Lowestoft Corporation
1947
AEC Regent II
ECW H30/26R

Preserved Lowestoft Corporation 21, GBJ 192, a 1947 AEC Regent II with an ECW H30/26R body seen at East Anglia Transport Museum. More information about Lowestoft Corporation Transport can be found at www.petergould.co.uk/lowestoft1.htm

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

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09/02/14 – 11:38

Nice view, Ken. Thanks for posting. Of course, we’d expect Lowestoft to support the local firm, wouldn’t we. The application of the livery is reminiscent of Newport who, until not long ago had a green and cream version and it’s reminiscent of the Dinky Toys STL.

Pete Davies

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09/02/14 – 11:39

Beautiful picture of a beautiful bus. Just think of what we were deprived of by the Transport Act. ECW bodied AECs from 1948 to 1965 – not to mention Roe or Weymann bodied Bristols.

David Oldfield

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09/02/14 – 16:35

I Remember traveling on this bus up the Norwich Rd when in my teens plus other routes in Lowestoft.
Bad day when the corporation buses were taken over by the double n people.

Steve

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10/02/14 – 07:54

I’ve just read the article at the link above – what went wrong at Lowestoft/Waveney? In the late 1960s it seems Lowestoft Corporation considered selling the bus undertaking to ECOC, but finding the offer unacceptable then proposed route extensions . . . but lost-out in the traffic courts to ECOC. In April 1974 a joint services agreement with ECOC was reached . . . which was dissolved in March 1976, when most of the services reverted to ECOC. Seemingly reduced to being a one-route operator Waveney DC threw in the towel in December 1977 and sold the undertaking on to ECOC.
I have a Lowestoft Setright ticket from the days of Waveney DC, which is titled "Lowestoft Passenger Transport – Waveney DC Lowestoft…etc" (in black). Did Lowestoft vehicles wear this livery (with traditional lettering) to the end? and what changed when it became Waveney??

Philip Rushworth

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10/02/14 – 07:56

I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen another ECW body like this one – it seems to have more than a touch of the Park Royal about it. It’s certainly very stylish and it’s fortunate that it’s been preserved.

Chris Hebbron

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10/02/14 – 09:51

Maybe just the angle, Chris, but it’s the standard body for the time as found on numerous Bristol Ks and Chris Y’s favourite PD1As. It also appeared briefly as a Northern Coachbuilders’ body – as in the Newcastle Regent III. The livery not being a Tilling standard makes a lot of difference!

David Oldfield

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10/02/14 – 15:02

There’s always been something of a mystery about these vehicles, there were ten of them, the only AEC Regent II’s bodied by ECW. Lowestoft had nine of them, the tenth went to Ebor Transport of Mansfield and was registered HAL 841. Nine would seem an odd quantity for Lowestoft to order and it seems equally unlikely that Ebor would have chosen ECW to body an odd Regent. I’ve always thought they must have been one batch so did Lowestoft order ten and then decide they only needed nine? Perhaps we will never know now. Incidentally, HAL 841 entered ‘Tilling’ ownership when Ebor was taken over by Mansfield District.

Chris Barker

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11/02/14 – 07:10

Chris B, Messrs Doggett and Townsin’s Book ‘ECW 1946-1965’ mentions the nine ECW-bodied Regent IIs for Lowestoft and that "a tenth body of similar design was built on the same type of chassis for the Ebor Bus Co Ltd". The text also states that the Lowestoft vehicles had body numbers 1579-1587, with the Ebor body directly following (1588). It does seem odd as you say, that the independent Ebor asked ECW to body one chassis, but the authors also mention that another independent took delivery of six ECW-bodied Leyland Tiger PS1 buses in 1946/47, namely Birch Bros of London. David O’s comments about the Transport Act depriving us of some fascinating chassis/body combinations certainly rings true. Just imagine a Roe-bodied Lodekka, or ECW-bodied Daimler CVG6….

Brendan Smith

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11/02/14 – 17:40

But we did get ECW bodied Leyland PD2s and Leyland Leopard L1s for Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee and Bristol LSs and MWs with Alexander bodies for Western S.M.T. Also rebodied Bristol Ks with Weymann bodies for Maidstone and District.

Stephen Bloomfield

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12/02/14 – 06:55

Thanks Stephen, that’s very true, and how could such gems have slipped my mind? (Especially as the Sheffield examples are shown on this very website!) On the same tack Rotherham had batches of East Lancs-bodied Bristol K and KS types. ECW bodied Albions for Red & White, and Guy Arab IIIs for Middlesbrough, as well as Leyland Royal Tigers for United (coaches) and Cumberland (buses). One tends to forget just how many advance orders had been placed with both Bristol and ECW for delivery after the nationalisation watershed of 1948.

Brendan Smith

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13/02/14 – 08:09

West Yorkshire also had a batch of prewar Bristol k’s rebodied by Roe in 1953 of which KDG 26 (CWX 671) is still with us.

Keith Clark

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13/02/14 – 09:54

Two none Bristol ECW bodied vehicles from the United fleet. Both are PSU1/15 Leyland Royal Tigers. LUT1; PHN 801 was one of nine C39F coaches bought in 1952 for the Tyne Tees Thames Newcastle London route: LU4; RHN 766 was from a batch of B45F service vehicles from 1953. I don’t know the ins and outs of what happened at Carlisle, but when LU4 was based there, the depot was run by United, some Darlington registered vehicles ended up in the Ribble fleet, and then I think all Carlisle operations became Cumberland. Perhaps someone can enlighten us?

Ronnie Hoye

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14/02/14 – 06:42

Ronnie, So far as I am aware, United operations in Carlisle passed to Ribble when NBC was established. With the run-up to privatisation, Ribble was split, and the northern area passed to Cumberland, while the Liverpool area (did it include Southport?) went to a new firm reviving the old North Western name. Others may know otherwise!

Pete Davies

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15/02/14 – 06:11

In the old days, when we were young, there was a lot of BET/Tilling overlap. There was also a lot of historical "baggage". United historically ran Leyland coaches – and continued to do so as long as possible. Cumberland had at least 50% private ownership and were a Leyland fleet – until Tilling came into the ascendency in the ’50s. Carlisle was given to Ribble by NBC in 1969/70. When Ribble and Cumberland came into common Stagecoach ownership, Cumbria went to Cumberland and Lancashire to Ribble.

David Oldfield

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15/02/14 – 06:12

I know, I’m a bit behind the thread, but thanks to Ken Jones for posting the photo of Lowestoft Corporation No.21. As I’ve only just seen it on the website I must a rant as this bus is one of my favourite machines. Everything about it takes my breath away. The deep maroon and primrose livery which appears quite plain and Dinky 290’ish, which in itself is a lovely period half and half style, has thin black lining, then emblazoned along the lower panels is the large serif Corporaton fleetname. Inside, a lovely maroon chain-link style moquette covered the seats (see photograph). The Regent II/ECW combination always fascinated me and eventually I got a ride on this wonderful bus at the 2012 ECW 25 year Commemoration weekend.
I didn’t realise, until I read Malcom R. Whites "Lowestoft Corporation Transport- Bygone Town Services" (ISBN 0-9532485-9-3) book how the Corporations routes were severely restricted to basically north-south with loops on each end and have always wondered why they were not extended inland to places like Oulton Broad and Carlton Colville.
The Rotterdam Road bus depot building still survives, but now owned by an industrial concern.

Graham Watling

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15/02/14 – 06:13

W Alexander & Sons had 12 Daimler CVD6s with ECW ‘Queen Mary’ coach bodies, complete with the Alexander Bluebird emblem. It doesn’t get more mouth-watering than that!

Peter Williamson

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15/02/14 – 06:54

Just to support the latest thread on this marvellous bus a couple of photos one of the interior of lower deck and a rear view.

Graham Watling

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15/02/14 – 10:47

This beautiful moquette pattern, but in blue and cream, was used by Roe in the two new bodies (lower saloons) fitted in 1951 to Samuel Ledgard’s two utility Guy Arabs. I always thought it to be a most appealing design, bold but tasteful.

Chris Youhill

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15/02/14 – 13:39

Chris Y’s comments made me think of something else. The interior shot shows window pans more in the Roe mould than that found on standard Bristol/ECW vehicles. [Were there not overtures to ECW from both Roe and Roberts in the pre WW II years? There was certainly tooing and froing of major people between the likes of Roe, ECW, Park Royal and Weymann.]

David Oldfield

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16/02/14 – 07:30

I’m a bit slow replying, David O, but you are right about the vehicle looking different when not in Tilling Green. SEE my post www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=4321  And the AEC rad also tends to fool the eye. Finally, the light upper colour diminishes the rather high front roofline which these highbridge bodies possessed. It’s a very satisfying body and livery.

Chris Hebbron

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16/02/14 – 07:31

I only found out today whilst perusing the latest edition of Classic Bus that this style of 5 bay ECW body (albeit in lowbridge form) was fitted to a Daimler, a CWA6 which had been rebodied by one of the Scottish companies. You learn something new every day!

Chris Barker

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19/06/14 – 09:26

Having done much work on this bus during its restoration , I can add that it is a standard ECW ‘K” body fitted to a Regent II chassis this is highlighted around the cab front end area when compared to the Bristol variant , either way it sits well unlike some body builders efforts , another issue that affected maintenance of these vehicles was the provision of the trapdoors in the cab for the starter motor was not ideally suitable and same with the gearbox lifting eye in the lower saloon was too offset to be of use. Another point of interest was the Ebor body no. was found on our example on some of the internal panels I can understand other body numbers being found from the Lowestoft batch because of salvage etc.

Peter Short

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29/06/14 – 17:11

Graham Watling wonders why the Corporation never operated to Oulton Broad and similar. The answer lay in the licensing system whereby the traffic commissioners had to always give the licence for any new route to the "established operator". Thus because Eastern Counties was the first to provide services to Oulton Broad and Oulton, the corporation had no chance of obtaining a licence to operate to those points. The system produced utter farce at times, such as when the Corporation applied for a town centre to Hollingsworth Road service, it could not have a stop in the lower portion of Rotterdam Road because that might lead to abstraction from ECOC service 3, which did not serve the Gunton Estate!
To hell with the customer, the bus company interest came first, I know I was one of many who complained about the bad behaviour of ECOC to our local MP and the Department of Transport. The deregulation of buses was welcome, but unfortunately threw out the baby with the bath water, so that we lost local council fleets in many cases whilst happily getting rid of the NBC and PTEs.

These buses provided a source of pleasure to me from late 1966 when I moved to Lowestoft. Wonderful sound effects! I have an amusing incident concerning one of these lovely buses. I got on one at Station Square one evening after travelling from work at Norwich. The crew boarded, a short pause and communication between them followed, then the conductor asked the men in the lower saloon if we could give the bus a push as the starter motor was stuck. We duly obliged and the bus was soon under way. Happy days!
Perhaps Peter Short can answer a question about these buses. they are shown as Regent IIs but the chassis numbers all commence 0661, which of course is the Regent I So are these really Regent IIs?

Brian Moore

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12/09/15 – 14:38

Brian Moore mentions the "push starting" at Station Square. Well in about 1969 a fellow passenger, the conductor and I had a similar "stuck" starter motor at the No 2 Gunton Drive/Gunton Drive terminus one cold morning when I was trying to get to the station. It was a bit of a push as the road there had ruts caused by the bus wheels always stopping in the same place….!
The conductor did not seem surprised. I think he said that bus 27 had a missing tooth on the starter wheel! I am so glad that one from that batch has been preserved

Christopher Boulter

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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08/01/16 – 06:31

I have just overhauled and re fitted the rear axle on this and if this is any use Brian Moore the chassis number is 06611945 also the rear axle had so many part what no other Regent II had i:e parallel rollers instead of tapered roller bearing and the only explanation I can come up with is that AEC must of used up all the parts from Regent I as I believe these are very early regent II? so effectively it is just a Regent I underneath.
Also was number 27 an AEC Regent III?

Connor

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03/04/19 – 08:45

In reply to Connor’s 08/01/16 question about number 27 which I believe was the bus with the missing starter tooth, it would have been from the same series ie 19-27 like number 21.
None had direction indicators which in the late 1960s caused much confusion with holidaymakers used to such modern extras as the drivers hand would only stick out about 10 inches from the cab window!
The 19-27 series was withdrawn around 1969 to be replaced by the Corporation’s first four front entrance/centre exit single deckers numbers 1-4.
Numbers 28 & 29 were of a later vintage and were around 1969 retrofitted with indicators!
I recall some early/mid 1960s AEC & Leyland double deckers too which had replaced some war/post war utility buses.

Christopher Boulter

Southern National Omnibus Company
1953
Bristol LS6G
ECW C41F

Seen heading along York Place, Harrogate at the end of a Trans-Pennine run is Southern National 1299 (OTT 98), a 1953 Bristol LS6G with ECW C41F coachwork. Resplendent in iconic Royal Blue livery, this coach was part of the last batch to be built with the traditional Royal Blue roof-mounted luggage rack, which was accessed by a set of foldaway steps at the rear of the vehicle. It is a fine example of the underfloor-engined Royal Blue fleet operational in the 1950’s and 1960’s, and it is good to see 1299 wearing its original ‘dark roof’ version of the livery once again. (In 1958, with the arrival of the MW coaches, the livery was altered to a half blue/half cream layout, with dark blue up to waist rail level, and cream above). The 1953 batch of coaches for operation on Royal Blue services were also the last to display ‘Royal Blue Coach Service’ illuminated panels above the side windows. Subsequent deliveries of LS and MW coaches sported the more usual curved roof glasses in the cant rail panels instead.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

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12/01/14 – 07:47

Despite the registration there was nothing OTT about this. Rather understated luxury and quality with the 6LW offering a long legged, relaxed, lope in the pre motorway era.

David Oldfield

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12/01/14 – 11:12

Thanks for posting, Brendan. I have read in different places of the shape caused by the presence of the rooftop luggage rack as being "Camel Back". Rather flattering to a camel, perhaps!

Pete Davies

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12/01/14 – 13:04

There was always something special about Royal Blue coaches and these last-gasp versions of the traditional style are no exception. One point, were the roof racks ever used?

Chris Hebbron

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13/01/14 – 08:44

I thought you might like to add this picture to the current OTT 98 thread as it shows a similar preserved vehicle but in the cream roof colours.

Ken Jones

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13/01/14 – 08:44

The roof luggage carriers were used – I have a copy of a picture (not my copyright though!) of the driver loading luggage on LS car 1292 – in the ‘cream roof’ era, so post 1958.
The reason for the livery change was not ‘cosmetic’ but a practical one – I will look out the exact details in next day or two !

Peter Delaney

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13/01/14 – 09:46

I’m wondering whether this is 1297, OTT 96. Both 1297 and 1299 are preserved but 1297 went to the Netherlands at some stage.

Geoff Kerr

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Close up of registration and fleet number of posted shot.

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13/01/14 – 11:25

I thought this photo may be of interest. It is OTT 98 after sale to the dealer W. North, Sherburn-in-Elmet, seen at their premises during the Summer of 1970.
It was quite a shock to see this here, as I had shortly before been on holiday in North Devon and seen these LS’s still working hard for a living. It was still in splendid condition here and I remember hoping that it would find a suitable. sympathetic new owner. At the time it seemed far too modern to be considered for preservation. Fortunately OTT 96 is still with us.

John Stringer

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13/01/14 – 13:45

Thanks – it does look a bit like 96 though!

Geoff Kerr

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I must admit I did have to go back to the original shot to be sure.

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13/01/14 – 15:17

Both 1297 (OTT 96) and 1299 (OTT 98) are still with us. The former is in The Netherlands as part of the Leek collection at Monickendam, and OTT 98 is now part of the West Country Historic Omnibus and Transport Trust collection, having had a complete engine rebuild in 2007 and was hand painted back into original 1953 livery in 2009. I am delighted to be 1299’s current custodian and sponsor.
I look forward to reading Peter’s explanation as to the reasons for the change in roof colour in 1957.
Incidentally all this 1953 batch, 1293-9 and 2200-2, were down-seated to C39F following mid-life refurbishment at ECW Lowestoft, in 1961, and 1299 remains so.

John Grigg

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13/01/14 – 16:42

Just a reminder you can see a picture of OTT 98 and one of OTT 43 from 2012 on this site at the Royal Blue Run gallery.

Ken Jones

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13/01/14 – 17:40

I attach a photo of 1299 taken in the early 70’s which was taken on Madeira Drive Brighton following a HCVC London-Brighton run. This shows it with a blue roof as it is now preserved so it seems that the roof has changed colour a number of times over the years, I agree that the blue roof looks better but this is purely a personal preference I know.

Diesel Dave

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14/01/14 – 08:22

The ‘incident’ which led to the change in colour of the roof of Royal Blue cars was as below:-
On August 2nd 1957, the 2.35 pm summer only service from Plymouth to Bournemouth, was a Bristol L coach – probably car 1239 – being driven John Whitlock when its roof was grazed by a plane landing at Exeter Airport. The undercarriage hit the top of the coach, breaking both skylights. He drove to the control tower, with the somewhat shaken passengers on board, and reported the incident. The pilot apparently had not seen a coach, and following his reporting the incident, there was an official enquiry, which John was asked to attend.
The incident was reported in the local Exeter newspaper, the ‘Express and Echo’, on 3rd August 1957, under the heading "Bus roof ‘skimmed’ by plane" and "Observers ‘saw nothing unusual’". From the newspaper account we learn that the coach was going along the Exeter – Honiton road, when the roof was "’skimmed’ by a twin engined Mosquito going in to land at Exeter Airport. The plane landed without a mark on it and the coach had a slight dent in the roof. The bus driver felt a slight bump. As there were no other cars on the road at the time he assumed it must have something to do with a plane that had passed low over him. Wing Cmdr. R J B Pearse, manager of the airport, said that a slight dent was found in the roof of the bus, but when an inspection was made of the Mosquito there was not a mark to be found, either on the tyres or the paintwork. The pilot said he had felt nothing at all. ‘We can only assume that the plane did touch the bus’ said Wing Cmdr Pearse. The pilot’s name was withheld".
The subsequent enquiry resulted in an accident report card being filed with the RAF, and that adds further information. The aircraft was a Mosquito Mk 35, number TA724, of the 3/4 CAACU, part of 61 Group, Home Command. The accident occurred at 16.55 on 2nd August 1957, at the end of a 2 hour 10 minute flight out and back from Exeter. This particular flight had been for Army firing practice. The pilot, 35 year old Flt Lt K Munson, was experienced, with 195 flying hours on Mosquitos, and 1567 flying hours overall. The lighting conditions were described as ‘dull’. At the end of the exercise, the pilot had joined the circuit and landed, but he was totally "unaware that his aircraft had struck the single decker bus (sic) travelling on the A30 road which runs adjacent to the airport". The report also records that "damage was caused to the roof of the bus. No damage was sustained to the aircraft."
It was considered that the organisation ‘at station level’ was at fault, as they knew of the danger of a collision between aircraft and vehicles, but had "made inadequate efforts to have remedial action taken." The A30 passed across the approach to runway 13, at a distance of 50 yards. There were no traffic signals or warning notices on the road, and there was a tall hedge bounding the road which "would effectively prevent the pilot seeing the bus and vice versa". No blame was attached to the pilot (who was making a low approach in order to touch down early on a short runway) or the driver.
As a result, 150 yards of the runway 13/31 were ‘sterilized’, and a local flying order issued to warn pilots of the dangers likely to be met on the approach to runway 13, whilst the roof of Royal Blue coaches was changed from dark blue to cream, to make them more conspicuous from the air.

Peter Delaney

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14/01/14 – 11:48

I’ve just checked my original his-res image, and it definitely is OTT 98, confirmed by my notes taken at the time I wasn’t aware that it was also preserved – that’s nice to know.

John Stringer

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14/01/14 – 12:27

The give away in the photo that it can only be OTT 98 is that the words "Dorset Transport Circle" are shown in the "via" part of the destination display. DTC owned this coach for well over 30 years and rallied it extensively for most of that time before generously donating it to WHOTT in 2006.

John Grigg

East Midland Motor Services
1968
Bristol RELL6G
ECW B49F

East Midland was an early user of the Bristol RE/ECW combination once they became generally available. This example is seen in Bawtry on 13 July 1968 when it was about three months old.
The rich red livery really suits the vehicle whilst the vertically mounted twin headlamps give a touch of class. How could NBC impose the lacklustre poppy red and leaf green schemes? East Midland even had to change to being a green fleet post 1972. Note the lack of sliding or hopper windows, in common with other BET Companies at this time ventilation is provided by three lift up ventilators in the roof. The only discordant note is the early style shallow windscreens which must have been a real problem to taller drivers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

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26/12/13 – 12:19

These were among the first non-Tilling RE’s that I saw and I remember being very excited at the prospect of Bristols becoming more common, perhaps even in the Manchester area; this did indeed happen, and for a while I was able to travel to work on North Western RE’s.
I drove two or three of Crosville’s "shallow windscreen" RE’s, and beyond the excitement of driving an RE (we were the only Welsh Crosville Depot with no RE buses) I found that the low windscreen top added interest; the top of the windscreen was always in my peripheral vision, but not enough to cause a problem.

Don McKeown

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26/12/13 – 14:27

Everyone praises REs. When I was in Widnes and working in a school garden. We had greenhouses about 50 yards from the road.
Every hour a Crossville RE would come past and the greenhouses didn’t half rattle from the exhaust noise of these buses!

Jim Hepburn

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26/12/13 – 18:02

In my South Yorkshire/North Derbyshire youth EMMS was a local operator to me. They operated AECs and Leylands – which they then dropped for Bristols. Well I could forgive the Leylands, but not the AECs. Nevertheless, as a student on the X67, travelling from Chesterfield to Manchester (and back) I grew to appreciate the RE more and more and – along with WYRCC on the Yorkshire services to London – to rate it second only to the 6U3ZR Reliance as a premium coach. Many a happy mile was added on visits to Tilling lands across the country – including the X43 from Leeds to Scarborough. …..and then the epic journeys from Manchester to Glasgow or Edinburgh by Ribble and the one off Eastern Scottish ex London RE. I could go on and on – oh sorry, I am doing – but the great joy has been to drive REs late in service life and then in preservation. A real. and deserved, classic. So what did EMMS do? Replaced RELH coaches on the X67 with Nasties – Green Mk I Nationals with slippery bus seats. […..but I bet they wouldn’t have without the strong arm antics from corporate HQ!]

David Oldfield

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27/12/13 – 09:46

And they wondered why passengers deserted public transport for cars, David! Nice town, Chesterfield.

Chris Hebbron

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27/12/13 – 09:55

Yes, very nice town.

David Oldfield

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28/12/13 – 08:03

When TBAT broke up in 1942, certain firms "switched" allegiance. [NBC and BLMC strong arm tactics were nothing new.] Cumberland, United and Lincolnshire were Leyland operators. North Western was a Bristol operator and went from Tilling to BET. It was natural for North Western to take to Bristols with alacrity when they became available in 1965. I do not know the provenance of East Midland, but pre-war they were a Bristol operator and so their renewed allegiance to Bristol should not have come as a surprise. [Their roots were in the local independent, Underwood.] The big surprise – to Leyland Motor Corporation as well – was how readily Ribble and Southdown both took to Bristols. In all the above cases, it was both the RELL and the RELH which were the major swing factors.

David Oldfield

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28/12/13 – 10:57

Having re-read my last post, it occurred to me that the bulk of RE buses operated by North Western, Ribble and Southdown were actually RESL – both RESL6G and RESL6L.

David Oldfield

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28/12/13 – 13:49

I agree with earlier comments regarding the tasteful shade of red used in this era of East Midland operation. I never did like the corporate NBC colours, especially that awful green, and can only guess how good these would have looked in the EM chocolate, cream and biscuit livery! I spent some time in the old county of Huntingdonshire and frequently travelled between Huntingdon and Saint Ives on United Counties. Often my carriage would be TBD 280G, a dual-purpose RELH6G, new in 1969. This was a most comfortable bus to ride and was in the much better reversed livery of cream and green. Happy days.

Les Dickinson

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28/12/13 – 14:44

Here we go again on the subject of livery, who did have the best? Personal taste and where you grew up would have the most influence on your answer. United’s reverse DP livery looked good on most of the single deck fleet, but, although I cant remember any being done this way, I don’t think it would have transferred to double deckers. OK Motor services always looked smart, but probably too time consuming to be practical for a large fleet? For smart plain and simple, you would go a long way to find better examples than Sheffield or Darlington, Midland Red, on the other hand, was in most cases too plain and simple, but few would argue that the all one colour of Glenton was drab or ugly. Bright colours or subdued? The orange and yellow of Yelloway was bright and cheerful, but the black, white and grey of Woods of Blackpool ’Seagull Coaches’ or the olive green and cream coaches of United were to my mind a classic. Its a question without answer, but it produces some good comments.

Ronnie Hoye

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29/12/13 – 14:54

Right now? I’d give anything to go back to the days of NBC/PTE corporate liveries – there was more variety about then than there is now . . . and at least tickets weren’t standardised under NBC. I’ve just finished under-coating the cloak-room wainscot/door, in preparation for a deep blue gloss, and I’ve been struck by the similarity in colour/finish between my undercoat and First’s new livery – OK, I’ll give First a couple of weeks before their colours dull to a matt-like finish. And we don’t even have "proper" local fleet-names anymore, and many of the local-authority operators have disappeared. Anyway, back to the picture . . . wasn’t EMMS red a shade called "BET red", and common with other companies(?) in the group?

Philip Rushworth

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29/12/13 – 17:47

I don’t think that there was a ‘BET’ shade of red. East Midland used a deeper, more maroon shade than nearby Trent, PMT and North Western all of whom seemed to use a slightly different shade of brighter red.

Ian Wild

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30/12/13 – 07:10

EMMS red was closer to Ribble than any other BET red. It was stated emphatically that neither was maroon. As Ian says, none of the other three were an identical shade of red. That was the beauty of BET liveries – and of course SUT was unique. In fact the whole set up was unique – and certainly pretty special – since SUT was equally owned by EMMS, Tracky and NWRCC but neither followed the vehicle purchasing nor the operating practises of any of its owners.

David Oldfield

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30/12/13 – 11:50

W. T. Underwood was far from being a local independent operator. It was an offshoot of United Automobile Services of Lowestoft. The manager of U.A.S. Mr. E. B. Hutchinson sent one of his ‘bright young men’ W. T. Underwood to Clowne in North Derbyshire in 1920 to establish bus services in the area.
The vehicles were supplied from Lowestoft in the United livery of that time of chrome yellow and brown, later separated with a cream band. The United fleet name was covered over with a board bearing the name of Underwood in the same style.
In 1927 the company was re-named East Midland Motor Services Limited. At this time W. T. Underwood left the company to pursue other interests.
Although United A. S. changed their livery to red around 1930, East Midland retained the old yellow brown and cream livery until 1955. East Midland were under Tilling Group Control until 1942 when control passed to B. E. T.

John Bunting

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02/01/14 – 17:29

I wasn’t surprised at BET companies buying Bristol REs as soon as they were available, simply because by that time all the alternative rear-engined single deckers already had questionable reputations, whereas the RE had been giving trouble-free service to Tilling Group operators since before any of them was invented. Unfortunately I wasn’t so keen on RE buses as many enthusiasts, as I’ve never thought much of the interior finish of ECW bus bodies, and I was never in the right place at the right time to sample anything else. Not having to operate or drive them, I much preferred the Leyland Panther.
Coaches of course were a different matter.

Peter Williamson

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03/01/14 – 07:59

But Peter, you can’t blame Bristol for the ECW body! Even under common National ownership they were never the same company.

David Oldfield

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06/01/14 – 07:57

Although having a big soft spot for the late lamented RE in general, my favourites to ride on were always the Series I, and early Series II models with the shallower windscreen. The RE was designed from the outset with air suspension, which gave a very smooth ride. However, the system did have a few problems relating to short airbag life, especially on stage carriage vehicles, and as a result many operators converted their airbags to coil springs. This fairly straightforward conversion still endowed the RE with a nice ride, but around 1969/70 Bristol’s new masters Leyland decided that the air/coil suspension system would become an optional extra, and that the standard RE would now have traditional leaf springs. Although it could be argued that this simplified the design from an engineering point of view, the result was a rougher-riding RE, which now rattled and banged over uneven road surfaces. This backward step was also said to be the cause of problems relating to increased vibration, movement and cracking around the drop-frame at the front of the chassis. On the ECW bus bodies this led to front domes cracking or working loose, and problems with the flooring and step at the front entrance. The newly introduced BET windscreens also seemed more prone to cracking – surely not a coincidence, as the BET Group had been using the screens successfully for years. Despite these shortcomings, the RE still remained a dependable ‘engineers bus’ to the end, with major units logically laid out for ease of maintenance, repair or removal. There were plans for a Series III RE, which would probably have had improved ‘second generation’ air suspension, and options of more powerful engines. However, as we all know, Leyland had other ideas, and scrapped the RE to give its new integral National a clear field.

Brendan Smith

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09/11/14 – 17:01

During the 70s I drove for Royal Blue based at Victoria coach station London. I have fond memories of my time there and in particular driving Bristol REs ECW bodied. I preferred the manual gearbox which could be hard work at times especially on the long routes London to Plymouth or Penzance, the semi automatics did reduce the work load but I felt that I had more control with the manual. I dove most of the routes over the West country and into Dorset, I recall lining up for the tight turn into the down ramp which was Bournemouth coach station. In the later years Leyland joined the fleet with Plaxton bodies but I still preferred the REs in my opinion the finest coach ever to be built. I still think back and recall all my colleagues and I still have copies of the timetable and drivers handbook with route directions which I cherish with much love.

Ernest Goldie

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12/01/15 – 07:05

EMMS red was ‘BET Dark Red’ and was the same shade as City of Oxford MS, Northern General and Yorkshire Woollen District. Due to differing paint suppliers the actual shade could vary slightly, even on buses within the same fleet.
Trent, Yorkshire Traction, North Western all used ‘BET Light Red’, again for the above reasons the actual shade could vary slightly.
Midland Red and Ribble both had individual colours not within the BET colour catalogue and referred to by the company name, ie, ‘Ribble Red’.

Rob F

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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09/04/15 – 07:02

If you look at the livery style of East Midland Bristol VR’s that were delivered at the same time you will notice it looks more a Mansfield District style only in red. A company they were about to take over under NBC. Even after privatisation they stayed green.

John Allcock