Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1949
Morris Commercial
Beadle B35R

618 was one of a pair (with 619) of Morris Commercial/Beadle buses bought by West Yorkshire in 1949. They were equipped with new Morris Commercial running units and a Morris-built Saurer 6 cylinder diesel engine. I believe Beadle produced this chassisless design for the BTC Group ex Tilling Companies with the intention of using re-conditioned parts. Crosville bought 22 Beadle chassisless buses with re-conditioned Leyland Cub parts and there maybe other operators with similar buses but I am not of aware of any other new-build Morris Commercial/Beadles like West Yorkshire 618/619 with other ex Tilling Companies.
618 and 619 never strayed from Harrogate and always seemed to operate on the local services in the town. Both buses had short operational service lives and lasted only until July 1956. Maybe these two buses were regarded as experimental by West Yorkshire which may explain their short time in service.
They were both then converted into depot service vans which extended their time with West Yorkshire for a year or two but both had been disposed of by 1959.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

18/03/12 – 15:20

Beadle actually built a single batch of 12 Morris/Saurer integrals for BTC Companies in 1949 with build numbers JCB82-94.
They were:
LTA 148/149 – Western National 2019/20.
MHU 246/247 – Bristol Tramways 2500/1.
HYG 972/973 – West Yorkshire RCC 618/619.
MHN 601/602 – United Automobile CBM 1/2.
FBD 915/916 – United Counties 115/6.
JRU 62/63 – Hants & Dorset TS 846/7.

John Stringer

19/03/12 – 09:13

The United Auto pair (later renumbered M1/2) were even shorter-lived than the WYRCC ones. Retired by UAS in 1955 they went to Bryn Melyn Motor Services of Llangollen which retired them in 1959 – it appears that they were then scrapped. Similar Beadle monstrosities with Bedford running units had equally short life spans and one can only presume that they were cheap!

Neville Mercer

19/03/12 – 09:14

What fascinating vehicles the Beadle-Morris integral buses were. Interesting how the batch was split into pairs for six operating companies John, and one wonders whether they may have been BTC trial vehicles perhaps. The West Yorkshire ones were renumbered SM1/2 (Single-deck, Morris engine) in 1954, and one or two of the older fitters referred to them as Morris-Saurers, due to the engines described by Richard. As stated above, West Yorkshire’s examples were converted by the company into rather neat- looking depot vans, becoming 1023/4 in the service vehicles fleet. (SM2 was converted in 1957, and SM1 in 1959, although both were withdrawn from passenger service as Richard says, in 1956). Each had hinged panels fitted partway along the roof, from the top of the rear doors forwards. This allowed heavier items to be loaded or unloaded using an overhead crane or an ‘iron man’ portable winch. Each vehicle was also shortened from a point behind the rear axle, and their side windows were panelled over. They were painted Tilling green with gold fleet names for their new role, and looked quite attractive conversions.

Brendan Smith

19/03/12 – 14:13

I would be interested to know more about the two operated by Bristol Nos 2500/2501. The registration numbers are from 1949 when I was still in a pram but I cannot recall ever seeing or hearing anything of them. Does anyone have any pictures or idea where they were used and sold/scrapped? They don’t exactly look like things of beauty!

Richard Leaman

19/03/12 – 15:30

Quite interesting that the Ex Tilling companies specified Beadle chassisless units as service buses, whereas the BET used Beadle for batches of coach bodies during these years, using reclaimed pre war running units.
I believe that some BTC companies also received integral Beadle service buses using reclaimed units, the Crosville examples coming to mind, with Pre-war Leyland Cub units.
Another fascinating exercise was that at Eastern Counties, where Dennis Ace units were used in ECW single deck bodies in a similar "chassisless" enterprise.
Quite an interesting subject to look back on, and well worth opening up to wider discussion!

John Whitaker

19/03/12 – 17:34

Does anybody know of any pictures of the two WYRCC examples after conversion to depot service vans.

Eric

19/03/12 – 17:37

The Bristol Tramways pair didn’t last long either, being sold to a dealer in November 1958 and later passing to a showman.

Michael Wadman

20/03/12 – 15:57

Another fascinating posting from Richard F. Thanks very much, Richard.
As my friend John W points out, this is a most interesting topic that raises a whole range of issues. As John W also points out, for instance, Beadle were involved in the early 1950’s with all three South-eastern BET companies, who had quite a lot of semi-chassisless or integral vehicles, with Leyland, AEC and Commer mechanicals. These, as far as the Leyland and AEC running gear was concerned, were largely constructed re-using pre-war parts. (M&D also experimented with integral vehicles by Harrington/Commer, and even a single Saunders-Roe vehicle, fitted, I think, with a Gardner 5LW engine).
However, all these vehicles, whether buses or coaches, were intended for standard operations rather than for lighter duties like the Morris Commercials. I wonder how such an apparently unlikely combination of Nuffield, Beadle and the BTC came about. After all, Morris were hardly mainstream PSV manufacturers, and why was a Saurer engine chosen over other, well-known alternatives?
The ‘wider discussion’ John W calls for might also include the not altogether successful history of light-weight vehicles in general. WY and many other large operators had a few Bedford OBs, which were also quite common amongst independents, but with the possible exception of the Bristol SC, the production of a good light-weight PSV seems to escaped most manufacturers. In my day, there was the unlamented Albion Nimbus, and I guess most of us can remember awful Ford Transit or Mercedes-Benz van-based vehicles, (post OBP period, thankfully!). The prevailing view I remember, however, was the seeming attractiveness of lower initial price and running costs were always going to be outweighed by shorter vehicle life and less dependable service, as well as lack of appeal to passengers. As a senior M&D manager once said to me, ‘Light weights aren’t worth a candle. We should stick to having the right tools for the job!’

Roy Burke

20/03/12 – 17:18

Agree with the M & D manager wholeheartedly but the Albion Victor VTL21 (with Leyland 0.375 engine) was, rather like the Gilford in recent threads, very highly regarded by those who took a chance and bought one. [They were really Leyland’s own answer to the Bedford SB13 – which had the same engine. Significantly, for what they were (light-weight) all Leyland powered Bedfords were at least rated well, if not highly.] The Albion Victor suffered, like the Bridgemaster and FRM1 from being introduced onto the market after newer, more popular designs had cornered the market. It was also more expensive than an SB13!
As for the Morrises….. They had limited prewar success with the Viceroy and Dictator but then withdrew in the face of competition from the big boys. They tried again with an OB sized vehicle after the war, but no-one toppled the OB. Morris had a long and honourable tradition but by 1950 had very old-fashioned engines. Thus when they merged with Austin to form BMC, they also acquired Austin engines and gearboxes which were more up to date and, frankly, better. There wasn’t anything suitable in the cupboard for commercials, so Morris used a Saurer engine built under licence – so strictly it was their own. [Shades of Crossley – sic.]

David Oldfield

21/03/12 – 07:34

The Morris Commercial diesel engines were licensed built Saurer designs that came in 3.4 litre 4 cylinder and 5.1 litre 6 cylinder versions. These engines later had their capacities increased to 3.8 litre and 5.7 litre respectively, and continued in production under Leyland ownership, when they were called the 4/98 and 6/98 – the "98" was the bore measurement in mm, and the stroke was 125 mm.
Saurer pioneered a version of the toroidal piston cavity, sometimes used in conjunction with a four valve head. Other engine makers using the Saurer principles were required to pay royalties, which Crossley, for one, refused to do, with catastrophic consequences for that Company.
The pre-war Morris Commercial bus models had imposing names such as Viceroy, Dictator, Imperial and Director, and some, at least, were designed by AEC’s former Chief Designer Charles K. Edwards, but they did not earn a good reputation and soon vanished from the scene.
Apparently, one of the early Beadle chassisless buses was fitted with Dennis Ace running units and went to Eastern Counties. Perhaps this vehicle was the inspiration for the 16 ECW/Dennis chassisless buses of 1950 that used Ace components.

Roger Cox

21/03/12 – 11:50

Fascinating responses from Roy and others on the "chassisless" debate, which seemed to be "raging" 1949/50 ish. and especially the strategic differences between BTC and BET, with all sorts of side players such as Sentinel.
I know Bristol/ECW had a captive market, but the ensuing chassisless LS was perhaps strongly influenced by this activity, and it was far more successful than the Leyland and AEC variants, even though later replaced by a "Chassis" MW version.
Most of the rural bus operators probably needed lightweight vehicles for sparse and unremunerative routes, and hence the "WYRC "Flying Pigs" and their post war replacements in the form of Beadle OBs , but it would seem that Bristol were intent on using the lighter weight of this concept as a way forward with fuel efficiency for full size vehicles. Just how successful this sort of approach was is not for me to say, as my bus operating experience is "nil".
Was the success of the LS due mainly to its lack of competition, or was it truly a bus operator`s dream?

John Whitaker

22/03/12 – 08:11

Eric, there is a photograph of the pair of West Yorkshire depot vans in a book by Colin Wright – ‘Bus Company Service Vehicles’ (Trucks in Britain Vol 4). I had not realised just how much shorter WY had made them during their conversion until I had hunted out the book again. Looking at the picture of the vans, there are only two bays within the wheelbase, instead of the four present when in bus form. Their integral construction no doubt made the removal of the various unwanted parts easier than on a chassised vehicle. They were fascinating vehicles, but it has to be said that the Beadle bodies did look quite quaint – the styling being somewhat at odds with the technological image associated with integral construction at the time.

Brendan Smith

22/03/12 – 13:31

Thanks Brendan for the information and description. I’ll keep a lookout for that book at events this summer.

Eric

22/03/12 – 13:32

Quaint is not the word I would have chosen for their bodies, Brendan: the kindest I could be would be eccentric!
Its fascinating the way there are hints of ECW with the cream/white strip above the windows.

Chris Hebbron

25/03/12 – 08:58

The comments on lightweight buses stirred some memories. West Yorkshire Road Car took delivery of four ECW-bodied Bedford VAM14 service buses in 1967 (SML 1-4: Single-deck, one Man operation, Leyland engine). They were part of a THC order for twenty (Western National and Eastern Counties were the other recipients) and were meant to be a stop gap measure pending the Bristol LH going into production in 1968. The VAM appeared to be a well-respected lightweight chassis, being popular with many small to medium-sized operators in the independent (especially coaching) sector. Sadly however, the four WY examples lasted barely four years in the fleet. Apparently, they went through quite a few clutches and prop shafts in that time, and they were not too popular with drivers. The Leyland 0.400 engines proved reliable however, and the buses were simple to maintain and repair, but fitters at Grove Park depot (home to two of the VAMs) felt they were just ‘too lightweight’ for their intended duties. Much as Roy, David and the M&D manager would probably concur.

Brendan Smith

14/09/12 – 07:12

The two mentioned JRU 63 and JRU 62 ended up at Aston Coaches Marton in February 1963 and were operated in the PSV fleet for a short time then sold to French Collett Cumnor, Astons also has a number of Leyland Beadles EFU 855/841/842

David Aston

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/07/14 – 08:07

Over two years ago this thread discussed Beadle chassisless buses with Morris running units. Neville Mercer wrote:-
"The United Auto pair (later renumbered M1/2) were even shorter-lived than the WYRCC ones. Retired by UAS in 1955 they went to Bryn Melyn Motor Services of Llangollen which retired them in 1959 – it appears that they were then scrapped. Similar Beadle monstrosities with Bedford running units had equally short life spans and one can only presume that they were cheap!"
Two points arise.
1. is there any possibility that the bodies of the Llangollen pair were those shipped to Macau – with or without chassis?
2. The Bedford OB/Beadle chassisless, ex-ENOC which went to Macau lasted in arduous service until 1974/75.
In both cases reference to my book (DTS Publishing) gives details.

Mike Davis

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

York – West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26 re-bodied H28/28R in 1955

This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.
West Yorkshire decided on a major rebuild of the K5G chassis which included new side frames and re-registering for this last tranche of eleven buses that were re-bodied by the ECW. These buses were 26ft long so the ECW body which was of the style to fit the 27 ft Bristol KS chassis was shortened. This is evident by the reduced width of the front side cab window and also the upper saloon side front windows. I believe similar ECW bodies were supplied to Brighton, Hove and District for their re-bodied ex London Transport Bristol K6As in 1954/55.
The re-registering the chassis was not the usual practice by West Yorkshire as many of their single decker Bristol J chassis received new side frames in the period 1946/47 when their bodies were rebuilt but kept the same registrations as did all the earlier 1937/38 prewar re-bodied Bristol K5Gs. Maybe someone can explain the policy of when to re-register a chassis. I wonder whether the York residents thought YDG 88 was a new bus as I think the Gardner 5LW engine was still rigidly mounted so a loud noise and vibration would be evident for the passengers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

A full list of West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

———

21/08/11 – 16:24

A most fascinating resume of this particular batch of rebuilds – I wonder if the method used to "get rid of" the extra 12 inches of the more modern bodywork caused any degree of cramping in the cab – I imagine it must have done. The destination blind brings back far more recent memories for me of my days helping out willingly at Selby Depot for Caldaire/British Bus/Cowie/Arriva. Our normal York services were to Leeds, Doncaster, Goole or Pontefract, but unexpectedly an evening service (409) was commenced from Piccadilly to Fulford Broadway – un-necessary, and competition gone mad !!

Chris Youhill

———

22/08/11 – 07:45

Chris, the KS had a longer bonnet with the front bulkhead set back a bit to accommodate the Gardner 6LW engine, hence the greater length of the cab. I imagine that the rebuilt body on the K5G and K6A would have retained the original cab dimensions of those models. A similar situation existed with the Guy Arab III, which had the extra length for a 6LW in the "snout", whereas the Arab IV had the bulkhead repositioned slightly further back to avoid feature of the projecting radiator.

Roger Cox

———

23/08/11 – 10:02

It’s been something of a puzzle to many why this particular batch of West Yorkshire K-type ‘rehabs’ was re-registered Richard. When their prewar chassis were overhauled at WY Central Works, they were rebuilt with new chassis side members, and all other major units and components were overhauled, and refitted to the chassis. New PV2 radiators were also fitted, to give a more modern appearance. As you say, earlier batches of WY K-types similarly treated were not re-registered. Whether the ‘Yorkies’ also had new cross-members and outriggers fitted to the chassis on overhaul I do not know, but it may be a possibility and thus the chassis could have been deemed to be ‘new’ and re-registered?
In John F Gill’s informative ‘History of York-West Yorkshire’ the author states that the JOC decided that YDG66-76 "should be rebuilt with new chassis utilising the original running units and fitted with new bodies at the approximate cost of £2500 per vehicle, and that if possible the vehicles should be re-registered". Later in the text John mentions that the old bodies had been removed and scrapped at Harrogate, new chassis parts fitted at WY’s Central Works costing £272, and the new ECW bodies cost £1077 each. Presumably labour and other costs would have then taken the figure nearer to the aforementioned £2500. All fascinating stuff, but which also begs the question – why was the batch also renumbered following rebuild to become YDG82-92? What handsome machines though, and very ‘York’. The lack of adverts on YDG88 also shows up the shine of the hand-painted coachwork a treat. Very nice!

Brendan Smith

———

23/08/11 – 14:13

Reregistration of rebuilds seems to be a complex subject. Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and County Motors all rebodied Leyland PS2s as double deckers, as they had a surplus of single deckers. While the YWD ones kept the registrations of the original chassis those in the YTC fleet were given marks contemporary with the new bodies. Presumably Dewsbury CBC was not willing to reregister these rebuilt vehicles but Barnsley was.
County tried to give theirs new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow it so they were transferred to YTC and reregistered by Barnsley.
Bristol Tramways rebuilt some early 1930s B types with L type chassis in 1949 and the wartime bodies were lengthened. Later they were given 1949 bodies yet they always retained the 1930s registrations. This was to get round limits on the number of new chassis Bristol could build after nationalisation by classifying these as rebuilds, including retaining the B chassis number with an L suffix.

Geoff Kerr

———

24/08/11 – 08:19

One aspect which has gone unnoticed/unmentioned is the the whole range of the DG index was a Gloucestershire registration mark!

Chris Hebbron

———

24/08/11 – 10:30

Chris H I spotted that but after reading the first posting again, I think that was a fleet number rather than the registration as it quote a different one..
Quote "This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955."
I was puzzled by the Gloucestershire link as well!

Richard Leaman

———

24/08/11 – 20:48

You’re right, Richard. For example, I was thinking the reference Y702 was the fleet number, followed by the reg’n mark, whereas it was the body, then fleet number. Silly me!

Chris Hebbron

———

24/08/11 – 20:50

YDG is the fleet number! Was I dreaming again? What this has to do with Gloucestershire registration marks I do not follow! YDG stands for York..double deck..Gardner.
This is a wonderfully evocative post, and a super photograph. What I would give to hear the wonderful sounds they made just once more!
I have been attempting to research which other Tilling fleets had this short style of KS body apart from York. Brighton H and D rebodied their ex London Bs to this style, and Hants and Dorset also rebodied some Ks to this style, some open top.
Something tells me there were others. Please can anyone advise?

John Whitaker

———

25/08/11 – 07:07

That is a very interesting question John W, something which has intrigued me, not so much who had them but how the final outcome was determined. It shows, in a way, that the Bristol K could have had a four bay body all along but of course they didn’t really come into vogue until the late 1940’s and ECW hadn’t designed such a thing until the advent of the KS. When other chassis makes arrived for rebodying, however, the five bay style was usually retained, I’m thinking of Guy Arabs and an AEC Regent for Midland General in 1955 and Guy Arabs, Leyland PD1’s and Albions for Scottish companies. Were former Tilling companies able to state any requirements or was it entirely down to the drawing office at Lowestoft, or were other factors involved?

Chris Barker

———

26/08/11 – 06:55

Very intriguing Chris, I agree. Perhaps the nationalised ownership had something to do with it in that Bristols, the "official" make, could be rebuilt with a "modern" look, whereas non Bristols did not matter in the same way, even if under BTC control as was Mansfield.
In the case of York-West Yorkshire, I strongly suspect that these vehicles were presented to the public as new, which, in a way, they were, but just re-using reconditioned running units. Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue. It would perhaps have been difficult also to fit KS frames, as other mitigating circumstances would apply, such as prop shaft lengths etc. I am pretty sure that the Brighton and Hants and Dorset rebodies retained original chassis frames, as they were not re registered , but I am open to correction as always!

John Whitaker

———

26/08/11 – 06:56

Chris, ECW did build a batch of twelve experimental 4-bay bodies on K-type chassis in 1948/49, and one actually went to York-West Yorkshire (YDB73). Brighton Hove & District and Bristol also received one each, with Eastern Counties taking the remaining nine. An ex-ECOC example was stored at West Yorkshire’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate for a while in the 1980’s. It looked in need of a lot of love and attention, and I don’t know who owned it or what happened to it, but hope such a rare vehicle survived into preservation. The body did look a bit ‘odd’ though, as it was of full four-bay construction rather than four-and-a-quarter. The overall outline was of a standard highbridge ECW body of the period, but with the main side windows ‘stretched’ lengthways. Front and rear upper deck side windows remained short in length however, as on a standard K-type body. This, and the lack of a quarter window or panel ahead of the rear platform looked decidedly strange, and the later 4-bay design used on the KS/KSW chassis looked to me, a more balanced and happier design.

Brendan Smith

———

26/08/11 – 14:35

I have always loved the ECW high-bridge special four and a quarter bay body built on the Bristol K chassis 1954 /55. I bought the photo of YDG 88 posted above on a West Yorkshire Information Service Tour in 1956 and now sharing it with others has brought a great deal of information about these lovely Bristol K5G buses. I believe there were only 27 of these special bodies built. Brighton had 6, Hants & Dorset had 10 and York West Yorkshire had 11 and all were re bodies. If anybody has further information of more than the 27 I have listed, please submit a comment.

Richard Fieldhouse

———

27/08/11 – 07:27

Quoting John above..
" Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue."
I used to live very near to the Bristol Commercial Vehicle works (Motor Constructional Works if preferred!) and when riding my three wheeler bike past the open yard, even then I saw that piles of brake drums, axle assemblies, chassis rails, steering components etc. etc, were left just lying outside on a patch of ground right next to the main Bath Road and completely unprotected except for the silver paint! No railings, no fence, no security and left there for years! Selecting parts for one off designs would have not been any problem!
Try doing that now and keeping them there overnight would be a challenge. Different days!

Richard Leaman

———

30/08/11 – 08:01

That indeed would explain it Richard! Piles of chassis frames etc at the Bristol works when you passed on your bike. We used to make similar excursions on our bikes around various depots and scrap yards in the Bradford area. Times have changed as you say!
Perhaps new chassis sides were fitted to the H & D and B H & D rebodies, even if not re-registered.
There were no lowbridge equivalents as far as I can see, and it was about this time when H and D had some K chassis rebodied with lowbridge ECW bodies built to the original 5 bay style, some, I believe, as "8 footers"
All detailed in ECW Part 2, a book I have unfortunately mislaid!

John Whitaker

Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

West Yorkshire 774 (DB 36) Bristol K6B is seen new at Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford on the Ilkley stand in 1950 on the 63 service via Manningham Lane to Shipley, an intermediate place before Ilkley. The service at this time ran every 30 minutes with the alternate bus in the hour running as a 68 service via Canal Road to Shipley and then to Ilkley. Only recently had the 63/68 service been operated by double deckers due to a revision of the route in Ilkley which now avoided a low railway bridge in Ben Rhydding. The Bradford to Ilkley service was previously operated by single decker pre-war Bristol L5Gs and Bristol JO5Gs.
This was a route I used often and loved the challenge to the buses climbing Hollins Hill and also the (A65) road dip under the railway bridge near Burley-in-Wharfedale. This bridge was removed after the line from Burley to Otley closed in March 1965. The road level was then changed so no more excitement at testing the bus suspension.
The Bristol K6B/ECW buses were the workhorses for many BTC fleets during the fifties and sixties and this was certainly the case with West Yorkshire. I can never recall a breakdown and the Bristol K6B was certainly a most reliable type of bus. A lovely feature which I often heard on a still evening at home was the throb across the fields of the Bristol AVW engine caused I think by the fuel governor. Perhaps someone with more expert knowledge of Bristol bus mechanics can explain.
Another interesting feature at Chester Street Bus Station seen on the photograph was the green hut adjacent to the Ilkley stand which served as the Inspectors Office. This hut had also the store racks for the “bible” indicators used on most of the pre-war West Yorkshire buses. This hut was always a fascinating place for a small boy to watch the busy activity of the drivers/conductors collecting or returning these cumbersome indicator boards.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

———

25/05/11 – 16:52

Dare I be precocious enough Richard to say that this excellent piece was written specially for me ?? – a tongue in cheek remark obviously. This is a route known very well to me as a passenger and, later, as a conductor when I worked at WYRCC’s Ilkley Depot in 1960/1. As you rightly say, the Inspectors’ green hut in Chester Street was a constant hive of activity.
Did you know that Chester Street was actually the public thoroughfare right through the centre of the bus station??, although virtually all motorists assumed that it belonged to The Company and so didn’t dare to use it !! Sometime after the "double decking" of the Ilkley services the hourly 68 was discontinued (apart from a few peak hour trips Monday to Friday) and the half hourly service became entirely 63 via Manningham Lane.
There were actually two adjacent railway bridges over the A65 below Menston and, as you say, it was somewhat terrifying for passengers and drivers on the approach, as it seemed certain that the bus roof would be rudely removed – and the sensation was even worse with Samuel Ledgard’s highbridge vehicles.
I can’t honestly remember the intermediate destination blinds being as commendably detailed as shown here – later editions showed only Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross. The bottom line in this picture is a little blurred but appears also to say Burley Ben Rhydding. Incidentally the Company seemed to think that Bradford residents would not have heard of Ben Rhydding and so the rule was that on leaving Bradford "ILKLEY" would be shown, and upon reaching the area of local knowledge at Burley the display had to be altered to show "BEN RHYDDING." I’m always blissfully happy to be reminded of those lovely enjoyable days so thank you again.

Chris Youhill

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26/05/11 – 07:30

Very interesting comments about Bradford. Whilst I have a good knowledge of the present day city centre, I’m afraid I have no memories of how it was. Would I be correct in thinking that Chester Street Bus Station was taken out of use when the interchange opened? Do any traces of it still exist or has it been completely obliterated? I’ve seen many a photograph taken against the background of the white wall and always thought it looked a very evocative place.

Chris Barker

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27/05/11 – 08:35

I’ve no idea, Chris B, about the present status of Chester Street but I’ll certainly have an "on site" look next time I visit the National Media Museum only a couple of hundred yards (or metres nowadays) away.

Chris Youhill

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27/05/11 – 08:37

Chester Street closed with the advent of the Interchange. Chester Street is now just a street and is changed totally although some of the buildings on the"West Yorkshire" side still exist

Chris Hough

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27/05/11 – 09:35

I fear, Chris Y, that you will be sadly disappointed, although not surprised, at the present state of Chester Street. It is now a busy dual-carriageway – part of a typical inner-city gyratory road system. However, some of the background buildings seen on old bus photos are still recognisable, eg. the roof lights of the old Public Baths in Morley Street (now a Wetherspoons).
On the Hebble side, there’s a new building, but the West Yorkshire loading area now seems to be a car park. The much-rebuilt 1960s Mecca Ballroom multi-storey, seen in latter day photos of the bus station, still dominates the background at the western entrance.

Paul Haywood

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29/05/11 – 07:18

Chris B, as Chris H says, Chester Street bus station was closed following the opening of the Interchange in I think, 1977 – the year of The Queen’s Silver Jubilee. Chris Y’s comment about Chester Street being a public thoroughfare is most interesting, as I remember the roadway very well, but must admit would not have dared to use it for the reason outlined by Chris! The bus station spanned an area between Little Horton Lane (opposite the Silver Blades ice rink) and Morley Street (opposite the top end – or rear – of The Alhambra theatre). It was a place of much interest to the enthusiast with West Yorkshire, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, Hebble and Samuel Ledgard vehicles using it. (Am I right in thinking that Ribble also used it for coaches linking Lancashire and Yorkshire?) In the mid-sixties Bradford CT added even more variety with its AEC Regent Vs and Daimler CVG6LXs, following an agreement allowing joint operation of the Bradford – Eldwick – Dick Hudson’s service with West Yorkshire. It seemed strange at first seeing a bright blue ‘Corporation’ bus in what otherwise seemed to be a mainly red ‘Company’ bus station, but Bradfordians are not easily fazed and took it all in their stride! As Paul states, Chester Street still exists, but sadly as yet another stretch of dual carriageway.

Brendan Smith

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31/05/11 – 18:49

This piece was written for me too, Chris. What amazing memories it conjures up! Many a time have I boarded the bus for Ilkley at that very spot against the famous green shed.
I knew Chester Street as a lad, right up to leaving Bradford in 1968, and remember the through street so well, and can count 6 operators who used the facility:-
West Yorkshire, Ledgard, Hebble, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, and Sheffield (C ?).
West Riding also came into Bradford, but from memory, did not use Chester Street.
I always associate older generation Bristols with Gardner "5"s, but the AVW was extremely characterful from a "music" point of view, and made for an extremely fast bus. I can remember "flying" along on the routes out of Bradford, especially past Shipley, and the HWW batch represented, to me, the pinnacle of ECW post war design. Flush interior sides, tubular seats, and metal framing all came together in these vehicles to produce a quality of vehicle not yet bettered, in my view. Superb buses!

John Whitaker

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01/06/11 – 07:44

I’m glad there is such affection for the Bristol K (especially the 6B). Many people seem to turn their noses up, calling them boring and bog-standard etc. and I hate to hear it. For sure, you could find them from Lands End (Western National) to Northumberland (United), and Yarmouth (Eastern Counties) to Pwellheli (Crosville)- and a lot of other places and operators in between (take a bow, West Yorkshire). But you will notice that all of the extremities I listed are coastal holiday destinations. For me Bristol K6Bs (and their melodious note in second and third gears, which I could cheerfully listen to for hours) are inextricably associated with happy memories of seaside holidays. (And the sun always shone!)

Stephen Ford

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01/06/11 – 07:47

I agree fully John with your commendation of the "HWW" DBs, but their super qualities were suddenly eclipsed for we Ilkley folk when 806 – 809 (DBW1 – 4) arrived – 8 feet wide and with classy white steering wheels. Originally having open platforms (returned later to ECW for doors) they seemed quite simply enormous and spacious and they are a batch from my teenage years which I still hold in great affection.

Chris Youhill

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01/06/11 – 07:50

The Chester Street, Bradford thread made me dig out this photo of Ledgard MLL 828 (former RT3518) which clearly shows the through road between the chain fences separating the West Yorkshire stands from "the others". Unlike most of my photos, this one has the date 14 June 1964 written on it, and it shows the buildings on Little Horton Road being demolished to make way for the Silver Blades Ice Rink (owned by Mecca but not a Ballroom as I mistakenly said in my previous thread.)

Paul Haywood

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01/06/11 – 10:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the "new" excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker

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01/06/11 – 10:22

Stephen, among my many fond memories of the "DB"s one of my favourite recollections couldn’t possibly be further from the seaside !! When I was a conductor at WYRCC Ilkley Depot any of our Lodekkas away for the statutory two weeks overhaul was replaced by a "KDB" from Keighley – one of the batch between KDB 54 -7. One foul Winter evening, with very heavy snow, I left Ilkley with the 5.25 pm to Haworth on service K12 driven by Brian Wadsworth. After we left Addingham to climb to the "whited out" summit at Marchup Cottages the bus began to boil very seriously. This, of course, was long before two way radios and mobile telephones and we felt rather as if we were approaching the North Pole. – "Only one thing for it" said Brian "We’ll have to fill it up with snow." We both set about the task with gusto, while the red hot radiator and engine hissed and tinkled in astonished protest. Once we achieved the necessary level we resumed the journey – to Haworth and back to Ilkley for 8.07pm – without incident. Looking back of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a really foolish first aid measure which I imagine could have caused considerable damage – if Brendan is reading this I must plead forgiveness on the grounds of youthful ignorance of engineering matters and hope that he won’t hold it against me !!

Chris Youhill

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01/06/11 – 11:22

I agree with Stephen on every count – especially the AVW

David Oldfield

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01/06/11 – 16:50

With such foul weather, I assume, Chris Y, that the radiator was emptied and re-filled with water/antifreeze mix later, to avoid saying goodbye prematurely to the radiator and/or block!

Chris Hebbron

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02/06/11 – 05:57

Don’t worry Chris, most people would excuse your first aid measure, as you and your driver showed great initiative under extreme conditions in order to keep the show on the road! Your escapade reminded me of a tale related by Ken Robinson, for many years engine shop foreman at West Yorkshire’s Central Works. Ken was going home to Knaresborough one evening after work, and noted that the bus he was travelling on (a Lodekka) had started to boil en route. On arrival at the bus station the bus was steaming away merrily, but the driver seemed oblivious to this and was about to depart for Harrogate again when Ken intervened. Built like a Foden truck, he was a very fair man, but one who did not suffer fools gladly and spoke his mind when ruffled. He informed the driver who he was, and said under no circumstances was he to leave the site without filling the bus up with water. The driver, no doubt trying to avert being reported, duly did this, and Ken went on his way. Ken said he had only realised a little while later what he had asked of the driver, and hoped that the Lodekka’s red hot radiator and cylinder block had not cracked when the cold water had been poured in!! Thankfully all must been well as he heard no more about the incident, and no doubt gave a sigh of relief that the driver had not reported HIM!!

Brendan Smith

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12/06/11 – 07:54

My best memories of all types of Bristol are from WYRCC service 30 between Bradford and Leeds. From Bradford the route ran along Canal Road, then up Kings Road with a right turn into steep Queens Road, which is where the fun began. There were almost inevitably passengers to alight/board just after the lights, and if the driver was really unlucky, also at the stop a little further up, which meant a standing start on a steep incline just before the gradient became even worse prior to the junction with Bolton Road. I recall that on a fully-laden bus on this steepest section all conversation would cease as the driver waited for the very last engine beat before engaging bottom gear in the crash gearbox. If successful, (as it usually was), there would be a collective sigh of relief, and a settling down for the long slow haul up to Bolton Junction, a stretch of road shared with Bradford trolleybuses which flew up the gradient in great contrast to the grinding Bristols.

Robert Appleby

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13/06/11 – 07:59

Very evocative, Robert, I can picture the scene vividly, just as you describe!

Chris Hebbron

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19/06/11 – 10:28

Your stories of boiling Bristols takes me back to the early 1950’s and to the sunny fields of Somerset. My Great Aunt had a farm at Somerton and my mother and I used to travel from Bristol to stay for a week or so during the school holidays. At the time my father had a firm’s car but could not use it privately so to get there involved a journey on the bus. Leaving Prince Street (the original bus terminal), we rode on mostly Bristol GO5G or Lowbridge K Bristols, the height being important due to the number of railway bridges on the A38 as the old Radstock coal lines and the wonderful Somerset and Dorset railways crossed over the road.
The journey was around forty miles down to Street where the route ended and my most clear memory was that it seemed to take the whole afternoon to get there and when we arrived the bus was always boiling merrily but nobody seemed concerned! The stop was outside a hotel and maybe the driver topped up for the return journey home with water from there.
The onward journey to Somerton was around 5/6 miles and for that part my memory is dim but with the benefit of age, I’m fairly sure it was probably done in a locally run Bedford OB.. another of my favourites!
Memories! I’m sorry my posting is not about the Yorkshire days but back then, it might as well have been in Africa for us Southern softies!

Richard Leaman

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11/07/11 – 07:36

Like Stephen, I too am glad there is much affection for the Bristol/ECW K (and come to that, its single-decked sibling the L). It has all the hallmarks of a classic bus in having a well-engineered chassis with an enviable reliability record, a soundly-constructed yet attractively-styled body, and above all else a fitness for purpose. The melodious gearbox was an added bonus, together with that ‘chuckle’ from the transmission sometimes heard when setting off up a gentle incline.
Robert’s comments about the notorious hill starts at the Queen’s Road/Bolton Road junction in Bradford brought back memories as I know that area well. Another ‘unlucky driver’ spot was the bus stop towards the top end of Hollins Hill between Shipley and White Cross, which served the residents of Esholt. For a while in the mid-sixties I travelled by bus to school in Bradford each day from Harrogate (route 53 via Otley) and dreaded this stop on the journey home, where speed was obviously of the essence. A ‘drop off’ here meant an endless crawl in a low gear to the top of the hill for the poor bus and its driver – even with the newer Lodekkas. As a schoolboy I found it both fascinating and frustrating that passengers only ever seemed to alight here – nobody ever boarded! In my schoolboy mind I was convinced that ‘they’ did this deliberately, rather than catching their own Esholt (65) bus home! For much of the journey Samuel Ledgard ‘deckers could also be seen, and a schoolboy cheer could often be heard when ‘our’ West Yorkshire steed overtook one at a bus stop – only to be replaced with a "boo!" when the ‘Sammie’s’ passed us at a bus stop later on! Happy days indeed.

Brendan Smith

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