North Western Road Car Co
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/21
Weymann L30/28RD

Until the arrival of ten of these in the North Western fleet in 1956, previous examples of the Leyland PD2 had featured traditional exposed radiators and bodywork by either Leyland themselves, or by Weymann, who had supplied six lightweight but otherwise classically styled bodies in 1953. This last batch featured the PD2/21 chassis with the concealed front – originally designed for Midland Red’s LD8 class, then adopted as standard by Leyland, even leaving the oddly shaped blank space above the grille slots intended for the BMMO badge. The PD2/21 was the less common air-braked variant of the more common vacuum-braked PD2/20. The bodywork was the lowbridge manifestation of the MCW organisation’s lightweight Orion, regarded by many as being particularly slab-sided and ugly, though personally I always felt that the equal depth windows (compared with the unequal ones of the highbridge version) at least improved the overall proportions.
It seems that they were generally unpopular with crews and most local enthusiasts, being accused of being very hard riding. They were quite a familiar site to me – particularly on Summer Saturdays when the usual ‘blacktop’ Tiger Cubs or Reliances were needed for greater things – as they would often pass through my home town of Halifax working on the X12 between Manchester and Bradford. Although this service passed our house, the limited stop conditions on that section left it out of bounds to us locals, so I never got to ride on one.
Although the other nine were scrapped, Neville Mercer has said that 666 was exported to Canada, so there is a remote chance that it could still exist. Similar looking examples were also bought by East Midland, and the Corporations of Luton and Southend.
Here 666 is seen on the parking ground off Wood Street in Stockport, alongside 258, a Leopard PSU4/4R with Duple Commander III C41F body of 1968.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

29/10/14 – 17:07

When I worked at Sharston (near Northenden) 666 from Manchester depot, took me on the first leg of my journey home to Royton. It was on the 64 service to Piccadilly (from Ringway) almost every day. I hated it. The suspension was indeed very hard. I usually sat on the front nearside seat in the lower deck, which was not too bumpy. The North Western drivers always gave me a fast run into town – they made good time by ignoring one or two intending passengers. As for sound effects, the journey was accompanied by sneezing noises from the air brakes!
At summer weekends it sometimes appeared on X12, Manchester – Halifax – Bradford. I had the misfortune to ride on it one Saturday from Bradford to Oldham. The West Riding road surfaces made for a miserable journey!
Wouldn’t mind a ride on it now though!!

Peter G

29/10/14 – 17:08

John mentions that these lowbridge PD2’s were familiar to him as they regularly passed through Halifax on the X12. This one actually passed through Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1972, on its way west, it certainly took me by surprise when I caught a glimpse of it. I’m not sure if it still exists or not, or just where it might be.

Dave Careless

30/10/14 – 07:18

The problem of harsh riding given by the lightweight Orion and its clones was shared by other makes of chassis, all of which were sprung to carry the typical weight of traditional, decent quality bodywork.

Roger Cox

30/10/14 – 07:19

Not only were they hard riding, they were finished to a cheap specification, rattled a lot and the crews hated the rear doors. All in all not the finest NWRCC vehicles.

Phil Blinkhorn

30/10/14 – 07:20

It’s lovely to see a photo of the registration number KDB 666 as nature intended, adorning a North Western Leyland Titan. In the late 1970’s the registration number could often be seen around Harrogate, attached to a very nice green Rover 3500. The bus connection was maintained however, as the Rover was used by one of NBC/West Yorkshire Road Car’s senior managers.

Brendan Smith

05/11/14 – 06:29

I have a note of seeing this bus in Frank Cowley’s yard in Fallowfield, re-registered KDB 499, in January 1972. I wonder what that mark was transferred from?

Michael Keeley

05/11/14 – 11:36

I’ve long wondered if "KDB 499" was a real registration mark. Given the fundamentalist tendencies of many North Americans I can understand why Cowley (given a Canadian buyer for the vehicle) might have decided to remove the original "Number of the Beast" plate, but would they really have gone to the trouble of officially re-registering it with a similar mark? My suspicion is that the plate was for purely cosmetic purposes.
Back in the late 60s I saw a few withdrawn NWRCC vehicles being ferried to Cowley’s Salford and Fallowfield premises using the dealer’s "BA" trade plates, and once the PD2/21 had gotten there its next trip was on a boat. I’d also be interested to find out when the WYRCC staff-car received the registration. Was there a noticeable gap?
The PSV Circle’s NWRCC fleet history asserts that KDB 499 was a genuine registration, but as aficionados of these histories will be aware the level of accuracy in this is not up to their usual standard. Does anybody have a record of Stockport registrations?

Neville Mercer

06/11/14 – 06:08

KDB 499 may well have been a real registration mark but not to NWRCC for a PSV. They had KDB 631 to KDB 700, all but 661-670 being applied to Tiger Cub deliveries in 1956 and 1957.

Orla Nutting

06/11/14 – 11:42

Hi Orla, I think you’ve forgotten the batch of Weymann Fanfares that started at KDB 626, making a total of 75 vehicles in the block allocation. KDB 499 was presumably allocated to a private car, and I really can’t understand why NWRCC would go to the trouble of re-registering the vehicle before selling it to Cowley. Back in those days this would have involved buying the previous vehicle to wear the marks – a rather expensive manoeuvre merely to get rid of one old bus. There’s obviously another story going on here – the allocation of 666’s old registration number to the WYRCC staff car. I appreciate that "KDB" looks vaguely like a WYRCC fleet number, but a staff car would look nothing like a Keighley based Bristol double-decker! Why would anybody (especially a no-nonsense THC subsidiary) pay good money to do this?
Do we have any ex-WYRCC readers who can throw further light on this?

Neville Mercer

06/11/14 – 14:15

Ah, yes. The AEC Reliances. I had forgotten them.

Orla Nutting

07/11/14 – 13:17

Neville, the senior member of staff arrived in Harrogate from elsewhere in the National Bus Company empire, and the Rover came with him, already bearing its KDB 666 registration. Maybe he had a soft spot for this particular bus (666) or perhaps there was something of significance in the registration. Alas we’ll probably never know.

Brendan Smith

11/11/14 – 18:18

I’ve done some digging in my records and find that KDB 666 was on a Rover 3500 that came under West Yorkshire admin on 16/1/75. However, it runs in my mind that the NBC “senior member” was Robert Brook, and that he didn’t come to Yorkshire to join West Yorkshire, but to live. Certainly, it’s shown as being the “Chief Executive’s” car. At about this time, if you remember, NBC was also running an area office in Darlington, to which Bill Stephen had been “shunted” when he was removed as WY Chief Engineer, but whether that was where Mr Brook also worked I can’t now remember. I suspect he probably spent a lot of time commuting to London!

Trevor Leach

12/11/14 – 05:36

Presumably the Robert Brook who was General Manager of North Western at the time it was broken up? I seem to recall that there was another Robert Brook, although I might just have been confused by rapid ‘career moves’!

Nigel Frampton

09/04/15 – 07:05

I remember seeing a beige Rover in Cheadle in the late sixties or early seventies with the reg KDB 666. I loved occasionally having a lowbridge Titan on my journey to school. The routes 29, 30, 52 and 52A were predominantly Daimler Fleetlines, Dennis Lolines 2 and 3 and AEC Renowns (my favourite bus ever was AJA 121B one of the second batch with moquette upholstery on the upper deck) so a lowbridge Titan was quite a novelty.

Graham Bloxsome

23/05/15 – 07:05

There’s no mystery. Robert Brook was the last GM of North Western and he took the registration with him for his car when he left at the end of 1972. He also left with a photo I prepared for him of 666 as delivered in the old cream roof black wings livery. He and I left the Manchester area at the same time and he kindly let me speak to him in his office knowing my interest in North Western and as owner of CDB 206.

Bob Bracegirdle

01/09/17 – 15:14

I’ve just read through this thread and can definitely clarify, if there’s still any uncertainty, that Robert Brook was overall Chairman of NBC in 1978-80 at a time when Linda Chalker was Minister for Transport. My GM at the time would say ‘Oh dear, we’ve got another Dear Robert, love Linda.’ i.e. another memo from the Minister to our lord and master that had to be dealt with. Presumably Bob B’s ‘left’ didn’t mean retirement, or could have referred to another RB?

Nick Turner

Liverpool City Transport
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Crossley H33/29R

New in November 1956, L255 was one of a batch of 65 Leyland Titan PD2/20 chassis that had been ordered back in 1955, partly to enable the 19 & 44 tram routes to be converted to bus operation. It was originally painted in the Dark green livery with two cream bands.
When new L255 was allocated to Carnegie Road garage, but its stay there was only short lived as it was transferred to Walton in March 1957. There it was used on routes such as 19/44/92/93 serving the new expanding housing estates of Kirkby, Southdene and Tower Hill as well as the Corporations own Kirkby Industrial Estate. where it lives today!
When Walton closed for rebuilding in October 1962, L255, along with the majority of Waltons allocation moved to the new Gillmoss garage . Following overhauls in 1966 and 1971 it returned to Gillmoss.
It then moved to Litherland garage in August 1973 and saw use on services 28,51,52,53,55,55A,56,57,57A,58,59 to Ford, Netherton and Sefton. L255’s stay at Litherland was a short one as it was transferred for the last time in April 1975 to Green Lane. There it was used mainly on peak hour extras and industrial workings until it was finally withdrawn from service in March 1976.
Purchased for preservation in May 1976 and joined the other vehicles in the growing Mersey and Calder Preservation group in 1977. As L255 was in basically good condition it was soon rubbed down and painted back into the early 1960’s livery of green with cream staircase panel and window surrounds.
In 1996 after more than 20 years in active preservation and with more than 25 years since a major overhaul, it was time for some major body restoration. After stripping every external panel off the bus, it was soon found that there was a fair amount of work involved.
Following a flurry of activity in early 2007, L255 was eventually completed finally passing the MOT 2 days before the Mersey Transport Trust’s annual running day in September 2007, proving a popular attraction during the day. During 2009 a rechromed drivers window surround was fitted and in 2010 side adverts were added much improving its appearance. It is seen at the 2014 Kirkby running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

28/10/14 – 07:03

I always thought that the Liverpool bonnet assembly detracted from the overall look of these buses. The flush windscreen and unusual livery application didn’t really help either

Chris Hough

29/10/14 – 07:12

Totally agree Chris. Much better looking examples of what was a PRV design were operated in the North West by Oldham and Stockport.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/10/14 – 15:59

When compared to other tin fronts of the period, the front panel and the area around the windscreen, give it a sort of DIY in-house accident repair appearance, rather than one that was built that way in the first place.

Ronnie Hoye

30/10/14 – 07:16

There is a lot of confusion about Crossley bodies of this period. Despite employing the PRV rear emergency window, I don’t believe this was the PRV design (as supplied later to Stockport and Oldham), and neither does the Crossley book (Eyre Heaps & Townsin). Mind you, that book isn’t foolproof; identical bodies supplied to Darwen are coded as the PRV design, while those supplied to Sunderland are coded as a Liverpool design.
The flat front to the upper deck is something specifically requested by Liverpool and used on Crossley bodies elsewhere. The standard Midland Red assembly would not have allowed this, and in fact later Liverpool bodies with the Midland Red assembly had bow-fronted bodies by Duple and Alexander.

Peter Williamson

31/10/14 – 06:27

As the owner of the bus, I can confirm that the Crossley body is of Park Royal design, I have restored both L255 & Park Royal bodied Barrow 170 CEO 957, the only difference being the window frames. Liverpool using glass mounted from the inside with a window ledge inside as against the Standard Park Royal body on 170 with windows mounted from the outside with a ledge outside. The last true Crossley designed body supplied to Liverpool was L224, L225 to L244 also carried Crossley framework but the coachwork was completed by LCPT at Edge lane works.
I hope this clarifies it more.

Rob Wilson

03/11/14 – 06:34

Thanks for your clarification, Rob. It probably means I’ve been spouting rubbish on various forums for some time, thanks to believing what experts write in books. One thing that fooled me (not clear in this view but there are plenty of other photos around) was the small rectangular windows in the front bulkhead, which Crossley had used on their own-framed bodies. On other Park Royal-framed Crossley bodies the bulkhead is the standard Park Royal type with a deeply arched lower rail to the windows. Perhaps this is again due to the different glazing system used for Liverpool (and Darwen, Sunderland and Aberdeen).

Peter Williamson

03/11/14 – 10:19

A quick scan on SCT61 pages suggests that Liverpool specified that size of front bulkhead window on all their contemporary Leyland deckers be they Saunders-Roe, Duple, Alexander or Crossley bodied.
On Stockport’s Crossley bodied Leyland deckers with PRV frames the bulkhead window bottom rail does follow the line of the engine cover but it, and those on the next batch of Longwell Green bodies, is still a very narrow window (made to look even more so by the top opening vent) compared with that fitted to their later East Lancs bodied St Helens front PD2s.

Orla Nutting

03/11/14 – 16:28

Liverpool made a habit of taking framed chassis from the likes of Weymann and Crossley but then changing the profiles. There were some very odd Weymann/Liverpool bodies on Regent IIs with an upright profile which ruined the general style of the Weymann original – and I believe they also had non-Weymann upper deck tear emergency exits. Even the Met-Camm Orion Regent Vs were not standard Met-Camm. That accolade went to the the famous Nottingham PD2s famous because they were the first Nottingham PD2s.

David Oldfield

04/11/14 – 06:45

…..and of course there were the 1949 all Crossley DD42s that Sheffield acquired new as a cancelled Liverpool order. These were neither the popularly remembered Crossley outline, nor did they have the PRV framed body. These were identical to the Regent IIIs and the first Regent Vs which Liverpool took delivery of and kept hold of. Although L255 is obviously based on the PRV design, there are also elements of the earlier design around the front (especially upper deck).

David Oldfield

05/11/14 – 06:40

Hopefully a rather extensive restoration of Barrow 170 will be completed soon by the Barrow Transport group.
So I hope that when it ventures to our NWVRT Open day at Kirkby (plug 31/5/2015)we can get them parked together to record similarities.
Another Park Royal trait that L255 carries internally is the pressed out lighting mounts along the cove panels in the upper saloon ,just like the ones on 170 & Park Royal bodied Liverpool E1.
The Crossley Bodies AEC’s and the Liverpool PD2’s up to L224 had their lights at the edge of the ceiling . Was this a standard Crossley practice ?

Rob Wilson

11/11/14 – 18:20

I now have to eat some more of my words. Earlier I said that use of the standard Leyland (originally Midland Red) bonnet assembly would not have allowed Liverpool to have their much-loved flat-fronted upper deck. I got this idea from Alan Townsin’s Duple book, which says that the uncharacteristic bow fronts of the Duple bodies on L91-140 were dictated by the design of the Leyland tin-front.
However, I now find that Darwen’s pair of Crossley-bodied PD2/20s managed to incorporate both the Leyland tin front and the Liverpool-style flat-fronted upper deck perfectly well – see www.sct61.org.uk/dw15
I also think I have solved the conundrum of the bulkhead window. Other photos of L255 show it to have a much wider bulkhead window than the Crossley-framed bodies, and the reason for departing from the standard PRV window was almost certainly the rearward-facing seat behind the bulkhead, which I had forgotten about. I have reverted to my earlier belief that other Crossley bodies with the narrow window (Darwen, Sunderland, Aberdeen) were Crossley-framed.

Peter Williamson

04/06/16 – 07:07

I thought I had a photo of a Liverpool Crossley DD42 and have now found it. C642 taken at Pier Head on July 5, 1962, still in cream bands livery and by this time only appearing on school, university and short workings.

Geoff Pullin

08/01/21 – 07:33

I loved the batch of Leylands that replaced the trams.
When I became a bus spotter circa 1962, the fleet still had remnants of pre war buses when it was difficult to buy one.
When Leyland Atlanteans were used on my school route 61 to Aigburth, occasionally in the peak hours you would get a 1947/8 Leyland Titan PD2/1 (L425-428) with Leyland coachwork with moquette seats, very harsh with short kegs (trousers). They were almost posh for their time and its such a shame that none of them were saved.
I believe L316-318 were not painted as A40. Shame they were not saved as well.
I used to go to the Edge Lane depot and walk around the withdrawals, Daimlers, early AEC regent IIIs (grim). Those lovely enamelled AEC badges on the radiators and bell pushes……
I was only 11.

Muckel Price

Warrington Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD1
Leyland H30/26R

EED 8 is a Leyland Titan PD1 and according to others on the web it is said to have a Leyland/Alexander H56R body new in 1947 to Warrington as their number 24. Maybe Leyland were busy at the time and it was a Leyland body assembled by Alexander.
It is at present owned by NWVRT and they have repainted it recently into Warrington colours. It was one of three half cabs in service during their 2014 rally at Kirkby.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

06/10/14 – 07:05

How close to a Leyland body is that?

Jim Hepburn

06/10/14 – 07:06

Alexanders built numerous bodies under sub-contract to Leyland – although the detailing on the Ribble Titans betrayed their non-Leyland credentials. I seem to remember reading that there was at least one other sub-contractor (Santus?) – and was SMT involved in this as well? SMT certainly built their own "Duple Vista" bodies on Bedford OBs which were virtually indistinguishable. Alexanders certainly built a "Leyland" body on a PD2 prototype.

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 09:10

David, in a similar manner to the Alexander sub contract PD1s were also bodied by Samlesbury Engineering in Lancashire.

Chris Youhill

06/10/14 – 10:02

Thanks, Chris. I think maybe that it was Samlesbury that I had in no.

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 10:02

Warrington 24 (EED 8) has been in preservation for many years in Warrington colours, and has indeed been subject to a recent repaint. Although, as has been said, the body was indeed built by Alexander, it is still ‘officially’ a Leyland body, and has always been described as such, in the same fashion as East Lancs bodies built by Bruce and later Neepsend were initially described as East Lancs products, although latterly Bruce and Neepsend have been used to describe them, so Leyland or maybe Alexander, but please not Leyland/Alexander!

Philip Lamb

06/10/14 – 13:54

…..and, of course, there is the long Alexander tradition of building other’s designs – sometimes under subcontract, sometimes not. (Glasgow’s "Weymann" bodies). This was replied to by the likes of East Lands and their R type clones!

David Oldfield

06/10/14 – 13:55

These Alexander-built bodies (the ones for Warrington at least) had a single window in their upper rear emergency exit – as opposed to Leyland’s more usual two – making the back end tend to resemble the prewar Leyland body. It is just discernible in this view. The other distinguishing feature was that normally they had four small sets of ventilation slots along the top of the cab door, unlike the standard Leyland product which had just two horizontal ones, one above the other. However the one pictured has the latter, so I presume must have acquired a secondhand door from a Leyland body at some point during its restoration.

John Stringer

17/02/15 – 15:13

Can some help me, I worked for Walsall Corporation Transport in the early 60s I remember Walsall buying 2 Warrington buses, I think they were
EED 8/9 is this correct?

Bruce Johnson

18/02/15 – 06:42

Bruce J, I’m afraid that I can’t personally answer your question, but I wondered if you could yourself answer a query which has gone round a few websites without being satisfactorily answered. It concerns Walsall’s lightweight Leyland PD2, 823 (TDH 770). I have seen it referred to as being ‘semi-automatic’ but I wonder if you could say if it
1) was a preselect, like the ex-London RTLs;
2) had a direct air system, such as became normal on two-pedal Leyland PD2s, PD3s, Tiger Cubs and Leopards;
3) had an electric gear selector, such as on early Atlanteans, Fleetlines, etc.
If you fail to get a response to your own query here, can I suggest that you try the message board at the sct61 site, it’s always a good place to have questions answered.

David Call

18/02/15 – 08:31

I think Walsall bought a couple of East Lancs bodied PD1s from Warrington , about the same time as the RTLs.

Steve Milner

19/02/15 – 15:55

The two Warrington Corporation Titans sold to Walsall Corporation were 100/01 (EED 9/10).
They were Titan PD1A with Bruce L27/26R new in 1947 and sold to Walsall in July 1959 as numbers 198/99, lasting until being sold for scrap in 1963 and 1964 respectively.
They were Warrington Corporation’s only two lowbridge buses.

Dave Farrier

12/03/15 – 06:44

I have been the owner of ex-Warrington PD1 EED 5 (fleet no.24) for nearly 40 years! Like EED 8, it has bodywork designed and produced by Leyland but assembled by Alexander – I have a copy of the letter from Warrington confirming this. The body on EED 5 is original and classed as a Leyland metal framed type: this has a cab door with four vents near the top and rear emergency door on the top deck containing two windows.

Phil Clark

12/03/15 – 17:03

In distinguishing between the Leyland and Alexander product on the PD1 chassis I have always used the style of the front panel of the cab as the determining feature. On the Leyland body it always conceals the mudguard, usually with the horn inserted as on the Warrington bus. The Alexander version has a shorter and slightly more set back panel allowing the bottom of the mudguard to protrude, as can be seen in the attached picture. This actually shows both PD1 (right) and PD2/1 (left) versions of the ‘pure’ Alexander product.
There are also variations in the shape of the nearside canopy. The Leyland style on the Warrington PD1 is a continuous curve from top front corner to where it meets the mudguard, projecting in front of the bulkhead. This is echoed on the Alexander PD2, but on the PD1 it goes straight back from the front corner with quite a short valance with a basically angled profile. There is no projection of the side panel in front of the bulkhead.
A further question is whether Alexander actually produced a highbridge version of the Leyland clone (as opposed to assembling Leyland parts). There are certainly none that I can locate in any of the SBG fleets, although they might have delivered to other fleets. Nothing at this period was supplied to any of the Scottish municipal fleets.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/03/15 – 07:10

The photo of CRG and AWG also seems to show 2 other diagnostic differences. The gap between the 2 blind boxes and the design of the top of the upper deck front windows.

John Lomas

13/03/15 – 12:49

The points you mention are diagnostic between the versions of the Alexander body; I was aiming to highlight the differences between the Leyland and Alexander products.

Alan Murray-Rust

05/05/15 – 07:23

I’ve seen EED 8 mentioned on here and just to let you know it’s back in Warrington and privately owned I’m trying to set up a page on Facebook for my husband it his is bus.

Trina

03/03/18 – 06:47

I am sorry to inform you that EED 8, which was preserved in Warrington, was destroyed in a fire on Thursday 1st March 2018. A sad loss.

Paul Mason

03/03/18 – 06:50

Sad to say Warrington Corporation no 8 EED 8 is no more, destroyed in fire at Fairbrothers Bewsey Warrington.

Anthony Mcdonnell

04/03/18 – 06:46

It is unfortunate that it had gone back to Warrington. www.warrington-worldwide.co.uk/

John Lomas

29/03/18 – 06:02

It was very sad to see the destruction of EED 8 by fire, a tragic accident that has destroyed all but the chassis, running gear, cab and the front, but it was remarkable to see the engine start and run straight away so that it could be driven out of the shed. I wish Ray and colleagues every good wish in their desire to rebuild the vehicle and hope that one day we can re-unite EED 8 with my bus EED 5.

Phil Clark

30/03/18 – 07:53

How sad, Phil. What actually happened?

Chris Hebbron

02/04/18 – 07:30

I saw the bus on BBC North West news and the vehicle was still recognisable but sadly I think the best thing for EED 8 is to be sold as spares for another Leyland PD1. The only other option, which would effectively mean building a new bus would be to follow the example of WW2 utility Guy Arab CDR 679, which lost its original body but was fitted with another utilitybody, but such matches are rare. I wish the owner well and I’m sorry about the fire.

Paul Mason