Copyright Bob Gell

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1954
Bristol K5G 
ECW H28/28R

A fine vehicle indeed, but quite sad in some ways. This typical ex-Tilling Group Bristol K5G is spending its final days on loan to Yorkshire Woollen District, after its parent company (York-West Yorkshire) had lost its Tilling identity to the National Bus Company.

Eleven Bristol K5Gs were added to the York – West Yorkshire fleet in 1939, being numbered Y395-9/Y701-6, and registered DWU 133-7/994-9, (706 is seen to the right here).
They gave sterling service, and will always be remembered by West Yorkshire fans as a contrast to the dominance of the post war style in the fleet, as they lasted in original form until 1954/5.
In 1954/5, they were taken out of service, and were to re-emerge with handsome new 4 bay ECW bodies as seen here. New chassis frames were used, but the running units were fully overhauled and re-fitted. Because new chassis frames were fitted, the rebuilt vehicles were re-registered OWT 195-205.
To cover their temporary absence, 3 most interesting vehicles were purchased from Brighton, Hove and District, and these would merit a post in themselves! They were 1931/2 AEC “Regents” which had “Gardner 5s”, and 1944 ECW highbridge bodies to the post war profile, being quite similar to the prototype body built the same year on a K5G for the Tilling Group. A ride on one of these vehicles was like being at a symphony concert…. melodies and harmonies from the gearbox and engine were beyond description, but a delight nevertheless. One could perhaps walk quicker than the top speed of these veterans, which were numbered ADG 1-3 in the new 1954 system!
To return to our rebuilt K5Gs, they re-entered service with YDG numbers in the new system mentioned above, and settled down to give another fine spell of service, before succumbing to the inevitable FS type Lodekka, and others.
The new numbers were YDG 82-92 and YDG 88 is seen in our main photograph above, which was taken by Bob at Dewsbury bus station in July 1969.
York-West Yorkshire was a truly wonderful fleet, and how lucky we West Yorkshire enthusiasts were to have these two “side fleets” of Keighley , and York, which both had their own character and contrast to the main fleet. Keighley, and the main fleet always used lowbridge double deckers, whereas York used the highbridge layout, and the flat terrain was ideal for the K5G. I can still hear them chugging sedately round that beautiful old city!
As always, when nostalgia kicks in, it is really difficult to grasp the passage of time, it now being well over 40 years since the demise of these buses. York never seems (quite) the same place these days, without the super old red and cream buses which were part of the character of the place!

Photograph Bob Gell, insert shot S J N White with copy by John Whitaker

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

A full list of West Yorkshire fleet codes can be seen here.

———

13/03/11 – 10:38

Thank you, thank you, John, for your wonderful write-up that so faithfully reflects the spirit of the York-West Yorkshire fleet of my childhood and youth. I was brought up with the 1939 K5Gs; the photo of 706, with its original ‘bible’, (or ‘flap-board’), indicator is shown on route 6, regularly operated with these vehicles, as was service 2 between Stuart Road and Bur Dyke Avenue. I remember so well as a small boy waiting at our local bus stop with my mother, telling her the service number of the next bus to arrive – you could hear it before you saw it – by the sound of the engine. Sometimes you could even tell individual vehicles from their distinctive engine notes. The rebodying exercise resulted in these buses having a remarkable total life of almost 30 years with Y-WY. It did produce the cynical response amongst some York residents, however, that re-registering them was a bit of a con trick by the Joint Undertaking to disguise the vehicles’ true age.
In service the rebuilt vehicles tended, to be truthful, to lack performance, (were the new bodies heavier?), even on York’s relatively flat terrain. Y-WY had a policy of allocating Bristol and Gardner engined buses to different routes, but some routes might have either. I worked for Y-WY as a conductor in 1962 and 1963, and getting a YDG rather than a YDB or YDX was a sign that you could well end up running late at peak times.
You also mention the famous ADGs. I never came across them because my father worked abroad during their entire time with Y-WY, but I remember a driver on the Fulford Rota – they were mainly used on the 4/4A route – demonstrating to me in graphic and most amusing detail that they were the most unpleasant and unrewarding vehicles he ever drove. He said the pedals were very high while the gear lever was positioned low down and behind the driver, so that all gear changes required an act of contortion. He reckoned – as you say, ADGs were not noticeably quick – that a change from third to second was a lottery to be avoided at all costs, and claimed, (of course drivers were not always accurate in their interpretations of management decisions), that the reason the ADGs were usually allocated to the Fulford Rota was to reduce that eventuality by avoiding Holgate Hill.
Incidentally, they were never actually owned by Y-WY, despite having the name on the side, but were hired from WY.
Finally, the colour picture of YDG88 shows it with its later, T-shaped destination indicator. Originally, it had the full three-section indicator, which had five different blinds to set. When you were running late on Service 3/11, changing from 11A back to 3 at the terminus was a drag, especially if it was your last trip before being relieved and you had an impatient driver.
Thank you again, John. Happy days, indeed!

Roy Burke

———

13/03/11 – 10:46

I was very interested to see the photograph of West Yorkshire OWT 281. These were along with others initially hired from West Yorkshire and then taken in to the Yorkshire Woollen fleet during a vehicle shortage. I remember conducting these buses.

Philip Carlton

———

14/03/11 – 07:17

John W has said some wonderful things about York West Yorkshire and brought back many fond memories of my visits to York in the early fifties. West Yorkshire Road Car was in my view a quality ex Tilling Company and always produced some excellent rebuilt pre-war Bristol K5G buses from their Harrogate Works. The final York K5Gs were their last re-bodies to appear and were based again on a solid Bristol engineering and a Gardner 5LW.

Richard Fieldhouse

———

14/03/11 – 07:22

Roy’s last paragraph reminds me of the ultimate "pantomime" concerning the changing of multiple destination displays. When I was a West Yorkshire conductor at Ilkley we had a route to Heber’s Ghyll – five minutes each way and no recovery (standing) time. Single deckers were always used and had three piece displays front and rear, and always went straight onto other routes with differing information.

Chris Youhill

———

14/03/11 – 13:17

I am really pleased Roy, that you enjoyed the post about what are obviously favourite buses to us both! Thanks also for the ADG anecdotes.
I believe the OWT rebodies would be less lively than the originals, as they would, as you suggest, be heavier.
There really was something special and "ponderous" about YWY which was absolutely fascinating. We lived in Bradford, but passed through regularly on the way to Bridlington, and our weekend/holiday tram bungalow at Skipsea. Lucky you, living there. You must have plenty of WY experience to share with us!

John Whitaker

———

16/03/11 – 11:14

As you say, John, I had lots of pleasant and amusing experiences with York-West Yorkshire, which I’d happily share, except that much the same could be said of anyone who’s worked as a conductor with any operator. Two examples: Chris has shared his recollection of changing a blind in a hurry. Great fun, but I bet there are many readers of this site who have had the unnerving experience of changing a front blind as the driver reversed into a side road. I’ve done that many times, but I used to draw the line at the driver pulling forward again while I was still clinging on although jumping off as the driver did so was a real recipe for trouble!
Also, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about missing the red and cream buses, the atmosphere of York City itself has changed a great deal in the last half century; not for the better in my view, but that’s life. I recall, incidentally, a passenger who must then have been about the same age we are now telling me he remembered when the colour of the City’s buses was blue, so…..

Roy Burke

———

16/03/11 – 14:18

Hi Roy. I cannot remember the blue buses in York, but I do know what you mean!.
I was in York two Saturdays ago for a railway Museum visit, and I must admit it was a little too "Touristy" for my taste these days. Things change. Maybe we could share our photo collections a bit, as we probably both have gaps. Just a thought, and good to share happy memories with another enthusiast.

John Whitaker

———

23/03/11 – 17:55

As a boy the first time I really took any notice of buses was on a holiday to Bournemouth (late 60’s), looking out for KSW’s without a dented front or rear dome (there weren’t many) I thought the Green and Cream livery on the Hants and Dorset buses very smart until I noticed a Red and Cream Lodekka FLF belonging Wilts and Dorset, I liked the squarer profile of the K to the more rounded Lodekka. M y dad couldn’t understand why we had to go past the bus station each day, a great holiday and buses.

Roger Broughton

———

24/03/11 – 06:39

Hi, has anyone out there a West Yorkshire fleet list that I could have a copy of, as my own list is a very sketchy one?

Keith Easton

———

24/03/11 – 18:25

Hi Keith
Re. WYRC fleet list. I have the one in the old TPC book by Keith Jenkinson, but it is a bit sketchy, with no withdrawal dates. I could transcribe this over time, into acceptable format and put it forward for inclusion in the new fleet list section. There is, however, both a PSV Circle list, and a West Yorkshire Information Service (now defunct) list which gives a lot more detail, so before embarking on any such project, does any of our "fraternity" have one of these publications. I am afraid mine disappeared years ago, although I have taken extracts from PSVC one at the Omnibus Soc. archives.
If I go ahead with this, it will need someone else to take over after about 1956, when my interest begins to wane!

John Whitaker

———

25/03/11 – 08:16

Hi John, Thanks for the offer, but the TPC book is where my somewhat sketchy list came from! I have most details from the 1980’s, and the earlier ones would be most welcome, but perhaps wait until we see what, if anything, materialises. Once again thanks for your offer.

Keith Easton

———

09/05/11 – 08:11

After reading all the interesting comments above about the York fleet, I seemed to recall that at some point YWY had considered purchasing some second hand KSWs for the fleet. On looking through John F Gill’s fascinating and very informative book ‘York-West Yorkshire Joint Services – 50 Years of Joint Services 1934-1984’ again, this was confirmed. What surprised me though was the lateness of the year – 1967. At this time YWY was ordering new VR and RE buses for its 1968/9 deliveries, to replace the rebuilt K5Gs (including YDG 88 illustrated above) and two of the 1951 KS-types, which according to the book would have left eight YDBs in service, and that the JOC were considering purchasing eight 1954 KSWs from Bristol Omnibus to replace them! However, it was later decided not to pursue the matter, as the cost of bringing the vehicles up to standard would have been uneconomic. (The book states that the only Bristol Omnibus double deckers that fitted the date quoted would have been highbridge KSWs from the PHW/SHW-registered batches). Given the notorious reliability problems with the early VRTs though, maybe the JOC were on the right track after all!

Brendan Smith

———

10/05/11 – 07:26

I used to travel on united counties between Derngate and Earls Barton. The routes on A45 were mostly 402 and 404. K6A were normal, but 3 buses had 6 cyl engines 615 662 were 2 of them. in the morning it was 2 L5G single deckers every day. These had an overdrive gear engaged from 4th. it was only usable from about 40mph. occasionally the speed reached nearly 60 on the down hills, but how I wish they had the familiar [to me] Daimler gearboxes. the town buses were so different but i think all had Gardner 5s. I was at Barton turn one day and 4 corporation buses roared past where the K5s struggled.

P Bartlett

———

10/05/11 – 07:30

Brendan’s point about York-West Yorks looking at Bristol OC K types is interesting given that some of their own would have gone to Yorkshire Woollen in 1969 to a vehicle shortage there!

Chris Hough

———

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

———

22/01/12 – 11:38

Having been away from from my computer for a while, I’ve only just seen this excellent posting, which for me – by co-incidence it’s now within a day or two of being exactly 50 years since I began working for York-West Yorkshire – has particular nostalgia. I remember these vehicles very well indeed, and must have worked on YDG88 many, many times.
The re-bodied 1939 K5Gs were probably the most unpopular vehicles in the Y-WY fleet – certainly amongst the crews, and in so far as they took any notice of the bus they were travelling on, with passengers too. As Richard F points out, they were noisy and and rough, both the ride and the engine note. The photo was, I believe, taken in Rougier Street, where the sound of anything pulling away with a full load and a 5LW engine reverberated loudly. Since there would often be an East Yorkshire Leyland passing through at the same time, the comparison was not flattering to Y-WY!
They were also slow, even in comparison with the re-bodied 1938 K5Gs, which I’ve always assumed, (others, better informed, might disabuse me of that notion), was due to their body weight. Some drivers would, for example, use first gear when pulling away from the traffic lights at the junction of Queen Street and Blossom Street with a full load, the only vehicles on which this ever happened. On the question of re-registering, Keith Jenkinson, in his highly informative book, ‘York City Buses’, says that the decision was taken at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 20 July 1954: ‘…as they would appear as "new" buses, it was agreed that they should be re-registered in order to reflect that.’ A popular explanation amongst the crews – I don’t vouch for its truthfulness – was that a City Councillor on the Joint Committee was facing re-election and was keen to get York some ‘new’ buses since there hadn’t been any since February 1952. Giving the vehicles new fleet numbers was just being consistent with new registration numbers.
One point has always baffled me and I’d be grateful for an explanation from someone. Some of these vehicles ended up with Yorkshire Woollen District to cover for that company’s vehicle shortage in, I think, 1969. My query is about the reasons for YWD’s shortage. All BET companies had a vehicle replacement programme, so what caused the shortage?

Roy Burke

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1969
Daimler Roadliner SRP8
Plaxton B46D

130 was the first of the final batch of ten Roadliners (130-139) to be delivered to PMT. They had Plaxton bodies to their standard timber framed design with BET style front and rear screens. Apart from the Perkins V8.510 engine, they were similar mechanically to the previous deliveries although they had the miniature Westinghouse air gear shift with a sixth position to operate the centre doors. The Perkins engine was a vast improvement on the Cummins V6 but did suffer from premature cylinder bore wear causing high oil consumption possibly due to some inadequacy in the air filtration system.
The bodies were built with a higher floor level requiring an entrance step (earlier buses had a step free entrance). They were built to the dual door layout then briefly in vogue. Heated windscreens were an innovation on these buses controlled by a wind up clockwork timer(!!) which quickly proved unsuitable for heavy duty bus operation. Some early deliveries went to Stafford Garage and I recall a report from the Inspector there about the indelicacy of young mini skirted mothers when retrieving their push chairs from the luggage pen which had rather a high rail round it!! 130 was the only one in the batch to have the once standard cream panel above the saloon windows, 131 onwards had all red roofs. These were also the first new buses not to have the familiar prefix letters to the fleet number (following on from SN1129 which was the last of the short Marshall bodied Leopards delivered the previous year). The above photo was taken on 1st July 1969 shortly after delivery at the weighbridge at Shelton Iron and Steel where we took the first of each batch of new buses for weighing. The driver is Bill Davies who was a Management Trainee at the time.

Copyright Ian Wild

This is a shot of an earlier Roadliner KVT 180E fleet number S1080 being towed into Stoke Central Works shortly after being burnt out at Swynnerton on 25th March 1969 it was rebodied with an identical body to the 130-139 batch returning to service on 1st August 1969.
PMT cancelled a further order for Roadliners and substituted single deck Fleetlines but date wise they are outside the time period of this website.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

10/03/11 – 07:48

I was the first driver to go into service with 138, it was a Saturday afternoon I was based at Newcastle garage and both 138 and 139 were put on the Burslem Silverdale service on the shift change over. I don’t remember driving anything so fast and it was a struggle not to run early on this service, going up hills was not a problem at all with these vehicles it was "just like driving a mail train as they say"

Michael Crofts

28/07/11 – 15:27

Funny you should mention 138; I’m sure that was the one I saw at Preston North End’s Deepdale ground in the late 1970s having gone there to watch Port Vale play. Only the driver of our Bostock’s coach, who was as big a bus nut as I was, and myself made any comment. It had been sold by PMT to a local independent.

Mel Harwood

22/05/12 – 07:54

I would imagine that it was 137 you saw in Preston as it was latterly owned by Holmeswood Coaches of Rufford … coincidentally the present owners of Bostocks.

Martyn Hearson

10/05/17 – 07:18

I remember Roadliners that West Riding operated, on a trip from Horbury to Flockton on the Wakefield Huddersfield service I think the service number was 89 or 86 this particular Saturday was entering Flockton the Netherton Midgley side and there is a sharp left hand bend just as we approached the bend round the corner came lorry cutting the corner on our side of the road the driver could only put the bus as near to wall and trees on our side of the road as he could and hope that we missed each other which we did ,from the front of the bus came a substantial number of choice Yorkshire adjectives expressing the doubt that our West Riding had of the driver of the lorrys parentage and when we got to Flockton the driver removed the assorted foliage from front nearside wingmirror mounting and doors and nearside open windows, as we got off in Flockton our driver said to my mum are you an lad or rite lass, mum said yes the driver said aye lass that were close at least I haven’t scratched it they only got this b***** yesterday!

David Parkin

03/03/20 – 06:53

From a laymans point of view and having travelled many times on these buses I always thought they offered a much better ride than the previously delivered Roadliners. Travelling on the early batches of Roadliners was much more of a bouncy ride, so was there a change to the suspension on the last batch?

Leekensian

12/03/20 – 06:05

No, the final batch had Metalastik Toggle Link suspension units the same as the previous Roadliners. Thinking about it, I recall a better ride-maybe different rated shock absorbers?

Ian Wild

18/03/20 – 06:49

I recall that two of the original batches of Roadliners were converted to Perkins engines – S1065 & S1078 spring to mind, but did not prevent their early withdrawal along with the majority of the Roadliners.

Leekensian

Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1937
Bristol JO5G
ECW B32F

West Yorkshire Bristol JO5G 970 with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) B32F body built in 1937 is also seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It would appear to being used as a temporary crew rest room after a duty on a service from Ilkley. This bus was was one of a further twenty eight “Js” rebuilt by ECW with a roller blind indicator box to replace the “bible” indicator. Bristol JO5G 970 was part of a large fleet of over one hundred bought between 1935 and 1937 and the “Js” could be seen operating over a wide area of the West Yorkshire Company network. 970 was withdrawn from service at the end of September 1954 and the last in the fleet JO5G 996 went out of service in May 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

———

06/03/11 – 09:19

Another wonderful picture of particular nostalgia for me, as I lived in Ilkley in those days, travelled often on service 63, and when I joined West Yorkshire in 1960 worked on the route frequently. Although the installation of the postwar pattern full size roller destination boxes was an obvious improvement for all concerned, the fitment always seemed to me to be a little excessive in height and took something away from the beautiful classic lines of these vehicles. I had completely forgotten that the intermediate display was as comprehensive as shown in the picture – later editions settled for "Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross" and "Burley in Wharfedale" was certainly a bonus. West Yorkshire was one of those companies who liked to stick to three digit fleet numbers, which brought about an interesting point with this batch : In the 1937 delivery BWT 794 became 999, thereby "bursting the thousand", and BWT 795 became 101.

Chris Youhill

———

06/03/11 – 11:55

Absolutely wonderful photograph which again takes me back further than I would care to admit!
WYRC allocated fleet numbers on a "hundred" block basis, service bus single deckers going on to a new "100" series when the 900 block was exhausted. I well remember riding on these "J"s , particularly from Bingley to Dick Hudsons, and it was these buses which evoked those memories of internal transfers which were discussed some weeks ago. "Please tender exact fare and state destination" etc!
I agree with Chris that the classic lines of the ECW body were somewhat spoiled by the roller blind conversion, which always seemed a bit "spasmodic" as to why some were and some were not converted.
I remember riding on the last "J" in service, in 1955, on an enthusiast tour from Bradford to York, where we also sampled the delights of the 3 "ADG"s, a story to be told elsewhere.
A delightful photograph Richard, and what a contrast between these later BWT registered J types and their earlier squarer ECOC bodied elder cousins with YG, AWW and AWX registrations!
A fleet with very strong Tilling influences, and yet how strange that the body layout, if not style, was typical of BET practice, with the front porch style door. Superb rugged, reliable buses which just oozed atmosphere and character!

John Whitaker

———

11/03/11 – 07:44

I’ve never driven a Bristol J or G, but K (in service) and L (in preservation) are old friends. A letter in Buses Illustrated about 40 years ago (I’m afraid I’ve forgotten the exact wording) suggested that–unlike the London RT driver–the poor provincial Bristol driver had to wrestle with heavy, awkward controls. Nothing could be further from the truth. Steering is light and dead positive, brakes are progressive and trustworthy, the clutch allows a nice smooth takeup, the gearbox is less demanding than some and has sensible ratios and the cab is comfortable: in short, an ideal driver’s bus. Or was I always lucky enough to get the good ‘uns?
Lovely evocative photograph! Thanks.

Ian Thompson

———

11/03/11 – 11:13

I agree with you fully Ian on every point there, and in particular concerning the brakes – I always found Bristol brakes to be completely predictable and reliable at all times. In my own view, and I appreciate that every driver has his/her favoured model, the Bristols of that era shared friendly top place with the Leyland PS1/PD1 for a pleasant and comfortable driving experience and absolutely no hidden vices.

Chris Youhill

———

11/03/11 – 17:51

I think it is what the onlooker sees (or thinks he sees). The pre-selector gearbox, especially on AEC Regents, always looked and sounded quick, smooth and light to operate. Manual gear change (before synchromesh) required the pause to let revs die down when changing up, or the blip on the accelerator to speed them up when changing down. So it was a slower change, accompanied by mechanical sounds that gave the impression of was hard and heavy work. Derby’s Fodens and Bartons’ Utility Guy Arabs certainly always looked and sounded as though they were pigs to drive – but there again I may be quite wrong.

Stephen Ford

———

12/03/11 – 07:11

Stephen, the Fodens were not at all hard to drive in terms of physical effort, but the gearboxes required spot on precision and were very unforgiving. Any miss-match of road speed and engine revs produced a high pitched screech rather akin to applying a piece of metal to a power saw and was most embarrassing. The Guy Arabs (early marques including the utilities) had easily manageable gearboxes, once you remembered that some were "back to front" in that first and second were nearest to you, and third and fourth were against the engine panel. Those Arabs did though have very heavy clutches and much effort was also needed to press the accelerator hard enough once the governors engaged. Despite these observations though I don’t think either model could fairly be described as "a pig to drive" – provided you were interested in the job they were rewarding and very tough vehicles, and I’d just love an hour on each of them right now.
My favourite bus at Samuel Ledgard’s Otley Depot was the Roe rebodied utility Guy Arab JUA 763, with "back to front" gearbox – I used to take it out at every opportunity. The placid little garage man who allocated the buses was always aware that he might have it on his hands to the last each morning as the undedicated brethren shunned it. His face would light up with relief when I appeared and, pencil poised, who would enquire "763 kid ??" and with a happy smile delete the number on his little list. My next task was then to try and pacify with cigs, sweets or teas the disgruntled conductors who would mutter "narrow gangways and only one bell upstairs."

Chris Youhill