Barton Transport
1957
Leyland Tiger PS1/B
Willowbrook L61RD

This evocative shot was taken at the 2011 Heart of the Pennines event, and shows the splendid Willowbrook-bodied Tiger rebuild of 1957 arriving at The Piece Hall in Halifax. Not only did it look great, it sounded great too. Barton’s wonderful fleet had many of these rebuilds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

31/05/13 – 06:40

And luckily Les, we have the sound of one of them right here on this site. Time for another listen on the ‘Old Bus Sounds’ page!

Chris Barker

31/05/13 – 07:00

Yes, the Barton rebuilds, the Willowbrook batch were modern-looking with clean lines, but then, see how the rear wheels were set well in, betraying their 7`6 heritage. Looking around inside, they were obviously an economy product – very basic lightweight construction and lots of brown paint, but surely that was their specification and in that respect they delivered. I first encountered this one parked outside Loughborough Central station years ago, and was amazed to realise it had survived, a Barton rebuild!!
Never thought I would see one again.

Later, I encountered it again, and I attach one of my pics, here at the LVVS open day in November 2010, where it was a regular performer on trips into Lincoln City Centre but here parked among representatives of many past decades. Needless to say, I contrived to be aboard for some of these journeys, and the sound effects revived old memories. On the straight sections, it managed to trigger off the 30mph warning signs.

Rob Hancock

31/05/13 – 17:58

Was the need for the extra short top deck bay structural as it spoils an otherwise well balanced design?

Phil Blinkhorn

31/05/13 – 17:59

I recall about 1964 one of these was hired for an evening educational visit from Long Eaton Grammar School to Breedon on the Hill, out beyond Castle Donington on the old A453. It was a novel experience, as the arched 13ft 9in headroom railway bridge at Sawley Junction (now Long Eaton) station precluded the use of double deckers on the service buses (3, 3C, 10 and 11) that went in that direction. [Most of you will know that the experimental lowbridge layout Dennis Loline 861HAL was a bid to overcome this obstacle, but as even 861 had to take the centre of the road to clear the bridge, its use in service was not permitted – otherwise, who knows, there might have been a fleet of them.] Anyway, back to the Tiger rebuild, our trip left Long Eaton by Derby Road to Breaston, where it turned sharp left over the Old Sawley level crossing, to reach the A453 after a detour of 2 or 3 miles.

Stephen Ford

01/06/13 – 06:23

Phil, I tend to agree with you about the extra short bay spoiling the balance of the design. These vehicles were built to PS1 length and no doubt Willowbrook used their standard length window bays and needed to stick in an extra bit to make up the greater length. The following batch however were bodied by Northern Counties to a nice four bay design and looked much neater. I liked them both though and I had some memorable journeys on them in the early 1970’s on the X42 Derby – Nottingham express via the A52 by-pass!

Chris Barker

24/08/13 – 06:17

I was looking through Eddie Collings collection of photos for something and came across the above shot. It is WAL 782 not in Barton livery, it is in preservation and looking at other shots it is at a rally, more than likely down south with the Hastings trolleybus behind it. Was it in service with another operator between Barton and preservation this may explain the different livery.

Peter

29/04/14 – 08:20

These PD1s were always second rate vehicles, still at school l travelled on one on its maiden voyage, school run, later l worked for Barton Transport Ltd and sad to say 6 weeks redundancy under Trent, urrgh, l was in the engine shop, l was for along time oil engineer (oil changes) l got top money for an unskilled job, but l could do breakdowns recovery the best later on nights running repairs emergency PSV driving, recovery and breakdowns, local and distance, l done the very last run to Skegness with a decker 823, a PD2, l hate the day Trent took us over the family and staff did not want it, have many things to remember it by and my full uniform still fits,

Bill Redfern

29/04/14 – 16:45

A (very) belated reply to Peter’s query on intermediate owners of WAL 782.
According to the PSVC fleet history, 782 was sold to Ensign in 1974; then to Williams, Llangollen, Hollis Queensferry and Cross Roads Travel, Warrington in fairly quick time, before passing to preservationists in Kent in 1978, moving within preservation by 1996 in the Medway area. In recent years it was owned by Quantock MS; I believe it is currently owned by the Barton family, as part of their collection.

Bob Gell

30/04/14 – 07:22

It looks as if it could have been in poppy red and white. Heaven forbid!

Chris Barker

25/05/14 – 14:41

I’ve been going through the "Past Comments" and found this entry which I seem to have missed previously. I note comments about her history. Above is a view of her with Durrant, Sidcup, whilst in the Southsea Spectacular on 8 June 1980. Relax, folks, not poppy red as Chris feared! I believe she was actually new to Bolton Corporation, before her time with Barton.

Pete Davies

25/05/14 – 17:41

The only information I have managed to unearth on the net says that the chassis of WAL 782 was new in 1948 to Knowles & Son of Bolton, registered CWH 262, carrying a Santus C33F coach body. One of the sources is the Classic Bus Website, which is reasonably trustworthy.
The chassis is given as PS1/1 – does PS1/B (top of this page) indicate a Barton rebuild? If so, whose designation is it? I haven’t come across any suggestion that Barton used the vehicle in its coach form, but someone with a Barton fleet history should be able to say one way or the other.

David Call

30/05/14 – 13:04

The Circle fleet history of Barton confirms David’s information above – new in 1/48 as CWH 262 to Knowles of Bolton, with a Santus C33F body; to Enterprise Motors (Blackpool) Ltd in 5/53; then to Goulding and Smyth, Hooton, Cheshire and to Millburn Motors, Preston (dealer), who sold it to Barton. I doubt if it ran for Barton as acquired – more likely it was simply a source of a chassis for rebodying.
According to Alan Oxley’s book on Barton, relaxation of the double deck length to 30 feet allowed PS1 chassis from 27’6” to be rebuilt as double deckers and comply with regulations. He also states 782 and others, were standard Leyland PS1 products, which Barton coded for their own reference as PS1/B. The Circle fleet history records the chassis number as the original Leyland number with a B prefix.

Bob Gell

30/05/14 – 14:43

What do we know about Santus? I’ve never heard of them.

Chris Hebbron

30/05/14 – 15:05

Santus was a Wigan-based coach builder based in Wigan, along with Northern Counties and Massey. At one time there was a preserved Wigan Corporation Leyland Tiger (TS4?) with a Santus body. There was an article in Classic Bus magazine a few years ago about the firm. Apparently there is no connection between the Santus body builder and another firm of the same name also in Wigan which made toffees! Unfortunately I cannot now recall the fate of the Santus body-building company, only that they built saloons and coaches in pre-war days, and possibly early post-war. Can’t access the magazine article at present – Sorry.

Michael Hampton

30/05/14 – 18:13

There is a bit more about Santus on this site- a Bedford OB, it is thought (!) on the Isles of Scilly.

Joe

30/05/14 – 18:14

So, once again, my sources of information are found wanting (NOT Bolton CT!)

 
The Santus-bodied Tiger is indeed a TS4, and I attach a view of her at the WETC open day on 7 October 2012

Pete Davies

30/05/14 – 18:17

Chris, our very well informed fellow contributor to this site, Neville Mercer, has given some information about Santus under the OBP entry for Vics Tours (Isles of Scilly) – Bedford OB.

Roger Cox

31/05/14 – 08:06

Well, once again my knowledge of something somewhat obscure has been satisfied by some knowledgeable folk. Thank you all. Remarkable that Wigan had at least three bus bodybuilders. Did Wigan Corporation show local loyalty by buying examples from all three companies?

Chris Hebbron

01/06/14 – 09:33

Yes Chris, Wigan did support all three Wigan coach builders in pre-war days. I’ve checked my Leyland Society book on the Leylands of Wigan Corporation. This shows Leyland TD1′s purchased and bodied by Leyland itself, plus the three Wigan builders in 1931. Santus also figures as the builder of single-deckers on TS4 and TS7 chassis, like the one shown earlier, now preserved. I think it owes it’s survival to being used as a library for several years. However after 1936, the Corporation used only NCME and Massey, and Leyland itself for its contracts. One batch was bodied by English Electric in 1939. Post-war, the body builder spread continued to be Leyland, NCME and Massey, but not Santus. The book I referred to doesn’t mention any reason for the Corporation excluding Santus from the order book in the later 1930′s. Apparently those supplied were to and “old fashioned” appearance, but this seems to have been a Wigan requirement, and also applied to those buses supplied by the other manufacturers. This still applied to the 1937 TD4s, whose bodied closely followed the 1929 Leyland TD1 design (piano front, etc)!

Michael Hampton

Chris, Wigan Corporation did indeed show loyalty to local manufacturers, as I believe that from 1929 onwards (apart possibly from wartime allocations) it sourced chassis solely from Leyland, and bodywork from either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers, although I’m not sure how many Santus-bodied buses it operated. However, it was no doubt prudent of the Corporation to help the local economy in this way, as many of the bodybuilders’ employees were likely to use the Corporation’s buses to get to and from work etc, thus helping swell the council’s coffers.

Brendan Smith

01/06/14 – 09:35

Certainly not post-war Chris H because Santus didn’t build double deckers. You really should have a look at their coaches though because they were quite unlike any others, I’ve always had a fascination for them and it’s a pity that there are no survivors but build quality put paid to that. They did body just about every chassis going though even if few of them had long lives, I suppose this Barton PS1 was typical, lasting less than ten years with it’s coach body.
It was actually revealed after the article in Classic Bus that the coach building and the confectionery business were in fact related so even though there are no remaining coaches, at least you can treat yourself to a bag of Uncle Joe’s Mint Balls!

Chris Barker

02/06/14 – 07:24

Perhaps the excessive amount of sugar in the mint balls help to speed the decay of the vehicle body. Oh, we’re wandering off topic again!

Pete Davies

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

02/06/14 – 07:26

There is an example of postwar Santus coachwork in preservation, an unusual Seddon Mk IV registered DPR 518. It’s not been active for some time and I only discovered recently that it’s owned by someone I know (albeit not too well). I understand work is progressing on it very well.
With 74 PD1s and 42 PD2s with Leyland bodies and the first postwar Northern Counties and Massey double-deckers not delivered until 1956/7 I wouldn’t actually describe Wigan as loyal to the coachbuilders of the town. They bought just a handful of single-deckers prior to 1956, all with Northern Counties bodies. They clearly liked the Leyland body.

David Beilby

03/06/14 – 07:40

Well David that will ‘learn me’ to read my books more thoroughly, and also to clean my glasses more frequently. When I fished out my book on Northern Counties again, regarding Wigan Corporation it states that from 1930 onwards "bodywork was always built in the County Of Lancashire, and more often than not, supplied by either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers of Wigan". It was the "more often than not" that failed to register I’m afraid. I should have remembered the Leyland-bodied Leyland Titan PDs, which might have prompted me to think more broadly with ‘local’ meaning Lancashire rather than solely Wigan!

Brendan Smith

Copyright John Stringer

Wigan Corporation
1968
Leyland PD2/37
Massey H37/27F

Latterly, Massey double deck bodies adopted a much squarer outline than the curvy designs of previously, giving them a less stylish but nonetheless quite purposeful air.  Here we see one of Wigan Corporation’s final batch of so-equipped PD2’s, about to depart the town’s bus station for Wrightington Hospital, whilst a flock of archetypal bus station pigeons hover in the background.  What is it about pigeons and bus stations?

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

12/05/13 – 09:54

It’s interesting that this is the first appearance of a Wigan bus in the column on the left. For such a proud operator – look, no external adverts! – I’d have expected others to have got in before you, John. Thanks for posting.
Wigan and Leigh, having both avoided the dreaded SELNEC were appalled at the thought they should both fall into the renamed PTE’s clutches by being absorbed into the new County of Greater Manchester.
It’s very timely in view of yesterday’s FA cup result! Did our editor have his crystal ball polished specially while deciding when to post it?

Pete Davies

12/05/13 – 09:55

In Wigan bus station it was all about pecking the crumbs left by the Pie Eaters!! Well done Wigan on winning the Cup – now just ensure you stay up so the town truly becomes a first rate two sport venue.
Oh, nearly forgot, the PD2. That front dome is very heavy – almost in the same league as Alexander’s Balloon Roof dome. The curvy designs were seen as dated by the late 1960s and the more upright front profile mirrors Manchester’s attempts with its Burlingham and MCW Orion bodied PD2s.

Phil Blinkhorn

12/05/13 – 10:15

Actually Pete, Leigh Corporation passed into SELNEC (Northern) with all the others in 1969. Only Wigan suffered as a result of the l974 fiasco.

John Stringer

12/05/13 – 17:20

I sit corrected, John!

Pete Davies

12/05/13 – 17:21

The front spot/fog light is situated in an unusual position. I assume the route to Wrightington Hospital was joint with Ribble – being numbered 343. Was Wigan the last operator to continue with coloured "identifier" lights? James (of Ammanford) used a single green light mounted under the canopy on half-cabs and outside the front near-side windscreen of underfloor single-deckers, the last being so fitted were its 1957 Tiger Cubs. Were there any other users between 1957 and 1974?

Philip Rushworth

13/05/13 – 07:43

Yes, Philip, the 343 was joint with Ribble. A similar one, the 333, showed DANGEROUS CORNER on some blinds. I trust the drivers took suitable precautions!

Pete Davies

13/05/13 – 07:43

Maynes still had their identifier lights after Wigan was absorbed into GMT

Phil Blinkhorn

13/05/13 – 07:44

This route was one I used often when living in Wrightington. It was joint with Ribble but each operator actually took a slightly different route.
The Wigan version took a direct route while the Ribble version went under a low railway bridge which meant that it was always single decked. At the time I was using it these were Ribble’s iconic 36ft Leopards. This version of the service was numbered 333.
Phil the green lights were discontinued from 1957 on saloon but retained on double deckers until the last deliveries in 1972

Chris Hough

13/05/13 – 15:43

Chris, did you find that the Ribble buses were governed so their top speed was around 30 mph? Frustrating if the bus was running late.

Jim Hepburn

14/05/13 – 07:52

There must have been a time when Wigan Corporation vehicles appeared on the 333 as I can remember seeing a photo (in BBF6, I think) of a Tiger Cub standing on the then Wigan Bus Station displaying the famous destination ‘333 Dangerous Corner’. My memory says that the route was extended to Wrightington Hospital in the early 1960s and the destination ‘Dangerous Corner’ ceased to be used. There could well have been periods when only Ribble vehicles appeared on the 333, but it would have remained technically ‘joint’ of course.

David Call

15/05/13 – 07:39

Wigan was one of a group of North West municipal operators who reverted to the Leyland exposed radiator after previously having deliveries of Titans with both the BMMO and St Helens style ‘tin fronts’. Stockport and Ramsbottom were the others that come to mind.
Another interesting feature of the Wigan fleet was of course the unfathomable fleet numbering system. In the Ian Allan BBF’s the registration numbers were used to define the batches of vehicles with the fleet numbers being allocated in what appeared to be a completely random way. Does anybody know the reason for this (if there was one)?

Philip Halstead

16/05/13 – 14:00

Some of the posts on this site are critical of the role of the PTEs as bus operators – with reference to both their size and sometimes controversial liveries, although this is clearly a subjective matter.
The PTEs have stood the test of time, despite the upheavals since 1969 in both the bus industry and local government, but it is interesting to speculate on what might have happened if they had been just coordinating bodies from the outset, with the bus operations left in the hands of local authorities. After all, there was already a great deal of joint operation in the area which became Greater Manchester, between the various municipal operators and between them and the company operators Ribble, LUT and North Western, and it seems that little was gained by creating a mega-operator with over 2,500 buses and standardised staff conditions etc.
In 1974, local government reorganisation would have seen mergers between Wigan and Leigh, Bury and Ramsbottom and between Ashton and SHMD, maybe each with a new livery. While the last-mentioned would have been a merger of equals, no doubt the other two would have been seen locally as “takeovers”! This would have left Trafford as the only non-operating district. What would have been the implications of this?

Geoff Kerr

16/05/13 – 15:26

Geoff, a very interesting post which raises the potential of many hypothesis.
I’m not going to speculate on what might have been but will make the following points:
When Henry Mattinson established the Express Services in the late 1920s he prefigured SELNEC/GMT by 41 years and had he not died prematurely he may well have been able to both defend the services against the railways, taxi drivers and haulage companies and restructure the routings through the city to avoid Market St and the congestion thereon. There is some evidence that he had some form of deeper integration in mind.
His successor, Stuart Pilcher, had other fish to fry but Henry’s far-sightedness led to an unprecedented co-operation, through running arrangements and revenue sharing which, by 1968 had become somewhat unwieldy, especially in terms of mileage sharing, fare structures and revenue split.
Whatever the political motives behind the formation of the PTEs were, there was a sound economic, operating and purchasing reason to pull the bus operations in the conurbation together, local pride and the views of enthusiasts were a long way down the list of priorities. In effect the job was incomplete until GMT pulled in Wigan, LUT and the share of North Western.
In GMT times, especially under Labour, there was a definitive drive to finalise what had been started over 10 years previously and to give the operation an identification with Greater Manchester in a similar way to that which had been the case when the pre SELNEC operators served there own areas.
The SELNEC/GMT "standard bus" carried forward the well proven Manchester ideal of trying to achieve cost savings and spares rationalisation – though, as ever, there were a large number of deviations.
The anomaly of Trafford not having an operator within its boundaries arises from the fact that, from tram days, MCTD had set itself up in competition with the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham Railway which served Altrincham and, by default, Stretford and Sale on the way. As the route to Altrincham was the only real money spinner in the area, there was little room for the boroughs that now form Trafford to become involved, Manchester and North Western serving the branch routes off the A56.
The history of Manchester’s tram and bus operation along the A56 is littered with obstruction from both Stretford Council and the railway so there is no doubt that any operator set up by Altrincham, Sale or Stretford would have had problems both with each other and certainly with Manchester, though the problem never arose as even an SHMD type operation between the towns would have had few viable routes.
Had SELNEC/GMT never appeared, presumably after 1974, Manchester Corporation would have continued its presence in the Trafford area, as would NWRCC.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/05/13 – 07:19

Phil The idea of a single operating authority was also discussed in West Yorkshire in the thirties when the then Leeds manager W. Vane Morland suggested a PTE like organisation. One factor at the time which put brakes on the idea was the high degree of railway involvement in several of the operators.
It is also interesting that from 1974 when the later PTEs were set up no more large NBC companies were dismembered.
The companies based in the new West and South Yorkshire PTEs all had clearly defined territories where in the main the old municipal operators did not run except on joint services, indeed although West Yorks PTE was based in Wakefield it ran no services there.
But oh how I wish LUT were still in existence!

Chris Hough

16/07/13 – 07:51

Hi Philip
I live in Wigan & when I was a youngster used to have a fleet list (don’t have it anymore). I seem to recall that all the buses were numbered 1 to 150 & so each new bus took the number of one retired. Hence over time the numbering appears to be completely random.

Nigel

28/02/15 – 17:38

I used to drive, as a casual driver for Ribble Motors in the 1980’s, and believe it or not, the height warning in the cabs of the Leyland Nationals indicated that they wouldn’t fit under the bridge in Mill Lane, but they always did. JUST! When Red Bridge, at Standish Lower Ground still had its top span on, the newer double deckers that Wigan Corporation ran, wouldn’t fit under it. Only the older ones with the flatter tops would. So the newer ones always had a warning in the cab about this. Imagine my surprise when I was waiting for the bus in Shevington, to go to school round about 1957, and a newer bus arrived to pick us up. I said to my mate, "this bus won’t fit under the bridge" He told me not to be so stupid. Guess who was right?

Brian

01/03/15 – 06:48

I know the Dangerous Corner references are nearly 2 years old, but I have only just seen them. As well as Dangerous Corner on the A5209 near Wrightington, there is also a place with that name on the A577 near Atherton, I wonder if Wigan would have had that as a destination as well.
There is even a 3rd location with that name, it is in Yorkshire on the A59 near Menwith Hill though I can’t see that one appearing on a bus blind.

John Lomas

01/03/15 – 06:52

The reference to pigeons reminds me of a certain inspector at a certain underground (well, under-carpark) coach station in Manchester who did not like passengers who asked an excessive number (i.e., 2+) questions. He carried a pocket full of bird seed and would quietly stroll behind said passenger, scattering the good seed as he went – the resulting flocks of pigeons soon sent the passenger on their way!

John Hodkinson

02/03/15 – 07:29

I don’t think Wigan Corporation ran to the Dangerous Corner on the A577 near Atherton but Leigh Corporation certainly did and carried that destination on their blinds.

Michael Keeley

02/03/15 – 15:37

Here’s a shot of a SELNEC ex-Leigh PD2 destined for the ‘other’ Dangerous Corner near Atherton. www.flickr.com/photos/81936099

David Call

02/03/15 – 17:56

With the "home made" style radiator grille, it looks as if it has had a more serious encounter at "Dangerous Corner" – this one or somewhere!

Michael Hampton

03/03/15 – 06:24

True, Michael- or was it cross-bred with a Guy – a Leyland Arabic?

Joe

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

28/01/17 – 10:58

I’m surprised no one has mentioned that this was one of the last Massey built bodies as Northern Counties took over in 1968.

Paul Mason

Copyright Brendan Smith

CIE (Coras Iompair Eirann)
1965
Leyland Leopard PSU3/4R
CIE / Metal sections B45F

Seen resting in Tralee, this fine looking machine was one of 183 similar vehicles delivered in 1965/66.  Mechanically, they sported semi-automatic transmission, air suspension and power steering, and internally fluorescent lighting and forced air ventilation were fitted.  Interestingly, they had single curvature windscreens, rather than the BET-style double curvature screens gaining favour elsewhere at the time.  That said, the CIE type of screen did lend the Leopards a distinctive air.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

07/05/13 – 18:02

Presumably in the bus depot yard on John Joe Sheehy Rd.
If only we had such interesting vehicles down here today instead of the unremitting diet of Sania/Irizar with a slight dilution of the one and only BMC (no, not them, I mean the Turkish outfit) school bus assigned to Tralee.

Phil Blinkhorn

09/05/13 – 07:44

Yes I think that’s the one Phil, if it’s the yard by the railway station (an ‘interchange?’). I sympathise with you on the lack of variety in Tralee nowadays. It sounds desperate, as my Irish grandparents used to say. Even in the late ‘seventies when the photo was taken, CIE still had quite a lot to offer the enthusiast. They could certainly muster Titan PD3s, Atlantean PDRs, Van Hool-McArdle-bodied Atlantean AN68s, Leopard Ls and PSUs, Bedford SB/MetSec schoolbuses, 12metre Leopard PSU coach and express vehicles with CIE/MetSec bodies, not to mention Leopard / Van Hool coaches, and the odd towing lorry converted from a full-fronted Tiger OPS. All that combined with wonderful scenery, friendly people and the best pints of Guinness in the world.

Brendan Smith

09/05/13 – 11:43

The yard is still there and the bus station building was redeveloped some years ago. "Interchange" is a bit of a misnomer as bus and train departures don’t tie up nowadays. The bus station is busiest on schooldays at around 08.45 and 16.00 when school buses abound – mainly from the CIE service fleet but augmented by private operators.
When we moved here from the UK 15 years ago there were a number of Bombardier single deckers, VC class Caetano bodied Volvos – then a couple of years old – even ex Singapore VS class Volvo B57s as school buses. Since then we’ve had some tatty ex West Midland Lynx and a couple of Plaxton bodied VR class Volvos.
Double deckers, other than the odd Neoplan tourist coach, are virtual rarities. There used to be a British registered PD3 at the local McDonald’s but that vanished in around 2006, leaving the Bus Eireann Bombardier open top double decker as the only "regular" visitor but even that goes missing in the rare years when Kerry doesn’t win the All Ireland Football Final.
Considering the range of vehicles in the fleet, we have very little to look at.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/11/18 – 08:53

It should be noted that this livery layout was unusual on the C class Leopards with the original pointed roof ends (as on this bus) — all except two were all red with just the roof in cream. When the roof ends were altered to a flatter profile several buses had the cream applied down to waist level. Approximately two dozen buses of the 270 strong fleet did not have the roof ends altered.

Shane Conway