Copyright Stephen Howarth

Oldham Corporation
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/30
Roe H37/28R

I have been having a rummage through a few pictures and came across this one. Whilst it is not the best photograph in the world, I am sure it is of historical interest.
The vehicle on the right is one of Oldham Corporations 1958 ‘Tin front’ Titans fleet number 443, it was transferred to SELNEC on November 1969, and re-numbered 5343 in that fleet. In this photograph it is still in the Crimson and White lined out livery, which Oldham used until 1966, when replaced with Pommard and Devon Cream. It is photographed in Lever Street Manchester, (destination blinds showed Stephenson Square), operating the service 13 to Uppermill via Oldham and Scouthead. This service was a Limited Stop service operated jointly with Manchester Corporation Transport.
What is interesting with the photograph is that I caught a Maynes of Manchester AEC Regent operating on their service between Droylsden and Manchester Dale Street. Unfortunately the speed of the bus has made the registration unreadable, and there is no record on the rear of the photograph. But it looks like one of their AEC Regent V, with Park Royal H41/32R bodies.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

———

06/11/11 – 12:25

Aah, my favourite vehicle from my favourite batch of Oldham’s buses. These PD2s were superb inside and out, but sadly got more and more disfigured over the years with moquette seats replaced by vinyl ones and the original elaborately lined-out livery changing first to an unlined version, then pommard and cream and finally, for some, SELNEC’s orange and white.
443 escaped some of these treatments. As the batch were being worked through for re-certification when twelve years old the policy was changed so the earlier examples received orange and a five year ticket. 443 was done later and only got three years in total. To cut down on costs it wasn’t fully repainted but tidied up in pommard. This work was done at Stockport and as a consequence the original interior survived largely intact.
It survived a bit longer as it was used as a skid pan bus at Hyde Road for a while after withdrawal. I have a photo of it there carrying the grille (and therefore registration) off 442 – very confusing!
The Mayne’s bus will be on the Audenshaw to Dale Street service – the Droylsden service was numbered 46 and more significantly, ran to Stevenson Square, although both traversed this section of Lever Street. It can be identified as 6974 ND, a 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA with Park Royal H41/32R body of a particularly ugly design.
The photograph will have been taken just before quarter past the even hour, as that is when Oldham’s bus on the 13 left, the other bus after the odd hour being a Manchester one. North Western worked the opposite way round to Uppermill via Lees on the 14, then returning via Scouthead to Manchester as a 13.

David Beilby

———

06/11/11 – 17:03

A close colleague of the (A) Mayne’s bus is already on this site at this link. Doesn’t it look like a Bridgemaster – & the height is not all perspective, has it – no dome?

Joe

———

07/11/11 – 07:39

It’s exactly the same as the second Bridgemaster body – except, obviously, for the height. If you mean does it have a flat roof profile, the answer is yes.

David Oldfield

———

07/11/11 – 07:40

As David B said, the Park Royal bodies on that batch of Maynes Regent Vs were particularly ugly, and they were the last ones bought before Maynes switched to East Lancs. As an enthusiast I have always liked to think there is a connection between those two facts, but I have no evidence for this.

Peter Williamson

———

07/11/11 – 12:11

Well the East Lancs bodies were a distinct improvement aesthetically – but were they East Lancs or Neepsend?

David Oldfield

———

08/11/11 – 06:40

I agree with David Beilby, these Oldham PD2’s always exuded an air of quality with their comfortable interiors and lined out livery. I rode on them regularly on the 9 (Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton) and 24/90 (Rochdale- Manchester) routes. On the 90 Limited Stop service which ran non-stop from Royton into Manchester they could turn in a fair pace along Broadway if they got the many sets of traffic lights in their favour.
Regarding the ugly Park Royal bodies on the Maynes AEC, I did once read somewhere that Southampton turned away from Park Royal and moved to East Lancs after being very unimpressed with the abominations Park Royal inflicted on them on both Leyland PD2 and AEC Regent V chassis using the Bridgemaster derived design. I don’t know if this was true or even if operators cared about the appearance of their buses from a design point of view. Perhaps some did.

Philip Halstead

———

08/11/11 – 10:45

Well Philip, they certainly forsook the same PRV abominations for East Lancs/Neepsend – whatever the reason. [Swindon, Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Wooken also had versions – the latter two by Roe – not to mention the first ACV Atlanteans, again built by Roe.]

David Oldfield

———

10/11/11 – 07:37

Similar very ugly Park Royal bodies were bought on a batch of PD2s by Southampton. These seemed incredibly top heavy due to their short length.

Chris Hough

———

10/11/11 – 07:38

I am sure that the Southampton story is true. Possibly not all, but certainly many municipal General Managers had definite ideas about the standards of vehicle design and appearance. Inevitably, the name of Geoff Hilditch springs to mind, but he was by no means alone in holding such views, and the municipal GMs held regular get togethers at which opinions were frankly exchanged. I have some Southampton pictures that I will submit in due course.

Roger Cox

———

10/11/11 – 07:39

To answer David’s question, Maynes had two Regent Vs bodied by East Lancs in 1964 and three by Neepsend in 1965.

Peter Williamson

———

10/11/11 – 17:02

Thanks, Peter

David Oldfield

———

20/12/11 – 06:40

I too agree with David Beilby’s comments about the Leyland/Roe Titans 429-452. I remember riding on them to and from college/Oldham Music Centre, on the 9 (409) bus route (437,443 and 449) in the mid 1960’s when they still carried their original livery. Around 1964/5 I recollect seeing a few examples on our route (B, Fitton Hill-Middleton Junction), and off their usual routes. It was the elaborate lined livery which caught my eye, as the usual buses on this route were unlined by that time or indeed like Leylands 388-407 and 413-418 (NBU 488-507 and NBU 513-518), never had been. I used to take notes of the bus numbers over a period of twelve months in 1964/5. I rode on 432,433,438,446,447,448,451 and 452 – to and from school in Fitton Hill. Since they were used primarily on the trunk routes I couldn’t understand why; even so, with their increased seating capacity of 65 they were a welcome sight. By this time they were looking tired (435,440 and 452 particularly so) and before long a simplified livery was applied-what a disappointment!
By mid July 1966 they were introduced to our route in number, having been cascaded from the trunk routes when the Leyland Atlantean invasion gained ground.

D. Butterworth

Copyright Andrew Critchlow

Thomas Burrows & Sons
1956
AEC Regent V MD3RV 
Roe L27/26RD

Thought this (the only pic I ever took of a Burrows bus) might be of interest. Fleet No.89 registration PWY 943 an AEC Regent V with Roe L27/26RD body, new in 1956 and Burrows’ last new decker. The picture was taken on the occasion of a PSV Circle tour from Manchester in 1965. Our transport, a North Western Bristol K5G can be seen at the far left, cooling down after its climb over the Pennines. We had to form a bucket chain at one point to extinguish the smouldering cab floorboards but did manage to overtake a Bedford coach as well!
Operators visited on this tour included Phillipson’s of Goldthorpe (lots of Royal Tigers), Mexborough and Swinton and Rotherham Corporation.
Happy Days!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Critchlow

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

———

02/10/11 – 10:26

Was your K5G the North Western one on the Halifax Parade?

Joe

———

04/10/11 – 14:22

Yes Joe it was the same bus as the Halifax Parade, fleet no.432

Andrew Critchlow

———

04/10/11 – 20:53

Whilst I remember the North Western K5G’s in service my memories of riding them date from the preservation era. Boy were they rough riders! Sitting on top deck at the front your nether regions got every vibration from the engine and gearbox. It’s a tribute to those Willowbrook bodies that they lasted so well under those conditions. I bet the original bodies didn’t need much removing – they probably self-destructed.
Looking at the ‘Halifax Parade’ link was very enjoyable. I think I was there. The shots of the service buses in the background reminded me what a superb livery Halifax had. It even managed to make the ‘Orion’ body design look passably attractive!
Happy days indeed!

Philip Halstead

———

06/08/12 – 07:25

In 1967 this bus was with Richards Bros, Moylegrove.

Les Dickinson

Copyright Roger Cox

Pennine Motor Services
1963
Leyland Leopard L2
Roe B49F

In the 1970s, when I was a manager at London Country, to keep my hand in I used to undertake weekend driving jobs for independent operators. One of these was Tillingbourne, then owned by Trevor Brown, who also dealt in second hand buses and coaches. As well as driving buses on normal service, I would undertake collections and deliveries of vehicles to/from his dealer’s stock. One such trip was the collection of 240 CWY, a Leyland Leopard L2 with Roe B49F body from Pennine of Gargrave (aka Simpson of Gargrave) in August 1975. The picture was taken during a stop "somewhere in England" en route between Yorkshire and Gomshall, Surrey. This Leopard was an early example dating from May 1963, and the Leylands of that vintage always had heavy controls, but I found this Leopard rather nicer to drive than the Halifax examples with very stiff gear change linkage that I had experienced some ten years earlier. 240 CWY served in the Tillingbourne fleet for two years before being sold in October 1977, reputedly to Berresford of Cheddleton, though I cannot find any record of it being run by that operator.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

15/09/11 – 09:25

What an attractive machine this was, and made even more so by Pennine’s stunning livery. I once rode on this vehicle all the way from Skipton (where I’d arrived from Manchester on a Ribble "White Lady" Atlantean) to Lancaster. One of the great bus rides of the day, but sadly no longer available. The last Pennine bus I travelled on was last October between Skipton and Nelson where I connected with a Transdev ‘decker to Manchester. Still a double-deck coach on the Manchester service (although no longer running through to Skipton), still the same lovely Pennine colour scheme, but the Pennine vehicle was a Dennis Dart. Profoundly not the same as the vehicle above!

Neville Mercer

16/09/11 – 09:28

Neville I believe they have a 100% Dart fleet at the moment. I went for a trip on one of them to Burnley and back a few weeks ago. Nice to see them soldiering on, despite competition from Transdev, perhaps 3 journeys per hour from Skipton to Burnley aren’t really needed!

Dave Towers

16/10/11 – 06:42

240 CWY did reach Berresfords at Cheddleton by very early 1978. It was never operated by them but parked up at the back of the garage where it remained basically complete until the site was cleared in the Summer of 1987.

Tim Machin

17/10/11 – 07:39

Their wonderful livery is still well-suited to their Dennis Darts, I’m glad to say. See this link //busestractionengines.blogspot.com/2011/09/pennine-motor-services.html

Chris Hebbron

07/03/12 – 08:36

Hello Roger
Is it possible that the Halifax examples were quite a bit newer when you drove them and would therefore not be as worn? – on saying that I drove PJX 232 which was a ‘B’ fleet vehicle and was allocated to ‘out of town routes’ and the gears were quite easy to select. driving PJX 35 from the ‘A’ fleet was quite different – the gear selection was some what stiffer.

Richard McAllister

17/04/12 – 14:06

240 CWY had a cousin in the fleet, LWU 499D.
I have vague (and only vague) recollection that what is generally known as Simpsons had members of the Windle family on the operating discs in the 60’s. At what point, does anyone, know, did the Simpsons become involved, and are they related to the Windles?

Pete Davies

25/06/12 – 09:00

I enquired above if anyone knew if there was indeed a link between the Simpsons and the Windles, and what that relationship was. I have now managed to obtain a copy of the history of Pennine, published in 2000, which indicates they were in-laws.
Peter has views of MTC 757 and MTD 235 coming in a few weeks, when he’s worked his way through the pile of contributions from others.
Happy viewing!

Pete Davies

25/06/12 – 17:09

Am I alone in seeing a resemblance between the front end of this vehicle and that of the Aldershot & District coaches (bodied by Roe’s sister company Park Royal) which used to operate their London services? Could it be that it was assembled from Park Royal components and "badged" as Roe so as not to offend the sensibilities of good Yorkshire folk? The only other "Roe" examples of this styling that spring to mind are the service buses produced for Leeds. Any former Roe employees from the 1960s out there?

Neville Mercer

26/06/12 – 06:39

Neville, no you’re not alone but it’s hardly surprising since Roe built Park Royal designs on Park Royal frames almost from their take-over. Lincoln had Tiger Cubs which could easily have been PRV/Monocoaches at sight. Until 1968 Roe built all composite bodies to their classic design but also helped Park Royal, out when there were capacity problems, by building their metal framed designs. Don’t think we’re actually that sensitive in Yorkshire. Sheffield had lots of Park Royals from 1963 to the PTE take-over in 1974 and the 1963/4 Regent Vs were almost identical and contemporaneous with the Tracky PD3As of 1965.

David Oldfield

26/06/12 – 06:39

Hasn’t it got the traditional Roe raised waistrail? and wouldn’t that indicate composite construction? Whereas, I’m assuming, the A&D/EKRCC/Birch coaches built by Park Royal would have been of BET-standard steel-framed construction. That aside, the window length was longer, the rear window a curved two-piece structure, and the rear roof dome a different shape. There is some resemblance around the front windscreen though – perhaps Roe did take some inspiration in certain ways, although I’ve just realised that this style of Roe body probably pre-dated the Park Royal (semi) coaches and that any influence might have been in the other direction . . . suitably updated and lengthened.

Philip Rushworth

26/06/12 – 06:40

If this //www.flickr.com/ is the body that Neville has in mind, I don’t think it’s the same one, though it does seem to have the same windscreen.

Peter Williamson

26/06/12 – 11:35

Yes Peter, that’s the one. It was the front-end part of the design I had in mind. Didn’t Great Yarmouth have something similar on Daimler Freelines in the early 60s? This raises another question – why were Gt Yarmouth buying Freelines so late in the production run and a decade after most other UK operators had given the design a distinct thumbs down?

Coming to David’s point, the reason I suggested the "badge engineering" part is that it certainly happened in Lancashire – I’m thinking of Darwen Corporation’s insistence on having AEC designs badged as "Crossleys". I would never disparage Yorkshire folk, despite the unfortunate events of 500 years ago. In my ideal version of reality Lancs and Yorks would combine to form a new Pennine nation. We are the salt of the earth!

Neville Mercer

26/06/12 – 14:13

I think the answer to your question can be summed up in one word – Hilditch.
Geoffrey Hilditch had firm ideas on what he wanted in a bus and since in those days Leyland had a rather ‘take it or leave it’ attitude, he would go elsewhere if he thought he could manipulate them into producing what he wanted.
So at Great Yarmouth, wanting trusty Gardner engines in his single deckers to match his double deckers, he got Daimler to revive the Freeline. At Halifax he had Dennis remodel the Loline to meet his needs – with disastrous consequences as it turned out – and then went to his old employer (briefly) from his home town and got them to design the Pennine RU (also a disaster). Later at Leicester, disenchanted with British Leyland and the Metropolitans, and really wanting a Fleetline replacement, persuaded Dennis to produce the Dominator.
The last Great Yarmouth Freelines had more of an Alexander type windscreen, similar to the ones Roe had used on their (and others’) Fleetlines, and on the later Doncaster Royal Tiger Cubs.

John Stringer

P.S. A new Pennine Nation eh ? Hmmm………maybe, but there would need to be an East Pennine and a West Pennine I feel.

26/06/12 – 17:50

Yes, but Yorkshire born and bred – and proud of it – I did my degree and first jobs on t’other side. I’d be easy with Pennine Nation. [We have divisions and had Ridings and even Sussex has an East and a West.] We have more in common than not.

David Oldfield

27/06/12 – 07:12

Thanks for that explanation John. I’d forgotten that "Gortonian" was GM at Gt Yarmouth. One of Britain’s truly memorable bus fleet managers unlike say Edgeley Cox of Walsall who I always thought was just plain barmy! On an even more flippant note, despite the Pennine/Skipton connection I would suggest that the capital of our new Pennine Nation should be in Todmorden – part of the town used to be in Lancashire after all.

Neville Mercer

27/06/12 – 07:12

Neville’s point about the resemblance between the Pennine Roe body and the Park Royal coaches of Aldershot and District may be seen in this view of A&D Reliance 478, 478 FCG, with C49F body delivered in 1963. These fifteen vehicles were of the 4MU4RA type with the AH470 7.685 litre engine coupled to a six speed constant mesh gearbox. It would appear that the windscreens are identical, but the waistrail level and driver’s side window are set at a lower level on the Park Royal. This picture was taken in Farnborough, where I then lived, in August 1969, by which time the magnificently florid traditional Aldershot and District fleetname had been replaced by the simpler style shown.

Roger Cox

27/06/12 – 13:36

I think the A & D coaches (and livery) looked better than the East Kent – good in itself – but I still prefer the 2U3RA, despite its troublesome AH590 engine.

David Oldfield

08/07/15 – 05:35

I drove 240 CWY when the vehicle passed to Tillingbourne Bus Company which sadly abruptly closed a few years ago. I would regularly drive part time driving for them based at Gomshall railway station where they operated local village services into Guildford. 240 CWY was heavy on the steering but a good bus to drive. I spent many a happy hour trundling in and out of Guildford to Peaslake and Farley Green making sure I got in front of the London Country MB’s running into Guildford in the 1970’s. I went on to have my bus company Leisurelink at Newhaven.

Clifford Jones

09/07/15 – 07:44

Attached is an image from my slide of 240 CWY in service with Tillingbourne leaving Gomshall for Peaslake and about to cross the level-crossing on the Guildford to Dorking line.
I recall that Tillingbourne acquired 4 vehicles from Pennine, a second Leopard LWU 499D and a pair of Tiger Cubs 6108 WU and 9712 WX. Nearby Tony McCann of Forest Green also acquired a Tiger Cub UWX 277 which ran in Pennine colours for some time.
Happy days.

Keith Newton

10/07/15 – 06:53

I collected one of those Duple Donington (often misspelt – only three ‘n’s in the word) DP41F Tiger Cubs PSUC1/2 from Gargrave, Keith, and also drove them all (another PSUC1/2 Donington came from Thomas, West Ewell) in Tillingbourne service. The Tiger Cub was quite a nice machine to drive, certainly superior to the early Halifax Leopards, and the Donington was one of Duple’s better bodies in my opinion. I have a picture of one in Tillingbourne livery somewhere. I must seek it out. The Guildford – Dorking – Redhill railway line is a delight, following as it does the foot of the North Downs all the way. For seven years I used it to get to work between North Camp and Reigate – BRCW Type 3 loco hauled in the morning, and Tadpole demu unit back home in the afternoon. Happy days indeed.

Roger Cox

11/07/15 – 07:19

I worked outside Guildford station in 1961/62 and reczll the extensive steam depot there, unusual in an otherwise electrified area. Around 1980, I took a Tadpole from Guildford to Ashford, along a disturbingly straight track! The ‘Tadpoles’ coaches never matched, being cobbled together from narrow straight-sided Hastings stock and surplus rounded Tyneside stock. Some of the Type 3’s were narrow, too, to squeeze through the Hastings tunnels!
Will look forward to seeing the photo, Roger, if you can find it!

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

09/08/15 – 14:05

I can now attach an image of UWX 277 in Horsham Sussex with Tony McCann. Behind is the former Western National SUL with Tillingbourne. Not a good advert for independent operators in those days!!!. Apologies for the poor photo but there were problems at the time with film and the slide has faded. There is a better – black and White photo [not mine] – in Laurie James’s book on Horsham’s Independent Bus Services and apparently UWX 277 was nicknamed the Orange Box.

Keith Newton