Copyright Stephen Howarth

Oldham Corporation
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/30
Roe H37/28R

I have been having a rummage through a few pictures and came across this one. Whilst it is not the best photograph in the world, I am sure it is of historical interest.
The vehicle on the right is one of Oldham Corporations 1958 ‘Tin front’ Titans fleet number 443, it was transferred to SELNEC on November 1969, and re-numbered 5343 in that fleet. In this photograph it is still in the Crimson and White lined out livery, which Oldham used until 1966, when replaced with Pommard and Devon Cream. It is photographed in Lever Street Manchester, (destination blinds showed Stephenson Square), operating the service 13 to Uppermill via Oldham and Scouthead. This service was a Limited Stop service operated jointly with Manchester Corporation Transport.
What is interesting with the photograph is that I caught a Maynes of Manchester AEC Regent operating on their service between Droylsden and Manchester Dale Street. Unfortunately the speed of the bus has made the registration unreadable, and there is no record on the rear of the photograph. But it looks like one of their AEC Regent V, with Park Royal H41/32R bodies.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

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06/11/11 – 12:25

Aah, my favourite vehicle from my favourite batch of Oldham’s buses. These PD2s were superb inside and out, but sadly got more and more disfigured over the years with moquette seats replaced by vinyl ones and the original elaborately lined-out livery changing first to an unlined version, then pommard and cream and finally, for some, SELNEC’s orange and white.
443 escaped some of these treatments. As the batch were being worked through for re-certification when twelve years old the policy was changed so the earlier examples received orange and a five year ticket. 443 was done later and only got three years in total. To cut down on costs it wasn’t fully repainted but tidied up in pommard. This work was done at Stockport and as a consequence the original interior survived largely intact.
It survived a bit longer as it was used as a skid pan bus at Hyde Road for a while after withdrawal. I have a photo of it there carrying the grille (and therefore registration) off 442 – very confusing!
The Mayne’s bus will be on the Audenshaw to Dale Street service – the Droylsden service was numbered 46 and more significantly, ran to Stevenson Square, although both traversed this section of Lever Street. It can be identified as 6974 ND, a 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA with Park Royal H41/32R body of a particularly ugly design.
The photograph will have been taken just before quarter past the even hour, as that is when Oldham’s bus on the 13 left, the other bus after the odd hour being a Manchester one. North Western worked the opposite way round to Uppermill via Lees on the 14, then returning via Scouthead to Manchester as a 13.

David Beilby

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06/11/11 – 17:03

A close colleague of the (A) Mayne’s bus is already on this site at this link. Doesn’t it look like a Bridgemaster – & the height is not all perspective, has it – no dome?

Joe

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07/11/11 – 07:39

It’s exactly the same as the second Bridgemaster body – except, obviously, for the height. If you mean does it have a flat roof profile, the answer is yes.

David Oldfield

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07/11/11 – 07:40

As David B said, the Park Royal bodies on that batch of Maynes Regent Vs were particularly ugly, and they were the last ones bought before Maynes switched to East Lancs. As an enthusiast I have always liked to think there is a connection between those two facts, but I have no evidence for this.

Peter Williamson

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07/11/11 – 12:11

Well the East Lancs bodies were a distinct improvement aesthetically – but were they East Lancs or Neepsend?

David Oldfield

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08/11/11 – 06:40

I agree with David Beilby, these Oldham PD2’s always exuded an air of quality with their comfortable interiors and lined out livery. I rode on them regularly on the 9 (Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton) and 24/90 (Rochdale- Manchester) routes. On the 90 Limited Stop service which ran non-stop from Royton into Manchester they could turn in a fair pace along Broadway if they got the many sets of traffic lights in their favour.
Regarding the ugly Park Royal bodies on the Maynes AEC, I did once read somewhere that Southampton turned away from Park Royal and moved to East Lancs after being very unimpressed with the abominations Park Royal inflicted on them on both Leyland PD2 and AEC Regent V chassis using the Bridgemaster derived design. I don’t know if this was true or even if operators cared about the appearance of their buses from a design point of view. Perhaps some did.

Philip Halstead

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08/11/11 – 10:45

Well Philip, they certainly forsook the same PRV abominations for East Lancs/Neepsend – whatever the reason. [Swindon, Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Wooken also had versions – the latter two by Roe – not to mention the first ACV Atlanteans, again built by Roe.]

David Oldfield

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10/11/11 – 07:37

Similar very ugly Park Royal bodies were bought on a batch of PD2s by Southampton. These seemed incredibly top heavy due to their short length.

Chris Hough

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10/11/11 – 07:38

I am sure that the Southampton story is true. Possibly not all, but certainly many municipal General Managers had definite ideas about the standards of vehicle design and appearance. Inevitably, the name of Geoff Hilditch springs to mind, but he was by no means alone in holding such views, and the municipal GMs held regular get togethers at which opinions were frankly exchanged. I have some Southampton pictures that I will submit in due course.

Roger Cox

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10/11/11 – 07:39

To answer David’s question, Maynes had two Regent Vs bodied by East Lancs in 1964 and three by Neepsend in 1965.

Peter Williamson

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10/11/11 – 17:02

Thanks, Peter

David Oldfield

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20/12/11 – 06:40

I too agree with David Beilby’s comments about the Leyland/Roe Titans 429-452. I remember riding on them to and from college/Oldham Music Centre, on the 9 (409) bus route (437,443 and 449) in the mid 1960’s when they still carried their original livery. Around 1964/5 I recollect seeing a few examples on our route (B, Fitton Hill-Middleton Junction), and off their usual routes. It was the elaborate lined livery which caught my eye, as the usual buses on this route were unlined by that time or indeed like Leylands 388-407 and 413-418 (NBU 488-507 and NBU 513-518), never had been. I used to take notes of the bus numbers over a period of twelve months in 1964/5. I rode on 432,433,438,446,447,448,451 and 452 – to and from school in Fitton Hill. Since they were used primarily on the trunk routes I couldn’t understand why; even so, with their increased seating capacity of 65 they were a welcome sight. By this time they were looking tired (435,440 and 452 particularly so) and before long a simplified livery was applied-what a disappointment!
By mid July 1966 they were introduced to our route in number, having been cascaded from the trunk routes when the Leyland Atlantean invasion gained ground.

D. Butterworth

Copyright Victor Brumby

Wesleys of Stoke Goldington
1945
Daimler CWA6
Duple L27/26RD

As Daimlers have such an enthusiastic and knowledgeable following here, I proffer this 14/6/1958 shot of from left to right VV 8931, ACK 781, and ASD 834 at a day-trip to Wicksteeds Park, Kettering, standing by for their return trip. ACK 781 & ASD 834 were with Wesleys of Stoke Goldington and VV 8931 served then for Priory Coaches of Leamington Spa.
I will leave it up to you chaps to come up with the original operators of the above vehicles.
Oh! the ‘decker far left just out of shot is an ex-London Transport. STD 44, DLU 354, another Priory Coaches excursion bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby

02/11/11 – 21:12

Wonderful photograph Victor! What is it about wartime Daimlers, and independents of this era?
Maybe the "VV" is ex Northampton: it looks like a Park Royal body which were quite rare on Daimlers. ASD is Scottish is it not, but from where, I leave to the more knowledgeable. CK is probably Scout Motor Services, but not 100% sure. A wonderfully evocative picture of another "classic" independent, Wesleys, which I remember from reading "Buses Illustrated" when I was a lad!
Many thanks.

John Whitaker

03/11/11 – 09:16

Wesley is probably best remembered for the Crellin-Duplex "half-decker" coaches it operated in the late 1950s. The two machines, KHO 178/179 had Mann Egerton bodywork on Crossley chassis and had been new to the Creamline group in Hampshire. Several other independents (including Butter of Childs Ercall and Pegg of Caston) used half-deckers on schools services, but as far as I know Wesley was the only company to use them on stage carriage operations available to the public. Can anyone think of any other such operations by Crellin-Duplex vehicles?

Neville Mercer

03/11/11 – 12:20

SD was a Glasgow registration, but of course that only narrows things down slightly!

Stephen Ford

04/11/11 – 07:08

ASD 834 was new to Western S.M.T in 1945. It is a Daimler CWA6 with a lowbridge Duple body. SD was an Ayrshire mark.

VV 8933 ex Northampton Corporation 124. A Daimler CWD6.

Stephen Bloomfield

04/11/11 – 15:35

Interesting that ASD 834 had a Duple utility body. Massey, at that time, was the only official builder of lowbridge utility bodies and London Transport used its influence and argument that its earlier CWA’s were bodied by Duple, to get its 1945 order changed to Duple, too.

Chris Hebbron

05/11/11 – 07:11

Not sure what you mean , Chris H, about Massey being the only builder of lowbridge utility bodies in 1945. There were several others.

I have just been consulting the "bible" on utility buses, namely Alan Townsin`s book, which details the quantity and type block allocation system for the production of utility buses.
Highbridge Daimlers, Guys, and unfrozen buses are quite detailed in regard to this matter, but lowbridge Daimlers seem to be relatively simple:
40 CWG5s were lowbridge bodied by Brush (there were 60 highbridge CWG5s, 30 by Duple, and 30 by Massey.)
Lowbridge CWA6 were all bodied by Duple or Brush, unless I have missed something, and I can find no reference to lowbridge Massey bodies on any Daimler utility chassis. Indeed, they were rare on Guys also.
I think the ACK registered bus in Victor’’s photograph is a Brush body if anyone can confirm, and, of course, Southend had several. Duple built a handful of low bodies on early wartime Bristol K chassis, but most of these were built by Strachan.
It would be fascinating to see the timings of all the combinations in a tabulated form if anyone wants to help me research it.

John Whitaker

05/11/11 – 07:12

Western S.M.T had lowbridge bodies on Guy Arab II’s and Daimlers CW’s by Northern Counties, Roe, Duple, Massey, Brush and Weymann. Hants and Dorset had lowbridge bodies by Strachan, Duple, Brush and Roe on Bristol and Guy chassis.

Stephen Bloomfield

05/11/11 – 07:13

Bradford Corporation Passenger Transport also received some Daimler CWA6s with Duple lowbridge bodies in January 1945. These were 487 to 501 (DKY 487 -501).
However they were glad to dispose of them as there was no requirement for lowbridge buses in Bradford. They were never popular with the passengers due to the wooden seats which were a challenge on the upper deck. All these buses were gone by the end of February 1952 and some went to Nottingham for further use.

Richard Fieldhouse

06/11/11 – 17:14

Well, of course, you polymaths cracked my Daimler trio without delay. My puerile notes of the period give: ACK781 = Ribble fleet no. 2427, ASD834 = Western Scottish Motor Traction KR225 and VV8931 = Northampton Corporation # 126. Living fairly near Northampton, I recall my admiration of that all-Daimler fleet in respect of the impeccable cleanliness of their buses. I surmise that Northampton’s Transport Manager was a something of a martinet, in full charge of all he surveyed and probably ex-military…….
I still perceive in 2011, that German- and Swiss-registered artics are always clean and dent-free as if they were followed by a valet service and a mobile bodyshop. Of the Euro-fleet, I opine that Albanian lorries are the dirtiest – and sadly, GB-reg HGVs frequently display Albion’s mud to the Eurohordes. Shame.

Victor Brumby

08/02/18 – 15:00

I was at Wicksteed Park that day on the Monks Park Club childrens annual outing. The bus parked behind is a Northampton Corporation Daimler, end one of a row of four that took us over that day parked behind.

Bob Perrin

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

The Northern General Transport Company
1961
AEC Reliance 2MU3RV
Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F

On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

A full list of Reliance codes can be seen here.

30/10/11 – 15:02

Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original.
I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards.
One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.

David Oldfield

02/11/11 – 06:46

David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series.
My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise!
All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses.
I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!

Eric

02/11/11 – 09:26

Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation.
I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.

David Oldfield

02/11/11 – 15:04

David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4

Eric

03/11/11 – 06:27

Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.

David Oldfield

03/11/11 – 17:46

Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries.
Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.

Eric

04/11/11 – 07:04

I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.

Ronnie Hoye

13/11/12 – 08:40

I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.

Malcolm Swaddle

18/04/13 – 17:40

Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s

Ronnie Hoye