County Borough of Darlington Transport Department
1953
Guy Arab III 5LW
Roe B41C

The small operation of Darlington Corporation does not seem to be mentioned on the Website.
I have only been to the town once back in 1968. I took just one photo probably as it was unusual even in those days to see a passenger ready to leave the centre entrance whilst the bus was still in motion. A single deck Guy Arab III was also unusual for me.
I have recently rediscovered this old slide taken with a very basic camera, I hope it may be of interest.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton

13/08/15 – 08:15

I don’t think the Roe West Riding Red AEC’s had doors to their centre entrances, either. This made the rear saloon a chilly place- and as you suggest the elfansafety doesn’t bear thinking about- the step backwards system of alighting from a moving bus platform was impossible and twisting sideways must have been just right to fall against the rear wheels. End of an era, here.

Joe

13/08/15 – 08:51

I attach a bought slide of a Swindon Daimler CV single decker with a similar centre entrance/exit arrangement. How popular was it, exactly? I know some of Blackpool ones in the 1930s, and we all know about their PD2/5 fleet, but single deckers like this seem very rare.

Pete Davies

13/08/15 – 11:53

Not centre-entrance and a decker, but London Transport’s Country Area STL’s posed the same hazards as the other two vehicles. LPTB’s 1936 (ex-STL 1470) offering was lauded by them as ‘draught-free’, a statement, from personal experience, I heartily disagreed with, despite the angled front bulkhead and rear partition to entrance! Note the staircase opposite the entrance. LINK: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

13/08/15 – 13:55

Joe, I think the West Riding centre-entrance Regents had doors. However, like you, I also remember being cold in their rear saloons so they probably spent most of their time open (to save the conductors’ time).
This photo seems to show the door in a closed position. //www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number5402.asp  Some photos suggest they were double doors, hinged outwardly opening. If only 111 had survived beyond early preservation.

Paul Haywood

13/08/15 – 14:40

Municipal conservatism at work with these Guys? By 1953 underfloor engined saloons were well established and virtually the norm so these purchases seem a bit of an anachronism. Doncaster and Burnley, Colne and Nelson were other operators that stuck to half-cab single deckers well into the 1950’s with BCN taking PS2 Tigers right up to 1955. More examples of those little things that make our hobby so interesting.

Philip Halstead

14/08/15 – 11:51

Hunter of Seaton Delaval had two TS7 Leyland Tigers, JR 4901, from 1935, and JR 6600, 1936: both Burlingham B35F. In 1953 and 54 respectively, they were rebodied by Roe as B39C, they were very similar to this Darlington example, but differed slightly in that they had doors which were flush with the side of the bus when shut, but I cant for the life of me remember if they were two single doors, or a two piece folding type. The only thing that let them down, was that they had been rebodied as 8ft on a 7’6" chassis, which tended to make them look a bit unbalanced.

Ronnie Hoye

16/08/15 – 06:35

Must have been a job keeping them clean,,,,

Mike

16/08/15 – 06:36

The last conventional half-cab saloons (both complete buses and new bodies for old chassis) date from 1955, after which only a few specialised vehicles were built on chassis normally bodied as double-deckers – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon, eight Regent Vs for South Wales Transport and two more as non-PSVs registered in Leeds.

Geoff Kerr

01/09/15 – 07:43

Rotherham Corporation ran a large fleet of Bristol L5G and L6B buses mostly with central entrance. FET 821 f/n 121 was one of the last delivered in 1951 with an East Lancs body and makes an interesting contrast to the standard ECW bodies which never -to my knowledge – offered this option. It was photographed in 1970 in Carlisle clearly on a school outing but from where and who was the operator- perhaps owned by the school itself?

Keith Newton

02/09/15 – 07:02

Keith, thanks for John Kaye who gave me this information regarding Rotherham 121 (above).
It was withdrawn by Rotherham in September 1968 it is recorded with Army Cadet Force, Dearne Valley Area, Wath (later Wakefield) in January 1969 and sold for scrap 1970.

Paul Haywood

02/09/15 – 07:03

This bus appeared on the SCT61 site and the discussion following the photographs gives some explanation as to why the bus would have been in Carlisle: //www.sct61.org.uk/rr121

David Beilby

Priory Coaches (Gosport)
1935
Bedford WTL
Duple C20F

Here we have a Bedford WTL with Duple C20F bodywork from 1935. She is seen in the livery of Cyril Cowdray (Priory Coaches) of Gosport, another operator put off the road after upsetting the Traffic Commissioner once too often. She was new to Blunt, Mitcham, and spent some time on the Isle Of Man as CMN 986 before returning to the UK. The scene is an Open Day at the Provincial depot, Hoeford, on 8 June 1985.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

10/08/15 – 11:24

This coach has been with J. W. Lodge & Sons of High Easter for some years undergoing a thorough rebuild however I think it was put to one side while they were restoring their Ford T. I believe that their ultimate aim is to have a representative vehicle from each decade that the company has been operating. Since they are well in to their tenth decade that’s quite a fleet of historic vehicles!

Nigel Turner

10/08/15 – 16:04

Thank you, Nigel. Yes, it will be a VERY impressive collection when they decide that it’s complete. "Now, have we room in the garage for another OB?"

Pete Davies

11/08/15 – 16:49

Pete,
The whole Lodge operation is very impressive and a credit to the three generations who have built it up over the last 95 years. I have no idea why I referred to them restoring a Ford T in my earlier comment, it is a 1926 Chevrolet

Nigel Turner

25/06/20 – 07:19

Lodge are still very active, but their vintage fleet now consists of Bedfords’ OB, SB, YMT and said Chervolet Charabanc. Sadly, no mention of the WTB.

Chris Hebbron

27/06/20 – 06:44

The WTB project was on display at an event at Lodge’s premises on 24 March 2019. At the time there was a lot of work to do on the vehicle.

David Slater

28/06/20 – 06:56

"I was intrigued about the Bedford WTL chassis, as it seems to have led a rather shadowy life. There is little written about it, either, but some research revealed the following.
The first Bedford chassis designed for PSV use was the WHB, built from 1931 to 1933, for a 14-seat body. Only 102 were ever sold. The larger WLB chassis quickly followed, with greater success, with over 2000 built between 1931 and 1938, when production ceased.
The WTL chassis was a three-ton lorry chassis, modified to sell as a still-larger PSV, but was not popular as a passenger vehicle in any great numbers, initially with just over 200 being built as such in its first two years, 1935 and 1936, but, nevertheless, it soldiered to receive passenger bodies in penny numbers until 1939. One’s or two’s describe the numbers bought by most operators, although, in 1935, Vauxhall had at least four in use for staff transport, Walter Alexander bought five and at least eight were exported to the Netherlands. Bodybuilders were varied, with small orders using Robson, Thurgood, Wilmott and Willowbrook, Unsurprisingly, however, the majority were bodied by Duple, although, in 1939, several of them were bodied by Plaxton. Those which went to the Netherlands were bodied by two firms, Werkspoor (Amsterdam) and Jurgens.
The WTL could, in retrospect, be considered a stop-gap chassis, its far more successful compatriot being the three feet longer WTB, introduced in late 1935..
However, the WTL (as well as the WTB) chassis were upgraded in 1938, which included an all-metal cab area with redesigned front wings. The radiator grill/bonnet area became rounded and modern-looking, foretelling the future OB front, minus radiator cap!. Engine power was increased from 64 to 72bhp."

Chris Hebbron

28/06/20 – 10:01

One little titbit I omitted from my post of 28/06/20 was that the redesign of the front ends in 1938 was a joint venture with Duple.

Chris Hebbron

28/06/20 – 10:03

BXM 568 Bedford WTL Duple C20F chassis No 875523 body No 5058
New to W E Blunt t/a Mitcham Belle, Mitcham 6/35
5/38 B B Atkinson, Douglas, IoM re reg as CMN 986
4/39 J W A Wightman, Onchan, IoM t/a Sunny Hours Coaches
9/61 L Q Keen, Douglas, IoM (not operated)
4/62 Kirkby Central, Anston (dealer) reverted to BXM 568
5/68 G A Arnold, Holmesfield (preservation)
11/71 Geoffrey Pitt t/a Doug Jones Coaches, Littleton
-/73 Howard Herridge, Gosport (preservation)
-/75 C Cowdrey t/a Priory Coaches, Gosport (later stored in Mid Hants railway yard at Medstead)
6/93 Ray Dodds, Fareham (preservation)
circa -/03 Len Carter, Fareham (dealer) but not moved from Ray Dodds premises)
2/08 Lodge Coaches, High Easter for restoration & eventual return to service in Heritage Fleet.

John Wakefield

02/06/21 – 08:48

I thought this might be of interest to visitors to this site, a newspaper article which appeared in the Fraserburgh Hearld and New Counties Advertiser, 13 January 1931. The article relates to my Gt.Gt Grandfather George Jaffray from Rosehearty, Fraserburgh, who was a master joiner and local businessman. George was fined 25 shillings in the first case of its kind in the Sheriffs Court, for allowing a motor omnibus for which he owned to ply for hire without having painted in conspicuous place the total number of passengers which the vehicle was allowed to carry.

Clive Taylor

Copyright R F Mack

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son)
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
Leyland B44F

The attached Photograph dating back to the 1950 show HAV 384 in Barnsley Bus station preparing to depart for Pontefract on the Ideal service route run jointly with H Wray & Son. This vehicle was new to Simpsons of Rosehearty before being acquired by Taylors. The driver is Dennis Taylor, his older brother Len also drove. This was in fact one of the buses used on my school run on a morning and tea time to the High School and Kings School in Pontefract. This involved 5 buses on the morning and afternoon run. The morning being the worst as I lived in a village which was the last port of call into Pontefract and 1 of the 5 was the service bus you would put your hand out and eventually one would stop. Although the service ran in all weathers its time keeping was not what you would call excellent. It left the top of my village at 10 to the hour and arrived any time between 20 to and 10 past. You could always guarantee a place on the last bus from Pontefract on a Saturday night. They never left any one, a 35 seater was stopped by the police one night and 72 occupants alighted!!!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn

06/08/15 – 05:50

Mention of packed last buses brings to mind the apocryphal story of the last Pennine bus from Skipton which had a passenger sat alongside the engine on the near side mudguard!

Chris Hough

06/08/15 – 05:52

How very interesting! Thank you for posting this. It raises a little query which, perhaps, ought to be in the "Q&A" section.
I have a bought slide of JWF 885, an Albion CX13, which was listed in my source’s catalogue as belonging to Ideal, Wray & Son, of Harrogate. We’re not talking of the same firm here, I suppose. Are we?

Pete Davies

06/08/15 – 07:54

Pete the Wrays of Harrogate I think were based at Starbeck, they were mainly a coach operation if I remember right. They sold out to Eddie Brown. H. Wray of the Ideal service were based in Lord Street Hoyle Mill Barnsley, where I think it was the 4pm out of Barnsley used to stop to fill up complete with passengers before continuing on its route.

Brian Lunn

06/08/15 – 11:22

Thank you, Brian. I thought my assorted sources might be wrong – again.

Pete Davies

06/08/15 – 11:22

JWF 885 belonged to France (Ideal Motor Services), Market Weighton, East Yorkshire.

David Hick

06/08/15 – 11:23

JWF 885 was new to Baldry of Sancton in 7/51 it passed to France’s Motors T/A Ideal of Market Weighton in 1/54, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire.
JWF was a Albion FT39N with Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body!!
Ideal is still operating today, but is now part of York Pullman, but is kept as a separate business still in its original green livery

Mike Davies

06/08/15 – 11:24

I’m a little puzzled here: I thought that Leyland gave up building single deck bodies, in favour of just double deck ones, as a peacetime decision, at least until it had to with the Leyland National/Lynx. Am I wrong, or was this a one-off demonstrator?

Chris Hebbron

06/08/15 – 15:40

Hi CH
There are 5 pictures of post war Leyland bodied SDs on SCT ’61 photo index Body Builder-Leyland picture number 249 onwards plus more further down.

John Lomas

07/08/15 – 07:17

I read an item on Simpsons and they received three of these Tigers HAV384/5/6 There is a photo on flicker of HAV386 I also understand that the 3 were mentioned in the Leyland Bus book, however I am unable to check this as I am in the process of sorting my book storage and I can not put my had on the book in question.

Brian Lunn

07/08/15 – 07:17

Interesting to read Mike Davies’ comment about JWF 885 having a Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body. The PSV Circle records it as Barnaby but I have a recollection of visiting France at Market Weighton some 40 years ago and seeing it with a Scottish Aviation body sticker. For all that time I’ve thought I must have been mistaken but here is some other evidence that points that way.
Answers on a postcard.

John Carr

07/08/15 – 07:18

Brian, it was W. Pyne & Sons who were based in Starbeck (on Camwal Road) and their white and purple coaches were a familiar sight around the area for many years. Wray’s operated from their garage at Dacre Banks, which is between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge. Their coaches usually had ‘Wray’s of Summerbridge" on the rear however – Summerbridge being a larger village, literally just over the River Nidd from Dacre Banks. (Presumably Wray’s felt people would know where Summerbridge was, but might not with Dacre Banks!). Wray’s livery was mid-grey, greeny-grey and red, and the firm’s coaches could often be seen in the summer months with windscreen stickers proclaiming "On Hire To West Yorkshire". Indeed, some of their distinctive coaches could be often be seen parked on the forecourt of WY’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate. At one time Wray’s fleet included a Yeates-bodied AEC Reliance and Yeates-bodied Bedford SB, whose flamboyant styling provided an interesting contrast as they rubbed shoulders with the classic lines of WY’s ECW-bodied LS, MW and RE coaches.

Brendan Smith

07/08/15 – 07:19

There is more info for W Pyne & Son Starbeck at this link

Peter

07/08/15 – 09:21

Thanks Brendan for the correction, I remember now. I should have twigged as I travelled past their garage at Dacre Banks often. I do remember seeing the "On hire to West Yorkshire" as you say in the busy period.

Brian Lunn

07/08/15 – 17:07

Chris, your comments re Leyland single deck bodies prompted me to plough through my old issues of Classic Bus as something rang a bell (issue 5, June-July 1993). You are right that Leyland did focus on only double deck bodies immediately post war, due to the huge demand for them at the time. This lead to the successful Farington body in 1950 which was built until 1954. The single deck bodies came about following the integral Olympic project in 1949, in conjunction with MCW. After that they produced two standardised single deck bodies for the Royal Tiger, the familiar all metal, centre entrance coach body from 1950, and the rather angular bus version from 1951. Nothing followed for the Tiger Cub so, as you have stated, next in line was the National, nearly two decades later.

Mike Morton

08/08/15 – 09:24

The photo of HAV 384 could only have been taken in the mid-1960s, since Simpsons themselves were running it well into the decade.
There were only two vehicles in the batch, HAV 384 and HAV 385 – the latter operated for Garner, Bridge of Weir after service with Simpsons.
‘HAV 386’ was an invention of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group, the vehicle which has appeared in photographs showing that registration was really ERN 709, originally Ribble 386, later with UTA/Ulsterbus.
Talking of Wrays of Dacre Banks, didn’t they too finish up somewhere in the Knaresborough area? Whether or not it was Starbeck I don’t know, I don’t know the area all that well.

David Call

08/08/15 – 10:18

Well, this does get confusing. I’m glad I asked. I’m attaching a view of my bought slide, which doesn’t look to have a very green livery to me, unless it’s a combination of scanning a bought slide which may or may not have rendered the original properly, and my less than pristine eyesight. As noted in my original comment, it was listed as a CX13.
Chris, Leyland built large numbers of bodies in both bus and coach form on the Royal Tiger, many of them for Ribble. They finally gave up body building in about 1953. My understanding has always been that they were too busy on chassis to afford to have anyone on building bodies. Look under Pennine in the operators section in the column on the left of the page for a view of the demonstrator Royal Tiger coach. I believe Baxters of Airdrie had a former demonstrator in bus form.

Pete Davies

08/08/15 – 15:32

Pete, I think the Baxter’s vehicle you have in mind would be NTJ 985, but it wasn’t an ex-demonstrator, it had been new to Corless of Charnock Richard. After the takeover of Baxter’s by Eastern Scottish it ran in the latter’s livery for a while. //www.sct61.org.uk/xb107

David Call

09/08/15 – 06:40

Thank you, David. Now, any other words of advice from anyone about JWF?

Pete Davies

09/08/15 – 09:57

Thanks, Mike M & Pete D for reminding me of Leyland’s coach version of the Royal Tigers’ body, which I DO recall now, working for Southdown. I never remember seeing the bus version, perhaps because they tended to be and stay ‘oop North’!

Chris Hebbron

10/08/15 – 05:43

There’s a photo of JWF at https://www.flickr.com/photos/ which says it’s an FT39N with Scottish Aviation 31-seat body. In view of the size I would definitely rule out CX13, and although I have never before seen a Scottish Aviation body with a curved window line (the windows don’t look very happy, so perhaps it’s the only one they built!), the trimmings do look exactly like theirs.

Peter Williamson

10/08/15 – 11:23

Thank you, Peter W!

Pete Davies

18/08/15 – 05:40

The two buses HAV 384 and 385 left the Simpson fleet in March 1961 and October 1960.
HAV 384 going directly to Taylor of Cudworth part of the Ideal consortium. They sold the vehicle to Mellers of Goxhill in October 1967. It operated for them until October 1968.
HAV 385 went directly to Garner of Bridge of Weir in October 1960 and then to Tiger Coaches of Salsburgh in March 1967.
From my own notes and checked with the PSV Circle publication SAD1, pre war operators in Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire.

Stephen Bloomfield

18/08/15 – 10:36

It seems I was a few years out in my estimation of when Simpson’s disposed of HAV384 – anyway, at least it wasn’t in the 1950s.
Does anyone know why Simpson’s sold HAV 384/5 at such an early age? A year or two later they were buying secondhand Royal Tigers of similar vintage. //public.fotki.com/boballoa/1/

David Call