Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1947
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
ECW C31R

HCD 449 is a Leyland Tiger PS1/1 with an ECW C31R bodywork (with door!) and dates from 1947, when it joined Southdown. We see it at an open day at the Brijan Tours depot in Curdridge – just outside Botley – on 22 April 2012. These open days were always well-attended, collecting money for local charities, normally the Hampshire & Isle Of Wight Air Ambulance. Sadly, Brijan closed down in 2015.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 06:15

Superb in every way.

Ian Thompson

29/04/16 – 07:56

Is this another post which will spark off the old debate about DP v Coach specification? Southdown classed them as coaches but the body shell is unmistakeably bus with just a little additional brightwork embellishment. That apart it is a superb looking vehicle especially with the chromed radiator surround nicely polished.

Philip Halstead

29/04/16 – 14:29

Thanks for your comment, Ian!

Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 14:29

This particular combination of already handsome ECW body with Leyland PS1 chassis has always been particularly pleasing to me as an ardent admirer of both components.
If ever there was a vehicle where everything looks "just right" this is one. Many operators had examples of these but as far as I know only the Southdown ones had half drop windows (and very tidy louvres??)

Chris Youhill

30/04/16 – 06:28

A very interesting thought, Chris Y. I’ve just had a trawl through the contributions in respect of ECW bodies. Among them, there are plenty of single deckers, but none have the half-drop windows. Is one of the Southdown aficionados able to tell us if that operator was indeed the only one to have this combination?

Pete Davies

30/04/16 – 12:16

I am sure that I have travelled on an ECW-bodied Hants & Dorset Bristol LS B35R with half-drops in the late 1950s.

David Wragg

01/05/16 – 05:55

My favourite Southdown vehicles. As a small child in the late 50’s, I used to travel into Storrington on the service 71 which was usually operated by the 15xx East Lancs bodied Royal Tigers. Occasionally, one of these magnificent machines would turn up much to my delight. (They were downgraded from express duties to bus work after 1955).
Some were fitted with bus seats and full size destination boxes front and rear. Others remained as built. Regarding the half drop windows, there is a story that they were delivered with sliders, but altered at Portslade works before entering service. Not sure if this is truth or folklore, but Southdown had a thing about half drop windows, and all pre 1956 vehicles had them.

Roy Nicholson

01/05/16 – 17:20

Roy, according to MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s lovely book ‘ECW 1946-1965’, it would appear that Southdown had accepted most features of ECW’s ‘express’ design on its batch of Tigers, including the trim along the waistline. Interestingly though the authors go on to state: "However, there seems to have been some unease about the opening windows from early on. Some, at least, entered service with the then new ECW standard sliding vents (there being photographic evidence of body 1644 at Victoria thus), but body 1638 had much deeper sliding vents while 1640 (Southdown 1246) had full-depth sliding windows as built". An accompanying three-quarter rear view of 1246(GUF746) clearly shows the full-depth sliders, which gave the vehicle something of an ‘export model’ look. The text continues: "All of these options were considered unsatisfactory, and special half-drop windows conforming to ECW outline were fitted within a few months". The view of 1246 with full-depth sliders shows it without the louvres above the windows, so were these fitted as vehicles received their half-drop windows? Whatever the case, there is no doubt that they were handsome machines, enhanced by the application of Southdown’s distinctive livery. Beautiful.

Brendan Smith

02/05/16 – 06:44

Brendan, thanks for the information confirming the story about the half drop windows. I will keep my eyes open for a copy of said book.

Roy Nicholson

02/05/16 – 06:44

Many thanks for your further comments, folks.

Pete Davies

03/05/16 – 07:09

A real favourite of mine, especially since I once travelled on one, with my mum, back from Southsea to Kingston, in 1953. I never thought of it other than a coach, especially so as it bore the ‘coach’ script on the side. The odd ones were always the utility open-topped Guy Arab II’s who also bore ‘coach’ script, not really deserving it, although I was fond of them!

Chris Hebbron

04/05/16 – 06:21

Chris, your comment confirms my recollection that these ECW bodied PS1s were the ones used on the London – Gosport coach service that I travelled on several times as a kid between 1949 and 1952. I recall the first time I saw one before getting on it in Gosport, and marvelling at its smart appearance. Having been a great fan of the Maidstone and District pre-war Tigers when previously living in Kent, I looked forward to being treated to the glorious musical sounds that the word ‘Leyland’ had come to mean to me. Oh, how the PS1 disappointed – like hearing Stockhausen after Sibelius. The E181 engine had a very harsh rattle, even if it propelled the coach along adequately. Back in the early days of Buses Illustrated, there used to be a regular column called ‘From The Driver’s Seat’ by a certain T.A. Dalton, who, I think, worked for United Automobile. He was consistently disparaging about the E181 engine, but our own OBP expert, Chris Youhill, takes a completely opposite view, and none of us, I’m sure, would challenge Chris’s unparalleled practical knowledge on the subject. Like the Crossley and Daimler engines of the early post war period, the E181 was probably best suited to single deck applications, and the PS1 continued to be the standard Leyland saloon bus offering after the PS2 had appeared.

Roger Cox

05/05/16 – 06:53

Many thanks Roger, and I must say though that my impression of the E181 engines was as unfavourable as anyone else’s when they first appeared in 1945/6. I think initially the stark contrast with the lusty but silky smooth prewar 8.6 litre unit hit us all very forcibly, and secondly, although I have no technical knowledge on the matter, I do think that fitter unfamiliarity and poor quality fuel contributed to that harsh "knock" which they displayed. In my experience they became much more mellow and delightful in later years for whatever reason and had remarkable power when properly "tuned and fed" and driven for their 7.4 litres. No use expecting them to pull with trolleybus like power at ridiculously low road speeds in the higher ratios – that’s where proper use of the very precise gearboxes was essential – oh there now, I’m drooling again. I often think of the occasion when I was just at the start of a very busy late Saturday duty when the AEC Regent V suffered a flat rear tyre and was changed over with JUM 376, one of the original half dozen bought new in 1946. The apologetic but understanding fitter promised to return the Regent within the hour with a new tyre – I said that I’d rather keep 376 for the rest of the duty and he agreed – I had a lovely evening but we were both lucky to get away with it as, if the eagle eyed manager had spotted on Monday morning that we’d un-necessarily sacrificed 65 seats for 58 we’d have been for the high jump. In the event of course we never left anybody all evening – did somebody mutter something about "eight standing" ?? – never heard them !!

Chris Youhill

Lancaster City Transport
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
East Lancs B53F

LTC 109F fleet number 109 is a Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R with East Lancs B53F body, new to Lancaster in 1968. The batch was in maroon and cream livery then, but we see it in ‘post merger’ livery of blue and white, on the sunny evening of 20 May 1975. The scene is Lancaster’s Damside Street Bus Station. 389 JTD a 1959 Tiger Cub is behind, still in the old livery but with the Tilling style of fleetname adopted as an interim measure for Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham vehicles, together with what looks like another Panther on the extreme left of the view.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 09:09

In late 1979 LTC 109F came to Derbyshire when, in company with Morecambe and Heysham AEC Swift UTJ 908H, it joined Woolliscroft Silver Service fleet at Darley Dale. Initially they were on loan from Lancaster City but were purchased outright soon after arrival. The Panther bore a strong family resemblance to a batch of Neepsend bodied Panthers at nearby Chesterfield, these Neepsend bodies being built under license from East Lancs. LTC 109F lasted a couple of years but was eventually stripped for spares and the remains had been scrapped by 1982. The Swift lasted a little longer going to North at Sherburn in 1983.

David Hargraves

24/04/16 – 10:43

My original slide includes the Ribble PD3 with Metropolitan Cammell body which some members may have spotted on the extreme right It is from the PCK series. Lancaster had six of these Panthers, in two trios: GTC 104-106F from 1967 and 107-109F from 1968.
David comments on a number of supposed ‘East Lancs’ products being bodied by Neepsend. Some of Southampton’s later Regent V fleet were products of this arrangement and I think I’ve read somewhere that many think Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs, but they were in fact part of the same group. Wrong again, Davies?

Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 12:42

Just a clarification re. Pete’s comment, the registrations of the second batch of three Panthers were LTC-F.
Lancaster reverted to Leopards for its next deliveries.

Dave Towers

24/04/16 – 18:33

Thanks, Dave. I must fire my proof reader!

Pete Davies

26/04/16 – 14:57

East Lancs were owned at the time by John Brown engineering who were based originally in Sheffield They re activated bus building in Sheffield at a factory on Neepsend Lane using East Lancs designs.
So really Neepsend were never an East Lancs subsidiary but both were part of the John Brown empire.
Sheffield took some rear engine chassis from them in 1964/65 The firm (I think) built one more body on a Bedford VAS chassis for Sheffield but by this time it was called Cravens Homalloy.

Chris Hough

27/04/16 – 05:54

Thanks, Chris. I’m glad that the old grey cells have not failed me this time.

Pete Davies

Western Welsh
1969
Leyland Leopard PSU3A/4RT
Plaxton C49F

Western Welsh buses ran in a maroon livery however this smart blue and ivory was applied to coaches for a period. OUH 177G is a preserved example of the Leyland PSU3A/4RT (900597) with Plaxton Panorama Elite C49F coachwork (693263). The batch of six delivered in April 1969 were fitted with a five-speed semi-automatic gearbox and two-speed rear axle. This one is seen at the 2016 Swansea Bus Museum Running Day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

25/04/16 – 18:05

I’m surprised nobody else has commented, Les. Very nice view, and thanks for posting. I’ve been doing battle with my computer system [going back to a Windows machine from an Apple] otherwise I would have commented before.
I’m still not finished and am currently trying to get some backup copies restored by my local photographic dealer. (Most have copied happily, some have been reluctant to do all their contents and a few won’t do anything!)
It’s very pleasant to see a Western Welsh coach in "proper" colours rather than the white paint carried by her sister 176G, which I had published one these pages some while ago.

Pete Davies

28/04/16 – 07:10

I have attached a photo of Western Welsh WKG 138, an AEC Reliance 470 with a Weymann C39F body new in May 1961. It was on hire to PMT in May 1970 along with several others of the batch and is pictured outside Stoke No 1 Garage. I think this body style was unique to Western Welsh and (to my mind) could hardly be described as attractive. Hope this is of interest.

(A rather younger version of IW is in the driving seat!!!)

Ian Wild

29/04/16 – 06:13

Ian, you described the looks of WKG 138 very tactfully, although it does have its charms despite (to my eyes) looking somewhat like a frog wearing safety goggles. It must be admitted that 177 certainly leaves it standing in the beauty stakes though. The Plaxton coachwork looks simply stunning in Western Welsh’s cream and blue livery. Interesting that the Company chose blue rather than red or maroon for the coach livery. I wonder what the reasoning behind it was.

Brendan Smith

29/04/16 – 07:55

Its a shame that they had to bend the windscreen panels to fit them in.

Joe

02/05/16 – 06:43

Brendan, I believe that "powder blue" was the livery of WWOC’s predecessor South Wales Commercial Motors – although why WWOC decided to adopt it as their coach livery . . .

Philip Rushworth

02/05/16 – 14:03

Brendan’s description "a frog wearing safety goggles" is brilliant ! I can see exactly what he means.

John Stringer

02/05/16 – 14:04

Thanks for the information Philip. It’s certainly an attractive shade, especially when matched with cream/ivory.

Brendan Smith

07/05/16 – 17:31

I was never lucky enough to drive an Elite like this – when I started PSV driving in 1979 it was Supremes that we had at Salopia and then Shearings.
But when I did my HGV training at Bassetts at Stone in the 1990s they still had a few Elites older than this one (ISTR a "D" registered one at least) running around on schools contracts. I asked if they would sell me one but they said "no" on the grounds that with them being 45 instead of 53 seats, they were easier to turn into school driveways.
But out of interest, where would anyone go (apart from eBay) to find something like this for sale these days. I’d love to have my own old "Plackie" to go on day trips out.

Eric Hall

08/05/16 – 05:58

Eric – your best option is probably to buy a copy of "Bus & Coach Preservation" and keep an eye on the adverts section. It is published monthly, and I think that Plaxton Elites come up occasionally (I cannot see any in the current issue). To the best of my knowledge, the earliest Elites were G-suffix registrations. I’m not an expert, but my understanding is that the structure is not always as good as the vehicle might look – and certainly not as solid as an ECW body!
The Western Welsh blue and royal ivory coach and DP livery was actually quite short lived. It first appeared in 1965, and all new coaches and DPs delivered from 1965 to 1971 were delivered in it, as well as the 1972 coaches. Older vehicles were repainted in the blue/ivory during that period, but by 1972, the company had reverted to dark red and cream for DPs. Towards the end of the period, the fleetname was replaced with a large block lettered variety. I seem to recall reading that the shade of blue was known as "peacock".

Nigel Frampton

09/05/16 – 16:49

I have just bought a J reg Elite. Certainly they were renowned for drooping behind the rear axle and mine was no different. 60 man hours and some steel later all sorted and MoT obtained.

Roger Burdett

10/05/16 – 06:47

When you refer to the solidity of ECW body designs, Nigel, I assume that you do not include the B51 in that description, though much of the blame lay with Leyland. The B51 was designed for the RE, but Leyland decided to fit it to underfloor engined chassis with no proper rear chassis support for the boot area.

Roger Cox

11/05/16 – 06:27

Well, Roger, I was thinking more of contemporaries to this Western Welsh vehicle, for example the first style of coach body on a Bristol RELH chassis. Those were definitely solid!
Unfortunately, under Leyland’s influence, and possibly a more general pressure to cut costs, the quality deteriorated in later years, and I have read somewhere that, for example, the second type of RELH coach body was also not as solid as its predecessor. But I agree, the B51 was poor – perhaps, the exception that proves the rule!

Nigel Frampton

11/05/16 – 06:28

The Elite is most correctly described as the ‘Panorama Elite’ although as time went by the ‘Panorama’ was dropped in everyday speak. The earliest examples were G-reg, restyling seeing the introduction of the Panorama Elite II and Panorama Elite III, the final examples being P-registered. When grant doors etc were specified, the word ‘Express’ was added to the body designation eg: Plaxton Panorama Elite II Express, which probably accounts for the general term ‘Elite’!

Philip Lamb