W. Alexander & Sons Ltd.
1953
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Alexander L27/26R

W. Alexander & Sons Ltd Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Alexander lowbridge bodywork RB161 DWG 917, ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ have it listed as new to Alexander in 1952, ‘British Bus Fleets have RB160 DWG 916 listed at 1953, though not all of the batch are listed. But other sources on the web have it dated at 1954, clarification on this matter may prove interesting.

As can be seen below the RB161 fleet number plate is a small plate with the letters ‘BN’ which stood for the ‘Bannockburn’ depot.
It is seen at A-Bus in October 2014 on a trip in connection with the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

06/11/14 – 08:23

This bus is not in Alexander (Midland) livery, but in the W. Alexander livery that existed until 1961 when the fleet was split into three – Midland, Fife and Northern. The fleet numbers were then prefixed with M, F or N respectively.
This bus latterly ran in the attractive yellow and cream colour scheme of Alexander (Northern) and is seen in the attached photo along with sister NRB163 at Elgin depot on 6th September 1970, complete with E’ depot plate.

David Beilby

06/11/14 – 08:25

I have changed the header and copy to remove the (Midland) part.

Peter

06/11/14 – 09:06

W.Alexander & Sons Leyland Titan, DWG 917 was first registered on 4th June 1953. As part of the new vehicle licencing system the DVLA has a public website which shows if your vehicle is currently road taxed, it also shows when a vehicle was first registered, just google "vehicle enquiry service.gov.uk", enter your registration and chassis type to check if your vehicle is covered.

Ron Mesure

Edinburgh Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H43/31F

This photo shows Edinburgh Corporation 801 ESF 801C taken in 1967, 801 was the corporation’s first Atlantean with Alexander H74F bodywork delivered in February 1966,it was I think the first double deck body with panoramic windows and may have been exhibited at the 1965 Scottish motor show at Kelvin Hall which could explain it’s 1966 delivery. The next batch 802-825 EWS 802-825D with identical Alexander bodies were delivered in October 1966 had the then normal short window bays and these were delivered shortly after 826-850 EWS 826-850 which were Leyland PD3A/2’s with Alexander H70F bodies, canny Scots hedging their bets perhaps.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

19/06/14 – 09:33

Beauty is in the eye, as they say. The big window version of the Alexander ‘Y’ type, was arguably the best looking single deck Bus or D/P of its generation. However, as with the Southdown Queen Mary, for me the big window version of these just didn’t work. The NGT Group had a number of the small window versions, Newcastle Corporation had both large and smaller window types, they also had some rather strange large window types with the stairs on the ’ wrong’ side, and a centre exit. After a series of accidents, the union refused to use the centre exit, and as the vehicles were due for overhaul, the doors were removed and extra seats fitted.

Ronnie Hoye

21/06/14 – 06:29

Centre exits seem to have been a passing fad of the late 1960s. What was the real issue with them, as they seem to be the norm in other countries? I’m aware from reading some of these postings that there were structural problems with some single deck dual door bodies. Or was the main thing that the unions didn’t like them, as Ronnie mentions?

Keith

21/06/14 – 08:55

There were structural problems on double deckers as well. SELNEC had problems in later life with Mancunians. There were problems with accidents and the unions, in the interest of their members, took against them. Meant to reduce time at stops by having all passengers disembark at the centre door, all too often they didn’t and many tried to board there leaving the driver trying to collect fares, deal with any form of pre paid passes and monitor the centre door as well as keeping an eye on the seats remaining, in a difficult position.
Multi doors work well elsewhere where either the bulk of fares are prepaid or there is a second crew member and where some form of load counting actually works – the technology of the time didn’t.

Phil Blinkhorn

21/06/14 – 15:21

Silly question, perhaps, but is it really a LEYLAND Atlantean? I ask because some for Scottish operators had ALBION badges, including Glasgow’s KUS607E which now resides at the St Helens museum.

Pete Davies

22/06/14 – 06:38

Yes this was definitely a Leyland Atlantean Pete as you can see the figure of Atlas on the badge whereas the Glasgow Albion badged Atlantean’s had the St Andrews cross in it’s place as can be seen on the attached photo of KUS 593E taken a couple of years later in central Glasgow.

Diesel Dave

22/06/14 – 09:05

I seem to remember that the Albion badge on the Atlantean was a Glasgow only spec.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/06/14 – 13:04

Thank you, Dave and Phil!

Pete Davies

23/06/14 – 06:33

It could be that it was more efficient to send several chassis in kit form to be assembled at the Albion works in Glasgow, and then onto Alexander to have the body fitted, rather than one at a time in completed form, after all, the Alexander works was at Falkirk, which is not that far from Glasgow. At the end of the day, any differences would probably be down to badge engineering.

Ronnie Hoye

16/08/14 – 05:49

The "Albion" Atlanteans supplied to Glasgow followed a batch of "Albion" PD3s. Leyland got the blame for deleting half the Albion range in the early 1950s after the Albion takeover, when in actual fact Albion were already in the process of doing just that when financial troubles caught up with them. The Albion badges were applied as a gesture to the Glaswegian population in an attempt to settle the ill-feeling.

Paul

17/08/14 – 07:35

Edinburgh and Lothian stuck with dual doors into the low floor era. The Leeds dual door buses gave 15 plus years of service. In later years they found themselves in such esoteric locations as Ilkley and Skipton following the absorption of WYRCC by Yorkshire Rider.

Chris Hough

Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited
1959
Bristol MW6G
Alexander C41F

MSD 358; fleet number NT1494, is a 1959 Bristol MW6G, one of 52 with Alexander C41F bodies built for Western SMT. They remained in service until 1977, which speaks volumes for the build quality of the body and chassis and the thoroughness of Western’s maintenance programme. The wheel trims on the vehicle behind would suggest that its an AEC, it has a coach door, and at the risk of splitting hairs I would say this ones folding doors and grab rails on the backs of the seats are more the type associated with a DP rather than a coach. This style of body was widely used by SMT group operators, and they were a common sight on the Newcastle to Edinburgh and Glasgow services jointly operated with United. They have a resemblance to the Park Royal bodies of the era, and I always thought they were attractive vehicle. However, unlike the later ‘Y’ type that became a common sight throughout the UK, they were never that popular South of the Border, although North Western did have a few.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

22/05/14 – 07:27

North Western’s used the BET standard bus shell (known to Alexander as the Z type) with a straight waist-rail and equal windows throughout the length except for the very rear. Alexanders just stuck their front end (as seen on this vehicle) onto the BET spec body. North Western called them "Highlanders" and painted them in coach livery. As a coach they made a perfectly acceptable dual-purpose vehicle!

Neville Mercer

22/05/14 – 07:28

Ronnie, I think you’ll find that North Western’s examples were of the straight waistrail variant. You could almost say that this one anticipated bus grant type doors by a good few years!

Chris Barker

22/05/14 – 07:28

The North Western vehicles came in 1961as Reliances in 30 ft length with a straight window line and equal length windows plus roof quarter lights. They were followed in 1962 by the 36 ft version on the Leopard chassis.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/05/14 – 07:29

Strange to think that they also had almost identical Guys. Both were highly regarded so must simply have been a dual sourcing thing. Strictly speaking, the only English examples belonged to Barton – North Western never had any of these. What North Western DID have were standard BET bodies (built by Alexanders) but with this front grafted on. These were on Reliances and its first PSU3 Leopards. The recent book on the Y type points out that this twin flat screen design lasted into the ’80s as it was still being used on AL deckers – such as those delivered between 1973 and 1981 to STD and, later, SYPTE.

David Oldfield

22/05/14 – 14:22

Fully agree with the quality of build and good maintenance Ronnie – I recall the Guys working out of Carlisle on services to Annan as late as 1976. What struck me most about Western SMT in those days was that the vehicles were usually turned out in an immaculate condition. The fully lined out livery was also superb though it lost its edge once standard SBG fleet names replaced gold at the end of the decade.

Mike Morton

23/05/14 – 07:55

As well as Barton James Smith & Co (Wigan) Ltd and the associated Webster Bros (Wigan) both had Leyland Tiger Cub versions of this body. The six Barton Tiger Cubs were operated for over 19 years and then sold on to other operators. Now that is long service particularly as Tiger Cubs were considered by many to be too lightweight and not up to the job!

Alan Oxley

23/05/14 – 07:56

David, I think that you might have forgotten the batch supplied to Smiths of Wigan, some of which later served with Green Bus. There was also the Lancashire-registered Tiger Cub/Alexander demonstrator TTB 80 which served with Caelloi Motors in Pwllhelli before ending up with Partridge of Hadleigh (and burning out at the depot!)

Neville Mercer

23/05/14 – 13:06

I stand corrected. Thanks, chaps.

David Oldfield

26/05/14 – 09:36

Note the use of service number ’30X’. The joint Western SMT/Ribble Lancashire-Scottish services, on paper at least, carried different service numbers north and south of Carlisle. The daytime Manchester-Glasgow service was X30 in the Ribble series (and therefore the service number south of Carlisle) and 97A in the WSMT series (north of Carlisle). Maybe WSMT didn’t have letters in the first of the three ‘number’ blinds and so ‘X30′ was displayed as ’30X’. The night service was numbered X20 and 97B on the same basis.
In the summer 1964 timetable the northbound X30 took 9 hours 45 minutes end to end (9 hours 33 minutes southbound). Quite a marathon!
Can anyone tell if this photo was taken in the Manchester area? Perhaps the railway catenary at top right is a clue?

David Slater

03/06/14 – 07:35

Manchester is highly plausible, since very few places had overhead electrified railways in 1959. Manchester had two going on three (Altrincham and Sheffield, with Crewe in progress). So, taking a stab in the dark, I’d suggest the pointy building in the background is not unlike the City Road Inn at the junction of Albion Street and Whitworth Street West. That’s right beside the Altrincham line and a stone’s throw from Lower Moseley Street bus station. Though looking on Street View its hard to place the viewpoint. But so much as obviously changed around there in the intervening 55 years.

Keith

03/06/14 – 11:16

Keith has the location spot on as far as I’m concerned. This was a regular overflow parking spot for Lower Mosley St Bus Station.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/07/14 – 16:29

There was also a 1955 example of this style for Kingston Coaches on Guy Arab LUF; the furthest south this style got.
Alan Oxley will know but I think either Barton or Western SMT were the last customer for this version, Barton switching to Reliances from 1955.
By 1956 the Alexander and SOL were taking a straight waist variant.

Stephen Allcroft

13/10/15 – 06:27

I Remember Edinburgh Corporation had Coaches of this type in its City Tours Fleet. They were on Leyland chassis and looked very smart in there Black and Ivory Colours similar to Western SMTs London coaches. When they were finished with there coaching duties they were sold to Ulster at the beginning of the 1960s. Does anyone have any photos when they were with Edinburgh

George Fender

16/08/16 – 07:26

In the late 60’s, as a student, I travelled several times on the night bus from Manchester to Glasgow. I don’t know about other nights of the week, but on Fridays there were so many passengers that there were three buses. Once you were "in the know", if you were going all the way to Glasgow, it paid to turn up at Lower Moseley Street half an hour in advance of the scheduled time as the first of the three buses would leave early and full and only stop at Penrith for toilets and the all-night cafe. The first time I made the journey, I was on the third bus, which left at the advertised time and stopped everywhere, of course getting to Penrith just after a lot of other buses going north and south so the queue at the cafe was just too long to contemplate. As I remember it, though, even the third bus would arrive at Glasgow much earlier than timetabled.

Malcolm Wood