Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1952
Guy Arab III
Weymann H30/26R

On the last leg of its journey from Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island to Newcastle Haymarket, this 1952 H30/26R Weymann bodied Guy Arab III was one of ten in the NGT Tynemouth and District fleet; FT 7381/90 181/90. When new the livery would have been the same as the two Regent’s and the Pickering Arab featured elsewhere on this site. The interiors of these sturdy well built bodies were finished to a very high standard, they were double skinned throughout, the lights had glass covers with chrome bezels and the area around the window’s was finished off with polished wood surrounds. As with all of T&D vehicles of the period, the seat cushions and backrests were upholstered in a rather attractive dark red moquette, the backs and cushion edges were trimmed in leather. Percy Main’s first 8ft wide buses, they were also the first with sliding cab doors, but they were a heavy beast and lacked many of the creature comforts we now take for granted. No heaters or power steering, they had a crash box and the brakes could best be described as adequate. They were fitted with the almost indestructible Gardner 5LW and breakdowns were extremely rare, but they were anything but fast, and these days they would be underpowered and would struggle to keep pace with traffic, but they could scale the North Face of The Eiger ‘metaphorically speaking’. I was 6 in 1952, so in my youth I must have clocked up quite a few passenger miles on these, but they were withdrawn in 1966 so I never drove one on service. However, one vehicle in particular was to play a significant part in my life; at the tender age of 21, in January 1967 I started my driver training at Percy Main and passed my test two weeks later, the training vehicle was 189 and the instructor was a chap called Jackie Gallon. He taught me how to start off using the clutch, then go through the box from 1 to 4 and back to 1 just by listening to the engine ‘no rev counters in those days’ the object of the exercise was to keep the engine in tune with the gearbox, and done properly the gears would just fall into place as smooth as silk, but get it wrong and everyone within a radius of 100yd’s would hear about it. Once you’ve mastered the technique you can get a quick change down on a hill that would rival any other gearbox I’ve ever encountered. The early Orion bodied Arabs that followed these were stripped to the bone to achieve lightness, but they were an unpleasant vehicle to be on as you were subjected to a constant barrage of knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, and the interiors looked cheap and chatty in comparison. I know of some similar Weymann bodies have survived, but I’m not aware of any on a Guy chassis.
As a footnote, If you look behind the bus, going in the opposite direction is what looks like the rear of a MK 3 Zodiac, so the photo cant be earlier than 1962, but by the layout and style of the Shop At Binns logo, I would say it was about 1964.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

24/03/13 – 15:09

Another gem from Ronnie! I note his comments about learning to drive a bus. Crash box? My first experience of driving a bus was on one of the Hampshire Bus (ex Wilts & Dorset) FLF trainers. That had a crash box. Going up was easy but, for coming down, I was told to make sure the speedo was showing precisely 20 for 4 to 3, and precisely 12 for 3 to 2. 1 was used only for hill starts. A chap at what was then Southampton Citybus was telling me one day that his instructor had said double declutching is for amateurs – if you listen to the engine, you can go straight through. This ties in very nicely with Ronnie’s comment about being in tune, and it ties in with what others on this site have said about the rear engine!

Pete Davies

24/03/13 – 15:10

Looking at the main photo and reading the text I was convinced the photo was indicative of Tyneside as I knew it when visiting in 1958/9. Then I saw Ronnie’s blow up inset and his comment about the Zodiac which is quite correct.

 
Apart from the Commer C series Mk2 (I can hear "the Knocker" as I type!) in front of what is presumably a PD2 (whose?) there is, at the extreme left, the front wing of a Sunbeam Rapier distinguishable from its Rootes Group contemporaries by its wheel embellisher.
A very atmospheric photo of a time now almost half a century ago.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/03/13 – 16:47

Phil, the PD2 is one of Gateshead’s, they had the Newcastle Corporation destination layout rather than the standard NGT. The livery was a dark chocolate with cream centre band and also under the lower saloon windows, it was outlined in black and they had black wings. they looked superb, but it tended to fade rather quickly, and that made them look a bit drab.

Ronnie Hoye

24/03/13 – 16:48

With regards this posting by Ronnie of a Tynemouth Guy FT 7388, in which he mentions later, lightweight Orion bodies, not sure whether any had survived on Guy chassis.

Well, here is one that did, if only for a little while, seen here on some works contract when I stumbled across it in the Bromford Bridge area of Birmingham, one afternoon in the late sixties when I was working in that city. I recall it had the remains of “Northern” fleet names rather than Tynemouth, but it is the only shot I have of an Orion body on an exposed-radiator Guy chassis. I had always thought it was perhaps a rebodied older bus, a Utility even, perhaps not.

Rob Hancock

24/03/13 – 17:13

A superb photograph and wonderful commentary. To pick-up Phil’s point about the PD2 I would hazard a guess that the destination layout is that of Gateshead and District, but I am open to correction here.

Kevin Hey

This is all there is I’m afraid

24/03/13 – 17:40

Thanks Ronnie and Kevin for reminding me of Gateshead and District, especially of the livery, of which I’d all but forgotten. The number of operators in the Newcastle area with interestingly different liveries always made a visit worthwhile.
I also note in the latest inset shot confirming my Sunbeam Rapier identification, the rear of a 1956 Vauxhall Cresta, though the owner saved money by not opting for the contrasting second colour flash!

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/13 – 07:53

Yes, thanks Ronnie for confirming the destination layout on the PD2. It had never crossed my mind that Gateshead and District motorbuses had Newcastle Corporation-style destination indicator layout, well at least until the 30ft Titans and Atlanteans were taken into stock. The Newcastle destination layout was in fact the same as Huddersfield Corporation. This was introduced at Newcastle when Harry Godsmark became General Manager having previously been at Huddersfield. In the municipal sector there are quite a few examples of general managers introducing revised destination layouts to their new fleet based on the arrangements at their previous undertaking. The move by John C. Wake from St. Helens to Bradford is one example of this, although strangely he did not take the arrangement with him when he moved to Nottingham.
As Phil says the Tyneside area was always worth visiting on account of the various operators.

Kevin Hey

25/03/13 – 07:53

Phil, the Rapier is also a convertible. Quite rare, especially in northern climes!
Perhaps a little more commonly seen amongst Southdown Arab III’s, for example.

Eric Bawden

25/03/13 – 10:30

Absolutely Eric!

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/13 – 15:03

Ronnie Is this photograph taken on the Gt North Road at Barras Bridge? The dotted white line on the roadway curving to the lower left of the photograph is intriguing. Was this a guide line for drivers of Corporation trolleybuses, I wonder?
Phil/Eric If I only had my old copies of Observer’s Book of Automobiles! These books were superb for identifying cars and the variants!

Kevin Hey

25/03/13 – 15:58

Could be a clip from the 1961 film Payroll starring Michael Craig and Billie Whitelaw.

Roger Broughton

26/03/13 – 06:50

Yes, Kevin, the photographer would be standing with His/Her back to the South African War Memorial, if the bus had kept to the left it would have gone down Northumberland Street, which at that time was still the A1.

Phil, I knew I had a photo of one somewhere, it would have been taken from about the same place as the one of the Guy, but facing to the right. I think Gateshead had around 33 of these splendid all Leyland PD2’s, they were a mixture of both 8ft and 7ft 6", the later were for services over the High Level Bridge which at that time had width restriction, the Trolleybus is one of 70 similar to the London Q’s, this is one of the first batch of 20, the remainder had the same destination layout as the Leyland

Ronnie Hoye

26/03/13 – 06:51

Yes Kevin, I also had a couple of editions of the Observers books and whilst they did come in handy they also listed many Russian and other Eastern Bloc cars that you would never see on British roads, as well as many US and Australian cars that were unlikely to grace our highways. Happy days though!

Eric Bawden

26/03/13 – 06:51

Yes this is Barras Bridge between the university and the bus station.I worked at the then new Civic Centre, just opposite, in 1970-73 just as the area was trashed by the central motorway.So I was familiar with this scene and there were still a few interesting buses about, though sadly the trolleybuses were long gone.

David Rhodes

26/03/13 – 06:52

As a Weymann fan, especially this classic design, how many of you (like me) noticed that this is a 27′ long bus with longer rear upstairs windows. I think it makes a good design even better (balance and integrity). Morecambe had at least one Regent III like this (which I believe is preserved), Devon General had a number (one of which is reserved ?). How many more were there at 27′ – I don’t count the Bury examples because they were a transition to the Aurora and had a mix of designs?

David Oldfield

26/03/13 – 08:13

Thanks for the PD2 photo Ronnie. Re the trolleybus, I well remember these because, apart from visits with my Father when he was working, he had cousins in Walker and Denton. My earliest memory of those is of staying in an hotel in, I think, Denton with the trolleybuses parked in front.
Presumably this was the Denton terminus. As this was 1953 and I was around 6 at the time, the memory is hazy.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/03/13 – 10:53

Hard to imagine a better-looking bus than this very welcome posting of Ronnie’s. The dead-vertical, straight-sided radiator means business and the Weymann body looks as if had been sculpted from a block, rather than put together piece by piece. Before David O’s comment I hadn’t noticed that it was 27′ long. I don’t know how long these buses were in service, but with Guy-Gardner-Weymann quality they must have had a potential lifespan of 40-odd years. It’s a pity that changing needs and fashions cause such wastage.
Ronnie Hoye and Pete Davies’s mention of clutchless changes remind me of a day in 1968 when this trickery came in very handy. I was doing a short, quiet but hilly Thames Valley working northward from Reading to the Unicorn Inn at Kingwood Common, when at the bottom of Prospect Street, Caversham, the clutch pedal went to the floor. Luckily the Lodekka had a very nicely-mannered AVW engine with an extremely precise pump and no backlash in the transmission, so I reckoned that with the conductor’s permission we could soldier on, using the starter to get us rolling in first gear after each stop. He agreed and rang through to Lower Thorn Street to warn them that a replacement bus would be needed later.
Coming up to each stop where there was anyone to get on or off I dropped her into first for the last few yards and slowed to about one mph, and to our relief most people hopped on and off in paternoster-lift fashion. For old folk, of course, we came to a proper halt and restarted on the button. Not being able to change up out of first till the top of any real hill was an embarrassment, though on gentle slopes you could get up into second and beyond without risking a jerk.
I can’t remember whether we did the same on the way back, or whether they sent the replacement up to meet us. I’m grateful to a co-operative conductor and a beautifully-engineered vehicle for making possible an antic I wouldn’t dream of risking today!

Ian Thompson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

29/03/13 – 06:52

I once had a Fiat Uno whose clutch cable snapped. I drove it from my home in Chipping Sodbury to the garage in Bristol in the manner described by Ian – a bit hair-raising at times (with that gearing the starter would not have coped with any sort of gradient) but great fun. There are times when knowledge of crash gearboxes is very useful, even when you aren’t using a crash gearbox!

Peter Williamson

30/03/13 – 10:04

The very early Atlanteans we had at Godfrey Abbott (ex Ribble) were not fitted with an interlock on the gear change, it was perfectly possible, and by no means unusual to accidentally change down from fourth to first!! A sound that was like no other, before or since!!
Some of the early semi’s had a ring of differing colour round the speedo to show when to change gears. This device could also be seen on Leyland/BUT engined DMU’s of similar vintage (could the connection be "Self Changing Gears"? of which W. A. Stanier of duchess fame was a director)
Another excitement was with NCK 352 which used to stick on or about TDC, this bus had a large pair of Stilly’s as standard equipment! open bonnet, apply to nut on end of crankshaft, pull hard, then restart!!

Pete Bradshaw

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1957
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Willowbrook H35/28R

I think many of the job lot of anonymous photos I purchased must have come from the same source as the same locations crop up on a regular basis. Once again we are at the Whitley Bay Bandstand Terminus of the service 8 to North Shields Ferry Landing. Its been mentioned before about the amount of freedom Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries, and here we have a typical example. This is a 1957 H35/28R Willowbrook bodied Leyland PD2/12, one of 5 bought by Tynemouth and District, they were AFT 49/53 fleet numbers 219/23. About this time Northern ordered quite a number of PD2’s, 12 were rear door Park Royal’s originally for Sunderland District but diverted to Northern for use on longer routes shared with United, the remainder were Orion bodied, but as far as I’m aware these were the only Willowbrook bodied versions. The photo would be no earlier than about 1960 as by now the bus has been repainted and the top is red, where as it would have been cream when first delivered. They had the same O600 engine as the later PD3’s and were much lighter and far livelier, but they did bounce quite a lot, especially when running light. However, they had one big advantage over the PD3, a prayer book was not necessary as they were a lot less reluctant to stop when asked to do so.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

30/01/13 – 15:10

Nice view, Ronnie. Thanks for sharing. I agree entirely with your comments about the management style of the old Northern General. It continues today with the Go Ahead Group where, for example, it seems to be at the depot manager’s discretion whether the "We’re part of the Go Ahead Group" appears in the window or not. The opposite end of the scale when comparing with – certainly one of if not both – of the big groups based in Scotland!

Pete Davies

Copyright Unknown

Tynemouth and District
1938
Leyland Titan TD5
Weymann H??F

More from my youth. 98 was one of eight 1938 forward entrance Weymann bodied Leyland TD5’s delivered to the Northern General subsidiary of Tynemouth and District. They were FT 4496/4503 numbers 96/103. About 1950 in common with many pre war vehicles they were given a new lease of life and re bodied.

Copyright Unknown

100 is seen here with its second body, and you could be forgiven for asking how ECW bodies came to be in a BET fleet? Well in fact they’re Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R. I’m aware of one example of the type that’s still around, NVK 341 is a beautifully restored 1950 Newcastle Corporation AEC Regent 111 and has been featured on this site. I don’t know if the doors on the Weymann’s were powered or manual and almost certainly they would not have been equipped with heaters, but they seem to have been well ahead of their time. Does anyone know of any survivors?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

18/12/12 – 16:35

I am not familiar with Northern General, but the forward entrance Weymann body looks very much like the ones mounted on AEC Regent chassis for Midland General in the late 30s. I can remember travelling on one of these about 1953 on the C5 Alfreton to Nottingham route. I don’t think the sliding doors were powered. Trent also had some similar ones, but these were rebodied with conventional rear entrance Willowbrook bodies (lowbridge from memory) around 1950 I think. It’s remarkable to that immediately before WW2 Nottingham had three different operators with forward entrance double deckers – since Barton also had quite a lot of Leylands, some of them rebodies of older vehicles bought second hand. These were not Weymanns however.

Stephen Ford

19/12/12 – 07:32

I’m very pleased you mentioned those Stephen because one thing I noticed was that although the Trent and Midland General Regents both dated from 1937 and both were bodied by Weymann, they were somewhat different. The MGO bodies were basically same as the Tynemouth example above. The Trent examples had an odd, longer length second window bay which resulted in a much shorter rearmost side window on both decks. Also, the bulkhead under the canopy had a single window on the MGO vehicles whereas on the Trent ones, there were twin windows. So, it would seem that Weymann had more than one front entrance double deck design in production at the same time. It makes you wonder why certain operators preferred such subtle differences.

Chris Barker

19/12/12 – 07:32

Some very nice views there, Ronnie!

Pete Davies

19/12/12 – 08:45

Weymann were renown for their metal framed bodywork and classic designs. Pre-war, there were three separate products – Flexible, Coachbuilt and Metal. Coachbuilt approximated to the composite framework used by Charles H Roe up to 1968. The featured body is a composite body. Mansfield District/Midland General had both composite and metal bodies in the pre-war period.

David Oldfield

19/12/12 – 13:39

The first photograph – that’s an original, right ?

After classic coaches, the second love of my life is the amber nectar….I’m not a historian, but genuinely amazed that Carlsberg existed all those years ago and, even more amazement, they hoped to sell it in the North East in competition with Newcastle Brown !!

Stuart C

20/12/12 – 08:05

Stuart, according to the encyclopaedia website, that brewing company was founded in 1847, and now controls a fair number of brands. The list might make you weep into your drink but includes Tetley and Scottish & Newcastle . . .

Pete Davies

20/12/12 – 09:39

An equally surprising ‘brewing’ fact is that lager, per se, was so popular in an era when most folk seemed to drink ale, porter or mild and bitter. I’ve seen pre- 1914 adverts on trams for Tuborg lager and one, dated 1908, for ‘Alsopp’s British Lager’ To me, lager seemed to take off in the late 1950’s.

Chris Hebbron

20/12/12 – 09:43

Presumably you stuck your Carlsberg on a boat and just headed west. Do you notice that they were anxious to explain that Lager (or Pilsner if you not sure what to call the stuff although it was always a long way from Pilsn) was not just a cold summer drink…? They succeeded!

Joe

21/12/12 – 07:27

Unusual to see a bus that looked so good in both incarnations, though for sheer character I go for the front-entrance original. The nice lining-out and dignified fleet name are a fine finishing touch. Did Northern Coachbuilders build these ECW lookalikes on licence, or to order, or simply as the sincerest form of flattery? Their own designs always look very good to my eye as well.

Ian Thompson

21/12/12 – 10:40

Ian. An ECW man was enticed to NCB just before NCB’s major shareholder died and they were landed with crippling death duties which did for the company. This body is closer to ECW’s original than the Newcastle Regent III – which has slightly odd (uneven) bay spacing.

David Oldfield

22/12/12 – 14:55

I can remember seeing these front entrance double deckers on the Blyth – North Shields Ferry service 7 as a small boy around 1949-50 an once did a return trip on one accompanied by my aunt. These were very different to the usual AEC Regents allocated to this route.

Gerald Walker

07/11/14 – 06:19

I have enjoyed looking at the old photos I worked at Percy Main from 1963 until 1969 but I can not remember Ronnie Hoye but you sure know your buses.

Ray 33323

07/11/14 – 15:39

Ray, do you have a Brother called Brian, who was a fitter at Percy Main?

Ronnie Hoye

14/10/20 – 07:04

Regarding Ronnie Hoye’s observation on the re-bodying of Leyland TD5’s, I think he is wrong on this occasion. According to lthlibrary.org.uk they were given ECW bodies well before NCB came out with the new 8ft wide design in 1949/50. Below is the text pasted from the LTHL site.

"1938 Leyland TD5 No. 96 (FT4496) with original Weymann 55-seat forward entrance bodywork. It was re-bodied in 1948 by ECW with a 53-seat rear entrance body. (LTHL collection)."

Ray Jackson

16/10/20 – 06:10

Ray, I believe you are correct, In the Venture book about Northern Coachbuilders there is a photograph of one of these rebodies, that of FT 4500, complete with ECW makers label in the destination box. The photo is included to afford a comparison between the two products, ECW and NCB but it provides conclusive proof that the Tynemouth AECs were indeed bodied by ECW.

Chris Barker

17/10/20 – 06:19

That these vehicles were rebodied by ECW is confirmed by PSV Circle publications, which give the body numbers as ECW Series 2 nos. 2973-2980 (not in order) with 2973-6 being new in 10/48 and 2977-80 new in 12/48. However, there seems to be a doubt as to their seating. Fleet History PA6, which covers Tynemouth and District gives the seating split as L27/26R, although that is clearly wrong, as these were highbridge bodies, while Body List B1205 states that they were H30/26R, which was standard for this style of body. As the body list is a much more recent publication, it is, perhaps, more likely to be correct.

John Gibson

17/10/20 – 06:23

Before giving the wrong answer, Ronnie invited the question as to what ECW bodies were doing in a BET fleet, and that still stands. The answer is that the rebodying was completed by the end of 1948, and therefore would have been ordered long before ECW sales were restricted. Other non-Tilling operators for whom ECW were building at the time were Middlesbrough Corporation, Birch Bros and the Red & White group.

Peter Williamson

19/10/20 – 06:10

Following up Peter Williamson’s comment about ECW bodies supplied to non-Tilling companies, a quick trawl of "Bus lists on the Web" also shows substantial numbers of rebodying work on TD chassis for East Kent and Ribble, while Southdown took a batch of 25 PS1s with C31F bodywork, and Western Welsh took 62 PS1 with B35R bodywork, all in 1947. 4 similar buses went to Isle of Man Road Services in 1948. Southdown 1249 is seen at Bognor Depot in 1972 after conversion to a mobile left luggage office; IOMRS 57 in withdrawn condition at Ramsey in 1968.

Alan Murray-Rust

20/10/20 – 06:28

Not forgetting the batch of ECW bodied Leyland PD1s delivered to North Western in 1948 which were, in effect, lowbridge versions of the Tynemouth re-bodies, seen above.

Chris Barker

27/10/20 – 05:46

North Western was a rather different case, having been a Tilling company until 1942 and having not yet been forced to change its vehicle policy. Like some other Tilling companies, at that stage it only bought PD1s because Bristol could not build enough Ks to meet the demand.

Peter Williamson

29/10/20 – 06:15

A further comment on these rebodies, I recall them being used on service 5 between Newcastle and Whitley Bay (Cemetery). Tynemouth seemed to allocate batches of vehicles to specific routes. Another batch of vehicles were AEC Regents with NCB bodies of the earlier pre-ECW look-a-like design, these being used on service 7 between North Shields Ferry and Blyth, while my earliest memory of service 4 (Whitley Bay to Gateshead) was of the Pickering bodied Guys. That route, which was later renumbered 1 seemed to be allocated batches of new vehicles displacing earlier vehicles to other routes. I have a vague recollection that the1955 batch of Weymann Orion bodied Guys were initially used on the 1/4 before ending up on the 5 replacing the TD5s, not as far as I was concerned a change for the better.

John Gibson

01/11/20 – 06:03

John, the Weymann Orion bodied GUY Arabs (two batches of them) were sturdy and robust, typical of GUY’s.
That said, the bodies were rubbish, and soon gained the nickname of Rattletraps.

Ronnie Hoye