Lytham St Annes Corporation
1937
Leyland Titan TD4c
Leyland FH30/24R

The Leyland Titan TD4 replaced the TD3 in production from 1935, differing from its predecessor fundamentally only in the replacement of the three servo vacuum braking system by vacuum/hydraulic operation. The Lysholm Smith torque converter, designed in 1928, was quite popular in the TD3c ‘Gearless Bus’ chassis, the ‘c’ suffix denoting the converter, and remained a transmission option for the TD4. In 1935 Lytham St Annes Corporation took three Leyland Lion LT7c vehicles with torque converters, and all the 1936/37 deliveries, totalling 22 buses, of Lions and Titans, had the converter transmission. These, however, were the last torque converter buses to be received by Lytham St Annes. BTF 25, No. 45, is a Leyland Titan TD4c delivered in March 1937 with a Leyland full fronted FH30/24R body. Unlike the full fronted centre entrance Titans in the fleet of its near neighbour to the north, Blackpool, the Lytham St Annes buses had exposed radiators and rear entrances. In later years some were converted to open top, but number 45 survived intact into preservation. It is pictured at South Croydon on its way to Brighton during the May 1972 HCVC Rally. It is currently undergoing extensive restoration. This is one of only two surviving ’Gearless Buses’, the other being BTB 928, Lytham St Annes No. 34, a 1936 Leyland Lion LT7c.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/04/22 – 08:07

Interesting post, Roger. I imagine that the sudden burst of interest in buying Leyland Gearless buses was the closure of their tramway system between 1936 and 1937, thereby easing the tram drivers’ transfer to buses. Many a municipal transport entity did this, but Portsmouth Corporation was late in doing so, buying Crossleys so fitted post-war, when the trams had gone in 1937! They so liked them, that they were converted with Leyland TD4 engines and gearboxes late in their lives! The Crossleys had, if memory serves, Brockhouse converters, which involved the engines rising to their governors to pull away and accelerate and coasting along to the next bus stop!

Chris Hebbron

13/04/22 – 12:58

As you say, Chris, all of Portsmouth’s 31 post-war Crossleys had turbo-transmitters from new, until the late 1950’s when the engines and transmissions from withdrawn TD4s were substituted. Interestingly, though, only two of Portsmouth’s 46 pre-war Leyland TD4s were delivered with torque convertors, both new in 1935. Therese were Nos 126 [EEC body] and 130 [Leyland vee-front body]. Both had this transmission replaced with normal gearbox transmission in 1947. It’s possible Leyland had a replacement programme in place at about that time, as I have read of various municipalities and companies who replaced torque convertor transmission with standard gearbox in the period 1946-47.

Michael Hampton

14/04/22 – 08:17

You have to wonder why they converted 126 and 130 from turbo converters to normal gearboxes in 1947, then purchased a whole batch of Crossleys with turbo converters in 1948/49. Was it around that time that there was a change of General Manager, a thought in the back of my head?

Chris Hebbron

16/04/22 – 08:05

Chris Hebbron mentions the change of Manager at Lytham.
Here are the dates
J.C. Fairchild 1929 – 1946
W. Ashton 1946 – 1954
I hope that helps?

Stephen Howarth

19/04/22 – 06:16

There was no change of Portsmouth manager until 1951, when H C Simmonds took over from Ben Hall. Mr Hall had been manager for many years, and would have been in charge of the ordering of all the pre-war Leyland Titans, and the post-war Leylands and Crossleys. He would also have dealt with the replacement transmissions of the TD4c’s 126/130.
Mr Hall was very pleased with the pre-war Crossley Condors, and I have seen a photo of a visit made by a Crossley rep to Portsmouth c.1945 to receive his congratulations on the lengthy service of these diesel-engined vehicles. Perhaps the reputation and sales pitch was sufficient for the post-war order to be placed. After all, Crossley’s war-time demonstrator had been well received in several places [although it’s not recorded to have visited Portsmouth], and it was only later that the Crossley company messed things up by not proceeding with the patent rights on the engine design.

Michael Hampton

Wigan Corporation
1932
Leyland Tiger TS4
Santus B32R

This picture of Wigan No.81 was taken on a dismal day in Brighton in May 1969 during the HCVC Rally. It shows a Leyland Tiger TS4 with locally Wigan built Santus B32R body delivered in October 1932. It has been established that the peculiarly Wigan name of Santus did not indicate a link between the coachbuilder and the confectionery manufacturer – see comments on this OBP page:- www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?
The TS4 appeared in 1931 to compete with the AEC Regal, ironically designed by John Rackham who had created the Titan and Tiger models before migrating to Southall. It had a more robust chassis with a larger engine than the TS3, a new ‘silent third’ gearbox, a fully floating rear axle and triple servo brakes. In this 1969 picture EK 8867 is wearing a very faded Wigan livery which must surely be the one it wore upon withdrawal some time earlier, whenever that was – I have no Wigan fleetlist. It is now in proper preservation.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

15/02/22 – 05:48

More than anything, this photo shews how bodywork progressed in the seven or so years after 1931! What on earth was a ‘silent third’ gear: no screaming, or some sort of synchromesh device?

Chris Hebbron

16/02/22 – 06:26

The Leyland Tiger TS1, 2 and 3 versions were fundamentally the same chassis differing only in overall length and wheelbase. The TS4 was the single deck equivalent of the Titan TD2 and shared the same engine and transmission specifications. The four speed sliding mesh gearbox of the earlier models was replaced by one in which third speed was in constant mesh with helical cut gears giving a much quieter sound output, hence the ‘silent third’. This gearbox was subsequently employed in all standard Tigers and Titans up to the TS11 and TD7. Wigan No. 81 was delivered in October 1932 when Leyland’s initial diesel engine of 8.1 litres was only just being produced in quantity, and most of these went into Titans, so it almost certainly began service with the 7.6 litre petrol engine. The fact that it was still wearing its Wigan livery, albeit much faded, in 1969 suggests that it may well have been converted to diesel power during its period of service with the Corporation. The Leyland oil engine, later increased in capacity to 8.6 litres, was closely based upon the petrol unit, both being of overhead camshaft layout, and the compact design, unlike competing AEC and Gardner offerings, meant that it would fit within the same bonnet length as the petrol engine.

Roger Cox

05/03/22 – 06:24

A belated thx, Roger, for your comprehensive reply.

Chris Hebbron

Grayline Bicester
1969
Bristol LHL6L
Plaxton C53F

Photographed during the British Coach Rally of 1970, UBW 625H was one of two Bristol LHL6L coaches bought by Grayline of Bicester. According to BLOTW, 174 examples were constructed of the LHL6L, the extended version of the LH for 36ft long bodywork, though eleven were fitted with specialist van bodies. Of the remaining 163, all received Plaxton coach bodies except for two that were bodied by Duple. The LH6L was powered by the Leyland O400 engine which was fitted to the majority of LH and LHS orders, the alternative being the Perkins H6.354. No examples of the LHL had the raucous (I speak from experience) Perkins engine, but the Leyland power unit was no paragon of quietness either. Apart from the London Transport deliveries that had either six speed manual or automatic gearboxes, the standard fitment was the Turner Clarke five speed synchromesh. At least one, KRE 345K, had a semi auto gearbox, but this might have been retro fitted. The O400 engine proved to be of suspect reliability and was supplanted by the O401 in the last production LH variants. The LH, and the short LHS in particular, soon gained reputations for bad riding, which might well have been ameliorated in the longer LHL, though no variants of the LH model were regarded as being among Bristol’s most reliable or inspired engineering achievements. UBW 625H was delivered to Grayline in August 1969, its stablemate UBW 626H arriving in the following month. Both had Plaxton C53F bodywork. UBW 625H passed from Bicester to the Gosport arm of Grayline, formerly Hutfields, in December1970 and was sold by Grayline in September 1974 to Eagle Coaches of Bristol.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

31/01/22 – 06:19

According to the PSV Circle Bristol LH chassis list, there was one LHL fitted with a Perkins engine – YMD990H supplied to Wilder, Feltham (chassis LHL-143). Whether that is correct, I am not sure – Wilder purchased several LH models, with a mix of Leyland and Prerkins engines.
Chassis LHL-168 had a Leyland engine and a Plaxton body, but it was a Derwent bus body, B55F, for Coity Motors (ATG459H).
Chassis LHL-206 is shown as having a Plaxton DP49F body, for the Irish Army, but I have never seen a photograph of this vehicle, so I am not sure of the body style.
Roger also says: "Apart from the London Transport deliveries that had either six speed manual or automatic gearboxes, the standard fitment was the Turner Clarke five speed synchromesh." London Transport did not have any LHL chassis, only LH and LHS models. As I understand it some LH models for NBC subsidiaries were fitted with semi-automatic gearboxes – Midland General and United Counties, as far as I am aware. I believe that the first 6 vehicles supplied to Bristol OC were also fitted with semi-automatic boxes. However, the PSV Circle book only mentions the LT vehicles, as per Roger’s comment.

Nigel Frampton

01/02/22 – 09:21

Sorry if my text was unclear, Nigel, but my comment about transmissions was meant to cover all the LH variants, not just the long version. I did not know that some of the LH/LHS deliveries to NBC had semi auto boxes. Certainly London Country for whom I worked in an admin capacity had synchromesh boxes in their LH buses, though I think that they were four speeders, and one might have expected LCBS to have taken semi auto if that option had been available. I do recall the engineering department expressing general dissatisfaction with the LH model, and particularly with the synchro boxes, though the latter may well have arisen from the unfamiliarity of most LCBS drivers with manual transmissions. As for some LHL coach operators specifying the Perkins engine, what on earth were they thinking about?

Roger Cox

02/02/22 – 06:09

Taking up the points mentioned by Nigel:-
LHL-206 for the Irish Army can be identified by the body number, 733170, as being a Plaxton Panorama Elite II coach body.
Wilder, Feltham:- From P.S.V. Circle News Sheets
364-EDIT-27:- Brighton Rally entries:
Wilder, Feltham YMD 990H Bl LHL6P  LHL-143, and YLY 594H Bl LHL6L   LHL-144
365-MET-59:- YMD 990H new 4/70 – Bl LHL6L LHL143
380-MET-128:- YMD 990H quoted variously as LHL6L and LHL6P, is LHL6P.
Since the data in the Rally Report pre-dated its appearance in the News Sheet, there can be no doubt that the LHL6P and LHL6L for the Rally entrants was taken from the relevant chassis plates.

John Kaye

04/02/22 – 05:48

Just picked this up. This livery is one of my favourites. This stems back to Gliderways Smethwick in my youth, the first company I wrote to and asked for a fleet list, only to be told they did not issue fleet lists. However I did receive a letter beautifully embossed with the crimson Gliderways fleet name. I suppose the element which made the presentation of the coaches stand out was that the grey/crimson colours were the only colours used, including any lettering and the fleet name. A great look in the 60’s. Grey also weathered well in service, not looking too shabby even when dirty

John Rentell

04/02/22 – 05:50

United had quite a number of the short wheelbase versions with Leyland engines.
They were known as ‘Stotty Boxes’
Stott being a Geordie word meaning ‘bounce’ and my word, they certainly did.

Ronnie Hoye

08/02/22 – 06:17

A little surprised that the O.400 was suspect in reliability. Noisy and underpowered it most certainly was, but I thought that otherwise it had quite a good reputation. I would certainly agree with Ronnie about the shorties. I cannot remember the history of the vehicle – but I believe that it had been with ABC Guildford before reaching the operator for whom I drove it. Possibly the worst, and certainly the most bouncy bus or coach that I have ever driven. How can something as dire as an LH come from the same factory, and at the same time, as an RE?

David Oldfield

09/02/22 – 05:57

I recall that the prevailing view after Leyland bought shares in Bristol was that the Transport Holding Company allowed Leyland to take control from a technical standpoint. The THC wanted a successor to the SU, but Leyland wanted a successor to the Tiger Cub. I see from Wikipedia that the LH’s front and rear axles came from Leyland’s Bathgate plant, which suggests to me that it was designed and developed under Leyland’s thumb.

Peter Williamson

22/08/22 – 06:51

I remember driving LHs from United’s Jesmond Garage in Newcastle in the early 1970s. They had very heavy steering and the synchromesh gearbox was stiff. They also had a loud exhaust, but we’re very fast, if you could put up with the bouncy ride!
For comfort, I preferred the earlier crash box single deckers, which were known as "U-boats" at Jesmond.

Bruce Moore