Potteries Motor Traction
1964
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Alexander H41/31F

Photographed in June 1970 at Manchester, and mercifully still retaining its Potteries livery and logo, is Daimler CRG6LX Fleetline No. L 1001, 5001 VT, with Alexander H41/31F bodywork, the first of a batch of twenty five delivered in April 1964. Ten similar vehicles followed in 1965. L 1001 seems to be remarkably coy about showing its destination, reducing its passenger information down to a sticker in the windscreen. Was this route not a standard operation for this type of vehicle, which would not then have had Manchester on its blind display?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

17/03/19 – 09:11

Yes Roger,
It should be able to show ‘Manchester’ in the top half of the box (where it reads P.M.T.) and the second line would show X2 in Bold, with Knutsford over Altrincham (where it shows ‘Service’) There are photos on the web of the PD3’s that used to run this service and I have downloaded a copy of Fleetline 964 from the web in exactly the same place showing the full service blind that I refer to.The layover seemed to be quite lengthy and in busy times, the vehicle would have to vacate the stand and park on Lower Mosley Street itself, prior to returning to load up for the return journey. I spent many hours in my spotting days here but sadly I never got to ride on the service, principally as it was an out and back service TO Manchester. These Alexander bodied Fleetlines did not look out of place here as they were look alikes of North Westerns own examples and when PMT provided an NCME bodied Fleetline, of course that resembled LUT’s which used LMS on the Blackpool service, as all had a basic Red/Cream livery.

Mike Norris

18/03/19 – 07:08

North Western’s Fleetlines had single piece curved windscreens, single headlamps and different sidelights and the NWRCC colour scheme with a lighter red and more cream was much less drab. PMT’s colours on its double decker fleet didn’t exactly brighten up the Potteries’ landscape.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/03/19 – 06:15

The PMT vehicles often parked in Whitworth Street West. This road was close to LMS and was between the two railway lines that ran from the old Central Station and the line from Oxford Road. In my spotting days the low bridge Atlanteans were common fare.

Andrew Gosling

20/03/19 – 06:16

The ABC Coach and Bus Guide for the Winter period 1969/1970 contains a timetable for the Potteries to Manchester PMT service X2. Points served were Newcastle-under-Lyme, Hanley, Burslem, Tunstall, Kidsgrove, Lawton Arms, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford. Set downs were at Altrincham, Sale, Stretford and Manchester (Lower Mosley Street). (A full fare table was not shown.
The timetable shows ‘dep’ for departure times up to and including Lawton Arms and ‘arr’ for arrival times at Altrincham and beyond. However, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford have neither ‘dep’ or ‘arr’ which may mean they could have been both pick-up and set down points).
The northbound departure times were:
09:20 from Newcastle-under-Lyme (arriving Manchester 11:30) on Saturdays and Sundays
14:30 from Hanley (arriving Manchester 16:30) on Fridays and Saturdays
The southbound departure times were:
12:00 from Manchester (arriving Hanley 14:00) on Saturdays
18:00 from Manchester (arriving Newcastle-under-Lyme 20:10) on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays
PMT also ran a Hanley to Birmingham service X1 which had a similar format timetable.

David Slater

21/03/19 – 06:58

Bury also had some Alexander Fleet lines, 117 to 131, later 6317-31, but they had flat windscreens and were the full height version.

David Pomfret

26/03/19 – 06:53

David Slater’s description of the timetable is very helpful. Was it really the case that passengers were only allowed 30 minutes to spend in the city of Manchester.
Barely time to purchase a cup of tea and an Eccles Cake!

Petras409

02/07/19 – 05:59

L1001. 5001 VT was allocated to Newcastle Garage and service X2 was operated by Hanley Garage it may have been the case that ‘Manchester’ was not on the destination blind. Out of interest the bus was destroyed by a fire at Newcastle Garage in 1975.

Leekensian

12/02/20 – 16:38

On a matter related to P.M.T double deck Fleetlines, I recall travelling on Burslem based Northern Counties bodied L967 and noted that the electronic gear shift had been replaced by a floor mounted air assisted unit. If my memory serves me right I cannot recall ever coming across this feature on any other P.M.T. Fleetline. There must have been a reason for this change – I just wonder what it was.

Leekensian

23/02/20 – 09:43

In the early days of semi automatic gearboxes – Fleetline, Atlantean etc – PMT had concerns over the reliability of the ep (electro-pneumatic) valves which actuated the air supply to the different gear ratios. As early as 1957, the prototype PD3 (PMT H7700) had a direct air change from a floor mounted pedestal. On the early Fleetline in particular where the ep valve was mounted on the gearbox bell housing this was vulnerable to serious damage in the (not infrequent) failure of the trailing link coupling between the engine and transmission. This was moved under the lower deck rear seat on later variants of the Fleetline. Just how suspicious PMT were of electro-pneumatic control was evidenced by the removal and blanking off of the neutral warning light on the gearswitch in the cab on the AtlanteansWWG8. I was not aware of this happening with other Operators. Another thought is that the production Roadliners 1965 onwards all had direct air operation from a floor mounted column – the prototype (PMT SN1000 had an ep type gear change). Was the modification on L967 a precursor to the Roadliners? Finally, PMT took 21 single deck Fleetlines in 1970 which had the latest Westinghouse miniaturised direct air gear shift mounted on the steering column. These gave a lot of early trouble where oil in the air pipes caused delay in releasing a gear and effectively had the bus trying to drive in 2 gears for a brief but disconcerting period. Daimler solved this by fitting quick release valves at the gearbox end of each gear air pipe.

Ian Wild

23/02/20 – 16:33

Thanks for your input on Fleetline gear controls. I was aware of the Leyland Pedestal mounted EP’s as Bolton had them on PD2’s and PD3’s. But I am still puzzled about any air change device on Daimlers (there is thread open on the other webpage) I fully understand your comments about the coupling between the 6LX and the Gearbox on Fleetlines, having broken one myself, inadvertently. I was driving LUT Fleetline 184 on service 14 towards New Bury along Bolton Road in Farnworth, a fairly wide road. I was accelerating from a stop and while in third gear needed to pull out to pass a parked van. Indicating this manoeuvre, I became aware of a fairly fast car overtaking me, so came off the accelerator, but then seeing the car flash me to pull out, I re-applied my foot onto the pedal – Bang ! Disaster ! – bits of the coupling came through the bonnet housing, and more were embedded in the engine housing behind the rear seat. I received a caution for poor driving but that was later rescinded when the T&GWU represented me at a disciplinary hearing as the fault became more widely known about. Yes, the later FEGR Fleetlines had a small lever in a mini pneumocyclic style gear change that was mounted on the cab offside (not true Fleetlines though).
So still learning about Fleetlines all these years later, but still believe that electric control was better than air, for the reasons you have stated.

Mike Norris

25/02/20 – 05:49

In reply to Ian, the conversion could have been a precursor to the Roadliners but given that L967 was a 1963 delivery would the Engineering Department at PMT have made the conversion to such a new bus?

Leekensian

29/02/20 – 06:56

Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited
1961
Leyland Titan PD3A/3
Alexander L35/32RD

RCS 382 is a Leyland Titan PD3A/3 with Alexander L67RD body, new to Western in 1961. It was still owned by Western when the 2012 PSVC list was prepared, but with the ‘Stagecoach’ fleet number of 19982 instead of her original. In this view, on Middle Walk, Blackpool, on 29 September 1985, It was taking part in the Tramway Centenary celebrations.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

02/01/17 – 07:45

Only my opinion, but I think they looked better when the wheels were red. That said, was there ever a better turned out large fleet than that of Western?

Ronnie Hoye

Barton Transport
1960
AEC Reliance 2MU3RV
Alexander C41F

The independent Barton company became very satisfied customers of the AEC Reliance, taking its first one early in 1955. In subsequent years many more entered service, Alexander and Plaxton bodywork being favoured. Here is one of a batch of five 2MU3RV coaches with Alexander C41F bodywork delivered in May/June 1960. 839 EVO is seen in the summer of 1961 in London on Elizabeth Bridge, which straddles the main Southern railway line just south of Victoria Station. The present day transformation of the somewhat neglected building immediately behind the coach, notwithstanding the fact that it sits directly alongside a cutting carrying trains into the second busiest railway terminal in Britain (Waterloo is No.1) is evidence of the ‘gentrification’ of much of our capital city – (Oh for the old days).

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

02/12/16 – 07:17

This type of Alexander body was widely used by Scottish companies, and were a common sight in the likes of Carlisle ‘Western’ and Newcastle ‘SMT’, but unlike the later ‘Y’ types, they weren’t embraced by many operators south of the border. That said, they weren’t a million miles away from the Park Royal bodies of the time. Was there a link?

Ronnie Hoye

02/12/16 – 16:03

Barton also had a number of Leyland Tiger Cubs with this style of body. I think they were designated dual-purpose, but it was rather stretching the meaning of the term. The seating standard was at the extreme "bus" end of DP. They were used quite a lot on the 15 Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley route. The Reliances were very much more coach style. I remember seeing them on the Nottingham – Warsaw service that ran for a few years in the 1960s. Strangely (most of?) the Reliance "coaches" had route number/destination indicators above the rear windows, whereas none of the Tiger Cub "DP/buses" had them.

Stephen Ford

02/12/16 – 16:49

Ronnie,
The PRV link with this body was indirect in that both this and the PRV ‘Royalist’ coach on Reliance were inspired by alloy-framed ECW and Scottish Aviation bodies of a couple years earlier. This style was first fitted to four pre-production Tiger Cub Coaches in late 1952. The first Royalist was on a Reliance for Birch Brothers in 1954. Also in 1954 SOL and ALexander took PRV bodied AEC Monocoaches and from 1955-57 had Monocoaches Reliances and Tiger Cubs with Alexander bodies to the same outline, after that they took a body with this frontal treatment but a straight waist. Meanwhile Barton and Western SMT took this style until 1960.
PRV and Alexander both moved from Aluminium to Steel frames for their bodies at the turn of the decade to get BET orders, both built 30ft bodies to BET outline, and Alexander also combined this front with 31ft bodies for the Alexander companies and North Western in 1961 and 36ft Leopards in 1962 for North Western.

Stephen Allcroft

03/12/16 – 07:01

I took a rear end photo of a 1961 Barton Plaxton Panorama coach at Chilwell in September that had a destination box like Stephen F mentions.
www.ipernity.com

David Slater

11/05/17 – 06:42

Roger, do you know what would become of the five Alexander bodied Reliances? Were any of them ever sold to Ireland?

Bill Headley

11/05/17 – 19:15

I am sorry, Bill, but I have not been able to ascertain the later lives of these Alexander bodied Reliances, but OBP has some remarkably informed contributors, so hopefully some information will turn up.

Roger Cox

12/05/17 – 06:55

Stephen (Ford) – I’m intrigued to know more about the Nottingham to Warsaw service, which you say operated for a time in the 60’s! That, if true, might be more useful today!

David J Smith

12/05/17 – 10:41

Think you will find Midlands-Warsaw services are running regularly just operated by Polish operators.

Roger Burdett

13/05/17 – 07:16

Actually Roger my sense of humour was asserting itself there and I was being flippant. I think Stephen’s spellchecker had run ahead of him, as they do, way when possibly he meant the Nottingham to WORKSOP service, unless it was really true in the 1960’s, can’t see why though………!

David J Smith

13/05/17 – 07:17

I think that Polish-operated services run in and out of many UK towns and cities nowadays. There is a weekly one to/from Gloucester to Warsaw and I’ve come across several Brits who’ve used the service for a break there. These services seem to be run by the large Polish coach company, Sindbad

Chris Hebbron

13/05/17 – 07:36

Hello David, I found this snippet from "Commercial Motor" dates 12 April 1963 : "Nottingham-Warsaw Bus Service Ends An express bus service from Nottingham to Warsaw has been discontinued because so few Poles can afford the £28 return fare to their homeland. The single-decker bus made the 2,000 mile round trip for the first time last August.
The journey took two days—from Nottingham to Harwich, through Holland and Germany to Warsaw. But now Barton Transport Ltd., Chilwell, Notts, says the demand for the tickets is not sufficient to make the service Pay. Mr. Carl Barton, a director and traffic manager, said: "The Polish people showed great interest—Until it came to booking seats".

Stephen Ford

13/05/17 – 09:53

Stephen, Re the Nottingham to Warsaw service of 1963. That’s brilliant of you to reply and come up with the goods.
There’s nothing new under the sun is there? Who would have thought 50 years ago that services from many UK cities to Poland would be a commonplace thing in the Noughties!

David J Smith

13/05/17 – 16:00

There was a fair concentration of Poles in and around Nottingham (including at least one who was a conductor and, I believe, later an inspector with Bartons.) Many were former airmen who came over during the war to continue the fight. I suspect that the difficulty was not so much the £28 return fare as all the other add-ons and hassle. A return transit visa for East Germany was around another £5, and I’m not sure how welcome "pre-war Poles" were by the authorities in post-war Communist Poland.
And no, I’m pretty sure Barton didn’t have Worksop on their destination blinds. Nottingham – Worksop was a long-standing Trent (80)/East Midland (37) joint route, and any such ideas from Barton would have been taken to a Traffic Commissioners’ hearing and strangled at birth!

Stephen Ford

14/05/17 – 07:30

The Alexander body single deckers and others of the 1960s at Bartons were often fitted with secondhand recovered high back coach seats when the bus was new then changed to second hand but recovered service bus seats after about 2 years, Later this was stopped,,the Alexander bodys were very sound and did not look dated ,,
I started in 1961 and worked there until the awfull trent takeover of 89,most of my time there was running repairs and breakdowns/recovery and sometimes emergency PSV driving and also overtime private hire and service bus driving ,,trent engeneering director seen me with my drivers uniform on and said you won’t be driving under trent,I said I know thankfully you made me redundant,

Mr Anon

14/05/17 – 07:30

According to Alan Oxley’s history of Barton (part 3), the first (and only) round trip of service X60 (Nottingham – Warsaw) left Nottingham on Sunday 5 August 1962, at 1pm, taking as Stephen says, two days to reach Warsaw. It returned the following Saturday, arriving back in Nottingham on the Monday.I understand prolonged delays at Eastern Bloc countries were a significant factor in the service not running again, it was the time of the Cold War and the Cuban missile crisis after all. Two newly delivered Yeates bodied Reliances were used,49 seater 949 (949 MRR) from Nottingham to Harwich, and 945(945 MRR) from the Hook of Holland to Warsaw. 945 had been reduced to a 36 seater fitted with reclining seats, a toilet compartment and electric razor sockets (!). I can confirm 949 was used on the English leg, as I was at Huntingdon St to see it off – somewhere I have a photo of it prior to departure. Shortly after the round trip, 945 was reseated and the toilet removed. Every time I see a Sinbad coach in Nottingham, it reminds me of this Barton innovation.

In reply to Bill Headley’s query above, according to the Circle fleet histories of Barton, none of this batch went to Ireland; however, there was a similar batch which entered service in 1959, 808-13(808-13CAL).Of these, 809 is given to Dodd, (dealer) Dromara 5/72, later to Lafferty, Glengad 4/73 and to unidentified farmer, Togher by 5/79.
811 is given to Dodds (dealer) Dromara 5/72, nothing further recorded.

Bob Gell

04/10/17 – 07:13

Thanks for this information Bob. I suspect the vehicle was destroyed in the summer of 1972 in the Derrybeg Estate, Newry – which is not very far away from Dromara. It was possibly owned by the local GAA and 811 CAL would seem to fit the frame as being the vehicle shown.

Bill Headley

09/09/18 – 06:15

The driver on Loline 861 (X42) was Harry Bell his wife was a conductor operating from Chilwell garage.
I drove the last Switzerland tour I think it was in 1978
But not sure ?

Paul Annison

12/09/18 – 05:38

As well as the airmen there were a large number of ex-miners from Poland from all 3 armed services who settled in the UK, many employed in the mines here.
As an ex-paperboy I remember delivering several copies of the "Polish Daily ( including Soldiers Daily)" on my paper round and one of my friends was the son of a Polish soldier, who was married to a Russian lady who at one time was in Ravensbruck concentration camp. I thought it all very exotic ( especially his rather delightful elder sister whom I worshipped from afar…..).
I think the main problem visiting was not financial. The ex-military types were very unwelcome, and I think the authorities were somewhat afraid of contamination, particularly in the aftermath of the Hungarian uprising. There might have been some reluctance too in view of a fear of retaliation for being resident on the wrong side of the iron curtain.

Malcolm Hirst