Copyright Pete Davies

Pennine Motor Services
1962
Leyland Leopard
Duple DP41F

Here is a photo of 5895 YG, Leyland Leopard with Duple body, in the fleet of Pennine Motor Services, then in Gargrave. I took the photo in Morecambe in June 1970. Note the SALOPIA vehicle alongside.
This vehicle was the last of four of this style, the other three being on Tiger Cubs UWX 277, 6108 WU and 9712 WX, so close inspection shows subtle changes over the years. The next new addition was 240 CWY, which Roger Cox posted elsewhere on the site a while ago.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

15/08/12 – 08:06

Herewith the conundrum as to what constitutes a C or a DP. Yelloway thought they were too bus like and only bought one batch but most things, including the entrance door, make this look more like a C than a DP. The same thing befell the Sheffield Transport Leopard/Burlinghams which were DP because they were based on a modified bus design rather than the Seagull – but they were really just as much coaches as their Weymann Fanfare and ECW contemporaries.

David Oldfield

15/08/12 – 11:34

Interesting point, David. From an operational point of view, the issue of whether a vehicle was a C or a DP generally depended on three factors: use, seating and livery. As OMO became more prevalent, provincial operators realised that front entrances enabled relatively easy and cheaper downgrading, especially if the eventual fate of new vehicles was considered when they were bought.
As for external appearance, a sensitive compromise was needed: too bus like, and passengers might feel they were being offered second best if they expected a coach; too coach like could mean problems displaying stage carriage destinations later in life.

Roy Burke

15/08/12 – 11:55

I’m not sure if it was still known as the ‘Donnington’ by this time but it definitely improved with age (like we do!) When it was first introduced, it had too many shallow side windows, perhaps a throwback to the old ‘Roadmaster’ design. This one, with just five deeper side windows is a great improvement and looks very nice. Yelloways were of the original design which would explain why they didn’t like them!

Chris Barker

15/08/12 – 14:47

The screen and front dome of the Donnington were shared with contemporary Willowbrook Viscount (cf Devon General). [Interesting how Duple recycled two Willowbrook names – Viceroy and Viscount.]

David Oldfield

15/08/12 – 14:48

The five bay version was known as the Donington 2 and was used by, among others, MacBraynes. I produced a resin kit of it in fact!
The design was built by the Duple Midland operation and was effectively superseded by the Britannia, which was very popular and shared the same front grille mouldings.

Andrew Goodwin

16/08/12 – 07:33

The correct spelling is Donington with one "n" – the body was named after the Donington Park motor-racing circuit close to the Duple Midland works in Loughborough. Donnington with "two ns" is in Shropshire.
As you say this version of the Donington (actually its third incarnation since the first prototype was built in 1956 – the first version was built from 1957-58 and lacked the "chain" motif in the front panel) is by far the most attractive due to the deeper windows.
I’m left a bit confused by the comment that "the Donington was replaced by the Britannia". The Britannia design was first introduced in 1956 and the last were produced in 1962, the same year in which the Donington was deleted from the Duple catalogue. Both models were replaced for the 1963 season by a choice of either the (Hendon built) Commodore or (Blackpool built) Commander. Dual purpose options then became the preserve of the Willowbrook subsidiary and were built to "BET standard" design.

Neville Mercer

16/08/12 – 14:24

Yes Neville, I assumed that the draughtsmen who wrote "Donington" on the drawings knew what they were doing!
I didn’t actually say it was replaced by the Britannia but my choice of words was perhaps unfortunate. What I meant to convey was the relative popularity of the Britannia as against the Donington leaving the latter with fewer sales.
As you will no doubt tell us there were at least three versions of the Britannia as well!
Reference the comment above about Willowbrook model names being recycled, Park Royal also did this with the name Royalist though the second version was anything but successful, not helped by being initially built on a second-string chassis rather than a front line player.

Andrew Goodwin

17/08/12 – 07:07

You’re quite right, Andrew, there were several versions of the Britannia. The original version, brought to market in 1956 to replace the Elizabethan, had a curved waist-rail and introduced the "chain motif" to the Duple range. All of this first version had front entrances, but were offered alongside the Britannic which had a central entrance and retained more of the styling of the Elizabethan. The Britannic was quietly dropped from the catalogue in 1957 and few were sold.
The second version of the Britannia formed part of a new range of designs exhibited at the 1958 CMS at Earls Court and shared many components with the new version of the Super Vega built on Bedford SB chassis. Basically similar bodies (but at that stage nameless) were also offered on Ford and Commer chassis. As far as I can tell from my own records the Mk II Britannia was only available with a front entrance at first, but from 1960 onwards a new central entrance design with a much more curved profile at the front end was also offered. The most famous of these were probably the examples operated by Samuelsons in London and St Helens Corporation.
There were minor detail changes to both front and central entrance versions in 1961, but you really have to look hard to see the difference – a tiny destination blind incorporated into the front bumper is the most visible clue.
By 1962 orders for both Britannias and for the Donington had reduced to a trickle due to competitive pressure from the much more stylish offerings from Plaxton and Harrington. Duple realised that it was losing its share of the heavyweight coach market, dumped the Britannia, Donington, Willowbrook Viking and Viscount, and the entire sadly bastardised Burlingham range from the catalogue, and replaced the lot with the Commander (with vertical window pillars) and the short-lived Commodore (with a "Bella" style raked back pillar towards the rear).
Sorry to go on, but as you might have noticed I have a thing about pre-1965 coach designs!

Neville Mercer

17/08/12 – 07:08

David and Roy have a valid point. Shortly after I joined Armstrong Galley ‘the coaching division of T&W PTE’ we took delivery of 15 Leyland Leopards GBB 985/999N fleet numbers 85/99 – 86/95 were 53 seaters with DP doors, but still had the comfort and overall look of a coach, and 96/99 were 45 seaters with coach doors, However, 85 was a totally different animal, it was in actual fact the first Alexander ‘T’ type ‘rumour has it that one or two of the Scottish bus group companies weren’t too pleased about it going to T&W’ but back to the plot, the vehicle itself was first class, but with the best will in the world it was a bus with coach seats. A/G did quite a lot of hire work for National Travel,and a fair amount of contract work, so 85 was always first choice for that, it was later transferred to the stage carriage fleet, and I think it was sold on after that

Ronnie Hoye

Sorry, should have said that the 14 coaches were Duple bodied

17/08/12 – 07:11

Externally all forms of the Donington look like buses to me, except when dolled up with Britannia/Vega trim, as here //sct61.org.uk/  It’s amazing what a few bits of metal and an association of ideas can do!

Peter Williamson

21/08/12 – 07:41

Castle Donington (one n in the middle!). The village has long suffered having people mis-spell its name, just as many folk think it is in Derbyshire because of the postal address, but it is in Leicestershire.
The Duple Donington body. Duple purchased the business of Nudd Brothers and Lockyer in 1952, renaming it Duple (Midland) Motor Bodies. Nudd’s premises were a hanger on the former Castle Donington airfield, now East Midlands Airport. Nudd had experience of metal framed bodywork, hence the Duple interest and the name of the design of the Duple metal framed body. The technology of the time may have resulted in the rather angular design and the small windows used at first.

Mr Anon

01/08/14 – 16:29

I found the comment on ‘DP’ v ‘C’ interesting, as I’ve never been quite sure where the difference lay, and there are clearly several ‘grey areas’. One of my main questions is how the Ribble PDR1 ‘White Lady’ Atlanteans justify the designation ‘coach’, at least among enthusiasts. The roughly contemporary Leopards with BET-style bodies by Marshall and MCW are always referred to as ‘DP’, though in terms of comfort, style or usage there was little to distinguish them from the Altlanteans; if anything the Leopards were marginally more coach-like internally and ventured further afield. But both types were effectively buses fitted with headrest seats and luggage racks, and consequently had the claustrophobic feel of being packed with a lot of stuff that they were not really designed for. Both were mainly used on relatively short inter-urban express services, at least one of which (the X43 Manchester-Skipton) was actually a stage carriage route at its country end. Doses it really just boil down to the double-deckers’ almost all-ivory livery, compared with rather more red on the saloons? But then in NBC days the Atlanteans (by then well past their unimpressive best) were given service bus livery, while the Leopards got the DP treatment! Was it just that the Atlanteans hijacked the justified ‘C’ designation of their upmarket cousins, the ‘Gay Hostesses’? And as for the earlier generation of Titan ‘White Ladies’ — though admittedly I’m too young to remember very much about them — how could anything lowbridge ever really be called a coach, however much chrome you put on the outside?

Keith

15/10/19 – 05:48

This coach finished it’s day parked along the workshop at Berresford Motors Limited in the role of mess room. I believe it was still in situ when the business was sold to PMT.

Leekensian

Copyright John Stringer

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1958
Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster
Plaxton Consort Mk.II C41C

In the mid 1950’s Leyland abandoned their heavyweight underfloor-engined Royal Tiger model in favour of the very much lighter Tiger Cub. Most export customers however required something rather more substantial, so the opportunity was taken to revamp the old Royal Tiger into a longer and even heavier duty chassis to meet their needs. So was born the Royal Tiger Worldmaster. Where the old model had only a manual gearbox option, the new one had only Pneumo-Cyclic transmission as standard.
It, along with its integral equivalent the Olympic II, went on to be – undoubtedly in my mind – the most successful model Leyland ever built.
Some home market customers still looked towards something with more clout than the Tiger Cub, and a 30ft. version to suit home market requirements was introduced – the RT3/1 bus and RT3/2 coach.
Glasgow bought a large batch of the bus version in 1956, and my own local operator – Halifax Corporation – took nine in 1958, but here climbing Bradford Road out of Stump Cross near my then home is SDK 442, a 1958 Plaxton Consort-bodied RT3/2 coach of Ellen Smith’s Tours, of Rochdale.
One of two with Smith’s, it was later rebodied with a Plaxton Panorama Elite body – surviving until the company eventually sold out, and now preserved.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

10/08/12 – 07:13

Very nice, John! I have read somewhere – but can’t lay my hands on it at present – that the "leaping tiger" logo of the Royal Tiger was based on the Ellen Smith logo which, in turn, had been inspired by a picture on a card such as used to be included in cigarette packets.

Pete Davies

10/08/12 – 07:14

A superb vehicle owned by a superb operator which offered a quality friendly service of excursions and tours from my childhood home town of Rochdale. Every other Saturday during the rugby season I would travel on an Ellen Smiths coach to Rochdale Hornets away games. Each coach had a dedicated driver who took pride in the appearance of his own vehicle. While SDK 442 was around at that time we usually travelled by one of the later Harrington Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards but I did travel on SDK after it was rebodied.
I believe Ellen Smiths had dispensation from Leyland to use their ‘pouncing tiger’ badge as it’s fleet logo which can just be seen on the photo on the side of the coach. Perhaps someone can confirm or otherwise.

Philip Halstead

Further to my earlier post, I have found my source and can answer Philip thus, and I quote from Eric Ogden’s history of the operator, page 9:
"The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland."
I hope this helps!

Pete Davies

10/08/12 – 10:47

Is this the Tiger in question www.flickr.com/photos/

John Darwent

10/08/12 – 13:47

Yes, John D, that is the tiger. It always faces "forward" on the side of the vehicle. That on the Leyland badge goes to the viewer’s right which suggests to me that they used the one from the offside of an Ellen Smith coach.

Pete Davies

Yes that’s the Tiger logo and thanks for clarifying the tie up with the Leyland badge.
To conclude the Ellen Smiths story, Harry Smith sold out to Rossendale Transport on retirement and the new owners ran the business as a separate entity for some years. The red and white livery and name were retained. I left the area shortly after and am not sure if the name still survives.

Philip Halstead

11/08/12 – 07:35

Mention of Harry Smith reminded me when I drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. We frequently went on hire to Ellen Smith. We were given a reporting time by Harry who was quite pedantic about this time. If we were due to report say at 8 a.m. he told us we were not to arrive before the stated time or else. As we had come via the M62 we often had to sit and wait just up the road and then arrive as if we had come nonstop. I was always interested in the withdrawn vehicles that were dumped at the back of the garage.

Philip Carlton

12/08/12 – 07:23

Just a point to ponder. Was there something in the water in Rochdale. Not one, not two but three top notch operators. Yelloway, Ellen Smith and the Corporation.

David Oldfield

12/08/12 – 14:43

David, probably a matter of what wasn’t in the water. The stuff down here in Hampshire is nothing like the real stuff off the Pennines!

Pete Davies

12/08/12 – 17:38

It’s that Legionella bacteria what gives Pennines water its bite!

Chris Hebbron

13/08/12 – 08:44

Did Legionella give rise to one of Harrington’s biggest mistakes?

David Oldfield

13/08/12 – 08:45

The Ellen Smith name still survives. The coaches are now all black with an orange and white tigers head and large stylised tiger stripes. The tiger theme is used in marketing with their loyalty card and a range of excursions. There is a picture on Flickr of one of their coaches at: www.flickr.com/photos/ 

David Slater

13/08/12 – 11:29

…..and the Ellen Smith Flickr group has pictures of this vehicle with it’s Elite body (as a museum exhibit) and also of ODK, rebodied in the sixties as a Panorama, in service.

David Oldfield

14/08/12 – 06:47

Nice one, David O!
Was Ellen Smith the name of the woman who started up the company, or what is the origin of this name?

Chris Hebbron

15/08/12 – 08:04

Yes, Mrs Smith’s first name was Ellen and she seems to have founded this element of the family’s interests.

Pete Davies

10/10/12 – 13:30

Philip, just read your comments about the late Harry Smith.
You mention Stanley Gath. You might remember Stanley invited a group of Ellen Smith drivers to a "Yorkshire Coach Drivers" social evening in Ravensthorpe near Dewsbury (1966). We hired a coach from a Mr. Norman Fletcher (Harry would’t let us have one) and drove across to Ravensthorpe and as I remember we had a very enjoyable night.
The outcome of this though was that for the next four years we at Ellen Smith decided to hold our own "Lancashire Coach Drivers" social evening at the end of the season. All due to Stanley Gaths hospitality in the first place.

Douglas Neal

25/10/12 – 07:10

Harry did not sell out he died Eric sold to Rossendale

Smiths Driver

11/09/13 – 08:30

My name is Helen Morris and Eric Smith was my grandad. Its great to see that people are still interested in Ellen Smith. To answer some of your questions:
1. the company was founded by Eric’s grandmother Ellen Smith using money from taking in washing/sewing.
2. Originally the company owned trucks that delivered goods during the week and could be converted for passengers at the weekend.
3. Eric worked for the family business for most of his life up to the late 90’s when he retired due to ill health, specifically lung cancer. He died in October 2000.
4. I was always told that the tigers were hand painted on by my uncle Jack Mills based on a picture on a cigarette pack.
I hope this helps.

Helen Morris

12/09/13 – 08:30

Thank you Helen, for adding to the information we hold. Do you have a photo of any older company buses that you think we’d like to see?

Chris Hebbron

25/09/13 – 18:23

Chris, here’s one of Ellen Smith’s early vehicles:- www.flickr.com/photos/ There are more if you follow through on Ellen 137’s photostream.

David Williamson

04/11/13 – 16:55

Having worked for the Accountants of Ellen Smiths the books were always spot on and Eric and Harry were controlled by I think it was Margery !! I have in my possession the original cast iron company seal of Ellen Smith (Tours) Limited which was being discarded when the Company was taken over. If anyone wants this piece of history please let me know through the site.

P Curran

05/11/13 – 10:17

I would suggest the Manchester Museum of Transport would be a good home for the seal. They even have an Ellen Smith’s coach – the one above no less with its later body! I can help arrange if necessary.

David Beilby

06/04/14 – 08:17

Two points, the Halifax Worldmasters were incredibly slow vehicles, all the more surprising given the engine size. I would prefer to wait 5 minutes extra and catch the Hebble and still be in Northowram quicker than a Worldmaster. Also they had awful tin can Weymann bodies, so I really hated them!
Second, does anyone know why Ripponden & District (coaches) and Ellen Smith both had the same, or similar, logo’s of the Tiger?

John

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/06/16 – 12:09

I remember both these coaches parked up at the side of the office back in the mid 70s. They were in a far sorrier state. I played in them quite a few times. There were always feral cats giving birth to kittens. As I got older, early teens I was paid by the drivers to clean the coaches when they came back. Good happy years they used to take me everywhere.
So glad to see them in lovely working condition. Thanks for reminding me.

Vincent Tolan

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Southdown Motor Services
1962
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT
Weymann C49F

A few weeks ago this photograph arrived in my inbox with no senders name no e-mail address and not a word of comment. Well as it is a good colour shot of a very nice vehicle and from a southern operator which I would like more of to make the site more balanced I decided to post it.
Checking into the information embedded in the jpg file it states that the shot was taken at the Southdown depot on Hyde Park Road, Portsmouth. Having just been for a drive down Hyde Park Road courtesy of Google street view I don’t think it is there anymore. The Southdown fleet unfortunately did not enter into my spotting days, way out of my area, so only know what most people have read. Anyway I still think it was worth posting, thanks for the shot Mr Anon.

Photograph Mr Anon – Copy Peter

07/08/12 – 14:44

Sorry if I offend anyone, but to me this just doesn’t look right. For my money the fanfare was a classic, but this looks as if one has been been decapitated and repaired in a hurry with whatever could be found lying around, from this angle the back window and the trim under the side ones look very Harrington like, and the end result is neither one thing or another, perhaps a bit more of the darker shade of green above and below the windows and also in the trim on the front may have made a difference. No doubt someone will shoot me down in flames, but that’s just my opinion.

Ronnie Hoye

07/08/12 – 17:40

Was this body style unique to Southdown? Never mind about the shape, just look at the livery – it oozes quality!

Ian Wild

07/08/12 – 17:49

Southdown operated 20 of these PSU3/3RT Leopards with Weymann ‘Castillion’ bodywork. They were delivered in 1962/3. The first 5 were as illustrated, and the final 15 had longer side windows, which improved the appearance somewhat. Not as pretty as the Harrington Cavalier or Grenadier though!

Here is a shot of this superbly restored Harrington bodied example. The bodywork is a short ‘Grenadier’ as opposed to the earlier Cavalier.
This example was delivered in 1964, and was fitted with 28 seats in 2+1 configuration for Southdown’s Coach Cruises.

Roy Nicholson

08/08/12 – 07:23

I have to agree with Ronnie. It doesn’t look right. I have it on one side of my screen as I type this, together with a view of XUF141 taken at Wisley. XUF141 is, clearly, one of the shorter Leopards with Weymann body (Fanfare?) but, to me, this shows definite traces of Harrington. Hybrid, anyone???

Pete Davies

08/08/12 – 07:24

This is a Grenadier 3110 with a Cavalier front.

Philip Lamb

08/08/12 – 07:25

I see Ronnie’s point of view but the design does have some character and certainly looks a solid job. It seems to me that the front line bus body builders never seemed to quite hit it off when moving to building coaches. They always ended up with a dual-purpose look about them, like a ‘flashy’ bus. The Weymann Fanfare was an exception but does anyone remember those unhappy efforts East Lancs made at building coaches for Accrington and Widnes. At least they had the good grace to stick to buses after that!

Philip Halstead

08/08/12 – 07:26

Although the photo of 1156 was not my submission, I thought you might like sight of 1157, another of the same batch, but this time in the livery of Southdown subsidiary Triumph Coaches.
I took the photo in July 1967, on the parking area adjacent to Southdown’s Hyde Park Road, Portsmouth premises.

Bob Gell

08/08/12 – 07:27

Ronnie,
Yes, you’ve guessed – I like it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder – which is why I guess Southdown purchased them . . . unless Weymann offered a cheaper "look-a-like-Harrington-style" than Harrington could offer. Those windscreens look identical to those on Bradford’s 256-270/286-300 batches of MCW-bodied Atlanteans (and "Manchester"-style bodies elsewhere?). Anyway, I prefer the smooth roof-line of the "Castllian" to the stepped roof-line of the Harrington offering, which . . .
Roy
Has a Cavalier front panel . . . why? Why not just produce a short Grenadier, full stop?? Did Southdown request this bastardisation, and why??? Perhaps because it looks better . . .

Philip Rushworth

08/08/12 – 08:46

Philip,
All of Southdown’s Grenadier’s had Cavalier front panels, so I suspect it was a matter of standardisation. Southdown were renowned for specifying follow on batches in similar body styles to previous batches……….Probably to disguise the age of older vehicles before the days of ‘Paddy plates’

Roy Nicholson

08/08/12 – 08:47

First an apology for the fact that the photo arrived without the text, at the time I was having a self inflicted problem connecting the two.
In answer to the comments made yes these vehicles were unique to Southdown and the second batch of 15 No’s 1160-1174 with the longer side windows did look infinitely better sleeker and more elegant (a personal view I know) this batch also lacked the perspex lights in the front dome which tidied up the looks.

Here are some B/W photos of 1160 at a very wet 1963 Brighton coach rally, this particular vehicle was also on the Weymann stand at the 1962 Earls Court show.
Regarding Hyde Park Road the name was changed in the early 70’s to Winston Churchill Avenue and the depot name changed at the same time

Diesel Dave

08/08/12 – 15:08

A lovely batch of photos for me to enjoy, especially the Triumph one, which bring back Southsea memories. Certainly the later ones with fewer windows look sleeker.

Chris Hebbron

09/08/12 – 07:13

Are there any photos of the Accrington or Widnes coaches mentioned above?

Jim Hepburn

09/08/12 – 07:14

Apologies to Pete Davies for being picky but XUF 141 No 1141 like all Southdown’s Fanfares was on a Tiger Cub chassis. As Philip says the Castillians look a solid job and indeed they were just that and very pleasant coaches to drive, I drove for Southdown from 1969-91 at Eastbourne depot where at different times we had No’s 1160/61/62/65 all of which were among the six with only 45 seats which were low backed and leather covered in two tone green the rest were 49 seaters, 1156-59 the short window batch had high backed moquette covered similar to the Fanfares so were not as light and airy inside. These coaches looked and drove very much better than the following batches of Plaxton bodies.

Diesel Dave

09/08/12 – 07:14

Following the demise of Southdown’s favoured coachbuilder Beadle, the company switched allegiance to Weymann acquiring 35 Fanfare-bodied Leyland Tiger Cubs, bringing it more into line with contemporary BET preferences. The arrival, however, of the more powerful L2 Leopard and the availability of Harrington’s Cavalier prompted Southdown to renew its ageing coach cruise fleet with a batch of 43 vehicles of this combination in 1961/62, supplemented by a pair of Cavalier-bodied PSU3/3RT 36-footers. The same year saw the arrival of the initial five Castillians (clearly a relative of the Fanfare), also on PSU3/3RT chassis, of which three were allocated to Triumph, entered service the same year. These five coaches are sometimes wrongly described as 36ft-long Fanfares. That particular animal was never built, and if it had have been, would have looked quite different. A Fanfare stretched to 34ft and heightened to 11ft 9in was built on an LHD Worldmaster chassis in 1956 as an export demonstrator. No orders were received and the sole example, given the name Arcadian, was exported to Spain. What is more interesting about this coach is that it featured three ‘panoramic’ side windows with no ventilators — two years before the arrival of Plaxton’s Panorama! The Castillian, on the other hand, in both short- and long-window form was in the main a new design. It only found favour with Southdown probably as a follow on to its Fanfare fleet, The 15 long-window Castillians, which I agree make for a better looking coach, were also improved by their lack of ventilators, and would have looked even better in Triumph colours . . .

Philip Lamb

09/08/12 – 11:19

No offence taken, Dave! I’ve amended my records. Southdown is a foreign fleet to me . . .

Pete Davies

09/08/12 – 18:17

Granted the later version with the larger windows does look better, but it still looks like a racehorse designed by a committee. Harrington? yes – Weymann? yes but not a hybrid of the two.

Ronnie Hoye

09/08/12 – 18:18

Jim,
You’ll find a Widnes example at www.flickr.com/photos/

Mike Grant

11/08/12 – 07:09

Been away for a while, hence my silence. Back to quality over appearance – which is why Southdown probably bought them. I agree, generally, with others. I am a Fanfare fan and think the later long windowed Castillians work better.
Shortly after, Weymanns closed down and all production went to Birmingham and the newly formed MCW. Now the Topaz really was a visual dog. The later "Metropolitan" coaches were a little better – but only available on Fords and Bedfords. Some were sub-contracted to Strachans. Am I right in thinking that Starchans also produced some Orions? On sub-contract?

David Oldfield

11/08/12 – 12:02

Nice to see you’re back, David, and that you remain concentrated on the quality/performance/appearance theme. Keep watching, ‘cos your sharp and informed observations, (especially about AEC), are always worth reading.
It may be that quality influenced Southdown, but with due respect to Weymann, I can’t think that could have been a determining factor in a comparison with, say, Harrington. Nor, I suspect, would price, because although price was important, Southdown depreciated their fleet over 12 years, which minimised the effect of small price differences. Availability may have ben a factor, but it may just have been a matter of preference – beauty in the eye of the beholder again. Southdown’s choice of Queen Mary double-deckers, which many enthusiasts admire greatly, was not all that popular elsewhere. It was largely a matter of consistent overall fleet image as perceived by top management.
I found Diesel Dave’s driving experiences interesting, too. I never drove a Southdown Plaxton – only a Castillian, which, (you may like this, David), I didn’t think was a patch on M&D’s Reliances.

Roy Burke

12/08/12 – 07:13

Thanks for your kind comments Roy but, including yourself, I am by no means the only expert on this forum. There are no doubt many others who could claim that laurel. Your observations are equally on target.
A few observations. The Cavalier was a big improvement on its predecessor, possibly, therefore a holding pattern before the arrival of the Cavalier. ….. also, were they comparing metal frames on the Weymann bodies with composite on the Harrington? Finally, the rear end of the Castillian still looks like a rip off of the Cavalier – so which did, indeed, come first?

David Oldfield

19/03/13 – 07:20

Sometime in the early 1970s Hyde Park Road in Portsmouth was remodelled with some of it being renamed Winston Churchill Avenue. I was working at Yelloway at the time and, through our joint operator Associated Motorways (of which Southdown was a member), we were asked to include an extra note in the timetable for the Rochdale-Portsmouth/Southsea service for a couple of seasons which read something like ‘Winston Churchill Avenue Coach Station was previously known as Hyde Park Road Coach Station’. I called there once when passing through on holiday and I have a vague recollection of the coach station building standing all alone in quite a wide open space of redevelopment.

David Slater

19/03/13 – 11:46

You’re quite right, David, but calling it a coach station was stretching the imagination! It was a nondescript depot building with a storage yard and lots of bombsite land around it on which to park all the vehicles. The depot was not mentioned on blinds, merely ‘PORTSMOUTH – HYDE PARK ROAD’. Summertime, Southdown/Triumph coaches were stored there ready for the seafront tours.

Chris Hebbron

21/03/13 – 10:55

I can well imagine the poor state of the property Chris! Regarding the location. A comment on Flickr from ‘PD3’, a person who has taken lots of photos of Southdown vehicles including some Harrington Cavaliers parked around the Hyde Park Road garage, reads ‘The [Ibis] Hotel would have been next door to where the depot was, the land now has a building used by Portsmouth University upon it’.
Some of his photos at Hyde Park Road, which feature buildings in the background, include: //www.flickr.com/photos/one  
Without realising it, I already had a photo on Flickr of the timetable for the Summer 1973 joint Yelloway/Associated Motorways Rochdale-Portsmouth/Southsea service which features the statement ‘Winston Churchill Avenue Coach Station was previously known as Hyde Park Road Coach Station’ //www.flickr.com/photos/two

David Slater

02/02/14 – 16:21

With regard to Chris Hebbron’s comment about Southdown/Triumph coaches being parked at Hyde Park Rd ready for Excursions, that is not really correct as the Triumph fleet was permanently based there, including the 3 Weymann-bodied Leopards. Had you visited on a Saturday/Sunday you would have found very few coaches there as they were either in the North (mainly) of England having worked Forces leave services on Friday evening, returning overnight on Sunday. While away from Portsmouth, they worked on the Saturday for local operators, so that fore example a coach working to Leeds on Friday would then be ‘on hire’ to West Yorkshire and work from Leeds to Scarborough or perhaps Morecambe on the Saturday.

Paul Statham

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

31/08/17 – 05:00

One thing one has to admit about the Harrington bodies was that they remained rattle free long after others had deteriorated. 1750, shown above, was most famous for being ‘The Albion Car’, piloted by Bert ‘Crasher’ Mills for the Brighton football team.
Having renamed Hyde Park Road in the early ’70s, I well remember an indignant patriot sending in a complaint to Southdown House in Brighton. All that could be squeezed into the destination box was ‘Portsmouth W C’hill Ave’ and our complainant was incensed that our wartime leader had been reduced to ‘W C’hill’.

Nick Turner