years during the ‘nineties, sister vehicle JFJ 875 (Exeter 175) was in the care of Carmel Coaches for operation on Dartmoor Rover summer Sunday service 174 between Okehampton and Moretonhampstead, seen at the latter on a rather damp 3rd August 1997. Unfortunately 175’s body wasn’t entirely Dartmoor-weatherproof by this time and a game of musical busseats usually took place when the rain started.

Michael Wadman

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

21/10/17 – 10:40

In reply to some 5 year old messages! When the Dartmoor Sunday service 174 started, for the first few years the vehicle and the crew were provided by WETC (i.e. Colin Shears). I travelled one Sunday when the bus was driven by Paul Tucker and the conductor was Colin’s son Dan. Something which just showed how things which one generation takes for granted is completely foreign to the next; Dan was born around 1974 and it was apparent that, growing up in Bideford, he had never set eyes on a bus conductor. When the bus came to a stop, Dan would stand at the top of the steps and collect the fares as the passengers boarded – just like an omo bus driver which is what he would have been familiar with. Anyone who went on the bus for a nostalgic trip where the conductor came round and collected the fares after you had sat down must have been a bit disappointed.
In reply to Chris Hebron’s question, the Exeter Leyland s/d’s of the 1930’s had open platforms at the rear. The whole layout is basically exactly as a normal double decker except that the offside of the platform on 66 and its sisters where the stairs would usually be, was occupied by some shelves for parcels. So far as I know, the JFJ Daimler s/ds were always front entrance.

Peter Cook

23/10/17 – 06:07

Thx, Peter.

Chris Hebbron

Copyright Roger Cox

Eastbourne Corporation
1967
Daimler Roadliner SRC6
East Lancs B45D

Here is a shot of the Eastbourne Roadliner, that Diesel Dave referred to under the Halifax Corporation – Daimler Roadliner on the 4th of January heading. Cummins earned such a bad reputation for its V6 engine (and the corresponding V8) that it is a wonder that it survived as a company. For years, Cummins used its own fuel injection system in which the pump pressurised the fuel lines but the injectors were individually actuated by a separate camshaft. It is rumoured that Cummins devised this system to avoid paying royalties to the inventors of the in line fuel pump, the German Robert Bosch company. In Britain, Lucas/CAV manufactured pumps under Bosch licence. The Cummins system rendered the engine unresponsive to modest movements of the accelerator – the engine was either "on" or "off". I never drove a Roadliner, but I have driven Lynxes and Olympians powered by the later L10 engine, and they were crude and rough. Proper fine control of the engine was impossible. The present day "B" series engine and its derivatives used in ADL buses was originally a design of the Case Corporation, and does not have the traditional extreme Cummins characteristics.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

———

22/03/12 – 08:16

I think Cummins survived (at least in Britain) because the passenger and freight markets don’t talk to each other much. The V engines may have been as bad in both, but Cummins were also building inline engines which seem to have been very successful, and which marked the beginning of the end of Gardner supremacy in ERF and Atkinson trucks among others.
What I find more surprising is the way the bus industry embraced the L10 after its earlier bad experiences.

Peter Williamson

———

22/03/12 – 13:41

Cummins came badly unstuck with some diesel-powered trains a few years ago, with them having to replace the unreliable engines at some cost to themselves.

Chris Hebbron

———

22/03/12 – 13:41

Many examples can be found where British companies made the best product in the world and then just sat back and allowed the rest to catch up. When the power to weight legislation came in the six cylinder inline Cummins did become popular with ERF and Atkinson buyers in the haulage sector, but it was more a case of supply rather than choice. The Cummins was more readily available than the Gardner, but it wasn’t as reliable and devoured fuel at an alarming rate. Gardner did have a ‘240’ inline eight cylinder marine engine that was very reliable for the job it was designed for but as a vehicle engine it wasn’t, but in fairness it was being asked to do a job for which it was never intended, marine engines tend to work for long periods at more or less a constant RPM, where as the RPM on a vehicle is constantly fluctuating, it gained a reputation as being unreliable. Gardner tried fitting a turbo to the 180, but through complacency they eventually fell victim to the classic British motor vehicle disease of failure to invest in development

Ronnie Hoye

———

22/03/12 – 13:42

Whatever merits the L10 may have had as a lorry engine, and one can but reflect upon such "merits" in the ultimate fates of ERF and Seddon Atkinson, it was not a good bus engine, having crude response to accelerator pressure resulting in very rough and jerky ride standards. Along with the Seddon Pennine IV, I would nominate the Cummins powered Lynx as the most horrible vehicle type that I have ever driven. Likewise, the Cummins Olympian was not a patch upon the sophistication of its Gardner equivalent. The L10 was enlarged into the 10.8 litre M11, and early tests with this engine proved that it was totally unsuitable for bus work. It is noteworthy that, along with ERF and Seddon Atkinson, the M11 has now virtually disappeared from the road haulage scene. The smaller "B" series used initially in the Dart and later in ADL ‘deckers as well is a much superior design.

Roger Cox

———

23/03/12 – 06:30

Rolls-Royce made the Eagle Diesel engine for lorries, which was not too good, and metamophosed into a Cummins engine on takeover, in the end, also not very good, I believe. Was the Eagle ever fitted into buses. I believe it was rather large.

Chris Hebbron

———

23/03/12 – 06:30

I am surprised at the comments about the Cummins L10 engine. My fleet took a batch of L10 powered Olympians which I viewed with some trepidation. However they matched the 6LX engined Fleetlines they replaced almost exactly in fuel consumption despite having rather more go about them. After an initial problem with cylinder head gasket failures (quickly modified and repaired by Cummins) reliability was exemplary and they were a delightfully simple to work on. Very different from their successor vehicles fitted with the Swedish engine – needed a fuel tanker to follow them round each day and not nice to work on. As for drivers’ comments about the L10, well there was nearly an international enquiry each time one of the fleet worked from the main depot after any repair work had been completed. The ones they couldn’t stand were some early Gardner Olympians with Voith transmission. The comment about replacing engines in diesel trains, I’m pretty sure this referred to trains built with MTU power units as the Cummins NT14 had given excellent service in BR built trains.

Looking at the photo of the Eastbourne bus I am struck that it would not look out of place amongst todays single deckers. It looks smart (the livery helps there), modern, well proportioned and purposeful. What a pity the Roadliner didn’t succeed as the concept was excellent. Still, neither AEC nor Leyland fared much better with early rear engined single deckers.

Ian Wild

———

23/03/12 – 07:14

SYPTE specified Rolls Royce Eagles to special order for all their Dennis Dominators and all their MCW Metrobuses. This only ended when they began a period of single deck purchase and operation with the Volvo B10M Alexander PS era. One must therefore assume that they were happy with their Eagles – which all had full service lives.
Roll Royce (Eagle) engines were bought by Perkins – not Cummins. (I believe they eventually, by a series of buy outs, ended up in common ownership – but the Eagle became a Perkins).

David Oldfield

———

23/03/12 – 09:35

Thx, David.

Chris Hebbron

———

24/03/12 – 09:19

From what I remember reading at the time, I’m pretty sure the Cummins L10 was designed specifically as a bus engine, and wasn’t used in lorries.
As for the Rolls Royce Eagle, I’ve heard exactly the same about that as Ronnie says about the 8-cylinder Gardner – that it was designed for marine use and wasn’t much good on the road. SYPTE chose it for extra muscle, which they felt they needed, and that being the case, they probably felt they had no choice but to stick with it. With the number they had, they would at least become world leaders in making it work!
Bristol Omnibus also used five or six Rolls-Royce powered Metrobuses in Bath. Anyone familiar with Bath and Sheffield will quickly see the connection!

Peter Williamson

———

24/03/12 – 09:20

Referring to Roger’s comments, the most difficult things I ever had to drive were a couple of ex Shearing’s L10, ZF manual Leyland Tigers. I always put it down to the clutch not being man enough for the job, but maybe I was wrong. Rogers comment about crude response to accelerator pressure producing a rough, jerky ride certainly rings true. Taming the beast was a challenge and then rejoicing when you got the knack! [One of my favourites was a ZF manual Tiger with TL11(260) engine.]
Not really experienced in the engineering or operating side, the number of negative comments on the L10 comes as a surprise. I have driven M11 powered Dennis Rs with AS-tronic – including a jaunt to the south of France – and found it most enjoyable experience. [I have known one vehicle for about six years. The engine has never given cause for concern.]

David Oldfield

———

24/03/12 – 18:08

The Gardner 240 bhp 8LXB was widely and successfully used in lorries; its problem was that it was physically large and very expensive. The 6LXB/C/D, even in turbocharged form, increasingly became unable to meet minimum power to weight requirements in the the haulage market. To compound the problem, British lorry manufacturers always charged a premium over and above the extra cost for Gardner- in his "Gardner" book, Graham Edge illustrates that the extra cost for a Gardner 8LXB of £1367 became a mark up of £3000 in the ERF sale price. In the straitened economic circumstances of the 1980s, the much cheaper Cummins L10, which was certainly widely installed as standard in Seddon Atkinson, Foden and ERF chassis, became the preferred option. I am not challenging the reliability or fuel economy characteristics of the Cummins, but I do hold fast on its unsatisfactory throttle response features. The Wikipedia entry on the Roadliner says, "The Cummins V6 had that manufacturer’s patented intermediate-pressure fuel pump and governor system, supplying the fuel to open-cup injectors through internal drilled fuel galleries, four-valve cylinder heads and tappet-actuated injection. This made the engine less than suitable for slow speed stop-start work……". The same characteristics were carried over into the L10.
Taking up Ian Wild’s point about a certain "Swedish" ‘decker engine, the two Gardner Olympians outstationed at Ramsey in the Huntingdonshire Fens could complete two days if required on a tank of fuel. The Volvo Olympians that replaced them not only drank fuel at a prodigious rate, but were equipped with smaller tanks, and had to be filled up twice in the same day. They also possessed the endearing characteristic of blowing out all the power steering fluid. With the Voith three speed transmission, which required the engine to scream up to near maximum revs in the lower two gears before changing up, they were, in my view, despite their powerful performance, decidedly less than impressive. I have also driven TL11 powered Olympians, which were smooth, civilised machines. Given a more enlightened political approach at the time, the TL11 had development potential that could have been reflected in a much stronger present day British engineering industrial base.

Roger Cox

———

25/03/12 – 09:07

Rolls Royce engines in trains (Bedford – St Pancras DMUs circa 1960) were a disaster, having an unfortunate propensity to ignite spontaneously. In the mid 1980s British Rail insisted on dual sourcing for the big class 158 fleet, so that some were fitted with Perkins engines, which proved inferior to the Cummins unit. (I think they may also have been fitted in some of the class 165s for the same reason, and with no better results.)

Stephen Ford

———

25/03/12 – 09:08

Being an enthusiast rather than an engineer, I have found Roger’s insight of the operational drawbacks of the Cummins L10 quite fascinating. Wasn’t this the standard engine fitted to the MCW Metroliner 3 axle double deck coaches new in the early/mid eighties?

Bob Gell

———

25/03/12 – 18:55

On the subject of reliability, a survey taken in 1979 by "Transport Engineer", the journal of the Institute of Road Transport Engineers investigated the maintenance costs of 9488 heavy lorries, fitted with 16 different engine types, operating at 30/32 tons gvw. This entirely independent review showed the 6LXB at the top of the list, costing just 0.265 pence per mile to maintain, with the 8LXB in close second place. This survey predated the introduction of the Cummins L10, which appeared in 1982, but the earlier Cummins straight six ranges occupied third and sixth places in the list, very creditable indeed. Doubtlessly the later L10 would have returned similar figures. Interestingly, the Leyland O680 and 510 came fourteenth and fifteenth respectively, just above Scania, the costs for which were six times those of the 6LXB. One can only reflect upon the figures for contemporary engines, with their high turbocharging pressures and costly emission control systems, together with their propensity to drink fuel like a dipsomaniac.

Roger Cox

———

30/03/12 – 07:05

I recall from my days on Southdown just after it’s sale to Stagecoach one of our depot fitters being less than impressed by the Gardner engines lack of oil tightness when fitted to a batch of recently delivered Olympians when compared to the Volvo D10M’s bought by the independent Southdown. He said you could get to work almost straight away on the Volvo when necessary with only a minimum of cleaning, whereas the Gardner took some time to get clean enough to work on.

Diesel Dave

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Motor Traction Company
1899
Daimler
Brazil, Holborough & Straker O26RO

Two of the first, if not the first, motor-buses involving a regular service in the UK was instituted, in London, by the Motor Traction Company, which, like many other companies of the era, considered and experimented with steam buses as an alternative to the then ubiquitous horse-drawn bus (and tram). The company was formed as the London Steam Omnibus Co Ltd, but rapidly metamorphosed into one interested in operating motor-buses, as no suitable steam buses were available. A prototype Daimler petrol bus was built in Bristol by Brazil, Holborough & Straker, thought to have been designed by Sydney Straker, of Straker-Squires fame. As per the photo, the 26-seat white-painted body was of the horse-bus type, with wooden, spoked wheels, with steel rims. Two vehicles were built and both vehicles and routes approved by the Metropolitan Police Public Carriage Department. They started a service on 9th October 1899, between Kensington Gate and Victoria Station, some 3 miles. Later, as evidenced by the photo, the route was changed to run from Kensington Gate to Oxford Circus, nearly 4 miles. Sadly, the patronage was poor, the service ceasing in December 1900, wholly in the 19th century, as the Victorians would aver!
It is not known why, in itself, this service was unsuccessful for, by 1903, the Met had approved applications for 61 mechanically-propelled buses to ply the London streets. It took until 1905 for London General (LGOC) to buy its first motor-buses; from Straker-Squire!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

———

08/03/12 – 14:20

Chris thanks for a really interesting piece of motor bus history I had not heard of the bodybuilder just Straker of course. Luckily someone had the foresight to snap the bus before its demise! these snippets of odd firms help our knowledge of the wider scene.

Ian Gibbs

———

08/03/12 – 15:00

This photo demonstrates a point which has always fascinated me with photos of buses (horse or mechanical) from this era – they all seem to look very dangerously top heavy. I’m not aware that they had a reputation for toppling over, but they all give the appearance that the slightest corner would have them on their side.

KC

———

12/03/12 – 16:17

I suppose that the mechanicals would have lowered the centre of gravity on motor buses, but horse buses would’ve been top-heavy I’d’ve thought, especially if there were more passengers ‘outside’ rather than inside.

Chris Hebbron