Old Bus Photos

Southdown – Bedford OB – JCD 371 – 71

1948 Southdown Bedford OB/Duple Coach 71 - JCD 371
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Southdown Motor Services
1948
Bedford OB
Duple C27F

Another example of the ubiquitous Bedford OB/Duple coach, but bought by an operator who eschewed non-standard, other than for specific purposes. For this purpose, a Leyland/Harrington vehicle would not do!
Hayling Island, to the East of Portsea Island (Portsmouth) led a very quiet existence until the mid ‘30’s, when the first stirrings emerged and it became popular as a seaside resort, with a holiday camp. However, it suffered from a weak road bridge (and rail bridge, too, but that’s another story!) and Southdown purchased two Dennis half-cab Falcons in 1939, running to and from the island from Havant on the mainland.
However, although they were light enough to traverse the bridge, they were only allowed to do so if the vehicle was empty, thus, all passengers had to alight and proceed across the bridge on foot, re-joining the bus the other side!
They performed this task alone, until the two Bedfords were bought in 1948 with standard 27-seat Duple coach bodies and numbered 70 and 71 (JCD 370 and 371). Like the Dennis Falcons, they were acquired for the Hayling Island services because they were lightweight vehicles. However, being coaches, unlike the Falcons, their duties also included regular runs to London.
All four vehicles were withdrawn when a replacement bridge to the Island was built in the mid 1950s. Both Falcons were withdrawn entirely, but one survives (see HERE)
The Bedford/Duples were then transferred to other duties away from the area (No.70 was used for a while on bus services out of East Grinstead) with both being disposed of by 1960.

"Note that the coach is absolutely impeccable – a trademark of Southdown, who, for a large company, took a pride in their vehicles. Their name was always in ‘real writing’ on their coaches (and open-top austerity Guy Arab II’s) but printed on their buses. The letters were always filled with gold leaf – no expense spared!
Also, note the driver in full Summer regalia, linen jacket, with cap! Those were the days."

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (with vehicle history assistance from Dick Gilbert – Classic Buses Website).


This photograph evokes fond memories of Southdown coaches regularly seen visiting Harrogate in the late sixties and early seventies. Their usual haunt was The Old Swan Hotel, an attractive and genteel establishment famous for being the one time hideaway of Agatha Christie, and very Southdown. The vehicles were usually Leyland Leopards with either Plaxton or Harrington coachwork, and Southdown used the hotel for overnight stays or as a base for excursions into the Yorkshire Dales and beyond, I seem to think. As with the Bedford Chris, the Leopards were always immaculately turned out. A coach in that rich green livery with gold script fleetname was simply a joy to behold and definitely a case of ‘less is more’ in terms of quality.
Hayling Island is also familiar, as in 1973 two West Yorkshire colleagues and I decided to spend a week at Warner’s Sunshine Holiday Centre – presumably that very same holiday camp mentioned in the text. We booked it as a bit of fun for the week, but also used it as a base to tour the area. I was therefore privileged to see many Southdown buses still in their original green and rich cream livery, with relatively few in the new NBC corporate leaf green and white. Again all were smartly presented. I can also vividly recall seeing the Tilling green buses of neighbouring Hants & Dorset running alongside some similar buses repainted in the new livery of NBC poppy RED – including an early LD Lodekka in Gosport still with its long radiator grille!
On the subject of fleetnames, like Southdown, United was another operator to use gold script on its coaches and block capitals on its buses, if memory serves correctly. In either operator’s case, the liveries were certainly much classier than some of the vinyl-clad ‘circus wagon’ offerings we have seen since from some quarters.

Brendan Smith


The first dedicated vehicles bought by Southdown for the Hayling Island services were 6 TSM B39’s with lightweight Short bodies in 1933. These were followed by 6 Leyland Cub SKPZ2’s with Park Royal B26R bodies in 1936, and 11 Leyland Cheetah LZ3&4 Coaches in 1938/39. The TSMs were commandeered by the War Office 1940. After the war 10 Dennis Falcon P4’s with Dennis 30 seat bus bodies arrived in 1949, and the 2 Bedfords augmented the Cheetahs on the Express Service to London and local excursions.
The 2 prewar Falcons were purchased in 1939 for the Tramocar service on Worthing Sea Front, and moved to Hayling Island in 1950. In addition there was an open top service using Leyland TD1’s along the sea front in summer. Also there was the train from Havant using Stroudley A1x tank engines.
In the late 40s and early 50s it was a wonderful place for a young transport enthusiast.

Pat Jennings


22/01/12 – 06:58

Not quite in the same vein, but when I was a child many many years ago I used to sit in a coach belonging to "Unique Coaches" on Brighton seafront waiting for the "Unique" day trip to commence, while numerous Southdown buses rolled past around the giant roundabout outside the Palace Pier, They had class and style, I remember them well. As a matter of interest does anyone else remember Unique Coaches.

Tony


22/01/12 – 09:16

Hi, Tony. Maybe I’m dyslexic, (or more probably just going senile and getting mixed up), but although I don’t remember ‘Unique’ coaches on Brighton seafront, I have a recollection of ‘Ubique’ coaches. Could we be thinking of the same operator? As for the Southdown buses rolling around the Palace Pier roundabout, there was a wee scam on some local services that Inspectors on regulating duties at Pool Valley needed to look out for. A few crews, (not many), due to be relieved would occasionally try to make an extra, unscheduled trip around Old Steine, thus arriving ‘late’ and so getting covered for the first trip of the later part of their shift.

Roy Burke


22/01/12 – 17:27

What a treat to see this lovely picture. My opinion of the beautiful little Bedford OB/Duple coaches was that they were classically handsome, had a welcoming and "friendly" expression, and could claim a very creditable, honest, and comfortable performance rarely matched by any other vehicle of similar general specification. What I’d give these days to hear that wonderful pure third gear wail diminishing magically into "trolleybus standard" quietness upon engaging top.

Chris Youhill


23/01/12 – 07:29

Try this YouTube clip for size, Chris Y. Start from 3mins, or shut your eyes from the beginning to that point, or you’ll get a headache! It’s ears that matter here! //www.youtube.com/

Chris Hebbron


23/01/12 – 10:13

Thank you Chris for that – my word what wonderful condition for a "utility" – someone has put some professional work into keeping that little gem in such superb condition throughout. I particularly like the "service bus" white bell push midway along the nearside. I shall now enjoy my breakfast garnished with just the mildest whiff of lovely petrol vapour – if I’d known of this bus in 2007 I might have been tempted to travel to Wales for a ride !!

Chris Youhill


24/01/12 – 05:44

Please allow me to thank you too Chris for the YouTube OWB!!
I love to listen to good music, especially a good New Orleans Jazz Band, but this has to be the Number 1 of the Top Twenty Hit Parade of all time!.
What a superbly evocative sound! It brings it all back, and the last 60 years just slip away!
I’m back in Bridlington in 1948, aboard a White Bus Service OWB.
Absolutely wonderful. Any ideas about re-experiencing other such music, say a 5LW in a Bristol "J", or anything else of equal concert variety?
Thanks again

John Whitaker


24/01/12 – 08:17

Daimler CVD6 with fluid flywheel waiting at a stop….? Anywhere?

Joe


24/01/12 – 08:17

I’m with you there in Queen Street waiting to depart for Flamborough John – Bridlington was my second home from infancy to mid thirties, and White Bus, Williamsons and EYMS were fascinating beyond description. Did you notice the incredible coincidence in the numbers of the two White Bus OWBs ?? – ASD 149 and EWW 149 !!

Chris Youhill


24/01/12 – 09:26

Thank you Chris H for such a super link which I have listened to with rapture. The Bedford OWB "music" is one you never forget. Many of my postings include a reference to sound so I wonder whether Peter might consider a new section on this site?

Richard Fieldhouse


24/01/12 – 09:27

We have a common heritage Chris! I just loved WBS, but honestly had not noticed the reg. coincidence. Lighthouse, north Landing, Thornwick Bay. What wonderful destination names they had.
I can still see a Halifax Regent at the Lighthouse turn, where some friends from Bradford had a PLSC holiday bungalow, just under the old tower!
Our bungalow was a Bradford tram, on the other side of Brid, at Skipsea, where my love of EYMS originated, with childhood memories of oval rear windows, and 3 window upper deck fronts!
Them wer`t days!

John Whitaker


24/01/12 – 10:37

John…I’ve just loaded my film of Bristol L KLJ 749 ex Hants & Dorset 779 which you might like. I’m sorry the passengers are nattering away with excitement but the bus is still doing a fine job on the way out along the A37 from Whitchurch near Bristol towards Pensford. You can view it at this link.//www.youtube.com/

Richard Leaman


24/01/12 – 10:38

…..but the musical sounds of these veteran and vintage gearboxes is a big part of what it is about for us oldies. They give character to the vehicles which is singularly lacking in the hoards of modern, soul-less sewing machines – no matter how good they may be in a definitive sense. AEC Regents (I – V), Guy Arabs and petrol Bedfords step up to plate (in particular) for post war honours.

David Oldfield


24/01/12 – 15:42

Here is the second video that you may wish to watch and listen to.
This is Bristol L C2736 on Bristol Bus Running Day with some superb gear changing! //www.youtube.com/

Richard Leaman


25/01/12 – 05:08

There was a small independent in Derbyshire who ran two services from his home village, Crich (home of the National Tramway Museum) to Derby, shopping service on Fridays and to Ripley on Saturdays. The rest of the week he was a coal merchant! His fleet was just two Bedford OB’s both bought new and I spent many happy hours as a youth travelling on them. One thing I’ve often wondered is, given that some operators re-bodied OWB’s in the late 40’s with Duple Vista bodies, what exactly was the difference between the two chassis?

Chris Barker


25/01/12 – 06:45

I stand to be corrected but I don’t think there was much, if any, difference. W was the "war" designation – just as the difference between Daimler’s COG/CWG/CVG. There may have been the use of war-time materials – Guy Arabs were heavier as a result.

David Oldfield


25/01/12 – 13:12

Hi Richard, and thanks for the wonderful "Bristolian" sound tracks. A whole new sphere of interest could open up here!
Regarding wartime Bedfords, and other makes for that matter, many alloys, and aluminium were unavailable, and had to be replaced by ferrous metals. or other materials with better availability. This tended to increase overall weight, but otherwise, I am led to believe that, design wise, there was very little difference between, say COG5 and CWG5 Daimlers, and OB and OWB Bedfords.

John Whitaker


26/01/12 – 05:50

On the subject of gearbox music, I must put in a word for the Crossley. Whatever else may have been wrong with them, there was never a sweeter transmission sound than that.

Peter Williamson

I am at the moment working on a new page for the site titled ‘Old Bus Sounds’ which will be a bus sound reference library. Should go live this weekend hopefully.

Peter


26/01/12 – 10:48

I don’t recall any noticeable transmission delights with Portsmouth’s DD42’s, but they had Brockhouse Turbo Converters, presumably with different transmission.
However, when most of them were converted to house Leyland TD engines, the TD gearboxes were fitted with the engines. That gave them a new sound dimension as well as fooling some folk!
Their sole 1931 Crossley (later converted into a breakdown tender, now preserved) has a wealth of interesting noises – //www.youtube.com/

Chris Hebbron


27/01/12 – 06:16

Aluminium was in short supply in the automotive field during World War II, as John points out, due to its increased use in helping the war effort, and as a result many vehicle components had to be made of other materials. Gardner, for example used cast iron for its LW crankcases, endplates, sumps, water pump and fuel injection pump bodies etc, for the duration. From their point of view, as they already offered this option on their marine range of engines this would not have been too much of a problem – provided they could get the cast iron! From an operating point of view the extra weight must have had a somewhat detrimental effect on fuel economy and performance though. For a few years in the 1980’s a cast iron 5LW languished in the bike shed at West Yorkshire Road Car’s Central Repair Works. Where it came from and where it went to remain two of life’s little mysteries unfortunately. (I was informed by a knowledgeable United CRW fitter some years ago that the cast iron wartime Gardners had one piece cylinder blocks fitted instead of the usual pairs).
Thanks to Chris and Richard for passing on the delightful Bedford and Bristol sound effects and film clips. Wonderful stuff. Just as Chris Y was transported back to ‘Brid’ with the Bedford, I was instantly transported back to the 1960’s, riding on a West Yorkshire Bristol L on service 58 between Bradford and Shipley – only this time I didn’t need to pay! I wish you well with the ‘Old Bus Sounds’ Peter. It should prove very popular, and what a brilliant idea. Can’t wait for the first ‘instalment’!

Brendan Smith


27/01/12 – 06:33

Many thanks, Chris H, for the wonderful Condor link: I’d never seen or heard that running before but the video is as good as being there on the spot. Thanks too to Richard L for the Bristol L link: I’m afraid the bloke with the cap and rucksack, blocking the forward view, is me!
The idea of an Old Bus Sounds page is brilliant. Long live the straight-cut geartooth!

Ian Thompson


27/01/12 – 08:40

Gentlemen, thank you for the very kind comments and Ian, you were enhancing the view, not blocking it! In case anyone was wondering, the route on C2736 was from Bristol Temple Meads along the A4 Bath Road, past the former Colthurst and Harding paint works, Arnos Vale Cemetery gates, the imposing stone building with the tall archway is Brislington Tram Depot (still in fine order and use by Bristol Council, then up the hill to finish just as we arrive at the remains of the entrance to the Bristol Commercial Vehicles Ltd.

I thought that it may be of interest to show the two buses in the clips and also a set of Bedford OB/OWB pictures which I took at the Kemble Steam Fair in August 2008. For those of us delighted by the OB gearbox, on that occasion, it was possible to hear eighteen of them all at once as they did a "convoy" lap! They can be seen at this link.

Richard Leaman


27/01/12 – 08:42

Your comment, Brendan, brought back some very evocative memories of East Parade. Jack Lawrence was a most impressive person. I can’t claim to have known a great many Traffic Managers, but of the ones I ever met, he was in a class apart. He was authoritative and clearly had his fingers firmly, (and intelligently), on the pulse of every aspect of the company’s operations. Gordon Dingle – a lovely man, and I was sad to learn that he has passed on – was at that time in charge of the Charting Department which controlled the loadings for the whole Yorkshire Pool and also the hiring of dozens of independent coaches for WY’s summer Saturday coastal stage carriage operations. Efficient, effective and profitable.
Maidstone & District, (and I repeat my great regard for that company), applied a diametrically opposed policy on their London express services, although in practice they were very similar. Sadly, that policy was dreadfully inefficient in its use of vehicles and was expensive in wages. It was actually difficult even to work out the true operating cost of any of those important services, a situation I couldn’t conceive at WY.
It would be diplomatic to avoid another reference to Southdown here, Brendan. I’m glad you still have a soft spot for them.

Roy Burke


27/01/12 – 14:24

Here are some more Bedford OB sounds – Wonderful ! //www.youtube.com

John Stringer


28/01/12 – 09:08

That’s a brilliant clip, John. I’m just old enough to recall the petrol-engine’d London Transport LT’s with open staircases, which sounded much like these vehicles.
Grossly overloaded in the late-forties, they would pull away with juddery clutch biting and more than the shaky wow-wow sound at low revs. I also drove a petrol-engine’d Austin K6 across Scotland once, which was full of character, but the gearbox was quieter than the Bedford’s, though far from quiet! All that double de-clutching was fun!

Chris Hebbron


28/01/12 – 11:07

I had no idea that wartime Gardner engines were themselves subject to wartime material alteration , so thanks Brendan, for that interesting fact.
Its good to hear also that my external feel for the efficiency of WYRC is borne out in fact by those "in the know"!
I am with you Brendan on that L5g between Bradford and Shipley.

John Whitaker


28/01/12 – 16:23

Hello Roy you are quite right about the name Unique Coaches of Brighton and their stand on Marine Drive, they were painted in a very attractive dark green livery. If my aged memory is right I think their garage was close to Brighton station just down the hill leading down to Old Steine it may have been Trafalgar Street but I am far from certain of that. My recollections date back to the late 50’s early 60’s the fleet at that time included at least one Harrington bodied Bedford SB.

Diesel Dave


10/07/12 – 18:31

Found a shot of Unique Harrington bodied SB3 1800CD on Flickr. Just Google Unique Coaches Brighton and click on Images. Southdown had 2 batches of Commers with similar Harrington bodies (Not one of their better efforts!)
Their depot was in Trafalgar St., and the livery was two shades of green. I believe they later sold out to another local operator ‘Campings’

Roy Nicholson


14/09/12 – 07:28

Just read some of the stories above, Southdown always had a good looking fleet with good maintenance. As a 15/16 year old I worked at the Royal Parade depot in Eastbourne until I came to Australia. I remember Arthur Martin and all the other guys saying then that Southdown had some of the best buses/coaches in the country, nice to see it, 50 years in writing

Deryn Cox


06/12/14 – 06:44

What is the unladen weight of 1948 Bedford OB Coach?? Can it be driven on UK Licence, A, B1, B, BE, as it is Vintage and not used for passenger carrying, just for Showing???

Bradley Borland


06/12/14 – 12:41

The unladen weight of a Bedford OB/Duple Vista coach was 3tons 14cwt.

Chris Hebbron


JCD 371_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


07/04/15 – 07:00

Not a technical question much as I enjoyed reading through all the information and comments about the Southdown Bus Company.
I am now aged 78. As a schoolboy in the late forties/early fifties I lived at Felpham, near Bognor Regis. The Southdown buses that then passed through Felpham were the 31, 50, 50A and 69.
As a boy I remember being told that the 31 then running from Brighton to Portsmouth was the longest bus journey in England that would stop at every Request Stop (if required) during the length of its journey.
I should be pleased to hear if any one can confirm that this was indeed correct.

Ross Sarel


08/04/15 – 06:20

I’d say, Ross, that the 31 from South Parade Pier, Southsea, to Brighton (Marine Parade?) via Worthing would be about 66 miles, but stand corrected. Although not in England, in the late 1950’s, during my National Service, Western SMT had a normal double-deck route which ran from Stranraer to Glasgow, via Ayr Depot, for re-fuelling and toilet break. It was about 85 miles long and took four hours. The longest normal bus route I know of was Midland Red’s X91 service, running twice a day between Leicester and Hereford along the following route: Leicester – Hinckley – Nuneaton – Coventry – Kenilworth – Leamington Spa – Warwick – Stratford-on-Avon – Evesham – Pershore – Worcester – Great Malvern – Malvern Wells – Ledbury – Hereford. It was something over 100 miles long and took 4.5 hours. The ‘X’ prefix really meant long-distance rather than express. We are talking of the 1950’s again. It used normal single-deck buses because of low-bridge problems and was busy enough to warrant duplicate vehicles at popular times.

Chris Hebbron


 

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London Transport – Daimler CWA6 – GXE 578 – D 1

London Transport - Daimler CWA6 - GXE 578 - D1

LPTB D-Class (D1-6) June 1944 - Lower Interior Lower deck facing forward

LPTB D-Class (D1-6) June 1944 - Upper Interior Upper deck facing rearward

LPTB_D1_Rear_1944_rt

London Transport
1944
Daimler CWA6
Duple L27/26R

Daimler CWA6’s D1 to D6 were delivered to Merton Garage in April-May 1944. They had Duple lowbridge bodies which supplemented the austerity STL bodies which had been fitted onto spare STL chassis in 1942/43. There was still a shortage for the 127 route (Merton-South Wimbledon) hence the delivery of the Daimlers. They displaced some lowbridge ST’s from Watford and other lowbridge buses from Godstone which somehow had kept the service going. These, together with D’s 128-131 delivered in late 1945, plodded the same semi-circular 9 mile furrow to termini only 2 miles from each other!  Sometimes, for a treat, they’d be allowed out on the long haul from Morden Station to Epsom for the races (a riding treat for me, too) and sometimes to historic Hampton Court on route 152. They all ended their short lives at the end of 1952, some going to Ceylon, along with some of their big brothers!.
The photographs show front/back views and interior views. The lowbridge layout was conventional for the period, with rows of four seats, without staggering, and an offside sunken gangway, which intruded slightly into the driver’s cab.
I mentioned a while ago the highly-varnished wooden slated seats and the tendency for upstairs passengers to suffer from ‘lateral instability’ around corners! Upholstered seats did not come until around 1948/49, from memory. The position of the rear number plate was unusual on these vehicles, for many austerity buses had them fitted above the window on the nearside rear bulkhead (above the used ticket box), making them invisible from the street! LT soon put them by the offside rear lights as per usual.
It is nice to see photos of one of them in virgin condition, unspoiled by adverts, particularly on the rear upper panel.
My thanks to London Transport Museum for the use of the above shots.

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron


Thank you Chris for a most interesting account of this particular batch of "utility" vehicles. Dreadful though WW2 undeniably was, it necessitated the design and construction of some most characterful buses, many variations of which I was privileged to travel and to work on. These included Daimler CWA6/CWD6, Guy Arab and Bristol K6A – with bodies by Duple, Roe, Park Royal, Pickering to name but a few. Despite the poor materials which blighted many of these vehicles they performed a heroic service, many having long and distinguished careers even into the 1960s. My close associates often sigh, good naturedly I think and hope, at my hero worship of these historic buses – especially the one hundred "Sutton HGFs" D182 – 281, even though they were to relaxed specification and were delivered in 1946 they were still commendable and fascinating "utilities" as far as I’m concerned.

Chris Youhill


I agree, Chris, that the vehicles had character and even simplicity, plainness if you like, has a certain attractiveness, if you understand my meaning. What always amazed me was, that in the situation of total war, each body builder was permitted to design its own style within the ‘utility’ specification laid down. Fascinating from a bus enthusiast’s point of view, but a wasteful duplication of manpower! As for the Sutton Daimlers, the one aesthetic let-down was the rear three-piece destination display, which looked as if it had been a last-minute pop-riveted afterthought and in perpetual risk of falling off! It probably was, and was!
A further look at D1’s lean-back, but ramrod straight front, above, makes me recall the frontal look of the very rare 1932 Birch body. I have seen a photo of one somewhere and will try to find and upload it.

Chris Hebbron


As you rightly say, Chris, the variations in designs within the "utility" specification were fascinating. The first two Duples that we had at Samuel Ledgard’s, also in 1944, were the exact highbridge equivalent of D1. I think that the slightly later Duple bodies were possibly the most handsome and smoothest of line of the real "utilities", and surely the Pickering offering from the North East must have been the most ghastly in appearance and poor construction. I quite agree that the ludicrous rear destination assembly on the 1946 "HGFs" was unforgiveable – and all to inform would be passengers in great detail which bus they had missed!! In all twenty two of the Ledgard vehicles these abominations were removed and immaculately panelled over before entering service. Seven of the batch were also fitted with platform doors and emergency exits of the most professional appearance. Stop me now before I go on for pages about a most intriguing series of buses !!

Chris Youhill


I suppose these are tram seats, but trams don’t roll! The question is indeed "why bother?" when there is a limit to what you can save. The interiors are still lined: but there are no headlamps & only one (two?) drain out of the upper deck needing a moulding to keep the contents off the platform: & it is fixed together a bit like a Leyland National (! for the same reasons?)- fair enough but not shattering: I suppose then it was a departure from traditional coach building….. but two questions: what is in the windows & is that just a void round the radiator? You presumably didn’t need to follow the old custom of leaving the engine access open in hot weather! I have never seen an "original" utility bus, so these photos are helpful.

Joe


Hi Joe. It’s true that wooden latted seats were widely used on trams, but I guess their construction was cheaper, simpler and lent itself more to mass production than upholstered seats. I can certainly remember them on utility trolleybuses of Nottingham City Transport. Same goes for the rear dome construction which was produced from flat metal sections, so that formation of complex curves was not necessary. Many of the features were intended to reduce the production man-hours needed as well as the costs. Actually the bus does have headlights, but they are small and fitted with blackout cowels giving only a very feeble light beam ahead. You will notice that the interior lights are also dimmed with a blue cover. The windows (in London at least) were encased in a close weave netting to prevent splintering in case of bomb blasts nearby. This let the light in but made the windows opaque – hence the small diamonds of clear glass in the centre. The use of white handrails (also white tips to the mudguards and probably the white spot on the rear) were intended as an aid to sight during the blackout.

Stephen Ford


The slatted seats were new, made for these buses., but upstairs tram seats could be wooden, but were constructed to have reversible backs.
Trams DO roll, Joe, or, in fact, corkscrew, especially if they ran only on four wheels and not trucks (on trains called bogies). The action was very strange and conducive to small children throwing up!
It is not clear from the photos, but the design of austerity bus bodies ensured that they could be built with unskilled labour. The bodywork had no curves worth mentioning, obviating panel-beating (look at the rear of the roof, called lobster–style which was flat steel cut then curved round at the end and just welded). They only had single skins (so you could see the body ribs inside, and only single-skin roofs (sometimes the ribs were inside, sometimes outside), but, worst of all, they were generally built with steel sheeting and unseasoned wood of uncertain origin (ash was the usual pre-war wood used) ensuring rust problems and the wood framing literally turning to dust after around seven years. Even then, some bodybuilders had their pride and rejected some of the totally unsuitable wood they were given to work with! London Transport started a programme of re-building the bodies around 1948/9 and gave up halfway through, because of the time and expense. Although hard to see, the bus does have headlights, very tiny and black painted (the offside one is below the cab vent). There is no void around the radiator, there was a chicken-style wire grill inside the steel radiator framework. The engine had the usual side cover, which was usually in proper position on these buses and not leaning on the wing! The Daimler chassis were simplified versions of the pre-war model, but were quite robust and sophisticated. Most utility buses of the era had chassis which long outlasted the bodies. They went on until rendered obsolete more because of their out dated halfcab style and ponderous road performance in the 1960’s than for mechanical shortcomings. In their day, despite steel being used rather than aluminium, the stripped-out bodywork was usually the same weight as pre-war buses. From the above photos, you’ll see that the only touch of luxury was the patterned material covering the front downstairs bulkhead!
Finally, you mention the windows and I assume you mean the diamond shapes. This was anti-blast netting attached to the inside of the non-opening windows and lower glass of the few opening ones – two each deck! The diamond section allowed passengers to see out. The netting was not not universal throughout the UK – much depending on the risk of bombing where the bus operated.

Chris Hebbron


The white spot on the rear, Stephen, is an interesting point. It seemed unique to London Transport and I’ve seen it mentioned that it was an aid to trolleybus drivers in that they knew they could overtake a bus with a spot: to do so on one without was to court disaster!! There’s a logic to this theory, but whether it’s true……!

Chris Hebbron


The "trolleybus assistance" theory is an interesting one Chris, and feasible too, but I think that the more likely answer is that the white spots were a general aid to visibility in the WW2 blackout. I’ve had a quick look at the prewar "STLs" and there isn’t a white spot to be seen when they were nearly new, but plenty in the chapter about the War period.

Chris Youhill


I think Chris Youhill is right about the spot – but I arrived over seven years after VE and VJ days, so what do I know?

David Oldfield


Duple really were a class act weren’t they? Even with the constraints of the utility specification they managed to make them look refined in an un-fussy "Puritanical" sort of way. Even the lobster-back canopy is tidily done. And not many manufacturers bothered to put radiused windows in the rear emergency door. This really softens what might otherwise be a rather savage design. The Barton’s specimens I used to ride on were similar, but must have come a bit later, since they had upholstered seats and "peacetime" rear canopies – although of course, Barton’s did have a penchant for rebuilding, modifying and generally tinkering with their rolling stock!

Stephen Ford


London Transport never actually ordered any Duple bodies for their chassis (most, pre-war, were built by them at Chiswick, anyway). But they had inherited 50 Duple-bodied Green Line coaches from LGOC, so had some experience and Duple was third on their preferred list of body suppliers in the war, maybe because they were a London company (Park Royal, I suspect, was first)! They had a good reputation, pre-war, too. When they required another three lowbridge Daimlers for the same 127 route above, delivered in November 1945, they’d managed to wangle Duple to be the bodybuilders again, even though Massey were the only firm making such bodies by then! Apart from the aforesaid 7 D’s, there were a further 104 highbridge ones, 20 B’s (Bristols) and a solitary G (Guy)!
As an aside, Chris Youhill commented on the ugliness and flimsiness of Pickering austerity bodies – has anyone got a photo of one of them they could upload, assuming the bodies lasted long enough for a photo opportunity!

Chris Hebbron


DaimlercloseupThanks for all the feedback. I’ve found the headlamps and realised that the top deck ceiling is the roof (like Midland Red?): the white circle is clearly the thing to aim your single ( ie dipped) headlamp at in the smog: and smog it would have been upstairs with one side window….. but I’m still baffled why the body doesn’t touch the radiator (?): and was the Leyland National the natural heir of this construction system?

Joe


JUA 763_lr

In reply to Chris Hebbron’s latest message, could you please if possible include this picture of Samuel Ledgard Otley depot Pickering bodied JUA 763. Its a good illustration of how ghastly, inexcusable even under the Fheurer’s tyranny, the Pickering offerings were.

Chris Youhill


The discussion about wooden seats was interesting. I believe that Aberdare Corporation until quite modern times specified wooden seats because they carried a lot of coal miners who would have probably soiled moquette seating. Also the now defunct operator Jolly of South Hylton in County Durham had a batch of bus bodied Duple Dominants and they had a rear wooden seat to counteract vandalism.

Philip Carlton


Daimler RadI can answer the Daimler radiator mystery, Joe. As with many buses with radiators, the gap between radiator and body was filled by some sort of rubber composite material to keep damp and dirt out. When the D’s were re-painted and overhauled, the radiators and seals were changed from black to red, as my photo demonstrates. One oddity about this photo is that it is the only D I’ve ever seen with mansized headlamps and looking the better for it!.

Chris Hebbron


Thanks, Chris, for letting me and others see the Pickering offering. The product could have done little to lift morale and possibly even lowered it! Mind you, I’ve seen photos of the enemy’s efforts with Berlin’s double deckers in the inter-war years and they weren’t far removed from the style of the Karrier CL6 body I published here some months ago!
I assume the Ledgard bus is a Guy Arab II, but it certainly hasn’t got Guy’s extended front wings, certainly not the nearside one, anyway. Intriguing.

Chris Hebbron


I know what you mean about the Pickering, but I guess in the war beggars couldn’t be choosers. And, as a colleague used to say, when you’re tired after work a third class ride beats a first class walk any day! For much of the duration the last buses in many cities ran at 9.00 (to save fuel and maybe let crews get home before the bombs started falling in earnest). Late workers in essential industries had passes allowing them to jump the (long) queues which didn’t stand a chance of all fitting on these last buses.

Stephen Ford


Not heard that saying before, Stephen, but my son used to say (in relation to the crude but successful Russian T34 tank in WWII) ‘Quantity has a quality of its own" which equally applies to these wartime saviours and stalwarts. And it the dark days of the war, 1942-43, there was an edict to save a further 25% on fuel and tyres. This is when bus companies ran buses into cities in the morning rush-hour, where they remained parked until returning to the suburbs in the evening. Drivers and conductors took the remaining buses home, then taking up duty again for the return journey. In London, there were rows and rows of them all over Central London, even in the Royal Parks.

Chris Hebbron


Chris H is quite right in assuming that the Guy JUA 763 was an Arab 11 and its missing outswept mudguard – from time to time – was a source of mystery. Of course we could have asked at the time I suppose but didn’t. Incredibly however the elusive elegant fitting suddenly appeared years later on ex United Bristol K GHN 840 – which made that vehicle look as odd so equipped as the Guy did having lost it !!

Chris Youhill


Thanks for the radiator pic, Chris- yes I now see the shrouding on the original: examples I have seen in the early 60’s were leather & looked very naff. The cleaned up painted version is very smart & neat- notice too the neat bracket added for the jumbo headlamp. What does the badge say? LT?

Joe


Chris Y – Thx for the ‘wing’ story – it’s amazing what engineers put away for a rainy day, just in case! And, in connexion with Pickering’s unattractiveness, I always felt that LT’s least attractive recipient was the Massey version. BTW – Where was Pickering’s factory?

Joe – The badge said ‘London Transport’ and was never that secure on these radiators, which weren’t designed to take anything; a fluted radiator top was considered enough for Daimler cars and buses! Interestingly, I notice that D1 above has not yet been fitted with the plate. I suspect it is still at Chiswick, where it would have been delivered to. The Green Line D’s never bore them and the Guys seemed to be 50/50. Amazing that time was wasted on such frills in a time of National Emergency!

Chris Hebbron


How fascinating to read about D1-6.
They seem identical to the Bradford ones which I remember well, including the Upper Deck "lateral instability". The photo brings it all back!!
In Bradford, these buses were regarded with total disrespect, being nicknamed "pig troughs" or "Flat Harriets", but they always appealed to me, being a utility admirer.
Duple bodies were probably amongst the best, as far as I can see, and were probably helped by the "V" strip against the canopy on the n/s. There was something very distinctive about the "shell back" dome which worked with, rather than against the overall look of the body, and , when "normal" domes reappeared in 1945, the body lost some of its appeal for me. Duple utility bodies could keep me going for hours. I also well remember the Ledgard ones, although memories of the HGFs seem to predominate there!

John Whitaker


Chris H – I believe the Pickering factory was at Wishaw in Scotland and will check as soon as I have chance.

Chris Youhill


Pretty sure the Pickering factory was at Wishaw. Tram literature quotes Wishaw as the place where Pickering built the Aberdeen streamliners

John Whitaker


Yes, I’m sure that the Pickering factory was in Wishaw, Lanarkshire in Scotland, from what I’ve heard and read over the years.
The Ministry of War Transport (I think that’s the correct title) was responsible for allocating both chassis and body builders to operator’s applications for new buses. The intention was that Pickerings would deliver their products to operators in Scotland and northern England. Apparently one Midlands municpallity (was it Derby?) had heard that Pickering bodies were "fragile" and refused them. As a result two Pickering-bodied Guy Arabs ended up with Brighton Hove & District on the south coast! As non-standard to that fleet, they were sold or transferred after the war (c.1948?) to Western / Southern National, where I think they operated out of Plymouth for a few years.
I believe most of Pickerings bus work pre-war went to Glasgow Corporation, and I have a vague memory that their main occupation was as a builder of railway wagons. Were they more successful in that role than in bus work?

Michael Hampton


The question about the white disc on the back of vehicles is mentioned in "London Transport in the Blitz" by Michael H C Baker. I understand that motor buses had the disc painted on the rear panel but trolleybuses were distinguished by carrying LT’s trolleybus bulls eye motif there (which was the standard bar and circle device superimposed with a ‘T’ and with the word "Trolleybus" on the bar). In later years the trolleybus motif was moved to the rear window to permit the rear panel to be used for advertising.

Trevor Haynes


Thanks for your comment, Michael. What Michael Baker wrote is my understanding of the situation. I’ve never heard of or read the book, incidentally, but must try and get a copy now! The ‘T’ motif was not a war characteristic, unlike the white disc Strangely, however, overhauled buses were still leaving Chiswick with the disc painted, for some months after VE Day.

Chris Hebbron


22/10/11 – 17:36

I’ve just found your website/blog/W.H.Y. and of course find it fascinating. Some of you chaps have great depth of knowledge – and these forums can only increase it, I guess!
I have a few pics taken as a spotterlad and if I can find a way to do it, I’ll attach a shot of ex-L.T. D74 working in Leicestershire for Brown’s Blue of Markfield, which firm I believe ferried coal miners of the region to their daily toil. BB had as I recall, D 19, 161, 165, 169, 179 and 74 and may have had at least one ex-East Kent Daimler, too.
OK now I’ve found the advice on how to forward photos, so I’ll get on with it!

Victor Brumby


24/10/11 – 17:39

When my interest in `Bus Spotting` started, in the early 1950’s, our local service was route 151 that included Morden Station and Reynolds Close, Hackbridge. My lasting memory is the service used D models. At our local stop (we called it The Circle at Carshalton) we did however prefer to wait for the new RT to return from Reynolds Close to ride on the newer bus to Morden. In what I have read recently it seems the D’s did not run route 151 as my aging memory thinks. Is it possible the D’s were only `loaned` to route 151 at times? If not, can anyone tell me what type of bus was on route 151 before RT’s took over?

Derek Hanlon


25/10/11 – 07:14

Your memory is not at fault, Derek. The original 151 route started in 1949, running from Morden Stn to Hackbridge. Vehicles were supplied solely from Sutton Garage, which, at this time, had an entire allocation of 100 ‘relaxed’ style D’s in the D182-281 series. The last of the D’s went in 1954, replaced by RT’s.
I lived in Morden until 1956 and only recall D’s on the route, although I remember seeing earlier D’s on there once or twice, presumably on loan from nearby Merton Garage.

Chris Hebbron


26/10/11 – 05:44

Thanks for that Chris. Its nice to have confirmation that the old memory still works. Having now found your (extremely good and worthwhile) site I expect I shall have a few more requests sometime. Thanks.

Derek Hanlon


01/08/13 – 06:46

I have only recently found this site and have Noticed that two of the people who use the site Chris Hebbron and Chris Youhill remember the Daimlers from Sutton and Merton Garages. Before I went into the R.A.F. in 1953 I was a Garage Youth at Sutton garage, basically a Junior Mechanic. At the time we not only had the Daimlers but also the single deck A.E.C Renown buses known as Scooters. On Saturdays we borrowed single deck vehicles from other garages, one of which was Sidcup to supplement our service 213 to Kingston. The Scooters were replaced by the R.F. Although we boys were not allowed to drive round the garage we were often asked by the mechanics to move buses, so we did and to get different types such as Qs and 10t10s was a bonus. Like other contributors I loved the Daimlers and disappointed that most went to Ceylon and none were preserved. With regards to the route 151. I later drove from Merton Garage and the 151 was one of my regular routes, but with an R.T. It is correct that Sutton, in the 1950s did run that route. I hope this is of some interest.

Brian Blackburn


LPTB_D1_Front_1944_rt Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


31/01/14 – 13:10

The white spot controversy!

LPTB_D1_Rear_1944_rt

Definitely only motor buses carried it, both double deck and single deck. The theory about trolleybus drivers being able to understand that they could overtake a white spot motor bus is reinforced by the fact that the Trolleybus symbol was moved from the lower rear panel to the rear lower saloon window during the war (not afterwards) from its previous position. This had nothing to do with lower panel advertising as suggested, as pre-war the symbol was very low down on the left and there was plenty of room for advertising above it and many trolleys had such advertising pre war. The adverts that were missing pre war on trolleys were those either side of the destination blinds between decks but why this was so seems to be a complete mystery as they were fitted post war with no problem.

Gordon Mackley


 

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Smiths Luxury Coaches – Dennis Lancet J3 – KXX 329

Smiths Luxury Coaches - Dennis Lancet J3 - KXX 329
Photograph by Graham Low

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
Dennis Lancet J3
1947-50
Duple C35F

I read with great interest Frank and Derrick’s notes on the Dennises run by Prestwells of Woodhouse Eaves. Unfortunately I’ve no info that might help, but here’s a Dennis Lancet J3 of about 1950 run by Smith’s of Reading until about 1964. The photo is by Graham Low, who incidentally contributed many of the illustrations to Paul Lacey’s book "Thames Valley 1946-1960".
Having always found buses more interesting than coaches I regrettably never noted the registrations of Smith’s Lancets, many of which had been bought in from other operators. By the mid sixties they were relegated to occasional contract duties, their place in the front shed having been usurped by nice AEC Reliances and horrible Super Vega-bodied Bedford SBs. 
For single-deck runs on the AWRE Aldermaston contract the office would say "Take one of the spare Bedfords" but I occasionally managed to persuade them to let me take a Lancet, and what a pleasure it always was!—though the other younger drivers didn’t agree.
In Classic Bus Aug-Sept 1999 there’s an amusing account of the challenges posed by the Dennis Lancet. You don’t sit over the pedals, but more behind them as in a car. The bonnet is admittedly high, but visibility is still good. First and second gears are to the right, third and fourth to the left, and for fifth leave the lever in fourth position but push it left towards the engine against a stiffish spring and then forward. Ease off the throttle and as the revs die back fifth engages itself noiselessly, and to return to fourth release the throttle for a moment, give her 44% more revs and again the take-up is smooth and silent. In contrast to this luxury the rest of the box (sliding mesh for all except fourth) is fairly unforgiving.
The Dennis O6 engine, direct-injection with 4 valves per cylinder, is quiet, practically vibration-less and very free-revving, but not a low-revs slogger, so hill-start clutch control can be tricky.
The steering seems rather low-geared, but is light, extremely positive and—unlike that of some AEC Reliances—dead stable. The brakes are perfectly adequate. The whole vehicle inspires confidence in the driver, and I don’t think the passengers ever complained either.
One Smith’s Lancet J3 registration KJH 900 was bought for trolleybus towing by the very active preservationist Tony Belton. I’ve heard it may survive somewhere. It has come to light whilst doing this posting that the above vehicle was in fact KXX 329 and came from Clarkes Luxury Coaches, London E16, in about 1951-2

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Thompson

———

It’s interesting that Dennis were never mainstream but always managed to have a mainstream following – even in the ’50s.
Considerable numbers of Lancet IIIs had full and productive lives with Yorkshire Traction and East Kent – let alone with their biggest fan, Aldershot and District.
Was I dreaming – or did Smith’s eventually become Horseman Coaches of Reading?

David Oldfield

———

Yes, David; Smith’s did become Horseman. The old blue and orange livery gave way to white. I’m hoping to get more details of the takeover soon. The Lancet J3 was so well made that I’m sure many of them would have had even fuller lives had one-man operation not demanded front entrance and so the disappearance of the halfcab. Interesting that the underfloor Lancet attracted so few customers and that A&D in particular turned their backs on it. I’ve never driven one, but 3 possible explanations come to mind:
a) Did the 8-litre version of the Dennis O6 engine work less well lying down than standing up? Piston wear problems? Only a guess…
b) Was the sound of the mid-mounted engine too subdued for the driver to judge revs accurately enough for clean gear changing?
c) Were the mechanical losses incurred by the double-reduction rear axle reflected in noticeably higher fuel consumption?

Ian Thompson

———

Getting very technical here, Ian, but everything you say makes sense. The AH590 was not the AV590 and the vertical and horizontal 0.600 were not strictly the same engine. Dennis were always small and probably didn’t have the money to throw at solving problems of turning an engine on its side. [Even Volvo had to use government money. They piggy-backed development of B58 with horizontal engine on a government contract for military vehicles with similar layout. Otherwise Volvo may have been in with horizontal engines later than they were.] I’m no expert on early Dennises, but it was reported that the 06 was very smooth. As for the fuel consumption, if all else were right, people would perhaps have persevered. I heard that K4 Lances suffered twisted chassis at A&D, but I don’t know whether this was universal.
At least they gave the general populous a Lodekker.

David Oldfield

———

Only very few horizontal O6 Dennis engines were 8 litres and with this engine there were reported problems of bearing failures from Glentons. The engine power was increased from the vertical engine by increasing the allowable revs and I am thinking that Glentons (on tour work) probably used this to advantage for long periods. The 7.6 litre horizontal engine does not seem to carry this stigma.
All the horizontal engines differed from the vertical models – an oil way was drilled up the connecting rod to supply extra oil to the piston bores. I have often wondered if this was excessive and it robbed the bearing supply.

Nick Webster

———

18/03/11 – 16:13

I was based at RAF White Waltham, 1963 – 1967, and regularly used Smiths of Reading for Wednesday afternoon football fixtures. More importantly, Smiths had a daily contract to ferry our lovely WRAF personnel from RAF Shinfield Park where they were billeted, to RAF White Waltham, where they worked. The usual driver for this daily run was a veritable Mr Banks, who was 70 at the time, drove like a mad thing, and read my wife’s (to be) newspaper whilst driving if she sat near the front. Rumour has it that other, younger drivers were terrified of standing in for Mr Banks if he was away, as he would seek feedback on their behaviour and driving on his return.
Sorry, this isn’t a technical item, but it might add a bit of whimsical history.
Now, if anyone has a photograph of Mr Banks, with or without coach and WRAF beauties, that would be worth seeing.

Doug Adams

———

26/04/11 – 07:19

I left school in 1955, and started work at Smith Coaches in the engine shop with Bill Collins, and after coming out of the Army in 1964 I returned, passed my PSV and worked with them until 1970. Having driven all types of buses "AEC/Leyland and ex London RT’s", working in the garage with Nobby Early, Coaches on Contract duties, and Coastal Services, Continental Tours with Eric Mills, I now find it hard to believe that the largest one man operator, with a fleet of approx 120 vehicles I now find little trace that they ever existed. Mr Alf Smith was once Mayor of Reading

Pete Brant

———

27/04/11 – 07:13

Good to read Pete Brant’s comment. I’m glad to say, Pete, that some of the old hands are still around. Sadly, it was Charlie Heath’s recent funeral that brought some of us together: I met Bunny Austin, Pete Smyth, Ron Shackleford (still working part-time for Horseman, Jim Foster and (though I didn’t get a chance to talk to him) Bert Newman. I think we ought to have annual reunions! Very few Smith’s buses have survived: Ron S.’s Reliance, under cover at a museum east of Reading, is the only one I know of. I heard the other day that Dennis Lancet KJH 900, used for years as a towing wagon for preserved trolleybuses, hasn’t made it.
So the vehicles have all but gone and Rose Kiln Lane depot is built over, but–thank Heaven–some familiar faces are still around and Graham Low of Wokingham has plenty of photographs that he very foresightfully took in the 50s and 60s. Bunny Austin too has a collection of on-tour photos and apparently Jim Foster even has some cine-film.

Ian Thompson

———

27/04/11 – 07:19

Hi Ian I also remembered the Rhonda Regents,the only vehicle you could bring up Southampton Street in top gear, due to low ratio gearbox, also was fitted with exhaust brake. Do you remember the old "ex Leeds Leyland JUG" we used on the Crowthorn Road Reserch contract during the construction.

Pete Brant

———

01/05/11 – 09:25

Smiths Luxury Coaches JUG 624

Smiths Luxury Coaches JDP 519

A couple of photos in connection with Pete Brant’s comment on Smith’s of Reading. JUG 624 (1946 Leeds PD1 but with 1945 chassis number) stands in St Mary’s Butts and JDP 519 (new to Smiths in 1953) which I used a lot when not on double-deck contracts, is in the yard, with one of the prewar London RTs in the background. Two JUGs (the numbers escape me) were always used on the "Paddy Run" to Crowthorne and were white with dust inside from the clothes of the always good-humoured Irish labourers, who’d regale each other with wonderful tales in the tradition of the roving story-tellers of rural Ireland. There was a stop on the way back at the Jack of Both Sides at Cemetery Junction, but in the n/s mirror you could always see a handful of thirsty chaps leaping off the platform well before you reached the pub. I worked this enjoyable run quite a lot, mostly with the late Mike Dare, who co-founded the Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum.
You mention the good hill-climbing of the Rhondda Regent IIIs, Pete. I wonder whether that was also because of the 9.6-litre engine and lightweight bodywork?
Len Ledger was the driver and guardian of London RT FXT 229, and you had to be on your best behaviour to be allowed to drive it!

Ian Thompson

———

04/05/11 – 07:10

So many wonderful memories Ian, on many occasions I was privileged to drive Lens RT with the coconut matting on the cab floor for those dirty people that didn’t remove their shoes before entering the cab. I was so sorry to hear of Charlie Heaths passing, glad to hear Ron Shack is still doing a bit, Tell him "Herman the German was asking after him. Do you know if Mick Smith "the Govenor’s Son" is still with us,? I last saw Keith Aplin at Horsemans a few days before he retired.

Pete Brant

———

KXX 329_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

———

17/05/11 – 11:18

It was wonderful to read your comments about Smith Coaches. My father is Jim Avenell who is still with us at 80yrs young. I spent my childhood either down the yard or out in the coach with my father during the early to mid sixties and in the social club between runs lol, I was always there. Saturday mornings would be spent emptying the ash trays and polishing them with Duraglit while dad was on the wash in his wellies doing the outside, we’d then go up to the canteen for a cuppa and I would sit in ore listening to all the guys talking and joking around, the room full of smoke from woodbines and parkdrive, plenty of tea. Then back down to the wash and polish the body trims, oh I loved it.
We used to keep a pony on the grass behind the social club and people would feed it beer and crisps through the window, never forgetting the Christmas parties for us kids, Happy days sitting up front going to Harwell sitting in the shed on site, or going to Abingdon cattle market. One day we bought a dozen chicken and brought them back to Reading in the boot lol Oh so many stories. I have amassed a couple of hundred photos over the years and always looking for more or any thing related. Some of the guys I remember were great, guys like Robby Curtis, Ron Shack of course, Dave doe, Jack Pit, Reggy Summerfield,Grover,Steel,Kenny Haywood,Punchy Parsons,Chris Denton,Mick Goslin, Pete Fisher, Morri Hood, Ceral Gollop, Ropper, Dave Reed, Gorge Forman, Alf, Michal and Jacky Smith. Im sure I could think of more. So many good memories and all that’s left is the row of conifers that lined the wash.
I myself later drove for Horsemans briefly before getting my class one HGV, Later to become an HGV driving assessor, so I guess you could say its in the blood and the seeds where sown down at Smiths Luxury Coaches.

Paul Avenell

———

17/06/11 – 09:00

Response to Paul Avenell.
Paul does your great collection of photographs contain any of the veritable Mr Banks? When your Dad was approx. 30, Mr B. was 70 (but still driving for Smiths), perhaps he might remember him. In any case, very best wishes,

Doug Adams

———

24/02/12 – 07:15

9797 DP a Val 14 Duple is still with us!

Anon


 

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