Sheffield Corporation
1948
AEC Regal I
Weymann B34R

A few early post war Sheffield single deckers found their way to Contractors on withdrawal and this example is with H Camm. It is seen on the car park near Pond Street Bus Station in 1963. The bus would have been a regular performer on Peak District services during its Sheffield career, particularly on the 37 to Bakewell and the 84 to Buxton as it was a C fleet bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

09/03/16 – 15:23

I’m surprised not to have seen a comment yet on this fine vehicle, so here goes! This AEC demonstrates that the designers of a really good-looking vehicle put function in very first place, but also let a good eye dictate the details, all of which they’ve achieved to perfection. Interesting that this posting comes so soon after Roger Cox’s unearthing of that poor Austin K3 with its April Fool Nightmare "coachwork"—which I hope one day turns out not to be by Bush and Twiddy. I’ve always found buses far more interesting than coaches simply because there’s so much less scope for "stylists" to let their imagination run riot on a vehicle that has to meet as many demanding criteria as a service bus must.

Ian Thompson

15/03/16 – 06:22

Yes Ian and Ian, splendid buses that stir childhood memories for me on the Bakewell 40 via Calver Sough and 84 Buxton. Living at Ecclesall, as a small child I was occasionally treated to a trip to Bakewell with my mother and of course the favoured seat would be at the front behind the engine and the heater.

As far as I can remember, this batch buses had the whopping Clayton Heaters affixed to the bulkhead but I may be wrong as I don’t remember any other post-war buses carrying these heaters.

John Darwent

17/03/16 – 05:08

I think most if not all early post war single deckers for Sheffield JOC (B&C fleets) had the Clayton bulkhead heater fitted. I too travelled on these to Buxton and Bakewell and on similar PS1/PS2 on the Manchester services. Do you remember this type of bus being fitted with rear wheel chains to cope with snowy weather? They made one hell of a noise on Ecclesall Road.

Ian Wild

26/03/16 – 05:05

As a teenager in the mid 60’s I made the trip from Denton (east of Manchester) to Sheffield on the 39. A leisurely ride including a break at the Snake Inn. I was always fascinated by the blind which showed "Sheffield via Ashopton" but I could never work out where was Ashopton. It was only some time later that I discovered that Ashopton together with Derwent were drowned villages and lay at the bottom of the Ladybower reservoirs but nobody had bothered to update the destination blinds. I note Ian Wild’s comment that PS1/PS2 were used on the Manchester services: I am sure that the bus I rode on that day was an AEC because the radiator caught my attention. There were no AECs in the part of Manchester where I lived at that time. Could it have been a one-off allocation I wonder?

David Revis

27/03/16 – 16:35

David, I suspect that your memory serves you well. In some personal memories of Dennis E Vickers, a former Sheffield bus operator and enthusiast, he well remembers one of his first journeys over The Snake (Route 39) on an ageing Sheffield 1947 AEC Regal 1, sitting behind the large circular heater on the front bulkhead of the rear entrance half-cab saloon as it whined and rattled over the moors.

John Darwent

29/03/16 – 07:01

Hello John, thank you for your confirmation that AEC’s did work the 39. The photo at the head of this thread is definitely the type I rode in. It would be good if someone could provide a photo of this type in Sheffield colours…..please.
I did make an error in my original post: it was the mid 50’s and not the mid 60’s when I made that trip. Sheffield still had trams running then Are the personal memories by Dennis Vickers in book form or can they be accessed on the internet?

David Revis

02/04/16 – 07:05

Copyright Unknown

Here’s a picture of a couple of Sheffield’s Regals David. As far as the memories are concerned, they are neither in book form nor on the net unfortunately. They were a short article in an amateur periodical of a local enthusiasts society many years ago. If you will let me have an email address, I will happily send you a scan of the rather faded ‘remains’ of the article.

John Darwent

03/04/16 – 07:32

A very interesting Sheffield 54 ex demo AEC.

Ken Wragg

04/04/16 – 06:39

John, Many thanks for digging out the photo: it is much appreciated. It also confirms my boyhood opinion that even in 1957 (I think) they looked so old fashioned.

Ken, an interesting photo indeed. It looks as if it’s a half-canopy front; would that have been unique to Sheffield I wonder?

David Revis

05/04/16 – 06:45

I have no idea whether this bus is a half canopy or not it is a photo from my great uncle Frank Brindley a freelance press photographer who took a lot of bad weather photos all I know is this bus was a AEC demo bus.

Ken Wragg

08/04/16 – 06:21

Photo Courtesy of the Tom Robinson Collection

Quite right David, Sheffield’s Weymann/Regal 1 No. 54 was indeed a half-canopy front and as such was unique in the Sheffield fleet. The late Charles Hall FCIT in his Sheffield Transport ‘bible’ stated that this was a demonstrator ‘on loan’ from January 1940 until brought into the fleet in December of that year as number 54. It was believed to have been at the last Pre-War Commercial Motor Show. 54 was apparently a well-liked and reliable vehicle, lasting until 1955 in service before being converted into a canteen bus with withdrawal coming in January 1961.

John Darwent

08/04/16 – 16:54

I bet they were glad to grab it while they could.

Chris Hebbron

London Transport
1946
Guy Arab II 5LW
Park Royal H30/26R

Here we have a Guy Arab II with a Park Royal H56R body, new to London Transport. This vehicle is part of the London Bus Preservation Trust collection, formerly at Cobham but now at Brooklands. Once more, we have a difference of information between Jenkinson and PSVC2012. Jenkinson says it has a UH56R body and dates from 1945, while the PSVC does not mention the utility element and says it dates from 1946. I’m sure that they cannot both be right, unless it was built in 1945 but did not enter service until 1946. Someone out there will know no doubt!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

03/03/16 – 15:02

It looks like a utility to me,although possibly one of the ‘relaxed’ utility batch judging by the number of opening windows.

David Wragg

03/03/16 – 15:04

According to Ken Glazier’s London Bus File, G351 was taken into stock on 5 January 1946. Bodies constructed in 1945 were to relaxed Austerity specification with rounded front and rear domes.

John Gibson

03/03/16 – 15:05

Pete, according to the excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website, many of these Park Royal/NCB Utility-specification buses (G319-G357) didn’t enter service until January/February/March 1946. G351 is documented as entering service in February 1946. There can be little doubt that they were in fact built in late 1945 to wartime specifications, but it depends on which date we prefer to use.

Paul Haywood

03/03/16 – 15:06

I seem to have omitted the location and date when I submitted this to Peter for consideration: Wisley Airfield, on 5 April 2009.

Pete Davies

04/03/16 – 05:53

The unimpeachable authority on this subject is Ken Blacker’s book ‘London’s Utility Buses’. The final LT consignment of Park Royal H30/26R bodies on Guy Arab II chassis was delivered in two batches. G319 to 357 arrived at Chiswick between 17 November 1945 and 3 March 1946. G351 itself was accepted into stock on 3 January 1946, which certainly means that it was constructed in the last weeks of 1945. G431 to 435, the final batch of these buses and London Transport’s very last utility Guys, were accepted between 18 and 30 March 1946, and probably were built earlier in that year. G319 to 339 retained the old sliding mesh gearbox with ‘back to front’ gear lever positions and the two plate clutch inherited from the pre war Arab model. Those from G340 onwards had the new constant mesh gearbox with conventional selector positions coupled with a single plate clutch, a specification that was carried forward into the postwar Arab III. The Park Royal bodies on these last LPTB Guys made no concessions in appearance whatsoever towards the relaxed utility specifications by then prevailing. Even the stark upper deck front ventilators were retained after Weymann and Northern Counties had abandoned this feature. In fact the only ‘relaxations’ incorporated were tubular framed (cushioned) seats and winding windows. The complete vehicle with its composite construction bodywork weighed 7 tons 5 cwts, compared with 7 tons 6 cwts for the last Weymann bodied London Guy utilities and 7 tons 13 cwts for the excellent metal framed Northern Counties Arabs. All the London Transport Arabs had been withdrawn by December 1952, the newest then being just over six years old, though the indifferent quality of construction materials was evident in bodywork deterioration. Upon its sale by LT, HGC 130, the former G351, went in 1953 to the very satisfied Guy Arab operator, Burton-on-Trent Corporation who had the bodywork refurbished by Roe. Burton then ran it until withdrawal in 1967, after which it thankfully found its way into preservation.

Here are some pictures of this bus taken during the HCVC Brighton runs between 1969 and 1972 by which time some sag in the body waistrail was beginning to become evident.

Roger Cox

04/03/16 – 06:44

Thank you, gents, for your thoughts on the true date of this bus.

Pete Davies

07/03/16 – 06:23

Age apart, it is one of the most attractive utilities I have seen, only those from Southdown come anywhere near. It just shows that a good livery can lift even a mundane design.

David Wragg

27/08/17 – 09:08

I was the very lucky person who purchased G351, or Burton 70 as it was then, in 1967. I met Reg Stack a former Park Royal employee and he stated that the body was built in October 1945 and it was delivered to London Transport in November 1945, thus to my mind it is a 1945 vehicle but of course some of the ‘anoraks’ would insist that it was a 1946 vehicle. I presently own two Guy Arabs that were first licensed on the 1st January 1956 and again the ‘anoraks’ insist that they are 1956 vehicles. All I can say is that Guy Motors and Park Royal were very clever in constructing two chassis and bodies in one day and delivering to their operator!!!

John Lines

13/02/21 – 07:23

As an old Burtonian I remember HGC 130 shortly after it was integrated into the Burton Corporation fleet. It was purchased from LT along with five other utility 5LW Arab IIs, probably in 1953, and added to Burton’s modest fleet of utility Arab IIs and immediate post war Arab IIIs, all 5LW. The ex LT buses were numbered 65-70 in the Burton fleet, and were slightly different from the Burton Arab IIs in that they had smaller headlights and rails along the underside of the body, which the Burton buses didn’t have. All had Park Royal bodies except 66 which was Weymann. All the ex-LT buses were refurbished before being put out to service, and I read somewhere that the refurbishment costs exceeded the purchase cost of the original buses. They all mostly kept their utility look throughout their life, except 68 which was alleged to have collided with a low bridge not long after it arrived in Burton, and this may explain why it acquired a more modern looking front upper deck section compared to earlier. Nearly all the ex-LT buses lasted longer than the original Burton utility Arab IIs and were withdrawn 1964 to 1967. Finally as far as HGC130 or Burton 70 as I knew it, I travelled on it many times in service, and probably thought nothing much of it at the time, it was just another old bus, but would never have imagined that over 50 years on it would be preserved, and certainly in better condition than when I used it.

Old Burtonian

H. A. Vincent (Popular Coaches) Thorncombe Dorset
1949
Seddon Mk 4
Santus C30F

DPR 518 is a Seddon Mk 4 with a Santus (the Uncle Joe’s Mint Ball family of Wigan) bodywork to a C30F format. It was new to H. A. Vincent in 1949 and is seen in the depot yard at Mallard Road, Bournemouth, during an open day on 22 May 1983. I am not sure if this vehicle is still on the restoration scene or not, if it isn’t, a lot has been lost.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/02/16 – 15:28

According to an article in Classic Bus a few years ago the Santus family of the bodybuilders is unconnected with the Mint Balls family. I seem to remember that this was mentioned before on this site too, although my memory isn’t good enough to say on which thread! I last saw this vehicle at a Potteries rally in 1995, so it survived at least until then. Does anybody have a more recent siting? I hope so, despite all the dreadful things that people say about both the Seddon Mk 4 chassis and Santus’ post-war bodywork. I’ve heard the former described as "not fit to carry coal" and the latter as "made from poorly seasoned rot". Good luck to whichever preservationist now has this deceptively attractive vehicle!

Neville Mercer

28/02/16 – 15:55

I think the thread you mean Neville is this Vics Tours (Isles of Scilly) – Bedford OB  although that thread has a reference to this thread regarding Santus Leon Motor Services – Leyland Lion – JP 42  hope this helps.

Peter

29/02/16 – 06:19

I researched the Santus family a while back on the FindMyPast website. The surname Santus is a very uncommon one and the majority of them were concentrated in the Wigan area, yet I could not find any link between the coachbuilder and the Uncle Joe’s Mintballs family as far back as the early 19th Century, though there may still have been a connection going back before that period. It seems likely that Santus may have been an Anglicised version of the Hispanic Santos name.

John Stringer

29/02/16 – 08:48

A little further research shows that it was still around when the PSVC listing for 2012 was compiled. I’m not sure how I managed to miss the entry!

Pete Davies

01/03/16 – 16:21

Wonderful rare vehicle this, and I too hope it is still around, as would Herb Vincent I’m sure, the vehicle features in a lovely little book…
Herb Vincent Charabanc and Motor Bus Proprietor superb title of a proud local operator.
It was written and produced by John W Watts as a tribute to Herb Vincent and is a must read, and a social history of a rural coach company if it is still available.
The book text states that Herb Vincent retired in 1976 and sadly died April 1987

Mark Mc Alister

02/03/16 – 06:30

Below is a link to an superficially similar Seddon whose bodybuilder has eluded me. Any help appreciated: www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Allcroft

02/03/16 – 06:31

Mark, Many thanks for the referral to the book. I have submitted already a view of AJT176, but I’ve no idea when [or if] Peter will publish it.

Pete Davies

02/03/16 – 13:23

HFG 666 in Stephen Allcroft’s link has a body by KW Bispham according to Scottish Area records.

John Kaye

02/03/16 – 15:22

John, Thank you very much for that. I suppose I hadn’t thought of KW as I associate them with rebodies like the one at this link.

Stephen Allcroft

07/09/17 – 07:34

I have viewed the comments about the Santus name and would like to correct some of the past information. I was born and bred in Standish Lancashire and my Father worked on the shop floor,both as coachbuilder and shop manager, of Santus Motor Bodies between 1935-45. I have recently looked up the history of Santus in the Wigan Museum. Thomas Santus started the company in 1906 as a wheelwright and by 1914 was repairing waggons etc. During the 1920’s and 30’s Santus built up a reputation for quality vehicle repairs and bus/coach bodies. By 1937 he was renowned for the Luxury Coach Bodies they produce. The attached photo was in my Fathers collection of photographs and one assumes it was the vehicle he worked soon after joining the company from another Wigan bus body company Massey Bros. In 1939 Thomas died and his 3 sons took over the business. By 1953 with business declining the sons decided to close down and sold up on 12th September 1953. The details came from the report in the local paper Wigan Observer September 1953. The works was situated in Powell Street Wigan and the Army acquired the building for their training recruits. Santus’s tools and equipment was sold off to various people. I trust this throws more light on your history. The attached photograph also displayed on The Wigan World (Album) web site.

Barrie Old

08/09/17 – 06:30

Thx, Barrie, for that useful fill-in information. I’m very impressed by the stylish body on the Leyland TS coach, with its slightly staggered rear waistline. I’d say it dates from around 1937. I like the selling point, "Super Luxury Radio Coach" No sign of a wireless aerial, which would have been quite large at that time.

Chris Hebbron

09/09/17 – 06:36

Chris, further info came to light recently- from my father’s diaries this vehicle was completed, inspected passed and delivered to Fairclough Bros. (BeeHive) Lostock Lancashire on 26th July 1938.
Incidentally, the 3 sons of Thomas Santus were William,Norman & Alan.
According to the information held in the Wigan Museum on Santus, there was a small number of Luxury Coaches of this style built for independent coach firms in the North West of England around the period 1935-38.
1 photograph in the files show ED 8919 with Ashtons Coach Luxury adorned on the side.
Have tried to find details on Fairclough Bros. without success but I believe BeeHive was part of the Co-Op travel group.

Barrie Old

29/10/17 – 06:17

Fairclough Bros. was initially J. & J.W. Fairclough (t/a Fairclough Bros.) later becoming Fairclough Bros. Ltd. The address which I have is 993 Chorley New Road, Lostock, Bolton. The Passenger Transport Little Red Book, 1965 edition, records them as Fairclough Bros. Ltd., Beehive Garage, Chorley New Road, Lostock, Bolton – possibly the same premises.
The first known coach was a Leyland Tiger, JP 681, with an unrecorded C32F body reported as new in March 1935. The registration in your photograph looks as if it could be JP 681 so it may have been rebodied for some reason.
A total of seven Santus bodied coaches are recorded with Fairclough from ANM 24 (a rebodied A.E.C. Regal) in June 1946 to MTJ 774 and NTD 447 in June and August 1951 – Both Leyland Royal Tigers. A link to a photograph of the latter one is www.sct61.org.uk/zzntd447 Fairclough Bros. sold it in November 1959.

John Kaye