Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Copyright CPPTD

Portsmouth Corporation
1927
Karrier WL6/2
Brush H32/28R

Portsmouth Corporation, primarily a tram operator at this time, having dabbled with some Thornycroft J’s, Guy J’s, Dennis 50 cwt’s, an LGOC B Class, Dennis E’s and a Karrier CL, then decided to go for some big boys, buying eight Karrier WL6/2’s registered in two batches, in 1927. Here is a photo of No. 46 (TP4835) with Brush H32/28R bodies. This was during a brief era when 6-wheel buses were ‘de rigeur’, with higher seating levels and, when front-wheel braking was uncommon, four wheels with brakes at the rear were better than two. However, Karrier was not the company to buy them from! Geoffrey Hilditch in his excellent book ‘A Look at Buses’ recalls that Karrier had not realised that it was necessary to have a crown wheel and pinion BETWEEN the two axles, which set up mechanical stress and continual breakdowns. On one occasion a lady with two children was walking along the downstairs bus aisle when a flailing drive shaft came through the floor, narrowly missing them. Karrier’s policy was not to bother to keep spares for its products for much longer than production ceased, adding to the users’ problems and, no doubt, prejudicing repeat orders for the company’s products, when Leyland/AEC were becoming the leading lights. Suffice to say, that when the Huddersfield company finally started to produce some quite capable models, such as the Chaser and Consort around 1930, sales had dropped right off and, with the Wall Street Crash causing a slump, never really recovered, leading to Rootes taking over the firm in 1934. As for those in Pompey, they were persevered with for one year longer, until 1935. The lining-out of the bus is extensive, yet surprisingly simple for the period, with no fiddly work at the corners which was often prevalent at that time, Portsmouth being no exception. In latter years, simple lining out became the order of the day again, as you can see from the Crossley DD42/7 I posted recently. I assume the colours were maroon/white, as the tram and later bus livery.

And the Knight & Lee store (“Still a Foremost for FASHION – Second to None for VALUE”), advertised on the side poster? Not exactly in the category as Binns of Newcastle, either in store size or bus advertising presence, it nevertheless still exists under the more famous ‘John Lewis’ name! More staying power than the bus!

And a question – something is sticking out in front of the radiator. Is it a headlamp? At, say, 9” diameter and therefore the same depth, plus a bit more space, it would seem to be sticking out about 15” beyond the radiator front and, if not actually fouling the starting handle, making the use of the handle more difficult than otherwise would be the case. Blowing that part of the photo up to 400% does not, sadly, help provide an answer.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

Headlamp is clearly visible on the offside mudguard. As a suggestion, might it have been an audible warning device? After moving on from rubber bulb horns, it could have been some sort of patent mechanical klaxon. Or a fog light maybe?

Stephen Ford

It’s a headlamp!

The lamp on the offside wing is a sidelight, despite it size.

Buses as late as (if I remember correctly) 1967 didn’t have to have two headlamps, and if they did, they were not required to be of the same size or height from the ground. That’s why early pictures of Routemasters often show them with only one headlamp lit: they were on separate switches! Also, in the early post-war period you often saw buses (notably Manchester Corporation ones) with one original full-sized lamp and one tiny, former blackout lamp.

David Jones

13/02/11 – 06:38

I enlarged the picture & brightened it which then seemed to show that the headlamp was not in front of the radiator but mounted on the offside chassis dumb iron by a clumsy looking bracket.

Brian

13/02/11 – 18:34

Well done, Brian, that settles it. The headlamp is certainly formidable-looking!

Chris Hebbron

14/02/11 – 09:46

What a wonderful old vehicle this is!.
Did PCT have some with EE bodies as well?
The Brush version seen here is a FC version of the CX Guys supplied to Leicester. Forward control 6 wheel double deckers!
The fascination of buses from this era is their close tramcar ancestry, and the swift development in design between 1928/9, and 1932 is dramatic!

John Whitaker

Leicester`s CXs were, of course Normal control. My enthusiasm went ahead of my typing fingers!

15/02/11 – 06:24

Yes John, CPPTD took delivery of another six, 48-53. in 1928, with English Electric bodies, these lasting until 1934, with 52 being the very last of them all to be withdrawn, in 1936. You are so right in your mention of the huge leap in body design in that five years or so.
BTW – If anyone wonders about Portsmouth Corporation’s coat of arms, it is a star with a moon underneath, cupped upwards. The motto is: ‘Heavens Light – Our Guide’. And in English, too – no fancy Latin for Pompey!!

Chris Hebbron

18/06/12 – 11:57

Chris, you are obviously as fascinated as I am by this bus generation! I think it is because it is just past my recollection, as my earliest bus memories were during WW2, and anything of an earlier generation was just "out of reach" if you follow me!
This rear view is particularly valuable, as such views were quite rare, and it gives me some indication as to what the rear end of a Leicester Guy CX would have looked like. A similar body although modified for fitment to a normal control 6 wheel chassis.
The English Electric version was quite similar, but I do have recollections of that family of buses, as I can (just) remember the Bradford English Electric "Paddlers" of 1929. See David Beilby`s galleries, where other, similar delights are to be found!  Wonderful stuff!

John Whitaker

19/06/12 – 11:38

You’re right, John W, it was a period of fast change, which soon saw some early competitors off, especially with the Wall Street Crash of 1929. And with six-wheelers, Guy/Karrier got it wrong and AEC/Leyland got it right when it came to needing a diff between the twin axles. With the rear view of the bus, it clearly shows the tram influence, with the two side bulkheads aft of the saloon and the round-shaped winding staircase.
A rounded back, door between bulkheads, a controller and brake handle and it could pass for a tram end! And the internal view of the EE bodies for similar vehicles on David B’s excellent website, shows two enormous floor traps to gain access to those troublesome rear axles! Glad the photo was useful to you: it was to me, too.
I’d love to have ridden on them!

Chris Hebbron

03/11/12 – 17:15

Here’s a rare and lovely photo of four Karrier WL6/2’s parked around the side of Portsmouth’s Guildhall, possible awaiting a concert crowd to take home.
If any Northerners think the building looks familiar, it’s an exact copy of Bolton Town Hall. However, it was gutted in the war and rebuilt many years after in a much more simplified style, losing much of its original glory.

Chris Hebbron

04/11/12 – 15:43

Chris, it was a delight to see your latest WL6 photo in Pompey, and it has served to re-ignite my fascination for this era. There seemed to be a "punctuation mark" in development stages, between this era, and the more rounded style post 1930/2. This "mark" was probably the TD1 Titan, and both sides of it are fascinating in a different way.
My nearest actual memory glimpses are the Bradford "Paddler" trolleybuses, which were direct relations of the English Electric bodied variant of the WL6 at Portsmouth. Similar bodies were built for Oldham on Guy FCX chassis, and, of course, good old Dodson reigned supreme in producing bodies to this classic style. A photo of the Portsmouth and Southampton (Thornycroft) 6 wheeler EE bodies would be of great interest, and, I am always amazed that the wonderful Wolverhampton fleet of the 1920s, in both petrol and electric format, does not generate more historical enthusiast interest. How fascinatingly different was a normal control 6 wheel motorbus!
The whole 1920s 6 wheel idea was a step too far, too quickly, in the drive for seats in the tram replacement climate, but when it comes to enthusiast content and memory, then unsuccessful they were NOT!!
Come on you OBP followers. Lets have more of the really old stuff! Or is it me getting longer in the tooth than anyone else? !!

John Whitaker

05/11/12 – 17:19

It really was a time of great change then, John, with petrol to diesel and open staircases giving way to enclosed platforms and open cabs to enclosed ones, especially in London. Boxy bodies giving way to more rounded, streamlined ones (now they’re boxy again). The second photo (rear of bus) has a bulge for the lower deck, which I’ve seen called ‘tumbledown’ in the past. Anyone know why – was it the type of staircase that necessitated the bulge or passenger risk, or what?
I really must try to trace a photo of the 1928 batch of Karriers, with EE bodies. they seem more elusive although there were 6 against 8 of the others, almost even.

Chris Hebbron

06/11/12 – 06:37

Hi Chris. These Brush bodies are very similar to the Leicester Guy CXs, which had a similar rear tumbleholme/tumbledown, but which does not commence its inward bend until first stair riser level, so I think it was purely a "fashion", and very common. The staircase was a half landing type, but Dodson bodies of this era had tramway style "half turn" or direct stairs to the tramway spiral style, and consequently , in plan view, the enclosed bodies had a much larger off side radius at the rear, compared with the near side. EEC bodies were very similar to the Brush design. I will try to gain access to the Brush Archive at Leicester Museums, to see if I can get access to photos of these Karriers, and others built by Brush. There were also batches of six wheel Maudslay Magnas for Coventry which were superb, magnificent machines!
Hall Lewis also built bodies for Karrier WL6, as did Roe, on Karrier and Guy, and also Short Bros.
Northampton had some Guy FCX with locally built Grose bodies too, but all in good time John…slow down a bit!

As an afterthought on the Karrier 6 wheel double deck motorbus theme, does anyone know the correct designation, as most photo captions refer to the double decker as "DD6", and the single decker as WL6/1 or 2. Also, was the maximum length for these buses, prior to 1931/2, 28ft, corresponding with the 25 ft for 4 wheelers? I never did know, but think the single deck could be built to 30ft,and the decker 28ft, this rising to 26ft and 30ft. in 1932 (viz ST to STL). Many trolleybuses were built to 30ft. length, as represented by AEC type 664T (663T for the shorter option), but were there any post 1932 30ft. 6 wheel motorbuses? I cannot think of any, but that means nothing!
It would seem that a resurgence of interest in "full size" motorbuses was about to materialise c.1939, with Leicester purchasing batches of "Renowns", and there was a Daimler COG6/60 chassis, due to be demonstrated to Leicester, destroyed at Daimlers works in the blitz. Please correct me if I say these were not 3o footers.
Also interesting is the fact that both EE and Brush, the first and second main supplier of tramcar bodies in the UK since 1900, were so prominent in the concept of "large capacity" motorbuses in the 1920s, and that both voluntarily abandoned this business during, or soon after WW2. The third supplier of tramcar bodies, Hurst Nelson of Motherwell, never really got into bus building at all.
I wonder if we could get together to make a list of all known pre-1932 6 wheel dd. motorbuses. An interesting read?

John Whitaker

26/07/13 – 17:42

I mentioned above a near-miss accident with one of these buses, but have found a news clipping about an horrific fatal accident with Wallasey Corporation Karrier DD6, a variant of the WL 6/1 & 6/2. Sadly, both Karrier and Wallasey Corp’n got away without being blamed. You’ve got to feel greatly for the husband. SEE: www.historyofwallasey.co.uk/wallasey/

Chris Hebbron

27/07/13 – 07:41

This horrific accident was mentioned in a history of Wallasey Corporation published c.1958 in Buses Illustrated. The author stated that as a result, all the Wallasey Karrier six-wheelers were withdrawn from service immediately. As I remember it, there was a hint that the cause was prop shaft failure, due to the stresses of the inadequate design of the twin rear axle, and that this accident also caused some other operators to get rid of this make of six-wheelers sooner rather than later.

Michael Hampton

27/07/13 – 09:08

Portsmouth, in its usual way, kept them going until 1935, probably the full span of their lives, for the time!

Chris Hebbron

28/07/13 – 07:34

I remember that article, Michael, and I also attended an illustrated talk in the mid 1960s given by my then boss, Geoff Hilditch at Halifax. He mentioned this tragic event, and later, writing as ‘Gortonian’, covered it in one of his Buses Illustrated articles. It was reprinted in his book ‘Looking at Buses’. These Karriers did not have a safety bridle on the shaft linking the engine to the gearbox, and when two of the three connecting bolts sheared off suddenly, the third held, causing the shaft to flail around and up through the floor with devastating results. Karriers never fully recovered their reputation after that accident.

Roger Cox

29/07/13 – 07:45

Doncaster received four AEC Renowns in 1935 and three Leyland Titanics in 1936 all with Roe H60R bodies.

Malcolm J Wells

29/07/13 – 14:46

To show both body types on the same chassis, here is a rare photo of CPPTD’s Karrier WL6/2 No.50 (TP 6874), delivered 1928. These sported EE bodies very similar to the Brush ones, with the same seating capacity. The most obvious difference was the top deck’s far less neat side-sliding windows on this body. In this photo, the bus clearly has two headlamps Of the batch, 52 lasted the longest, until 1936. (Copyright: English Electric)

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

16/11/13 – 10:50

I’ve come across a 1928 advert, making great claims about their WL62 chassis.
I’ve no idea in whose livery the bus in the photo is (someone may know), but I am intrigued about the unusual non-cutaway section of platform on the rear of bus. I’ve never seen such an example before and it might be an added clue.

Chris Hebbron

07/08/16 – 06:55

Re: 1928 advert.
the livety is for Liverpool. they bought 6 two wheel chassis, and had the bodies built in the tram works.

Art

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

11/07/17 – 06:53

This is in response to Chris Hebron’s message of 26/7/13 (!) with its link to an article about a passenger disappearing through the floor of a Karrier six wheeler and being killed by the machinery underneath. Over the weekend I was looking at the floor of the Bournemouth 6-wheel Karrier single decker LJ500. My usual experience of bus floors is ECW and Beadle products where the floors are 1" or 7/8" T&G boards. The lightweight Bristol SC, where everything was skinned down as much as possible to save weight has floorboards 5/8" thick. The Hall Lewis body on LJ500 has boards a smigen over 1/2" thick. The saving grace for the SC is that the distance between supports is a lot less than those on the Karrier – 18" or so compared with 3′ or more. I have to say that standing on the floor in LJ500 it didn’t feel all that safe and having now read Chris Hebron’s comments and the Wallasey article I understand why.

Peter Cook

12/07/17 – 07:24

On 6/11/12 (was it that long ago!), John Whitaker was interested in compiling a list of pre-1932 double deck buses manufactured. I’ve had a quick go and come up with the following, a couple of them are single deck ones.
AEC Renown (single and double), Bristol C (two chassis, only one of which bodied), Crossley Condor (one only), Guy CX & DD, Karrier DD, WL6 (both), Clipper (single) & Consort, Leyland Titanic (TS6T/TS7T single), Northern General SE6 (single), Sunbeam Sikh.

Chris Hebbron

Photograph G. Brooke

Yorkshire Woollen District
1948
Leyland Tiger PS1
Brush B34F

This great shot of a superb bus arrived above due to a comment made on another YWD vehicle on this site. The person who made the comment said he owned the only survivor of a batch of 75 Brush bodied Leyland Tiger PS1s. This I had to pursue, the bus is owned by Dr Gordon Brooke who as a schoolboy went to school on these Tigers when they were new and then in his student days he was a conductor on the actual bus above.
Many of the Tigers from the original batch of 75 were re-bodied as double deckers in 1954/5 but 622 carried on until 1960 when she was withdrawn from regular service. Instead of being sold on to a dealer which was normal, 622 was used for other things. First she was used as a driver trainer by Yorkshire Woollen District and secondly as a tow-wagon/gritter by the engineering dept with the rear end cut away and most of the seats removed. In 1969 622 was sold to W. Norths (PV) Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet (dealer).
Gordon acquired 622 in 1988 but did not start restoration until 1990, he then spent the next 12 years restoring her to an immaculate original condition as can be seen from the photograph above. To maintain originality 622 has been painted in the dark maroon livery of Yorkshire Woollen District instead of the later Post Office red, this would have been the livery when she was delivered new.
The above photograph was taken early 2006 and 622 is seen outside the shed where she was originally built in 1948 at the Brush bodyworks Loughborough, Leicestershire.

From a photograph and information contributed by Dr G. Brooke

For much more detailed information regarding YWD Tigers click here.

“Looks like a beautiful restoration.”

Many people are aware of the 1960’s standard BET body with curved screens at either end and some are aware of the earlier version on underfloor chassis. This is the earliest version on half-cabs.
Various contractors would build to BET’s standard design – the final type mainly by Marshall, Weymann and Willowbrook. In addition to Brush, Roe and Weymann built to this design but Yorkshire Traction also had examples built by Roberts and Northern Coachbuilders.
Brush sold out their coach building side to Willowbrook in the early ’50s and shortly afterwards Willowbrook sold out to Duple. The bulk of the Brush empire remained to do much railway work – especially building locomotives.

David Oldfield

I just had to make comment on the above vehicle. Could it be the vehicle in which I passed my PSV test? It was May 1966, the driving instructor was Clifford Allott.

Colin Wilson

This looks a superb restoration.
How lovely it would be to hear this vehicle running. These Leyland PS1 and PD1 buses were blessed with a fascinatingly musical sound, especially in intermediate gears. How I remember Southdown’s examples crooning and murmuring, with gulps and sobs when going on to the over-run! Vehicles of this era were far more characterful than in the last 30 years.

Tony Evans

What a wonderful surprise it was to see that someone had restored an “Old Friend” I served my apprenticeship in the Savile Town Central works and passed my PSV on this vehicle. I also drove its converted (to double deck) sisters on the Birstall to Thornhill route on many busy Saturday duties. Where is it kept? as I would love to see it!!!!

Chris Bligh

I agree completely with Tony Evans about the fabulous music emanating from the PS1s and PD1s. I passed my PSV test on Samuel Ledgard’s PD1 JUM 378 – it had just arrived, warm, from a peak hour duplicate and was tuned to perfection for the difficult course around West Leeds – I sailed around fervently hoping to pass with the toughest Ministry examiner whose fearsome reputation put terror into the hearts of even experienced lorry drivers, many of whom failed for the slightest tinkle of even one gear. As we descended a steep hill in third gear an exasperated voice wailed through the rear cab window "There are four gears on this vehicle" – Fortunately I didn’t fall for that one as I would have failed on the spot. We returned to Armley Headquarters, still showing "Kingsley Drive" on the destination blind, and I was handed the famous pink slip and there began some of the happiest times of my long career. I was allocated a late duty the following day on the Leeds – Guiseley -Ilkley service, and another fine vehicle rolled up – LAE 12, a PD1 ex Bristol with the fascinating combination of an ECW body. Quality design and construction to the last nut and bolt, and every bit as well behaved and delightful as her all Leyland "half sister" who had done so well for me the previous day on the PSV test.

Chris Youhill

Those ECW-bodied "Bristol Omnibus" Leylands were rather smart hybrids. Do you have a photo of them in Samuel Ledgard service, Chris?

Chris Hebbron

Plenty of such photographs Chris H, which I’ll send to Peter by E mail and perhaps some may appear on here. We had three ex Bristol PD1s with ECW bodies, KHW 631, KHY 395 and LAE 12. We also had a further three with BBW bodies, not handsome but full of character and soundly constructed, KHW 243, KHW 622 and LAE 2.

Chris Youhill

The preserved YWD Tiger is resident at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum in Rotherham.

Chris Hough

My father was employed as a coach painter/signwriter by Yorkshire Woollen during the 1950s. He painted these Brush bodied PS1s among others. 586/91 608/12/22 were painted in reverse livery and went on loan to Hebble at Halifax. Dad said these were painted in overtime.

Philip Carlton

Super picture of the YWD PS1 which stirs memories in Bradford`s Chester Street Bus Station. Trouble is, most were rebodied as double deckers in an all over drab red livery, with what I think were the first examples (or very early) of MCW Orion lightweight bodies.
The Federation design of single deck body dates well before WW2, going back to c. 1932, being built by Brush, ECW, Weymann, Roe et al. There was even a double deck version with front upper deck window in 3 divisions, but seen in much smaller numbers. YWD had some with centre entrance, and Thames Valley seems to be in my memory, but EYMS were the principle users.
Chris Ys remarks about ECW bodied Leylands (and BBW!!) also reminded me that the Tilling Group purchased these in the early post war years as they could not get the required number of Bristols. Pity West Yorkshire didn’t`t get any, but this always seemed to be a "flagship" fleet.

John Whitaker

Many thank for your reply Regarding the PS1 622 I wonder if any of your members know what happened to 773 (UTF 930) a Leyland Demo that ended up at Y W D T. As I said in my previous email I worked at YWDT as an Auto Electrical Engineer in the 50/60s and recall with very fond memories 773 this must have been the best of 56 seater conductor operated buses. It was a extremely reliable vehicle you sent it out on Monday morning and forgot about it until someone remembered it may need cleaning or the oil changing it just kept running. The drivers would fight to get it on there duty as it was a pleasure to drive and had vacuum brakes which where very progressive, so the Conductors loved it as well!! The brakes had the Leyland R P adjuster mechanism which worked extremely well and the only attention it required between relines was a liner check every 2 weeks (the other thing that sticks in my mind was the very unusual “Exhaust Note” which sounded like a Ferrari!!!) If this Super bus still exists I would very much like to see it (Distance NO object)
Also I would like to hear from any one who worked for Y W D T around the 50/60s as this was one of the best times of my life!!!

Chris Bligh

Chris, 773 was renumbered 54 in 1967 and withdrawn in 1970 going to Norths of Sherburn in Elmet in 1971 and then sold for scrap February 1971. I remember the bus well as I started work at Saville Town in 1969 and I am still employed by YWDs successors Arriva although at Belle Isle. The bus was frequently on Chickenley area services and would romp up Wakefield Cutting in third and as you say a very popular bus with drivers. Another thing I remember that was unique with 773 was the continuous push bell strip the only one of its kind in the YWD Double decker fleet until the arrival of the 1965 Fleetlines.
As regards people in the Engineering department when I started.
Depot Engineer at Saville Town was Eddie Beaumont.
A charge hand called Eric Daniels.
Central works foreman was Bennett (Jack I think)

John Blackburn

I have had a great shot of the YWD Titan 773 (UTF 930) sent to me by Bob Gell so it will be posted in its own right mid February.

Peter

With regard to YWDT staff I was apprenticed to Jack Bennett (mid 50s) who became charge hand at Dewsbury Central works (Repair Shop). Eddie Beaumont was Charge hand on the “Daily Dock” section. Eric Daniels was a Ganger on the Daily Dock, I believe he had returned to “The Works” after National Service.
I also believe Jack Bennett went on the be a Fleet Engineer or T A at West Riding at Belle Isle. His farther was a driver at Dewsbury and also played the drums in the YWDT Band, he was always known as “Drummer Bennett”. Also thanks Peter I will look forward to seeing the Photo in Feb!!

Chris Bligh

22/02/11 – 06:30

In response to looking for old YWD employees. May dad (Fred Sharpe) was with the company for many years. Started at Saville Town, went to Bradford (Hebble depot), back to Heckmodwike (Beck Lane) before being retired.
Fond memories of the kids bus trip to the seaside on a convoy of single deckers from Long Causeway each year, with our little ‘Paddington Bear’ type tags dangling from duffle coats (always seems to rain on those days!)
Dad used to take ‘specials’ at weekends in Bradford, often fishing trips, where the ladies would go on to the coast while the blokes did the angling. Sometimes we would get to go with them for the ride.
Used to live in Chickenley, cost us three-ha’pence to town on the L/M bus when I was first allowed to travel alone, to Sunday School. Pretty sure my dad passed his PSV on the Tiger as well. He’s still around (Feb 2011), in Mirfield. I live in Doncaster now.

Gordon Sharpe

Rather curious what L/M stands for when you say "three-ha’pence to town on the L/M bus"

Peter

That was the service ‘number’ – several YWD services ran as letters.

The ‘A’ buses went from Batley/Birstall through Dewsbury town centre to Thornhill. Later they did multi routes on the ‘A’, making them A1, A2, A3 and A4, to denote which direction they went round Thornhill – I remember those because I caught them to my Grandma’s and needed to know where I had to get off, depending which route it was running. They are now the 281/282/283 I think.

‘B’ and ‘C’ went from Ossett to Fir Cottage, which went past my other Grandma’s. ‘G’ was Cleckheaton. I can’t remember any others just now.

Service "L and M" was Dewsbury to Chickenley, The L went clockwise, the M was anti-clockwise through Chickenley itself (I think it was that way round). They are possibly absorbed into what is now the 126/127 which goes through to Ossett, but it’s donkeys years since I last rode on the bus up that way.
They were converted to numbers by the time we moved to Bradford. My dad went to the Hebble depot (YWD stored a couple of vehicles there) to pick up a YWD bus for the 66 route to Sheffield, long before the current X33. I could catch the 66 all the way from Bradford (Chester Street bus station) to Frank Lane (Rectory Park) at Thornhill, then a walk up the hill to my grandma’s.

Gordon

23/02/11 – 06:30

Just to note Chris Bligh’s comment about the Yorkshire Bus Company Band. My dad had a copy of the LP they released ‘National Tour’, which I have since digitised and added a CD to the music library of the hospital radio station in Doncaster & Bassetlaw, which I’m involved with.
Back to the bus itself – I must take a trip to Rotherham, never knew such a gem was down there! Would be such a surprise to my dad if I could get a picture standing next to it…!

Gordon Sharpe

07/03/11 – 09:27

The YWD F route was Birkenshaw to Batley. Some of the services went on the new Healy by-pass. It was not really a popular duty since there was no-where at Birkenshaw to get a pot of tea. There was a cafe in Batley but I think this was only open early morning.

Jim Broughton

16/03/11 – 17:30

Chris Bligh regarding 773 it was the Bus that Never rang in, I remember drivers bringing sweets for Ivor the Garage man just to have it.
I was also at the workshops in 1963 as Apprentice Auto Electrician and worked under you and Robin before been banished to Beck Lane to work with Herbert Smithson.
With regard to Fred Sharp he was most well known for throwing the running board across the garage every day when you cancelled any buses.
"Happy Days"

Brian Taylor

29/03/11 – 07:24

WOW!!!! What a brilliant web site. Not only do i find the bus I passed my PSV test on, but an old (sorry for the word) colleague Brian !! How the devil are you???? I remember you well!! (Just to clear up a point , when I was at YWDT I was known as Robin Bligh, but after a few years people started calling me Chris and it stuck!!) I have many happy memories of YWDT and the people who worked with us. I’d love hear from you but this site is properly not the place! If you would like to contact me Peter at the Old Bus Photos website has my email address. I would be delighted!!

Chris Bligh

31/03/11 – 15:23

I think the garage man you referred to was Fred Smith at Beck Lane.Can you remember another garage man George Richardson who when you rang a bus in his stock comment was Let it develop.His sister Dorothy was a clippie at Beck Lane together they must have had over 50 years service with the company.

Philip Carlton

04/04/11 – 07:26

Yes Philip, I remember George very well!! He was a great guy, always a smile on his face and I believe he had spent some time in Iceland (the country not the shop) and had wonderful stores to tell about his time there. Also garage men at Beck Lane where Tommy Latham and Norman Pickles all great characters!!. Also remembered are Harry Snowden (Charge hand fitter) Walt Jennings (Foreman) Fred Smith (SS Fitter) Gerald Kay (SS Fitter) and of course Mrs Rocket canteen lady (I use the word lady lightly).
I vividly remember Tommy Latham going out to Bradford to tow in a PD” Decker, with Gerald Kay with the old Tow Truck (Ridged Bar Tow) and arriving back in the depot on his own trailing the tow pole and wondering what had happened to Gerald. He was sent back to find him and did find him in the middle of Heckmondwike blocking all the traffic!!. It took him many (Long) years for him to “Live that one down” .

Chris Bligh

02/07/11 – 07:01

I learnt to drive in this bus in 1965, Clifford Allott was the driving instructor Tom Batty tested and passed me. They are great days to look back on I played football and cricket for the YWD for a few years 1960/1970 finally left the company in 1980. The photos are fine to look back on but they also bring back memories of cold winter mornings sat in cabs with newspaper around the windows to keep the draught out and most of them were an handful to drive I’m thinking mainly of the old Guys and the Salmon cans in particular. But it was an experience I wouldn’t have missed for the world.

John Ward

04/10/20 – 07:21

Great photo, my wife’s grandfather built this vehicle at brush. We have seen it a few times at bus days out.

Mark Dwyer

Photo by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Bridgford Urban District Council
1945
Daimler CWA6
Brush H30/26R

Here is a fine example of a utility body built just at the end of the war all very square and flat with little if any panel beating due to using unskilled labour to build it. You can also see just how small the headlights were and a painted radiator rather than polished alloy or chrome, not that it had anything to do with the war but you can also see the pop out trafficators (top right of photo below).

The CW series (‘W’ stood for “war”) started production in 1943 with the CWG5 which had a Gardner 7.0 litre 5 cylinder engine in total 100 were built before being superseded in the same year by the CWA6. The CWA6 had an AEC 7.7 litre six cylinder engine over 800 were built until in 1945 when Daimler introduced its own 8.6 litre six cylinder engine which was called the CWD6. Production of the CWD ceased in 1946 but due to waiting for bodies some did not get on the road until 1947 the CV series (‘V’ stood for “victory”) followed with production starting in 1946. All CWs regardless of engine had the Daimler fluid flywheel four speed preselective gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes.
The above bus entered service in April 1945 and was withdrawn from service in 1967 according to a fleet list I have dated 2nd April 1965 courtesy of WBUDC it states that this bus still had its Brush body so I do not think it had a rebuild but I bet it had a fair bit of touching up.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

At the St Helens road transport museum there was a Daimler similar to the West Bridgford one here, the engine did not have a cylinder head on so I could see it was a 6 cylinder engine. But no 2 pot was only 2" in diameter while the rest were about 4"-5" any clues? was it a start help cylinder or balance help issue. What engine was it, the fuel injector pump had 6 outlets but no 2 was slightly different. The Vacuum pump was in front of the injector pump.
I remember the West Bridgford buses very well, they always looked a bit more posh than my fathers Nottingham City Transport, dad was commercial manager for many years, which meant I spent many a happy hour in the depot.

Ken Johnson

07/03/11 – 09:27

WBUDC was taken over by NCT in the late 60’s

Roger Broughton

11/06/13 – 12:31

A very belated answer to Ken Johnson’s question about the mysterious tiny piston visible in the temporarily headless AEC 7.7 engine of EWM 358, the ex-Southport Corporation Daimler CWA6 awaiting restoration at the St Helens Transport Museum, which I revisited with great pleasure last Saturday.
One of the pistons is at top dead centre, and with an overlay of dust covering both block and piston the actual bore diameter is obscured. Clearly visible is the toroidal combustion chamber in the piston head, looking for all the world like a baby piston in its own right. To add the the confusion, the other piston that would have been at TDC is missing, so that ALL bores except for the mystery one appear empty. The only inline sixes where only one piston at a time is at TDC are two-strokes, which this engine most definitely isn’t!
The whole vehicle is a major restoration project, so thanks, congratulations and best wishes to the Museum for their achievements up to now and in the future.

Ian Thompson

11/01/16 – 16:00

EWM 358 It was acquired by Blundell’s coaches in March 1957 – I took my double decker test on it. Wilf Blundell who was the British Stock Car champion was a friend of Mrs Topham of Aintree and the Daimler was frequently to be seen in use as a mobile grandstand. It suffered problems with its timber body and I think that is what led to its arrival at St Helens.

EAO

23/09/16 – 06:54

As a further insight to this vehicle I have just become a member of the NWTM and have the job of rebuilding the replacement engine for this vehicle, The original engine had thrown a leg out of bed (smashed the block on both sides due to con rod failure) The heads where removed for inspection.
I will update this agenda as work proceeds.

John P

23/09/16 – 11:01

All utility bodies built of wood suffered from timber problems within 6-8 years, EAO, as green (unseasoned) timber was used in their construction. London Transport started overhauling their Daimler CWA6’s around 1949 and gave up about halfway through the 281 they had. They found that much of the wooden frames had completely disappeared into dust and that correcting the work was far too time-consuming and therefore expensive! They didn’t like the 12 or so CWD’s they were allocated and replaced them fairly quickly with 7.7 AEC engines recovered from scrapped STL’s. One problem with the Daimler engine was that the exhaust manifold was next to the driver and made the cab very hot at times. Also the timing chain was at the rear of the engine and difficult to access. Isn’t the subject of utility buses fascinating???

Chris Hebbron

24/09/16 – 07:44

Gardner engines also had the exhaust on the right hand side, and that certainly didn’t influence their acceptability. I understand, also, that the Daimler CD6 engine had timing gears rather than a timing chain. Both the CD6 and the contemporary Crossley HOE7 copied exactly the bore and stroke dimensions of the pre-war Leyland 8.6 litre unit, but neither came remotely near that fine engine in terms of performance and dependability. The location of the timing train at the rear of an engine permits more accurate timing and allows the entire engine unit to be more compact. The rear location of the timing gears does reduce accessibility, but this only becomes an issue if the engine is of dubious reliability. Dennis adopted rear timing gears in the mid 1930s, and reliability was never an issue with Guildford power plants, unlike those of Daimler and Meadows. Daimler’s engines were of exceedingly variable quality, ranging from appalling to excellent, and London Transport quickly gave up on them. Daimler soon limited the fitment of its own CD6 diesel to single deck versions of the CVD6, where the unit was subject to rather less stress. The Freeline underfloor engined model used the larger 10.6 litre CD650.

Roger Cox

03/10/16 – 06:33

EWM 358 update; The engine has now been rebuilt and should be test run this week, prior to cleaning and refurbing the engine bay. The bearings in the fluid flywheel are at present trying to be sourced as they are the original Hoffman type 325/340 and have so I believe been obsolete for some years, There are however possible alternatives.
The intention being is to refit the engine so the vehicle can be moved under its own power to facilitate restoration.

John P

18/11/16 – 07:08

EWM 358 update. The replacement engine has now been test run and is in good working order, the engine bay is currently being refurbed in preparation for the engine fitting hopefully before Christmas.
A question for all you bus people out there,The Original engine does NOT appear to have a dynamo fitting anywhere on the block. I maybe clutching at straws here but were these fitted with Dynostart units, as all the main battery leads are on the starter side only.
The replacement engine is from a AEC Matador Ex service vehicle and was fitted with the Dynamo unit on the LHS Driven off the vacuum pump, which we are having trouble sourcing as we need the star drive and shaft with it.
More updates to follow

John P

19/11/16 – 08:07

The dynamo on postwar Daimlers was driven by belts from the input to the gearbox, which was mounted half-way down the bus, so there would be no dynamo on the engine. I can only assume that wartime Daimlers were the same.

David Beilby

20/11/16 – 05:46

Thanks for your info David, I will put the boiler suit on and have look.
As usual I will keep you posted and will put some pictures on soon.

John P

20/11/16 – 14:28

The subject of early timber framing deterioration in utility bodies is indeed true in the large majority of cases, but there were certain very commendable exceptions. Samuel Ledgard was very fortunate in this respect and seemed to have reasonably minimum trouble with theirs, new or second hand, whether built by Duple, Roe, Park Royal or Brush. One minor manufacturer though really did "let the side down" – Pickerings, and the two that the Ministry "treated" Ledgard’s to were so ugly and they looked like falling apart very early on. The Duple and Roe ones mostly gave approaching twenty years top line service with little attention other than the "in vogue" fitting of sliding windows to replace the half drop originals. Even the "Sutton depot" ex London Park Royals appeared to escape major timber rot. As with many other folks I find the subject of the utilities to be endlessly fascinating and I greatly enjoyed conducting and driving them.

Chris Youhill

21/11/16 – 07:48

To be fair, Chris Y. most of LTE’s 1946 Park Royal CWA6’s that Samuel Ledgard acquired in 1954 were overhauled in both 1949 and 1952, so most of the green wood was probably replaced by the time of sale! I’d say that SL got a bargain with them. Those of this batch which went to Belfast Corporation were re-bodied immediately by Harkness, which seems a little unnecessary at that point in time. Since Morden accommodated both Sutton and Merton vehicles, it’s certain that some of these buses had both you and me travelling on them at some point in time, Chris Y! The Guys Arab I’s might well have more robust chassis, but the Daimlers were more sophisticated: a classier act, IMHO. My joy was when they were used on the Morden to Epsom Raceday specials. I used to save up much of my pocket money and bunk off school for these rides. The conductors would often not take my fares, bless ’em! It is right to say that the CWD-engined ones performed better, but, if memory serves, there were only 12 of them!.

Chris Hebbron

24/11/16 – 07:26

EWM 358 update, I have now found the dynamo located underneath the bus as advised by David, While I was under there I was amazed at the condition of the lower timber floors and the body out riggers, certainly they are black, but they appear in general rot free, it is intended when the engine is soon to be installed, to remove some of the side panels for inspection, but if the ones that cant be seen are in the same condition as the lower ones the restoration maybe a lot less involved.

John P

29/11/16 – 08:46

EWM 358 update, The engine is now fitted back in the bus, However nothing is yet connected to it so it has not yet warmed the exhaust. Its nice to see it in its rightful place after all the years.

John P

30/11/16 – 07:01

This is all very interesting, John P. Do keep us informed of progress. Glad that the body condition seems to be positive.

Chris Hebbron

02/12/16 – 07:11

As a member of the above museum, I have been helping John with some of the engine replacement in the bus, as he says we ran the engine on a ‘dolly’ outside the museum a couple of weeks ago and it ran ok.
Will be nice to see it move under it’s own power after over 30 years as a static – albeit – somewhat derelict exhibit!
Cannot wait to see it move under it’s own power in the future!

Norman Johnstone

12/01/17 – 06:42

As promised update on EWM358, after changing the oil and conneecting the fuel system, Batterys were connected and after a few seconds on the starter the engine fired for the first time in the bus.
It smoked a bit then settled to a nice tickover.
However we do have a leak problem with the radiator it appears to have rusted some of the tubes out, but we will see what can be done.
OK now for the I need help bit. I know that this bus was supplied new to Southport in 27/02/1945 Fleet No 62 and was in service with them till 1953/4 and then sold to Wilf Blundell Circa 1957, it then went to Aintree race course as a mobile grandstand where presumably it threw the con rod through the block,it was later bought by a soliciter which is how it came to be in our museum. Can anyone fill in the gaps with the history, or even have photos especially when it was at Aintree.
More updates will follow.

John P

01/02/17 – 17:15

Belfast were aware of the issues with the utility bodies so having refurbished the chassis and fitted a new body these vehicles were a lesser cost route for a brand new vehicle effectively. They weren’t rebodied immediately – they were acquired in 1953 and rebodying did not commence until 1955/6. All gave 15 year lives so BCT got good value out of their vehicles. One example 476 (GYE 98) former LT D93 is preserved.

Bill Headley