Newcastle Corporation
1957
AEC Regent V MD3RV
Park Royal L30/28R

In 1956 Newcastle took delivery of 20 AEC Regent V’s with Park Royal H34/28R bodies, they were XVK 137 to XVK 156 and were numbered 137/156. The following year another 20 arrived, registered 157 AVK – 176 AVK and numbered 157/176 – 167/176 were the same as the previous batch, but 157/166 were L30/28R low bridge variants specifically bought for the service 5 to Darras Hall and Ponteland via the Airport, but they did venture onto other routes on occasion. I think some of the high bridge vehicles went to OK Motor Services at Bishop Auckland but I do not know if any of the low bridge type were sold on. I’m not a lover of ‘tin fronts’ and much prefer the exposed radiator type, but the AEC versions seem to be a bit less brutal in appearance than some others. The Regent III standing next to 158 is from the same batch as NVK 341 which has been beautifully restored and is now part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

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28/05/12 – 08:17

Aah, now I’m feeling all nostalgic! A wonderful photo of two of my all-time favourite classes of Newcastle bus in Morden Street. The Regent V is, of course, the answer to Dave Lazzari’s recent query in the Q&As section. I liked the highbridge version too but I have happy memories of the lowbridge ones on trips out to the airport on service 5 – happy days! The Regent III has to be the ultimate Newcastle Corporation bus, absolutely stunning! I have vivid memories of travelling on them on the Spital Tongues Circle [service 8] and the 1s and 2s. In those days large numbers of buses and trolleybuses were parked in Morden Street mainly between the peaks.

Alan Hall

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29/05/12 – 17:20

I agree the AEC Regent V tin front was the best looking of the lot. It always gave me the impression of a big smiling face. (Been reading too much Thomas the Tank Engine!). The Park Royal body of this era was beautifully well proportioned and blended with the AEC front so well. A total contrast to the later incarnations using Bridgemaster parts which were the absolute pits! (eg Southampton’s examples).

Philip Halstead

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30/05/12 – 17:41

Phillip H, you’re being unnecessarily generous by describing the version Southampton had, as the absolute pits. I’ve always regarded them as shoe boxes with holes cut in. It didn’t matter whether the apparition was on a Regent V or on a PD2A, the effect on my eyes was the same.
The Newcastle one illustrated above looks – to me – more like the East Lancs body which Southampton had on most of its Regents, or the standard for the RT. FAR more pleasing to the eye.

Pete Davies

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31/05/12 – 08:08

As I’ve said before, just about the ugliest body ever built – based on the front-entrance Bridgemaster and the Atlantean design, or lack of it! The highbridge version of the posted design was one of the best ever – also produced by Roe and Crossley. Obviously the RT and RM bodies were classics, but after that the ACV group lost the plot. Only with the AN68 era body did they regain it.

David Oldfield

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31/05/12 – 20:24

Except for a few examples of absolute boxes on wheels built on Park Royal frames Roe built their superb traditionally styled bodywork on front engined chassis until the demise of these as an option. The thirty foot Daimlers and AEC Regents bought by Leeds in the sixties were true examples of the coach builders art Whereas the front entrance bodies on a small batch of rebodied Tiger chassis owned by Yorkshire Traction were perhaps the very nadir of the Roe out put.

Chris Hough

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01/06/12 – 07:07

I particularly like this combination of AEC and Park Royal. It’s a very well balanced and good looking vehicle. I can think of Western Welsh and Maidstone and District who took them as well and one or two independents also. Does anyone know of any more?

Chris Barker

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01/06/12 – 07:09

The traditional composite Roe body, derived from the original Pullmans, has never been bettered. The last were Daimler CVG6s for Northampton in 1968. The Park Royal framed bodies were as a result of Park Royal needing extra capacity as a result of "too much" work – almost certainly the build of Routemasters from 1962 to 1968.
It was, indeed, a small batch of Tiger rebuilds which had the same appalling body as that at Southampton and Swindon. The 1965 Tracky PD3s had a quite pleasant Roe version of the Park Royal body on a number of Sheffield Regent Vs. These looked a little better than the bodies on East Kent Regent Vs and the front engine Bridgemasters.

David Oldfield

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01/06/12 – 10:05

Further to Chris Barker’s comment, the thirty-foot version of this body looked particularly fine. The first pair – exhibited at the 1956 Commercial Motor Show – were for Cottrell’s of Mitcheldean, and a convertible open-topper for Western Welsh. A further batch were supplied to City of Oxford, after which Park Royal switched to the MCW ‘Orion’-inspired box.
I must say though, that despite their well balanced good looks, these bodies were of fairly lightweight aluminium alloy construction and were disappointingly hard riding and bouncy both on Mk. V and PD2 chassis in my experience.

John Stringer

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01/06/12 – 15:57

John S..I must confess to no longer being a regular bus user but this week rode on a "58" plate Volvo/Wright double decker and was astonished at how appalling the ride was. Taking a top deck front seat meant I enjoyed a narrow staircase that I nearly fell backwards down because the driver set off with the usual foot to the floor take off then suffered a mix of rolling, swaying and undamped vertical bouncing on the cramped seat. Has the bus industry absolutely no idea whatever about how suspension works? Do they know nothing about adapting spring rates to the vehicle weight, correct damping control, anti roll bars, progressive spring/damper settings to allow a calm ride both when empty or fully loaded? This has been the daily work of the motor industry for decades and is not "magic". Do any PCV builders ever drive a car..ever wonder how to provide a safe and comfortable ride or is it just an industry of dinosaurs who get a batch of lorry chassis parts, bolt them together on a cheap frame and nail a poor quality body on top hoping it will all come out alright? I apologise for being off thread saying this but John’s experience of Mk.V and PD2 chassis reflected exactly mine..just 55 years later!

Richard Leaman

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01/06/12 – 20:41

I recall Maidstone & District’s Park Royal bodied Regent V’s on the 15 route from Hastings to Eastbourne which as John Stringer says were lightweight in build which made the ride quite lively and the performance very brisk. The beautiful balance of the body dimensions combined with the AEC bonnet design, which I always admired, made this combination one of my favourites the fact that they followed M&D’s batch of ugly Orion bodied PD2’s meant they were doubly appreciated. The AV 470 engine fitted to M&D’s had a very rorty exhaust note especially in a confined street which if the revs were taken to the limit made a waffling sound as the governor cut in.
Richard Leaman’s about the ride and lack of comfort of modern vehicles hit one or two sore spots with me as at 6ft 1in tall space is to say the least limited.

Diesel Dave

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02/06/12 – 11:51

Four of those Maidstone & District Mk. V’s were surprise temporary additions to the Calderdale J.O.C. fleet in 1972, two highbridge ones operating in Halifax and two lowbridge ones at Todmorden.
By the time I started at Halifax the following year three had already gone, but the last one 362 (VKR 479) was still soldiering on – still in faded M&D livery – but unfortunately was withdrawn just before I passed my PSV.
The AV470 engines left them seriously underpowered for climbing our local mountains, and they were not popular with the drivers – most of whom were not very keen on our own AV590 ones to start with.
Conductors disliked them because of their platform doors, which I believe were not driver-operated probably on safety grounds, and which they had to open and close themselves. Of course according to the rule book it should have been no hardship, because they should have been in attendance on the platform whilst passengers boarded and alighted anyway, but, you know……..! They did make nice exhaust sounds though.
Hebble had four similarly powered short Mk. V’s with Northern Counties bodies new in 1962 which had also really struggled up the same hills and had seemed an ill-advised choice, though they could ‘crack on’ once they got out of Halifax on flatter roads such as on the route to Leeds, but I imagine the M&D ones may have also been higher geared so would have been quite breathless.

John Stringer

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02/06/12 – 11:52

Interesting comments from both Diesel Dave and John S on the riding qualities of the Orion and later Park Royal bodies. The M&D Regent Vs were an odd choice – a mere 22 of them, (14 highbridge and 8 lowbridge), sandwiched between 70-odd PD2s and the Atlanteans, which Dave will have come across early in their lives, as they were first introduced at Hastings. The company never bought any other AEC double deckers or Park Royal double deck bodies. Maybe they were influenced by neighbours East Kent? Because the Regent Vs were rare, I cannot comment personally on their riding qualities, my experience of them being limited to a couple of hours driving one, from which I can certainly confirm Dave’s memories of the rorty exhaust note.
On the other hand, the Orion bodies on M&D’s Guy Arab IVs rode very satisfactorily, in my view. Could that have been because of the Guy chassis, or simply the terrain of the Medway towns where they operated? (unlikely, I should have thought). Also, although Dave describes the Orion bodied PD2s as ‘ugly’, I always thought the Arab IVs looked businesslike and smart; perhaps that’s because they were essentially urban vehicles. (There’s a posting of one on this site). It wouldn’t do for all of us to agree on everything, any way, would it?

Roy Burke

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03/06/12 – 07:06

Mention of the Maidstone and District Regent Vs reminds me that they had notices in both saloons explaining that the buses were a temporary measure pending the delivery of new buses.

Philip Carlton

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03/06/12 – 07:07

Gosh, John, I had no idea that M&D’s Regents found a second life with Calderdale J.O.C. 362 is presumably Calderdale’s number; at M&D, it was DH479. All four of the AECs that went to Calderdale would have been close to the end of their COFs, dating originally from 1956, (and being re-certified for 5 years from 1968), which will be the reason, no doubt, why they didn’t stay long.
Conductor-operated rear doors were pretty much the norm in those days, I think, with provincial operators; the usual practice was for them to be left open in urban areas; conductors busy taking fares – especially upstairs – just wouldn’t have been able to keep opening and closing them at every bus stop. It’s a practice that every Tilling conductor, for example, would have known very well with Bristol Ks and Lodekkas. The draught-saving value of doors over open platforms was primarily felt on those parts of a journey that had longer intervals between stops.

Roy Burke

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03/06/12 – 11:14

Roy, the M&D Mk. V’s that came to Calderdale J.O.C. were highbridge 361/362 (VKR 472/479) and lowbridge 363/364 (VKR 36/37), the last two looking very similar to the Newcastle one on the photo. They were acquired in January 1972, 361/3/4 being sold in June the same year, but 362 lasting until early 1973.
The lowbridge pair went to Todmorden, whose depot could only accommodate lowbridge buses, and though as AEC’s they stuck out like a sore thumb in this previously Leyland-dominated town, and the growly exhausts rattled a few windows, the M&D livery looked reasonably at home, being not unlike the former T.J.O.C. colours.
362 even went for further service with Ede (Roselyn Coaches) of Par in Cornwall before travelling all the way back up north to be scrapped by a Barnsley breaker in 1979.
364 was acquired for preservation but was scrapped in 1976.
The Geoffrey Hilditch era at Halifax ensured that both local enthusiasts and employees were always kept entertained !

John Stringer

P.S.
When I say ‘both local enthusiasts’ I don’t mean there were only two of us !

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03/06/12 – 19:38

"Both local enthusiasts"! As you say, John, there were decidedly more than that, and, unlike many other senior figures in the bus industry (then and now), and to his everlasting credit, GGH didn’t regard bus enthusiasm as some kind of severe, untreatable mental aberration. He was always receptive to those who shared a genuine and constructive interest in buses.

Roger Cox

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04/06/12 – 07:52

The Maidstone & District Mk V’s weren’t the only ones to migrate north. Western Welsh LKG 661 operated for Ideal Service (H. Wray) of Barnsley after disposal by WW, although I imagine Ideal acquired it from one of the Barnsley dealers. I travelled on it once and I wonder if anyone knows what engines the Welsh ones had?

Chris Barker

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04/06/12 – 17:19

Thank you, John, for the extra information on the ex-M&D Regents. However, I’m left a little bewildered by the fate of 364, (VKR 37, M&D DL37). Regular correspondent Chris Youhill recalls driving a preserved lowbridge Regent many years after 1976, and from memory, I was sure it was DL37. Is it possible this vehicle did actually make it and was not scrapped after all? If not, which of the 8 lowbridge Regents was preserved? I believe one of the highbridge Regents has been preserved, too, but I don’t know which one.
Your comments, and those of Roger, about the accommodating attitude of Mr Hilditch towards enthusiasts rang a mildly ironic note with me. At M&D, it was emphasised to me that the vehicles were the company’s rolling assets, and that my feelings towards any of them should be based purely on operational criteria. Hence my acquired respect for 6LW engined Guy Arabs, which had the best record of any of M&D’s very varied fleet, and the reservations I developed towards their Atlanteans.
I can’t help, Chris, with information on the engines fitted to Western Welsh’s Regent Vs, but no doubt someone more knowledgeable than I will be able to give the answer. I do remember, however, a lot of them had a shallow concave dent in the rear, caused by them bottoming out on the swichback roads of Carmarthenshire.

Roy Burke

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06/06/12 – 07:42

It’s unusual that Maidstone and District, Newcastle and Western Welsh all bought both highbridge and lowbridge versions of this same combination.
Regarding the engines on the Western Welsh examples, I thought the picture was not straightforward and I was correct. The lowbridge variants were on D3RV chassis and had AV590 engines, whilst the highbridge ones were MD3RV chassis with AV470 engines. Some of them lasted from 1956 to 1972 which was a long time by Western Welsh standards.
678 was one of the last and ended up in France, from where it was recovered for preservation a few years ago. It is now in the custody of the Cardiff Transport Preservation Group.
The most interesting disposal was of 671, which after a brief sojourn at Knowsley Safari Park moved to Armstrong, Westerhope and then passed to Tyneside PTE as their 81 in 1973, being withdrawn in 1974. I’ve not seen pictures of it but it would have looked a lot like Newcastle’s if it got repainted!

David Beilby

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06/06/12 – 09:44

David, if they were D3RV they had the A218 engine from the Regent III. The Series 2 chassis (e.g. 2D3RA) had the AV590 – the main point of the change to Series 2.
Originally the AV470 "medium weight" Regent V was meant to be the norm. Some operators, however, only wanted heavyweight and insisted on what became the D3RV version. The wet-liner AV590 was not ready, the A218 was available. [Many regret that the AV590 eventually was!]

David Oldfield

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11/06/12 – 08:34

David Oldfield is quite right that the A218 engine was far superior to the AV590 at least when fitted in the Regent V being quieter and smoother running I drove both types for Eastbourne Corporation in the 1960’s. Regarding my comments about the MCW Orion being ugly I think depends very much on the livery applied, I was recently looking at photos of Orion bodied PD2’s of Halifax fleet and finding myself admiring them in that wonderful green, orange and cream colour scheme, whilst liking M&D’s livery it didn’t seem to suit the Orion as well as it did the Park Royal or Leyland bodies that preceded them.

Diesel Dave

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14/06/12 – 18:14

A very handsome vehicle. I saw one at Theydon Bois running day Sept 2011.

Bill Hogan

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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08/09/12 – 07:21

Further to comments above, another operator of the 30-foot Park Royal body was A Mayne of Manchester www.flickr.com/ These were LD3RAs, so presumably had the A218 engine. Mayne re-ordered from Park Royal and got this: www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ Is it any wonder they then went to East Lancs?

Peter Williamson

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09/09/12 – 07:12

Further to my much earlier posting, here are two views of a rather nice Cottrell’s of Mitcheldean 30 footer.
www.flickr.com/photos/lenmidgham/5266671044/
www.flickr.com/photos/lenmidgham/5266061949/

John Stringer

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10/09/12 – 07:21

These vehicles pre-date my arrival in Gloucestershire and are interesting for that fact alone. Cottrell’s always needed ‘big boys’ for their services and the 30-footers fitted the bill. A much lamented operator. Thx, John.

Chris Hebbron

                Copyright Ronnie Hoye

The Northern General Transport Company
1964
AEC-Park Royal Routemaster
Park Royal H41/31F

Pictured at the Seaburn Bus Rally, this 1964 Routemaster has been beautifully restored to its original livery and is now part of the North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd collection; it was one of the second batch to be delivered. I know the two batches differed slightly, but I’m not sure if it was only that the first ones had rear wheel spats. Prior to the Routmasters, the last front engine half cabs to carry the Northern name were the 1958 PD3’s with Orion bodies ‘Sunderland District’s were rear door Burlingham bodies’ before the Routemasters arrived on the scene their were then three or possibly four batches of PDR1 Atlanteans with both MCW and Roe bodies. Northern ran a lot of longer routes alongside United, when they introduced the front entrance Bristol Lodekkas Northern decided it was time to replace the rear door Park Royal bodied PD2’s on these routes with a more modern vehicle, but rather than use Atlanteans they bought the Routemasters specifically for the purpose. I think reliability may have been a factor as the early Atlanteans were ‘A tad temperamental’ Northern specified the Leyland O600 engine and the same gearing as the Green Line RMC’s, as far as I’m aware they gave excellent service and reliability was never a problem. Our depot didn’t have any so I must be one of the few drivers at Percy Main to have driven one on service, I was on the number 1 which ran between Whitley Bay and Lobbly Hill Gateshead, my bus ‘an Atlantean’ broke down at Team Valley and a replacement was sent out from Bensham depot, it turned out to be a Routemaster. I only drove it for a couple of hours but found it a very nice vehicle to drive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

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13/05/12 – 08:41

…..and I spent many a happy hour driving AEC and Leyland engined ex LT RMs in Reading for Reading Mainline. I now have the occasional charge of a preserved green RML. Still nice to drive but unfortunately, like most RMLs, re-engined.

David Oldfield

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13/05/12 – 18:49

What make was/were the replacement engine(s) and did the conversion entail any gearbox/transmission changes, David? In the back of my mind, Iveco comes to mind.

Chris Hebbron

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14/05/12 – 07:43

There several experiments using Cummins C (Javelin 8.2), Scania (9.2), DAF (?) and IVECO (7) engines. DAF never got beyond the one experimental, the others went into "mass" production. I don’t know the numbers, nor how it was decided to allocate which engines to which (batches of) vehicles.
These vehicles tended to keep their AEC/LT (semi)automatic gear-change. The vehicle I regularly drive – and will be doing so next week in Slough – is a 1966 RML with IVECO engine with original gearbox which still operates in either semi or fully automatic modes.
From the cab it is very obviously a re-engine although, surprisingly, from the saloon it sounds more like a "proper" vehicle. I can only surmise that this is because it still has the original gearbox. It does not, however, have the performance of an AV590 or 0.600 – nor the real sound.
The last refurbishments, however, were also made to comply with "Euro…" regulations and have the Cummins B (5.9) engine and Allison fully automatic gearbox both found on the Dennis Dart. They are therefore cruelly, but aptly, known as "Dartmasters". The latter have also totally changed the character of the cab.

David Oldfield

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14/05/12 – 09:29

Thanks, David, for that interesting background information. It’s also interesting that the original engines performed better than their replacements. Maybe some of it is strapping the engines up with ‘save the world’ technology, understandable, but not conducive to performance or fuel consumption!

Chris Hebbron

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14/05/12 – 14:57

As a P.S. to my comments above. It’s all speculation, but given the reputation for build quality and reliability that the Routemaster built up with Northern, I think it’s safe to assume that if the RML had gone into production AEC would have loaned a couple to Northern for evaluation purposes, then who knows?

Ronnie Hoye

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14/05/12 – 18:30

Ronnie; do you mean RML or FRM? The Northerns were front entrance RMLs (or RMFs in London language). FRM1 was the rear-engined prototype which Leyland knocked on the head because it competed with its own new Atlantean.
There should have been three prototype FRMs – one of the other in Sheffield Transport colours. Alan Townsin said that both Yorkshire Traction and Northern General had already shown an interest in the new model "off the drawing board". Having tested it for "Bus and Coach" in August 1967 he concluded that "…..the general impression was of a vehicle which made everything previous seem out of date, in much the same way as the RT in its day."

David Oldfield

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14/05/12 – 18:46

It’s an age thing David, I did mean the RMF

Ronnie Hoye

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15/05/12 – 07:34

It’s an age thing for most of us who use this site! What day is it nurse?

David Oldfield

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15/05/12 – 07:36

I wish I’d been issued with fingers instead of thumbs, FRM, the one that Leyland couldn’t wait to kill off, in much the same way that they did with the Fleetline, as the Americans say ‘if you can’t beat them, buy them’

Ronnie Hoye

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15/05/12 – 07:38

Chris, can I just point out that David’s comment about the performance of replacement engines was specific to IVECO, which was the smallest of the units in the original experiment. I recently had a ride on an RM with a Scania engine and it went like a bat out of hell! It also made some nice traditional sounds which were entirely compatible with the RM’s transmission.
As regards FRM1, this still exists of course, and it is very special. I once had the pleasure of riding on it, and it felt like meeting the Queen!

Peter Williamson

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15/05/12 – 13:31

Very interesting comments, David, on the FRM. I never saw the ‘Bus and Coach’ article, (yes, I ought to have seen it!), and have never seen any pictures of the prototypes, but it sounds as if it had great potential. Leyland, as Ronnie points out, were eager to kill off anything that competed with a Leyland product. Operationally, the Fleetline was a far better bet than early Atlanteans, being more economical and less expensive to maintain, and it would have been a boon to the industry to have had an AEC alternative, too. Leyland’s arrogance, which manifested itself in many ways at that time, was a tragedy for the whole of the British motor industry.

Roy Burke

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15/05/12 – 18:00

There were other interesting possibilities which Leyland killed at birth. The only really decent and successful rear-engined single-decker was the Bristol RE. It eventually had the option of Leyland engines (which I approve of) but another option "on the books" which was neither promoted nor taken up was of the AH691 AEC engine. Ulsterbus (and all offshoots) had shown a great interest in the AEC option but were dissuaded by Leyland from taking it up – just as later, New Zealand were "persuaded" to take the Leyland 510.

David Oldfield

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16/05/12 – 07:47

In some ways fitting a Scania engine into a Routemaster is the supreme irony. The Routemaster started life with AEC, they in turn became part of British Leyland ‘not to be confused with Leyland Motors’ At the time of the ‘merger’ AEC had designs for a new vehicle, but BL in their wisdom or otherwise decided not to go ahead with it, all the plans ‘including those for a new engine’ were sold to Saab and the result was the 80 and 100 series and every vehicle since, so I suppose you could argue that by using an AEC designed Scania engine in a Routemaster the wheel has in effect turned full circle

Ronnie Hoye

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22/09/13 – 07:51

Regarding the allocation of re-engined Routemasters in London, the rough rule was by operating group: South London and London General got Iveco re-engines and everywhere else got Cummins. The reasoning was, the DMS buses also had Iveco engines at these garages.
I used to like the Routemasters on the 130 from Newcastle to Sunderland as a boy.

Mick

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22/09/13 – 14:35

When were the last of these vehicles withdrawn and what happened to them afterwards?

Chris Hebbron

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23/09/13 – 05:57

The answer to the first question is that Northern last used them in service on 16th December 1980. Someone else will have to answer the second bit!

Dave Towers

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25/09/13 – 18:18

I have a Classic Bus magazine from 1994. The article must have been about the late 1950s, when they were in the process of creating the Atlantean. In it were clear, side by side pictures of the two prototype Leyland’s running on a route for evaluation by a bus company. One had the engine in front of the front axle, with a front wheel drive. It made the steering very heavy & would tilt up without the conductor on the rear platform. During tests they always made sure they had a conductor on. The other type had the engine on the rear platform & a full front. There is also a rear view picture of a top secret third type, which from memory only got to the test track at night, but was later broken up & the parts used on a conventional layout. If anyone would like further information I will read it again for more accuracy. If anyone would like the magazine, you can have it, for postage costs only.

Andy Fisher

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26/09/13 – 06:30

I drove a Routemaster just once, at an LT Open Day – OK I paid a few circuits "on" so had a few laps. Compared to the PD3 on which I did my PSV training the Routemaster felt like a real driver’s bus – everything light to the touch and set up just right, although the horizontal gear-selection gate felt odd to start with. However, I’d take a PD2/3 over a Lodekka anytime – for me the Lodekka’s driving position, with that raked steering-wheel, was just uncomfortable/awful.

Philip Rushworth

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26/09/13 – 14:53

Philip, don’t forget that the horizontal gear-selection gate was probably specified to replicate the pre-selector used on the many thousands of RTs with which all LT drivers would have been familiar (to say nothing of the many municipalities who operated pre-selector Regents).

Stephen Ford

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26/09/13 – 14:53

The disposal details of all 50 Northern General Routemasters (2085-2134) are to be found at www.countrybus.org/RMF/RMFa.html  
This site, Ian’s Bus Stop, has full life histories for most London Tansport classes and closely related classes, e.g. London Country Leyland Nationals. Well worth a visit.

Dave Farrier

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28/09/13 – 16:14

Thx, Dave F.

Chris Hebbron

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01/10/13 – 06:30

Whilst on the subject of the Routemaster, has anyone seen a photo of the Chinese Youtong-built vehicle destined for Macedonia, designed with more than a nod at London’s Transport’s ubiquitous product!
(Copyright unknown).

Chris Hebbron

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01/10/13 – 10:45

Oh – if only Colin Curtis could see this!!!!!

Michael Hampton

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01/10/13 – 17:46

The Youtong vehicles were ordered as an up to date version of the buses that Skopje took second hand from LT in the early 1960s. Those of course were RTs but they have always been regarded as something special in the minds of the citizens and, obviously, the authorities. As they didn’t buy any second hand Routemasters at the time LT were withdrawing them, the new vehicles can probably be regarded as competing with the Borisbus in terms of using old shapes and ideas in a modern format. Neither would win a beauty contest but both are at least interesting and controversial. Just a pity that no British manufacturer could cater for Skopje’s needs.

Phil Blinkhorn

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01/10/13 – 17:47

Yes, he only missed out on the news by a few months.

Chris Hebbron

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01/10/13 – 17:48

Is this going straight into the Uglibus section?

Joe

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26/10/13 – 17:11

I was very interested in your section on Routemasters, particularly in the Tyne and Wear, County Durham areas 1970’s. One of your correspondents notes the 130 route, Newcastle to Sunderland. I can remember this being route 40 prior to 13O and continuing to Hartlepool or Middlesbrough. I am interested in obtaining any further info on this. I am also keen to bring back some more memories of routes south of the Tyne from this period and can recall a lot of them but would like to see a list. Do you have any idea where I can access such detail?

Dave Alcock

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27/10/13 – 16:12

The 40 was a rather hybrid route, dating historically to the owners of various parts of it before ‘grouping’. From the thirties until NBC days it was really two overlapping routes; United’s 40 ran from Middlesbrough to Sunderland via West Hartlepool, and that of Northern / SDO ran from West Hartlepoool to Newcastle via Sunderland. The overlapping section was a joint operation, with all of the companies running journeys from West Hartlepool to Sunderland to give a more frequent headway.
The United / Northern territorial boundary was at Easington Village, where passengers had to rebook, and United would run further short workings within their section, as well as frequent duplicates to fit in with mining shift times. In the same way Northern had short workings between Newcastle and Sunderland.
The United timetable only showed the Newcastle journeys as brief details, and the Northern timetable ignored the Middlesbrough section altogether (indeed anyone travelling from Sunderland to Middlesbrough would have found the Durham District routes D1 / D2 to be quicker.

David Todd

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31/12/13 – 07:20

It’s great reading all your comments,I was a conductor on the trollybusses in NW London 1958-1961 then went onto the RMs we changed overnight. The RM was a wonderful bus but in those early days some of them were experimental. We had RM 1134 at Stonebridge Park and the first time I took it out as a driver I pulled into a bus stop applied the brakes which came on then went off I braked harder and was nearly thrown through the windscreen. Then we had different suspension Dunlopillow was one where after a short while the conductor was sick because the rear of the bus just kept bouncing up and down all day. All garages were told to drive the bus in different ways we were told to drive in automatic at all times, Cricklewood were told to drive in manual it was supposed to save on fuel, I found that when the bus was fully loaded in the rush hour because the gear change from 1st to 2nd was so quick you lost all power so I used to pull away in auto click into second manually gun it then back into top. I last drove an RM in 1965 when I left, I am now 72 and have the chance to climb back into that wonderful bus for one more run {only on the test track at Canvey Island Essex} but I am looking forward to it you never forget how to drive them.

Bix Curtis

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24/04/18 – 06:47

Just to say in my opinion the last Routemasters front design was the best looking and handsome bus to this day.
The bonnet, grill, lights etc., never seem to get dated.
Anybody agree?
A real Bus!

Chris Campbell

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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10/06/18 – 08:50

Can anyone help me with info for a model of a Northern Routemaster in yellow. Three were painted in yellow for Tyneside area operation but one carried ‘GATESHEAD’ fleetnames, the other 2 ‘Northern’. Can anyone tell me which one it was that carried ‘Gateshead’ please.

Rob

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11/06/18 – 05:56

Whilst the undermentioned website lists all 50 Northern General Routemasters with photographs of each one (and in some cases a history of allocations, liveries etc) some vehicles have only the dates new, date renumbered and date sold. //www.northernroutemaster.co.uk/
There is a photograph of FPT 595C (Fleet number 2125 renumbered to 3109) in yellow but I can’t read the fleetname but it looks like Northern.
On the SCT61 website there is a photograph of RCN 687 (Fleet number 2125 renumbered to 3109) in yellow with the Northern fleetname. On the Northern Routemaster website there is a note regarding this vehicle: ‘In August 1975 this was one of two Routemasters to receive a less striking version of the Newcastle PTE yellow livery’. Photo here: //www.sct61.org.uk/ng3071
Hope the above helps narrow down your quest I don’t know.

David Slater

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23/06/18 – 06:51

These pictures of a Northern General Routemaster in a sorry state were taken in June 2014 at the yard of Carnell’s Coaches, Long Sutton , Lincolnshire. Carnell’s had previously gone into liquidation in November 2013, though the site still seemed to be in use, though access was not possible when I took the pictures. I cannot identify the actual bus because no number plate or fleet number can be seen. The destination blind shows "Eastbourne", and "Hailsham" is also just visible, which might give some clue to its earlier operation and hence identity. I returned to the site again shortly after to take another look, but the vehicle had then gone.

Roger Cox

Copyright Ian Wild

J Wood & Sons
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Park Royal H41/33F

A comment from Chris Hough dated 20th March concerning Bolton ABN213C mentions this ex Demonstrator Leyland Atlantean operated by Joseph Wood and Sons of Mirfield, West Yorkshire. It has a Sheffield design Park Royal body and it ran on the Mirfield to Dewsbury service which was joint with J J Longstaff & Sons and Yorkshire Woollen District. Its livery with Woods was slightly modified from that which it sported as a demonstrator. The photo was taken in September 1979 by which time the bus was 14 years old.
The bus has another claim to fame. I have a newspaper cutting dated July 1966 headed PRINCE OF THE ROAD which tells of a  visit by Prince Philip to Leyland Motors where he drove KTD ‘for a mile long drive on the test track’ and ‘returned the £8,000 bus safely’. A photograph with the inevitable 007 route number records the event. Amongst his passengers were Sir Donald Stokes, Managing Director of Leyland Motors together with Chairman Sir William Black.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

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04/05/12 – 07:37

Yes KTD replaced the ex Baxters Crossley that is now preserved and currently up for sale at Quantock Motor services. The plaque describing the driving by the Duke was removed before the bus was scrapped and is owned by Mr Colin Wood the son of Joseph Wood.

Philip Carlton

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04/05/12 – 08:55

While it was a demonstrator the bus served with the Wallace Arnold subsidiary on the “Kippax and District” route from Leeds via Halton, Crossgates and Garforth to Kipaax and Ledston Luck – again with the somewhat tiresome “007” in the route number display.

Chris Youhill

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04/05/12 – 14:43

The livery of this bus, to me, looks modern and gives a more modern appearance to the vehicle than might otherwise be the case. I like the way the ‘W’ has been incorporated in the waistline stripe. Simplicity is usually best.

Chris Hebbron

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08/05/12 – 07:36

Oh how I agree with Chris regarding the livery style of the Atlantean and even more with his view that simplicity is usually best. The concept of a simple refined livery and layout appears to be totally forgotten nowadays with swoops and slashes and assorted disjointed shapes which bear no relationship to the lines of the bodywork in fact they seem to be deliberately “designed” to jar and clash. The new First livery is a glaring example of this both inside and out, I also find the Stagecoach layout to be unpleasantly disjointed and the interior rather garish.

Diesel Dave

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08/05/12 – 12:07

I agree entirely Diesel Dave – public transport has never looked more appalling and meaningless – at obscene expense. Managements insist that such horrors of marketing actually increase passenger numbers considerably, but I doubt if the artwork is the reason at all. I bet a straw poll of folks in the street would reveal conclusively that hardly a soul has any idea, or the remotest interest, – IF the vehicle is on its branded route, often they are not for obvious operational reasons. Thank goodness for the restrictions imposed by, I believe, TFL which ensure that buses in the Capital are practically pleasing red all over.
Digressing very briefly, the same unsightly nonsense applies also to the railways. I look out of my flat at Headingley station a quarter of a mile away and see the Northern Rail trains all day – anyone would think quite justifiably that the Depot yards had been invaded by an organised army of aerosol wielding graffiti louts. I despair.

Chris Youhill

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09/05/12 – 08:09

Weren’t they a rather pleasing Maroon/Brown/Dark Green colour with a large gold ‘N’ originally (I’m colour-blind, Chris Y).

Chris Hebbron

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09/05/12 – 08:11

I too agree with Diesel Dave, particularly about the First livery, just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse, it did! The truly insipid pastel shades introduced a couple of months ago were, I understood, to have provision for local identity but I haven’t seen any evidence of such. The new Wright bodied deckers for First Manchester bear the words ‘We believe in improving your bus service’ Hardly a convincing message when they’ve recently been fined a quarter of a million pounds for poor performance!
My local operator, Trent Barton, not only route brands but has a different livery for each separate service with just about every colour on the shade card being used. The downside of this is that many passengers think that they are all operated by different companies. Sure, they’ve won ‘Bus Operator of the Year’ a couple of times but although such awards are coveted within the industry, I doubt, as Chris Y says, they mean anything at all to people in the street, none of whom had a vote!

Chris Barker

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09/05/12 – 09:26

To be perfectly honest Chris H there have been so many railway livery changes in recent years that I’ve lost track (Oh dear, I promise no pun intended there) of the time and detail boundaries. The simple but pleasing WYPTE (Metro – that poor over used word again) colours were plain maroon with a light custard band – individual, sane, and universally understood. When the franchise was gained by Arriva the trains were painted in that Organisation’s colours of pleasing mid blue with the “cow’s horn” cream section, again excellent. I do vaguely remember the plain gold “N” but I think that this was applied only temporarily to stock remaining in Metro maroon and cream (gold). The basic Northern Rail colour is a quite rich and pleasant “regal” blue and the “N” logo is OK, but then the rot sets in. The wild and totally meaningless (and expensive) coloured graffiti shapes have to be seen to be believed, as have huge pictures of town halls and waterfalls and so forth.
Sorry to seemingly digress onto railways, but the atrocious waste of money and disfigurement of otherwise handsome vehicles is a parallel scandal to the one we are discussing on the buses.

Chris Youhill

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09/05/12 – 19:17

One exceptional disfigurement, Chris Y, was dinosaurs on the IoW 1938 LU stock. One, at least, now carries true 1938 livery with silver roof and richer red, as befits a 74 year-old!

Chris Hebbron

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09/05/12 – 19:34

Yes, Chris Y & H, I agree with your aversion to the manic and illogical bus and train liveries now so common throughout the UK. However, one notable exception is the smart Grand Central Railway livery which (so far) has not fallen under the influence of their new owner – Arriva.

Paul Haywood

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02/06/12 – 07:06

How I agree with the comments above on “modern” liveries, most of which seem to be the product of ecstasy induced nightmares. The preposterous original version of the “First” (how supremely ironic a name for such a company) Barbie livery had the grubby white/pink/purple shades blending into one another. Whoever devised that, and I expect that a consultancy firm received handsome payment for the aberration, had no concept of the practical world of panel damage. Not only are such liveries painful excrescences to the eye, but the over tight grasp exerted by the big groups upon their maintenance budgets is painfully apparent in the appearance of external paintwork. The older, and by no means old, buses of my local Stagecoach outfit are scruffy in the extreme. They bear absolutely no comparison with the impeccable fleet standards offered by the nearby Delaine and Norfolk Green businesses.

Roger Cox

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02/06/12 – 11:59

The version of First’s livery to which Roger Cox refers was known as ‘Barbie 2’ and used for older types of vehicle. Many may may not realise that the ‘fading shades’ applied to the lower panels was actually an enormous vinyl that was a nightmare to apply, requiring several people several hours to wrap it around the entire bus, trimming and snipping around the wheelarches, fuel filler and other access flaps, grilles, lights etc. It had to be fitted around all the beading strips between the panels and around the wheelarches, but inevitably bubbled up, split or peeled away round the edges. If any oxidation occurred in the aluminium panels it would form large bubbles which someone would always be tempted to burst. The bus washing machine then had a field day with it !
Repairing minor accident damage was then very difficult. One depot actually started to cut the vinyls down by half into a narrower strip, eliminating the fadeout effect, but looking equally silly. I don’t imagine anyone involved with maintaining the buses was ever consulted about the practicality of it all.
Design Consultants eh ?

John Stringer

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03/06/12 – 07:03

Nothing really to do with this subject. But John Stringer mentions a word I hate… Consultants. I’m sure John will remember the time at WYPTE, when a consultant said that there was no need for 2 vehicle workshops based on Kirkstall and Thornbury, so Thornbury went. Then a couple of years later another consultancy came along and said there was a need for central workshops in either division.
Personal titbit, worked with Colin Wood when I worked at Abbeyways 1994/5. Great bloke, good sense of humour.

Chris Ratcliffe

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03/06/12 – 07:03

The new”local livery” now used by First is little better using a pale lilac that will surely fade quickly Far better to use proper local colours based on the former colours of constituent companies.

Chris Hough

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03/06/12 – 11:12

You can live in hope Chris, but I fear you will die in despair!

Eric Bawden

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03/06/12 – 19:35

Sadly Eric I fear you are right!

Chris Hough

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06/06/12 – 07:46

Consultants : “They borrow your watch to tell you the time, and then sell it back to you.”
Committees : “The incompetent, picked by the incapable to do the unnecessary.”
I’ll just go and put my tin hat on!

Stephen Ford

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06/06/12 – 09:46

Why?

David Oldfield

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07/06/12 – 10:31

Why indeed Stephen – I’m sure that 99.9% of folk to several decimal places agree with you. I find the new “First Leeds” local “livery” to be as bad and un-necessary as anything before it. Who on earth wants to pay towards silhouette pictures of local landmarks concealed within the “LEEDS” lettering ??

Chris Youhill

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10/06/12 – 08:15

This discussion seems to be getting further and further away from the attractive outline and livery of this Atlantean. Am I right in thinking that this same Park Royal style was used on Birmingham’s KOX…F series? It’s pleasing to know, however, that there are still SOME operators who use liveries of a traditional style. Delaine, Pennine, and a few others are well known. Here in Hampshire, there is a father and son operation XELABUS, based in Winchester and Eastleigh, using the old Hants & Dorset livery. Very nice, too!

Pete Davies

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10/06/12 – 14:46

Xelabus are operating Southsea’s Open Top Sea Front service (X25), from Gun Wharf Quays to the Royal Marines Museum, Eastney, via Clarence Pier, Blue Reef Aquarium and South Parade Pier, but only on Saturday, Sundays and Bank Holidays throughout the summer: daily during the Summer School Holidays. The original CPPTD route ran from Clarence Pier to Hayling Ferry. They have kept the original route number, which was 25. Wonder what vehicles they will use; certainly not Leyland TD4’s!

Chris Hebbron

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12/06/12 – 18:51

A nice write-up on Xelabus in the latest “Buses” magazine (No.687 June 2012) states that the principal bus to be used will be an ex-Lothian Atlantean, GJZ 9571), originally registered BFS 14L. The reserve vehicle will be an ex-Portsmouth Atlantean, No 11 ERV 251D. This is one of their heritage fleet. I don’t know what liveries these now carry – haven’t been to Southsea to see them yet, even though I’m local! So we’re getting back on track with the comments – two Atlanteans, albeit with different bodies (Alexander and Metro-Cammell) to the original Park Royal one at the top.

Michael Hampton

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13/06/12 – 09:41

What happened to Woods? Didn’t they become part of the Abbeyways “group”, but then what . . . ? I remember that, in the 1980s, they ran an ex-Singapore Alexander-bodied 12m Leopard (in Abbeyways livery)on the 205 (as the Dewsbury-Knowle-Mirfield route had become under WYPTE numbering), but then they seemed to disappear – at some point.
Incidentally, Longstaff has recently given up on this route – its timings have passed to Lyles of Batley, although Metro publicity still refers to operations as being conducted by “Longstaff of Mirfield”. Anybody know the story here?
Anyway, what were Wood’s colours? I’ve always assumed they were black and white – because they look black and white in the only photographs I’ve seen, which are black and white . . . errm . . .

Philip Rushworth

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15/06/12 – 05:47

As stated Joseph Wood and Son was purchased by Abbeyways under the guise of Go Big Ltd. The livery was always Black and Cream. The depot was in Lee Green Mirfield and shortly after Abbeyways had wound up the operation it was sold to Ron Lyles of Batley who afterwards moved back to Batley. Then the depot was demolished and today there is now old peoples flats there. With regards to J.J. Longstaff earlier this year the operation along with the two buses was sold to Albert Lyles Coaches who are trading on the service as Longstaffs. The only difference is that the service now starts and finishes at Dewsbury whereas before the service started and finished at Northorpe where Longstaffs garage was.

Philip Carlton

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16/06/12 – 07:21

I worked for Abbeyways in 1993/4. I remember being sent with a message for Colin Wood one day at a garage which had the Crossley in under restoration, and I think a coach in the Abbeyways livery that had been withdrawn sometime. It certainly was not Luck Lane in Huddersfield, and I seem to remember coming away from there and turning right on to the A62 towards Leeds, but I couldn’t tell you if that was the Woods Depot, although the Crossley was a big clue I suppose. Going by what Steven Ives did in Blackpool with Abbots Coaches, then it is probable that apart from the name he bought nothing. Happy to be proved wrong on this but that is certainly what he did in Blackpool. I seem to think though that Colin Wood lived next to this depot, and part of the deal was for him to keep it. Somebody out there will probably know.

Chris Ratcliffe

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17/06/12 – 07:35

It has been interesting to read some of the comments here regarding peoples’ preference for traditional livery applications.
I personally never liked this particular design of body. It was basically a late-in-the day attempt by Park Royal to disguise its original MCW-style box to compete with such as the superb Alexander design, and in my opinion it never looked right in any livery. Oddly, Roe – part of the Park Royal Group – managed to do quite a good job of updating the low-height version by adding an Alexander-inspired front to Atlanteans for West Riding and King Alfred. I thought they looked really good, even though mechanically they were perhaps not so.
I am afraid that I do not believe that Wood’s livery did this one any favours either. The band below the lower deck windows just looks wrong – too thick and set too low – as does the total absence of relief colour on the top half of the bus.
I think if it ever looked even passable, it was probably when in its original demonstration livery.
I am in agreement with most about preferring the traditional liveries of old, though many would be just too fussy to transfer comfortably to the lines of certain modern buses, and would need simplifying.
A number of operators over the years have revived an old livery on a new bus to celebrate an anniversary. Many have looked really well, but some looked really awkward and self-conscious.
I have always thoroughly disliked First’s livery, but am staggered frankly at their latest mess. I have to admit that as modern liveries go, some of the Blazefield/Transdev companies schemes seemed to be quite good – strong, distinctive, contrasting colours applied quite simply. I had rather hoped that when Giles Fearnley moved to First some of this influence might have come with him. Instead the new ‘style’ is pale and wishy-washy, with odd stripes here and there for no apparent reason, starting and finishing in the middle of nowhere. It looks like it was designed by a committee to me. A thorough disappointment.

John Stringer

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17/06/12 – 07:36

Regarding the operation by Abbeyways of Joseph Wood mention has been made of the ex Singapore Leopard demonstrator that was used on the service from Dewsbury to Mirfield. My recollection is they also used buses from the Hyndburn hire fleet both doubles and single deckers and for a while they ran service 208 from Dewsbury to Whitley. The depot Chris Ratcliffe visited was at Lee Green Mirfield as mentioned in my earlier posting. I have never found out why Abbeyways gave up operations at Mirfield but this seems typical of Steven Ives.

Philip Carlton

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18/06/12 – 08:01

Lets hope for a return to some traditional colours in West Yorkshire. I’ve heard on the rumour mill that First has put everything in Yorkshire (and more possibly) up for sale with the exception of Leeds – including the York operations it invested in quite heavily a few years back. That might explain why I haven’t seen any Halifax/Bradford/Huddersfield names on the new livery (what would First have chosen as the sky-line for “Bradford”, given the present state of the city centre [non] redevelopment? – a pile of rubble??). Are First planning to pull out of Sheffield? Whatever, come on Transdev, come on Go-Ahead, buy in there and re-invent (I agree with John, you can’t always resurrect) some of the wonderful liveries from the past. We could debate the aesthetics of this Park Royal body style against its contemporaries, but it still looks way better than today’s offerings – and, moreover, it doesn’t look like it would fall apart when it hit the first stone/pot-hole in the road.

Philip Rushworth

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19/06/12 – 08:19

I am intrigued to learn that First are now pursuing wholesale withdrawal from West Yorkshire. One wonders what this group’s business plan now is, as it seems to be getting out of some major conurbations. It withdrew from Kings Lynn a couple of years ago, where the operations were taken over very effectively by the smart fleet of Norfolk Green, whose livery is very much in the traditional style. Since then, Bury St. Edmunds has been abandoned. Perhaps, after the initial flurry of manic, cut-throat competition, and then the establishment of large regional monopolies, we are about to see phase three of the deregulation scene, with the expansion of soundly established independent operators into the “vacated” areas.

Roger Cox

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19/06/12 – 09:19

I hope the rumour mill is correct certainly Rotherham seems on its last legs and Stagecoach are proving a viable contender in Sheffield If only Leeds would also go to someone with pride in what they do unlike First with their poor quality take it or leave it attitude.

Chris Hough

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19/06/12 – 11:41

Despite early bad publicity – often either malicious or simply incorrect – Stagecoach has developed into one of the best groups around, along with Go-Ahead. As someone who does not have shares in Stagecoach but an informed observer, this pleases me. I, like many others, would be happy to see First disappear from South Yorkshire – and many other places too – but feel that it would be unhealthy if Stagecoach were left to it themselves. I agree that the best situation would be for a decent independent to emerge. Failing that for Go-Ahead to come in and support “healthy” competition.

David Oldfield

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19/06/12 – 13:35

Roger, the actual words used by First were ‘We may have to re-position our UK bus portfolio’. That was when they felt the need to issue a profits warning earlier this year. That’s what it’s all about, unfortunately, their primary duty is to make a profit for their shareholders, but how is it, that some seem to achieve this in a better way than others? I agree with the view about Stagecoach, some of their tactics in the past have been despicable, but they do appear to have become one of the better players. How many times have you seen the words ‘municipal pride’ attached to many of the old council operations? What a great shame the former municipals in South and West Yorkshire, in their present day ownership, have become very much a case of profit first, service second!

Chris Barker

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20/06/12 – 08:32

Just returned from a weeks holiday in Cheltenham were we travelled just about everywhere by Stagecoach. We made use of their excellent West Megarider gold ticket which, at £19.50 gave unlimited 7 day travel covering an area centred on Gloucester as far out as Hereford, Tewkesbury, Oxford, Swindon, Marlborough, Trowbridge, Chippenham, Lydney and Monmouth. There is also a good selection of smaller area runabout type tickets to choose from at varying prices. Excellent value when you consider the five minute journey from where I live into Halifax costs £2 with First. Whilst Stagecoach do have some competition from smaller independents in the Gloucester/Cheltenham area by and large they seem to “rule the roost” with there network of services yet still provide a ten minute frequency from the suburbs into Cheltenham plus the ten minute frequency between Cheltenham and Gloucester using high quality double deckers (leather high back seats etc.). One must also bear in mind the largely rural nature of most services once out of the towns and cities. Being visitors to the area we also found the drivers willing and helpful in answering our queries.
From my experience of Stagecoach West I think it shows that a large conglomerate, with a bit of thought, can get the balance right between shareholder needs and providing a service to the public

Eric Bawden

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21/06/12 – 06:50

Usually, once a year, I go for a Grand Day Out, by bus, with a friend. However, on a Friday, last summer, I got the megabus from Gloucester to Swindon, a Stagecoach West bus from Swindon to Andover, then used Stagecoach Hampshire to get to Winchester, where a friend lives. We came back by car on the Monday. I got some advance advice from Stagecoach West, not for the first time, and have always found them to be helpful, making enquiries of their neighbouring colleagues, where necessary. They have also re-introduced a through service from Gloucester to Hereford and later buses on Gloucester’s routes, now leaving town centre at around 23:30hrs. My local town service had a 15 minute frequency during the day, hourly after 19:00hrs. I have no connexions with the company.
Local Gloucester independents are Aston’s, Pullen’s, Swanbrook, Jackie’s and Mike’s Travel. The days of National Welsh and Midland Red, who ran an express service to Birmingham, are long gone! Other routes went to Abergavenny and also Cardiff, although the latter route has been progressively cut back to Newport, then Chepstow, now Lydney!

Chris Hebbron

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21/06/12 – 06:51

When I attended the Harrington Gathering at Amberley, I got chatting to a Stagecoach employee from Brighton. Among his comments about my life in Southern Hampshire was one that falls in with several above. The recent service changes which First made here a couple of months ago were an utter waste of time and money. I had heard from several of the local drivers and inspectors that it was a last ditch attempt to generate more than they were spending, but the chap from Brighton said the other groups between them give First six months before collapse.
We shall see!

Pete Davies

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21/06/12 – 11:29

I’m sure the MD of Stagecoach West would be pleased to hear the above comments. [I have to declare an interest here; he’s a friend of mine.]

David Oldfield

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22/06/12 – 11:17

This was Woods last decker and was replaced by a Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopard The body design although mainly associated with Sheffield was also bought by Birmingham Leicester and Salford.

Chris Hough

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22/06/12 – 15:05

David O, you are welcome to show your md friend my comments on Stagecoach West

Eric Bawden

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23/06/12 – 06:05

Sorry to contradict the comment about KTD 551C being the last decker.It was replaced by an ex London DMS TGX 769M.Incidentally the Leopard mentioned had its Plaxton service bus body scrapped and the chassis was sold to Stanley Gath of Dewsbury who had a number of older chassis rebodied but for some reason this never happened and the chassis was dismantled for spares.

Philip Carlton

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23/06/12 – 06:06

This is a bit off topic, I know, but relates very topically to the issues discussed above, and very indirectly to Woods-will the “Woods” return?
Metro, that is the West Yorks Transport Authority have today announced a plan to take control- as they may- of local buses in terms of “quality contracts”- supposed to be like London, but sounds like the Railways to me, too. Bus passengers have plummeted: presumably the idea is to make the buses run where they are needed, on time, at approved fares- and most importantly, turn up at all, on some routes. In my youth it was unthinkable that the bus would not turn up… that attitude- the Woods or Ledgards or some of the old Municipals- is what we need. Presumably First got wind….

Joe

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23/06/12 – 14:22

Thanks Philip I’d forgotten the DMS The other independent Longstaff ran an ex Devon General tin front AEC Regent III for a while and bought a long wheel base Atlantean with NCME bodywork which ran for the late lamented Black Prince for a time.

Chris Hough

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24/06/12 – 15:24

The Leyland Atlantean of J.J.Longstaff was sold by Black Prince and eventually became a cut down recovery vehicle with Yorkshire Traction. I drove for Longstaffs in the late 1970s.Incidentally Mr Brian Longstaff the last surviving son of the founder John James Longstaff died a couple of years ago. As mentioned in these listings the family have sold the business to Albert Lyles Coaches of Batley who are still operating the service 205 from Dewsbury to Mirfield exactly as Longstaffs did.

Philip Carlton

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25/06/12 – 07:33

Nice to see the business (and route) going to another independent.

Chris Hebbron

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25/06/12 – 07:34

I had a aunt who lived at Ravensthorpe and we occasionally visited for tea. After a while I would escape and go watch the buses passing by along North Road. These were on the joint YWD/Wood/Longstaff service mentioned, but it was interesting that it was only when Metro (WYPTE) took charge of timetables that all three operators’ timings were listed. YWD had stubbornly refused to mention the other two’s timings, giving the impression that it was only hourly instead of every 20 minutes. I remember Wood’s Crossley, and the replacement Atlantean, but there was also an ex-Glasgow Leyland Worldmaster – FYS 689 – which for a while ran with its original Weymann/GCT body before Wood’s rebodied it with a new Plaxton Panorama Elite coach body. It later passed to Tower Coaches who ran it for many years, although by then it had a later style Leopard badge, and sounded more Leopard than Worldmaster, so they may have replaced more than just the body. Worldmasters sounded distinctly different from Leopards – we had nine of our own in Halifax and I was very familiar with them (more of these another time).
I seem to also remember a Burlingham bus bodied Atkinson single decker before that.
Longstaff’s had an ex-LT RT – HLX 321 – which then gave way to a marvellous ex-Devon General Regent III/Weymann Orion (with ‘New Look’ front)of the PDV-registered batch, like the two that Ledgard’s had. This was replaced with the unusual Daimler CSG6/30 /Northern Counties LSN 286 with David Brown synchromesh gearboxes, that had been new to Garelochhead Coach Service.
Longstaff’s too had a single decker, which was a Tiger Cub/Weymann Hermes, which I think was ex-Rhondda.

John Stringer

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25/06/12 – 17:06

Longstaff’s Tiger Cub replaced a far more interesting saloon, Sentinel STC4/40 OUP 579, which ran for them on the Dewsbury service from November 1961 to November 1965. The vehicle had been new in October 1953 (making it one of the last STC4/40s to be sold) and was originally operated by Trimdon Motor Services. Strangely TMS only kept it until February 1955 – most of their Sentinels lasted until the end of the decade before disposal. It then ran for a couple of contractors on staff services (an astonishingly young vehicle by most contractors’ standards!) before being acquired by LG Phillips of Glynceiriog in June 1961 from the Don Everall dealership. Three months later Everalls repossessed it (their version) or had it returned to them because it was rubbish (Phillips’ version) and then it went to Longstaff.
The fact that Longstaffs kept it for four years, in daily service on a busy urban route, might help readers to make up their minds as to which version was true. It certainly looked very nice in Longstaff’s two-tone blue livery, and an excellent colour shot of it can be found in Geoff Lumb’s book “The Heyday of the Bus in Yorkshire” (Ian Allan).
After withdrawal by Longstaff it went to another Phillips, this one of Shiptonthorpe, and gave another year of service on works contracts before being scrapped.

Neville Mercer

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26/06/12 – 06:46

Regarding John Stringers comment about Y.W.D not acknowledging that the service from Dewsbury to Mirfield was a joint service rang a bell with me. Longstaffs and Woods departed from the side of Dewsbury Minster yet the YWD bus left from the bus station on the other side of the road. Brian Longstaff once told me that they acquired a Saunders bodied London RT with a route roof number box. Longstaffs painted the number 11 on it and were given a sharp rebuke from YWD and were told to remove it which they did. Yet later when YWD were having a severe vehicle shortage a Longstaffs bus went on hire to YWD in the evenings and was crewed with a Longstaffs driver and a YWD conductor and of course this timing went from the bus station.

Philip Carlton

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15/02/14 – 15:25

One of the problems of fitting vinyl is that in corners there is a tendency for the vinyl not to fit right into the corner but take a short cut. If you could see a side on view it would look like a triangle with the vinyl being the long edge. This is called “tenting”.
Inevitably the vinyl eventually tears (as it is under stress) or develops a hole, water is trapped behind it and creates a bubble that some are tempted to burst. Either way it can provide the conditions for rot to get a foothold.
Vinyl comes in various grades and many operators choose the cheaper grades. Sunlight is not kind to it!
In a similar vein: Contravision.
Contravision is quite simply perforated vinyl. From the outside the eye sees the “big picture”. The eye doesn’t see the thousands of very small holes.
In theory from the inside the eye sees through the holes to the outside view as this is brighter. I am sure we are all familiar with various optical illusions and how the “mind” can be confused. This can happen with Contravision where some just seem to see the inside of the vinyl.
What causes the problem is the perforated holes fill up with grime / grease etc. Washing doesn’t seem to remove it as any brush glides over the top as the vinyl sits proud. The only solution is to literally pick out the grime from each hole – a fools errand.
As much as advertising revenue is important to operators I seriously wonder if the long term loss to the business (in terms of customer perception and satisfaction etc) is greater.

David R

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23/02/14 – 06:51

First of all may I make a comment about the ostensible ‘joint’ service referred to – and this will come a bit alien to anyone who wasn’t around at the time of Road Service Licensing.
Longstaff and Wood operated a joint service, to the extent that it was covered by a joint Road Service Licence. The YWD Service 11 was completely independent, even though it followed exactly the same route – except for the terminating arrangement in Dewsbury, of course. However the timings were coordinated to the effect that, between the three operators, a twenty-minute service was provided.
The above, John S, is the reason why there was no mention of the Longstaff/Wood service in the YWD timetable – YWD would have had no more reason to include it than they would the service of any other operator which ran in its area. However there was a time (this would be the early 1970s, at least) when there was a separate section in the YWD timetable for other operators’ services – and the Longstaff/Wood operation was shown there, i.e. not in the same section as YWD Service 11. This showing of other operators’ services was widespread throughout the NBC at the time.
Finally, Philip C, referring to the story of Longstaff going on hire to YWD, if the hirings took place in the evenings (rather than peak times), it sounds as though it was drivers YWD were short of at the time, rather than vehicles.

David Call

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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24/02/14 – 07:43

I drove for Longstaffs in the early 1980s. Brian Longstaff once told me that on Sundays they were willing to have the day off alternating with J,Wood on a weekly basis but Alice Wood would not comply so the three services ran even though there was not enough passengers for one bus never mind three. Now a days the service does not run on Sundays and terminates at 8 P.M whereas when I drove we worked until 11.30.

Philip Carlton