Yorkshire Traction
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Northern Counties H42/33F

I do not have many photos of rear engined buses they did not have the same charisma has the front engined buses, a little bit boxy for me. Although this Northern Counties body on this bus does look good, mind you I think it was brand new at the time I took the photo. According to the fleet lists I researched the information from for this bus it is classed as a highbridge body but the fleet number ends in an ‘L’ which would suggest lowbridge so why the ‘L’? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
Photo taken again at the old Bradford bus station, and the bus in the background is an AEC Regent V of Yorkshire Woollen District.

The term "lowbridge" or "highbridge" refers to whether or not the bus has a sunken offside or a central gangway on the upper deck, and not to the overall height of the bus. Any bus with a drop-centre rear axle (Lodekka, Fleetline, later Atlanteans etc. can be lower in overall height than one with a conventional straight rear axle and still have a centre gangway upstairs, at the expense of a more complicated floor layout in the lower saloon.
Tracky were plagued by lots of low bridges, so they nearly always went for the low height option, and the fleet number code was intended to tell staff where the bus could safely go, rather than the seating layout.

David A Jones

That’s a lovely picture of a Tracky bus and shows a service which disappeared some time ago. The 66 service to Sheffield was a marathon and took 2 hours and 44 minutes to get from one end to the other. It was split in the late sixties and after that Sheffield C fleet double-deckers, which also worked the service, were no longer seen in Bradford. Yorkshire Traction took a brief break before returning with joint operation of a revised Huddersfield to Bradford via Cleckheaton service in the early seventies.

David Beilby

The PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had the Albion Lowlander drop axle and a Daimler gearbox. Early PDR1/1s were not particularly good or reliable – especially compared with PD Titans – but the nadir was reached with drop axle versions. It took until 1972 for Leyland to produce another top quality bus, the AN68 Atlantean, which never had a drop axle version. [By that time, Leyland offered either the Daimler Fleetline or Bristol VRT for this option.]

David Oldfield

The PDR1/3 wasn’t something to be proud about as a manufacturer. If I remember rightly there were only somewhere just over eighty built and it was pretty bad. The Fleetline was a much better proposition.

Andrew

27/02/11 – 17:06

The 66 service, and also the 67 Sheffield – Barnsley -Leeds, disappeared in April 1971 as part of an NBC reorganisation, and Sheffield buses then no longer ran north of Barnsley. Sheffield JOC and "Tracky" were joint operators on both routes, with Yorkshire Woollen on the 66 and West Riding on the 67. Part of the 66 route became "Tracky" service 109 Barnsley – Dewsbury.

Geoff Kerr

27/02/11 – 21:00

Strictly speaking, Sheffield JOC disappeared in 1970, with the formation of NBC – which is why Yorkshire Woollen received the C Fleet buses (including PD2/ECW and PDR1/Weymann).
Sheffield did continue going north of Barnsley, but on the White Rose Express which eventually faded until the pre-Stagecoach private Yorkshire Traction axed it within the last ten years. Tracky used ex-Lincoln double deck coaches in latter days.

David Oldfield

02/03/11

Yes, I should have written "and Sheffield Corporation buses (which took over the JOC share of the 65/66/67 after its winding up in 1970) no longer ran north of Barnsley on a local stopping service."
Interestingly, I’ve just come across a photograph taken in 1967 of a Sheffield Corporation Atlantean at Bradford working the 66. This was either working off mileage accumulated on Corporation A routes by C fleet buses or maybe the depot had nothing else to send out.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/11 – 08:50

Geoff, your 1967 Atlantean could have been doing both. I have a picture of PDR2/1/Park Royal 193 (WWB 193G) on a demonstration loan to someone on service 26 to Bradshaw. (I’m sure someone will tell me where.)

David Oldfield

24/08/11 – 08:26

David, Service 26 to Bradshaw – that will be Halifax.
Halifax Corporation/JOC operated Fleetlines but had no Atlanteans – presumably they wanted to try one.

Geoff Kerr

10/12/11 – 12:27

Just a comment regarding the Daimler Fleetline vehicles which were operated by "Tracky" I drove these vehicles during my time at "Tracky" and hated them, the brakes were very poor with absolutely no pedal "Feel", quite often the pedal was "on the floor" and the vehicle was just stopping in it`s own time, very disconcerting I can tell you. The steering was vague, and engine performance left a lot to be desired, this just about summed up the general standard of Daimler vehicles.

David Adshead

11/12/11 – 06:45

David, interesting perspective. I would personally agree with you about the Fleetline but it says a lot about the PRD1 Atlantean that people moved away from it in droves towards the Fleetline – especially "Leyland" companies like Tracky.

David Oldfield

11/12/11 – 06:47

If the YTC Fleetlines suffered from poor engine performance, then somebody in the engineering department must have been tinkering with the Gardner engine speed governors to reduce the output in an attempt to lift the mpg. The 1968 batch had 6LXB engines running up to 1850 rpm, but the 6LX motors installed in the earlier Yorkshire Woollen District Fleetlines were certainly not lacking in power if set correctly, even if the modest 1700 rpm governed speed did somewhat limit maximum road performance.

Roger Cox

15/01/17 – 07:18

Just re-visiting this site and read the comment from David Oldfield and Roger Cox regarding the Daimler Fleetlines, it seems pretty obvious to me that they never drove these horrible buses, one in particular (Fleet No 663) was absolutely dire, right from new it had no power, booked off repeatedly for P**S poor performance, it never got any better, on one journey to Highburton near Huddersfield I had to ask the passengers to get off and wait until I came back down the hill because the horrible thing could not manage the hill with 20 or so passengers on board, after serious complaining the company sorted it, they banned the vehicle from further use on that route.

David Adshead

15/01/17 – 11:01

Its amazing how individual drivers have opinions oceans apart on various bus models. For my money, with considerable experience, the Fleetline (Daimler or later Leyland) was the finest of the first generation of rear engined buses – I always loved them, and can’t remember ever driving a really "duff" one.

Chris Youhill

15/01/17 – 11:15

David A, having read your comments on the Fleetline, I must put myself firmly in the camp of David O, and Roger. Before you ask, yes, I have driven Fleetlines a mile or several thousand, and for me they were a far superior vehicle to the PDR1/1 Atlantean.
Between 1967 & 1975, I was a driver at NGT Percy Main depot, and we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I left Percy Main in 1975, and I have limited experience of later Atlanteans.

Percy Main Atlantean and Fleetline up to 1968:
PDR1/1 Atlantean
1960:
CFT 636/644 – 236/244 Weymann
DFT 245/249 – 245/249 Roe
1962:
FFT 754/761 – 254/261 Roe
CRG6LX Fleetline
1963:
HFT 366/375 – 266/275 Weymann
1964
JFT 276/280 – 276/280 Weymann
1965
AFT 783/789C – 283/289 Alexander
1967
DFT 290/292E – 290 292 Alexander
1968
EFT 693/702F – 293/302 Alexander

If as you say, your Fleetlines wouldn’t pull, then it must have been the way they were set up. The ones we had didn’t have the top speed of an Atlantean, but even with a full load they were more than capable of keeping pace with the traffic, and as for hill climbing, they could literally leave an Atlantean for dead.
The standard of maintenance at P/M was extremely high, nevertheless, breakdowns with an Atlantean were not uncommon, and I lost count of the number of times one packed up on me. I contrast, I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the amount of time I was let down by a Fleetline.
Unfortunately, when NBC came into being, and the lunatics had taken control of the asylum, despite the vehement protests of NGT, most of our Fleetlines were transferred to East Yorkshire Motor Services.

Ronnie Hoye

15/01/17 – 14:55

Yorkshire Tracky PD’s out of Doncaster could, I suggest, tell the same tale as David A’s Fleetlines: they felt sadly underpowered and unlike Doncaster CVD’s, never got a move on: the drivers seemed reluctant to change down- probably because they daren’t drop the revs, so the most modest railway "flyover" hill turned into "can a do it"? What was that about messing with the governors?

Joe

15/01/17 – 16:12

I found this particular thread this morning. My student days were in Birmingham in the mid to late sixties, so after the comparative trials between the Fleetlines and the Atlanteans. It can’t have been just coincidence that they bought Fleetlines and very little else thereafter.

Pete Davies

17/01/17 – 06:56

I suspect decisions to buy Fleetlines rather than Atlanteans were much more often influenced by the availability of Gardner (high torque at low speed and fuel frugal) engines!

Geoff Pullin

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

17/12/18 – 07:18

All the Atlanteans and Daimlers were fitted with a Semi Automatic gearbox by Self Changing Gears Co Ltd Coventry, they had nothing to do with Daimler other than supplying the gearbox, British Leyland bought the rights to this gearbox and fitted it to all the later BL buses as standard.

David

18/12/18 – 07:14

I assume David’s comment is in response to David Oldfield’s statement that the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had a Daimler gearbox. When the PDR1/2 first appeared, no less an authority than Alan Townsin wrote: "The gearbox is a Dammler direct selection epicyclic unit, as fitted to the Fleetline, with concentric drive." (British Double Deckers Since 1942, published 1965)
A later article in Commercial Motor magazine, describing the problems Nottingham Corporation had with their PDR1/2 Atlanteans, says: "This model, since dropped by Leyland, employed Daimler epicyclic gearboxes in place of the usual SelfChanging Gears epicyclic box, featuring an output drive on the same side as the input drive of the gearbox and thus facilitating the lower axle installation.
Read more at //archive.commercialmotor.com/

Peter Williamson

Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd
1964
AEC Regent V
Roe H41/32F

The Doncaster area seemed to have had more than its fair share of independents and here is another one Blue Ensign. There first route was from Rossington to Doncaster Yorkshire in 1920. I think the reason for the number of independents was all the mining towns in the area and as Blue Ensign they start by running one route to Doncaster. Blue Ensign I think was more as the name suggests a coach operator rather than bus as they only purchased 3 more buses after the one above before selling out to South Yorkshire PTE on the 1^st April 1978.

This vehicle still exists although it is now open top at the Sinsheim Transport Museum, Germany.

James Race

Blue Ensign ran from a depot in the centre of Doncaster and had a fleet of six vehicles – 3 coaches and three double deckers, latterly 3 Fleetlines.
The double decks were used on the jointly operated Rossington service and were finished in an immaculate livery of blue and cream with gold lining and stainless steel wheel trims

Andrew

My Grandmother "Molly" was a Clippy for Blue Ensign for many years. Grand mother is the only existing member of the crew now. Many days of our childhood were spent sat onboard the bus and meeting the regular passengers that used it. I recall that the busses were all kept immaculate, and the staff were very proud to be part of Blue Ensign. Grandma also arranged several trips and holidays around Britain with their coaches, particularly Teignmouth Devon stopping at a London Hotel, Lake Windermere, Scotland, Blackpool lights, and Woburn Abbey. These are wonderful memory’s.

Gary

Until the 1960s Doncaster was an absolute Mecca for enthusiasts of quality vehicles and operators of character and pride. Many’s the Saturday a group of us from the Leeds area would travel south, and spend a happy afternoon at the Christ Church terminus revelling in the variety to be seen and heard. We also used to take refreshments in the cafe there where, from the chatter of the many crews, we could really absorb the atmosphere of this once fascinating locality.

Chris Youhill

26/04/11 – 07:22

Yesterday sadly my Grandmother Molly passed away. Grandma spent many many years has a clippy for the Blue Ensign I am very proud of my Grandma to be part of the Blue Ensign Rossington bus service. She will be sadly missed by myself and her family.

Mollys Grandson

26/04/11 – 07:24

I’m sorry to read about your Grandma Gary – all the elements of the grand, proud old bus operators are dwindling fast nowadays sadly. I spent my happiest years working for Samuel Ledgard of Leeds – larger of course than the Doncaster area firms and with five depots and 100 + vehicles but the same proud spirit of service nevertheless. The Firm sold out on 14th October 1967 and so there are very few of us left now of course, but along with your Grandmother and the rest we proudly provided a reliable service which is sadly missed today.

Chris Youhill

27/04/11 – 07:23

Sorry to hear this- my condolences.
I remember these buses in that immaculate livery: not easy to maintain on those (then) filthy roads with their covering of slurry from the coal wagons.

Joe

18/06/11 – 07:44

I lived in Doncaster towards the end of this magnificently kept vehicles stay with Blue Ensign. We used to travel to school on her every day – and yes, I remember Molly. They (759 NDT, 3568 DT & PDT 497E) were always immaculate – no matter what the weather. I was really sad to see the Regents go – the Daimler replacements were never the same – and then the PTE marched in and bought the company. I rode on the last bus Blue Ensign ran as an independent – a really sad night.

Peter

18/06/11 – 09:19

Too true Peter – the "last nights" of these wonderful proud independent operators are too sad for words. There is always a strange feeling, earlier in the day, that the end has already come and that the final journeys are not "real."

Chris Youhill

18/06/11 – 18:19

Pre M1/M18 the Oldfield clan regularly made pilgrimages to the East Coast – normally Scarborough – via Rotherham and Doncaster. It was at such time that I came into most regular contact with the famous Doncaster Independents.
The blessed C H Roe was the most common sight, but variously on AEC, Daimler, Guy or Leyland chassis. My favourites were the AECs but, as Peter said, anything not half cab was a step down in both quality and character. Fleetlines (and Atlanteans) were the first step on the slippery slope to modern "efficient, characterless sewing-machines" (my quote).
The only thing worse was the total destruction, for purely political reasons, of viable operators, up and down the land, of the like of the Doncaster Independents. Progress and change are not always bad, quite the opposite, but it seems always to be the case where the bus industry is concerned. lets fly the Ensign!

David Oldfield

12/04/12 – 06:00

Passing through Doncaster at the weekend, I stopped off for an hour and had a wander round to Cleveland Street and I can report that the old Blue Ensign depot still stands to this day although it’s in a sorry state now, fenced off and semi-derelict. There is a small square building at the front of the yard which I believe was their administration block and booking office for excursions and private hire. Thirty Four years after being taken over, a reminder still exists of a much loved independent whose fleet was always immaculately presented and a credit to the industry!

Chris Barker

03/08/14 – 07:40

There’s a colour picture of 3568 DT at //www.sct61.org.uk/zz3568dta  looking absolutely GLORIOUS!
Though I grew up in a red and cream area, for some reason I’ve always been partial to blue buses (Alexander Midland, Bradford, 70’s Brighton), but this one tops the lot.
By the way, does anyone know whether the upper and lower window surrounds were actually two different colours ("white" and "cream"), or is it just a trick of the light in this picture?

Graham Woods

15/06/16 – 06:16

Graham,
It is a trick of the light, it was the same shade of cream at both upper and lower deck windows.

Peter Beevers

10/07/21 – 05:34

Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd was owned by my great grandfather George Ennifer who I am named after. I’m not sure if anybody will see this comment but it has been lovely reading the history and your memories of his company. It has brought me great joy, thank you!

George Ennifer-Stanley

12/07/21 – 16:18

So glad that you found the postings joyful, George. Rest assured that many of the folk who have an interest in this wonderful website will have seen your post. I hope you have clicked on Graham Woods’ link to see the aforementioned bus in full colour!

Chris Hebbron

County Motors
1964
Leyland Titan PD3A/1
Roe H42/31F

Another County Motors of Huddersfield vehicle this time a Leyland Titan PD3A/1. The PD3 indicated that the bus was 30 foot long rather than 27 foot of which all the PD2s were. The A after the 3 indicates an enclosed radiator made mainly of fibre glass and this style was introduced after consultation with St Helens Corporation. The 1 after the 3A indicates that the gear box was of the normal synchromesh type rather than the Pneumo-Cyclic direct selection type. 
County Motors were taken over by Yorkshire Traction in 1968 and this bus became fleet number 745 with them. There is a photo of this bus in the Yorkshire Traction livery here unfortunately it seems to have lost the bottom half of its radiator.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

———

Re the comment about the radiator grill. These were only a fibreglass moulding and were prone to being broken – for example by conductors standing on them to change the destination. Yorkshire Traction simply modified them when necessary by substituting a mesh panel instead.

Andrew

———

This was one of a pair of PD3As which replaced a pair of ill fated Guy Wulfrunians which went to West Riding. Yorkshire Traction bought PD3s with Northern Counties or Willowbrook bodies. However a 1965 batch carried Roe bodywork to a Park Royal design similar to those supplied on AEC chassis to East Kent. The Yorkshire Traction livery suited the lines of the Roe body and these were a pair of handsome machines

Chris Hough

———

Handsome indeed – but they were traditional Roe bodies!
Yorkshire Traction only ever had three batches of PD3s from new. The first two Northern Counties, the last the Roes (on Park Royal frames) – which still managed to look better proportioned than the almost identical contemporary Sheffield Regent Vs with "real" Park Royal bodies.
The only Willowbrook deckers in the fleet were the RHE…G registered Atlanteans which were a diverted order from Devon General, delivered initially in Devon General livery.

David Oldfield

———

David, I seem to remember that there were four of the diverted Devon General Atlanteans. They appeared very frequently in Leeds on the Yorkshire Traction services and I found them fascinating. The colours were most pleasing and, although I never rode on one, I have an impression that the interiors and the seats were in blue – can anyone please confirm this ??

Chris Youhill

———

I think you’re right about the numbers, Chris, and almost certainly about the interiors. Blue was the then standard for Devon General. Prior to nationalisation, Devon General was a superbly presented fleet and the difference in shades of red and cream between Devon General and Yorkshire Traction made an interesting comparison.

David Oldfield