Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Nottingham City transport
1945
Daimler CWA6
Duple UL27/28R

Some months ago, June 2011 to be precise, there was a question on the Q&As page from Stephen Ford about the ex Bradford lowbridge utilities acquired by Nottingham Corporation Transport for the then new Clifton Estate services.
I have now come across the above photograph of 47 (DKY 496) at a somewhat embryonic Clifton Estate. I have been told that the shot is likely to be Green Lane, Clifton but I can not be certain.
One odd coincidence is that the Daimler utilities were NCT numbered 44-50, the same fleet numbers reappeared on Clifton services a few years later, 44/5 on 1959 Metro Cammell PD2s and 46-50 on 1962/3 Park Royal Daimler Fleetlines. If you are interested you can view Stephens original question at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

29/12/11 – 09:29

Re John Whitakers comment to Stephens original question Pigtroughs and the ‘Flat’ part (roof?) may be understandable, but why the ‘Harriet’ part?

Chris Hebbron

29/12/11 – 14:58

Nice photo of one of my favourite batch of Bradford buses! Many thanks.
I honestly do not know where "Harriets" comes from Chris, but I think it was just a Bradford "rudery", one of many which former mill workers such as myself tried valiantly to disregard!

John Whitaker

29/12/11 – 17:58

Doncaster had some highbridge Weymann CWA6’s which looked a bit uncurved like this and lasted much longer – ’43 -‘ 58 – and seemed indestructible, if I recall, rather agricultural.

Joe

30/12/11 – 07:27

Bradford had highbridge CWA6s too, Joe, and these lasted until 1958, until replaced by 25 ex London RTs.The lowbridge ones were sold earlier, as there was no need for lowbridge buses in the city. Also sold by 1953 were 467, the solitary lowbridge Arab 1, 474/475, 2 Weymann highbridge Arabs, and 6 Massey bodied CWG5 Daimlers, 468 -473. 467 was retained as a "school bus" , BCPTs term for a driver trainer.
As a schoolboy, I loved the flat Harriets so much because they were so different. I always had a fascination for old and decrepitly scruffy buses as they contrasted so vividly with the "posher" stock.
I defer from going into further detail regarding the meaning of the phrase,except to say it was not graciously received if directed towards young ladies!
I never used the term myself!

John Whitaker

30/12/11 – 07:31

Probably Green Lane, but could be either the junction with Southchurch Drive (in the centre of the estate) – route 61 terminus, or with Farnborough Road on the south eastern perimeter, which, I think, was the original terminus of the 61A (later extended to Glenloch Drive). Unfortunately, it is not quite possible to read the route number on the combined blind. "Clifton Estate" is just about legible, and my impression is that the number is too long for the simple 61, so could be 61A. Clifton was a council estate re-housing occupants from slum-clearance property in the city. Car ownership was low, and a decent bus service was indispensable from day 1. For a year or two the termini of the progressively extended services were building site locations – probably a big help to the construction workers too!

Stephen Ford

30/12/11 – 08:58

As requested a closer view of DKY 496 minus the bus stop

30/12/11 – 11:18

OK – I retract that. From the closer view it is very clearly 61.

Stephen Ford

09/01/12 – 07:11

The picture was taken at the original Farnborough Road terminus. The vehicle having turned round at the Southchurch Drive junction. This stop was the site of the temporary wooden St Francis Church building. The Daimlers were delivered to Nottingham in BCT blue but were repainted before entering service.

Ray Pettit

03/05/12 – 08:04

Bus 47 entered service with NCT in January 1953 (we moved to Clifton on 12th January 1953). I don’t think that this is at the original terminus at the north junction of Farnborough Road with Southchurch Drive as the Wimpey site huts situated at this location are not there (there was housing on the opposite side of the road)and the lie of the land looks wrong. Service 61 was extended along Southchurch Drive to its junction with Rivergreen from 28th June 1953 and further along Southchurch Drive to Ruddington Road (later renamed Green Lane) from 7th March 1954. Service 61A, which is partially visable on the close up of 47’s destination blind, commenced operation from 4th April 1954. Initially the 61A only ran Monday to Friday peaks and on Saturday.
The location of 47 isn’t the 61A terminus at Farnborough Road/Ruddington Road as there was already some housing at this location when the service started and Rudington Road isn’t visable in the background. Likewise,I’d rule out Southchurch Drive/Ruddington Road as Ruddington Road isn’t visable in the background (construction of what became known as ‘the top shops’ – at least in where we lived in Clifton – didn’t start until 1954/55). I’dgo with the location being Southchurch Drive/Rivergreen. The land at the side of 47 was subsequently occupied by the Clifton Methodist Church and the rising ground in the background would also be consistant with this location.
Service 61 started operation on Wednesday 29th October 1952 after a process via the East Midland Traffic Commissioner that started in September 1951. The process was often acrimonious and subject to unsuccessful appeals to the Minister of Transport by all parties when Road Service Licences were granted at a hearing on 24th September 1952 to NCT, WBUDC and South Notts. So this October will see the 60th anniversary of bus services to Clifton Estate starting.

Michael Elliott

24/10/13 – 08:03

The location of your photograph is Southchurch Drive Green Lane Glapton Woods Whitegate Woods are in the background the woods are on a hill and yet with no houses yet built this would stand out.

Dean Smith

06/08/16 – 06:24

I remember crashes and break-downs coming home from school at Attenborough up the Derby Road Hill to the stop before Canning Circus 1954 ’til 1959. What number bus would that be?
Then going to Mundella Grammar School for a year (1960), don’t remember the bus for that- anyone know?
I think it was a No. 45 bus that took me to Margaret Glen Bott School at Woollaton for the next 4 years.
After that, it was Clifton Hall Girl’s Grammar School- anyone know what bus that would be from Western Terrace just in the Park Estate (knocked down now!!! boo hoo) to Clifton !965-67?
I am writing my memories down so I would be glad if you could pass me on to anyone who is interested in those areas at that time.
Thank you very much, I include my e-mail address, just in case I might receive some helpful information. Like how long did the Park Estate use a horse and cart. I set up a petition to save the horse from redundancy. It was in the papers.

Pippa Robins

07/08/16 – 07:03

Hello Pippa, Assuming these were all ordinary service buses and not school specials, this would be the scenario:
1. Attenborough to/from Canning Circus would be by Barton’s (red buses). There were a number of route numbers (and routes). The most usual route taken by the 3, 5, 5B, 10 or 11 was Attenborough Lane, Depot Corner, Beeston Square, Broadgate (or Queens Road), University Boulevard (or Beeston Lane through the University campus), Gregory Street, Church Street, Lenton Boulevard and Derby Road. The 5X went along the Chilwell by-pass and Queens Road, missing Beeston Square, but otherwise as above. The 5, 5B and 5X were usually double deckers, the others always single deckers.
2. Mundella was near Trent Bridge, and would almost certainly have been a 43 trolleybus from the stop at the top of Alfreton Road – they ran about every 3 minutes throughout the day. Down to the Old Market Square, then Wheeler Gate, Albert Street, Lister Gate (now pedestrianised), Carrington Street past the Midland station, and Arkwright Street (also now pedestrianised), terminating at the Embankment, although I think Muskham Street – the last stop before the terminus was slightly nearer to Mundella.
3. Margaret Glen Bott was on Sutton Passeys Crescent, Wollaton Park estate, and a 45 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Derby Road sounds right, although a bit less frequent than the 39 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Ilkeston Road.
4. Finally, Clifton Hall Girls Grammar. There were several services to Clifton estate (61, 61A, 66, 67 and 68) run jointly by Nottingham City Transport (green buses) – via the new Clifton Bridge opened in 1958, or West Bridgford UDC (brown buses) and South Notts (dark blue buses) – via Trent Bridge and Wilford village. These started from Broad Marsh bus station, but all of them turned into the housing estate at Farnborough Road, quite a long way before reaching Clifton Hall. You would get a good half mile closer by using a South Notts bus heading out to Gotham and Loughborough. This started at Huntingdon Street bus station and by passed the estate, continuing straight along Clifton Lane past the bottom of the drive to Clifton Hall. From Canning Circus, you would take a 43 trolleybus, changing either at Broad Marsh for the joint service, or Trent Bridge terminus for the Loughborough bus, or possibly a 39 to the Central Market, King Edward Street, for Huntingdon Street bus station.
For more general memories, you might like to try the www.nottstalgia.com  forum.

Stephen Ford

Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Portsmouth Corporation
1948
Leyland Titan PD1/1A
Weymann H30/26R

One of 19 identical PD1/1A’s delivered in 1948, 188 still looks very smart in its glossy maroon and white paint, with roof of grey, paint dipping at the corners à la London Transport’s post-war STL 18/20’s, which had identical bodies.
It has just entered Guildhall Square, Portsmouth, having just come down Commercial Road and under Portsmouth & Southsea’s High Level Station bridge, seen to the left of the bus. Behind, and to the right, is Brickwood’s Sussex Hotel, with its brown-tiled façade.  188 has come from Portchester and is en-route to the Floating Bridge, Old Portsmouth, not, literally, a floating bridge, but a vehicle ferry over to Gosport. Note the police telephone box and the holidaymakers, dad with suitcase, on what looks a lovely Summer’s day, by the look of 188’s open windows. The trolley wires would be used for another few months.
The photo was taken about 1962 and it’s nice to see one of these vehicles with a full blind display (perfectly set), since they were usually relegated to peak-hour working, with just a destination display, in this, the twilight of their lives. 188 was withdrawn in 1967, after 19 years service.
The city coat of arms on the side is in a separate photo. The motto’s in English; no fancy Latin for Pompey folk!
To the right of the main photo, just out of view, was the Taj-Mahal Indian Restaurant. In 1967, a colleague and I were invited to another colleague’s retirement lunch. He’d served in the Indian Army in the war and suggested we’d like a Madras Curry. It was our first curry and was so hot as be virtually inedible, but we couldn’t upset the man; so ate it! I never touched another curry for 20 years! For our host, however, it was not quite hot enough!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

25/12/11 – 06:38

An early example of "Leyland Loonacy". Weymann’s classic post-war design marred by Leyland’s insistence on siting the Speedo unit in such a position and way that the windscreen had to be small and squared off. The logic was that the Leyland body had a far more attractive windscreen (it did) and therefore people wouldn’t buy bodies from anyone else (they did). Did they really believe their own argument in Lancashire?

David Oldfield

25/12/11 – 09:25

What an excellent picture and the highlighting of the City Coat of Arms. Perhaps others may be put on the site with the translation of the Latin inscription. Incidentally nowadays you never see suit cases being carried since the invention of the trolley case.

Philip Carlton

25/12/11 – 18:41

The early post-war Weymann body was certainly a classic but it always looked at its best on the AEC Regent chassis where the radiator, cab windscreen, and in fact the whole package came together just right.

Philip Halstead

26/12/11 – 07:05

I lived as a child in the Gosport area from 1949 to 1952, and well remember the Gosport – Portsmouth Point chain driven Floating Bridge, which opened in 1840 and finally closed in 1959. As so often with short term decisions based entirely upon capital renewal costs, the closure of this facility was misguided, and the result may be seen in the extreme traffic congestion that now plagues the Gosport peninsula. If this photo of No. 188 was taken in 1962, then the Floating Bridge was long gone by then. though the slipway at Portsmouth Point may still be seen today.

Roger Cox

26/12/11 – 07:06

The RT/RTL and RM were designed as a harmonious whole – and this is generally acknowledged – but there have also been unofficial collaborations.
Weymann always worked closely with AEC which probably explains why that combination seemed to work. [For a time, from 1933 to 1947, Sheffield Transport only had AEC and Weymann in that combination – their many Leylands always having other coachwork.] There was the Guy/Park Royal tie up – begun before Park Royal were taken over by AEC/ACV. Two others which, in Philip’s words "came together just right…" were the Bristol Lodekka (in all forms) and the BMMO D9.
It’s what I call balanced design. Bad and/or ugly design is not balanced, there is always at least one thing that "jarrs".

David Oldfield

26/12/11 – 11:21

Looking at a picture of preserved Sheffield 904, I realise that all of their Roe/PD2s from 1957 and the PD3s had exactly the same windscreen as the final Leyland bodies (1951 – 1954). Strangely, the Weymann and ECW PD2s had a different, smaller, windscreen (with similar profile) which Chesterfield also had on its Weymann PD2s.
The other collaboration which I forgot (above) was Leyland and Metro-Cammell (as opposed to Weymann). Roger Davies, in his Ribble book, is only one person to state that there was tacit agreement, after Leyland gave up building coachwork, for business to pass almost automatically to MCCW.

David Oldfield

26/12/11 – 17:49

Tynemouth and Wakefield’s ‘Northern General’ had some AEC’s with this type of Weymann body, and Northern’s first 8ft wide buses were GUY Arab’s with a very similar body but with sliding cab door. When I started at Percy Main I did my training on one of them, the fleet number was 189 FT? ?89. It had a crash box, and you needed a block and tackle to steer it. One of them went to Chester Le Street depot where it became a full fronted dual control vehicle.

Ronnie Hoye

26/12/11 – 17:50

FLOATING BRIDGE took quite a while to disappear from the bus blinds, and local speech, too. Undoubtedly, it was old and worn out, but it was a shame it wasn’t replaced with a larger version which would have carried more vehicles. It was a tourist attraction, too. It’s hard to believe that the A27 between Portsmouth and Southampton (Itchen) also had a floating bridge until supplanted by a bridge in 1977, even though bridge plans had existed since 1936!

Chris Hebbron

26/12/11 – 18:51

Thank you Ronnie for that magnificent description of the action necessary to deal with heavy steering – its tickled me and I’ll be chuckling all evening now !!

Chris Youhill

27/12/11 – 18:09

Further to the comments above concerning Weymann bodies on chassis other than AEC, it is not difficult to find other post war exceptions to this tendency, but I never knew that Leyland deliberately tried to "dissuade" customers from purchasing non Leyland bodywork, as David so vividly points out!
In the pre-war period, the Leyland/Weymann combination was perhaps more common, the Plymouth fleet coming to mind, as well as those handsome full front TD5s of Bournemouth.
I also recall some comment in "Buses" in 1954, when Leyland had announced the end of bus body building, that MCW was the natural successor, a fact perhaps born out in the integral developments such as the Olympic/Olympian, and some of the lead up to the Atlantean.
If anything, Park Royal would seem to have been more "in league" with AEC in the pre-war period, the balance shifting towards Weymann in the post war era.
Classic Weymann bodies look magnificent on any chassis really, and my mind is so easily led to the pre-war Bradford fleet, where Weymann bodied Daimler COG 6s were a common sight.
Of all the many coachbuilders which we remember, Weymann must rank as the all time "classic", as they kept their basic trade mark shape and profile from 1932, with the original Rackham inspired design, until the Aurora styles of the mid 1950s, which, for a time, ran concurrently with the newly introduced "Orion"

John Whitaker

27/12/11 – 20:53

John. Source for the "squared off" Leyland comment is Doug Jack’s "Leyland Bus" and for AEC/Weymann cooperation "Weymann Story Part 1" (Senior, Townsin and Banks). This book also quotes a tendency, in the immediate pre-war period, for senior staff to move jobs freely between Addlestone and West London.
Park Royal emerged from the ashes of Hall Lewis in 1931 but were only acquired by AEC/ACV in 1949. Weymann produced a one off, none to handsome, body for the prototype Regent which was exhibited at the Motor Show.
This became Sheffield Transport 66. It was after this that the first version of the classic Weymann design emerged – the first of many for Sheffield, but only on AEC until 1953, after which Leylands were also bodied for STD.
The Leyland /MCCW link was only really broken after Leyland "merged" with ACV in 1962 – after which Leyland/Park Royal-Roe was the preferred one stop choice.

David Oldfield

28/12/11 – 15:49

To add to the very knowledgeable comments made by John and David on the Weymann classical body of the thirties, forties and early fifties. a good livery such as Portsmouth Corporation was the "icing-on-the-cake" to show this body style at its best.
Sadly Weymann lost the plot in the mid fifties when their Orion body appeared, and despite some good liveries applied by some operators, this body was never in the same league as the their earlier classical-style body.
The Portsmouth Leyland PD1/1A Weymann was a gem, exuded quality and was very long lasting. In modern day language, it was a "value for money" bus.

Richard Fieldhouse

28/12/11 – 17:16

Just as a postscript to David,s comments on Leyland,s strategy to supply the all Leyland product, there is evidence to suggest that bodybuilding and chassis production were never of equal capacity, which is what surprised me about the undoubted truth which David has highlighted in this matter.
Regarding the relationship between AEC, Weymann, and Park Royal before the post war mergers, I would be interested to learn whether this was any more than just a friendly association. I have been counting up the bodies on AEC demonstrators pre-war, and Park Royal seems to have a lead there, if that is anything to go by.
All very "interesting stuff", and, as Richard says, what magnificent vehicles (Weymanns) were, especially when adorned by a livery as attractive as that of PCT.

John Whitaker

28/12/11 – 18:17

More to the point, why did Leyland not have confidence in what was universally regarded as one of the best bodies around (style AND quality).
The Weymann book and the Hall Lewis/Park Royal web-site show the fascinating and labyrinthine connections between each other and AEC – let alone the ECW, Roe and Roberts connections (nearly forty years before British Leyland).

David Oldfield

30/12/11 – 07:39

Maybe the alliances and associations were purely pragmatic. Imagine Blankchester Corporation saying EITHER (1) "we want 30 standard 56-seat deckers, and the all-important criterion is that they are delivered by 30 June next year." OR (2) "we want 30 PD2s (or Regent IIIs or whatever). We are not in a great hurry but we insist on the bodies being provided by XYZ in order to support local industry." Sensible manufacturers reply (1) "We can do it, provided you are happy to accept bodies from JKL or QRS, who are the only manufacturers who can supply bodies within your timescale." or (2) "We are happy to fit XYZ bodies in order to secure your business." The daft ones say "It is our corporate policy only to associate with our own chosen partners, so we can’t meet your delivery schedule/we are not prepared to fit XYZ bodies – and you can like it or lump it!" Sooner or later they go (or went!) out of business.

Stephen Ford

30/12/11 – 08:55

…..but Stephen. That sounds just like the barmy idea of current coachbuilders (especially COACH builders) hitching their waggons to just one chassis – thus depriving twice as many people of their preferred vehicles.

David Oldfield

30/12/11 – 14:05

Adopting a ‘take it or leave it’ policy Eg the Leyland National, and giving the customer little or no choice in the matter proved to be the eventual downfall of the British commercial vehicle industry. For example, did you know that when AEC became part of British Leyland, they had a design on the drawing board for a totally new lorry but it was rejected because the new Ergomatic cab was being introduced more or less across the board, and Leyland wanted to standardise production, so the design was sold to SAAB, it became the SCANIA 80 and 100, and later the 111, the rest as they say is history.

Ronnie Hoye

30/12/11 – 17:08

You’re absolutely correct, Ronnie. British Leyland, as distinct from Leyland Motors, went a long way to destroy local industry – helped by the National Bus Company and then, ironically, by Baroness Thatcher when she broke up NBC with privatisation and deregulation.
There was a LOT of good in the Leyland Leopard but the AEC Reliance, particularly AH691/760s, was vastly superior. The AN68 Atlantean was an excellent bus but the consensus is that it would have had a run for its money had the FRM gone into production.
Then, of course, both Scania and DAF had licences to build the 0.600/0.680 engines – but ended up doing it so much better. DAF/PACCAR’s MX engine, originally based on the Leyland, is a world beater.
There are even more examples in the private car sector.

David Oldfield

31/12/11 – 07:32

I, too, have often thought that the FRM could well have dominated the rear-engined bus scene, had it gone into production. Dearer though it might have been, the fact that it was only a slightly modified RM, with a reliable pedigree, gave it the chance to sweep the board. Sadly, there were vested interests at work. Yet another might-have-been!

Chris Hebbron

11/01/12 – 06:50

Lovely to see this view of No 188 passing through the Guildhall Square, also the Cravens bodied trolleybus in another contribution here. I suggest that the picture date is a bit before 1962, nearer 1959/60. The bus still has a grey roof, and does not have flashing trafficators as far as I can see. The Corporation gave the motorbus fleet white roofs on repaint from late 1959/early 1960, and the exercise was completed by 1963 (apart from the odd older vehicle due for withdrawal, like vee-fronted Leyland TD4 No 129 (ex-127), withdrawn with grey roof in 1964). All the trolleybuses remained grey roofed until the end in July 1963. The simple lining out on the red paintwork, and the chromed radiator make the vehicle a proud sight. Some of the batch had painted radiators. When I was a young enthusiast, and read Buses Illustrated, there were several letters and contributions c.1958-60 about PD1 versus PD2 engines and performance – the PD1 always came off worst! In the early 1980’s (c.1985?) one member of the batch survived in a corner of a field with some other ex-CPPTD stock at Waltham Chase, on the Wickham / Bishops Waltham road B2177. I have no idea whether any of these survived or who was keeping them.

Michael Hampton

02/02/12 – 07:06

I was brought up in Portsmouth in the 60s and have clear recollections of this batch regularly taking us to the football grounds off of Eastern Road from Northern Grammar school for PE lessons. I remember seeing many of them delicensed in the side shed at Gladys Avenue Depot. interestingly one of the batch became a trainer bus at North End and was nicknamed Gladys! The bus referred to at Waltham Chase happily survives under the care of CPPTD.

Mark Southgate

07/05/12 – 09:26

I used to get the 145 bus each day from North End to Old Portsmouth. Cost 3d (three pence) from 1961 to 1971. The destination was Floating Bridge, although I never knew what that was, changed to "Point, Old Portsmouth". Some buses in the early sixties also had letters. The A and B route along Commercial Rd for example, then became 1 and 2. Same route, different directions! Late night buses, "North End only", would go to the Gladys Ave depot. Also Fratton Park specials from North End to "Football Ground".

Jules

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/07/17 – 06:52

I’ve just come across a wonderful colour photo of a sister vehicle to 188, taken at North End Depot in 1966, on the cusp of being withdrawn the same year. It says so much of Portsmouth Corporation’s high standards that it could turn out a vehicle almost 20 years old, almost as good as new to look at. Note the white roof, which the corporation restored after WWII, in the early ’60’s.

Chris Hebbron

06/07/17 – 07:29

The steam powered vehicle transporting floating bridge ran between Gosport Ferry and Portsmouth Point, where the old landing stage can still be seen. Like the still running Sandbanks ferry in Dorset, it functioned by winding itself across by engaging chains laid on the floor of the harbour. It began operating in 1840 and received a new vessel, the Alexandra, in 1864, and she lingered on, spasmodically in the last years, until 1959. I lived near Gosport during the years 1949 to 1952, and remember it well, though I never actually travelled on it. Nowadays the Gosport peninsula is a traffic nightmare, and a vehicle crossing facility would surely be useful.

Roger Cox

Copyright Roger Cox

Bickers of Coddenham
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

In 1969 Bickers bought two Guy GS buses, MXX 356 and 360 which were GS56 and GS60 in the London Transport fleet. Here is a picture of them in 1975. The following year they were both sold into preservation, though I believe that neither has been seen about in the last few years. Unless you know different that is, you know how to get in touch.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

21/12/11 – 20:05

Give me a big engined AEC or Leyland any day but these big hearted babies are full of character and deserve their place among the preservation greats. These two look a little mat paint/MOD and well used. Even more testimony to their initially build quality – but they look even better in LT/Country green, gleaming on a running day.
The modern day equivalent is a Mercedes Vario or IVECO Daily. In the words of one of my choir, who spent his professional life working for Tilling subsidiaries, "I know which ones will last longer."

David Oldfield

22/12/11 – 06:24

I drove the Tillingbourne examples of the GS in the Guildford area, and I found them to be delightfully robust, positive little machines, though the clanky sounding Perkins P6 engine didn’t impress me very much. The GS was another of those buses with a "right to left" wrong way round gearbox, and I have always wondered who made it. Was it a Guy box, or something from another maker?
Also, was it yet another manifestation of London Transport’s flat earth outlook that led it to commission Guy to manufacture a specially designed 26 seat model? Dennis had been producing successful buses of this type for years, and the LGOC had purchased a fleet of around forty Darts in the 1930s. The logical move for LT in the 1950s would surely have been to obtain a P6 powered version of the established Falcon. The GS was (indeed still is – there are lots still around) a really good little bus, but I remain perplexed that it was ever ordered in the first place.

Roger Cox

22/12/11 – 06:25

GS’s were certainly a hybrid ‘special. Based on a modified Guy Vixen chassis, it sported a Perkins P6 indirect-injection, 65 bhp engine, with 4-speed crash gearbox. It was a rare example of London Transport buying an ECW body, which it was supposed to buy in preference to other makes. However, off-hand, I can only think of RFW’s as the other example in post-war years. Even so, LTE put their stamp on it, as it bore a remarkable resemblance to the RF body at the rear.

Chris Hebbron

22/12/11 – 06:26

There are some others from the same batch which survived for a fair time but not in a very good way. See them here www.travellerhomes.co.uk/ 
At least they had long and useful lives and as David says, they are rather attractive and purposeful souls.

Richard Leaman

22/12/11 – 08:25

As Roger says LT always had some rather odd ideas – the prewar rear engined Leyland CRs spring to mind with only twenty seats AND a conductor !! I too have always admired the little GS class, surely one of the most handsome small buses ever.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 07:00

The CR’s were designed for OMO, but, post-war, with the huge increase in passengers, those OMO routes in Central Area were either abandoned/absorbed into other, busier routes or served by full-sized buses, rendering these ‘babies’ surplus. However, they were spread about and used, as a last resort, to replace full-sized vehicles which had failed, hence the two-man crews. Ill-suited to intensive work, and under-developed, they often crumpled under the strain. I made one journey, on just one, in such a situation. It coped!

Chris Hebbron

23/12/11 – 09:37

Thanks for that Chris H – that’s something I never knew despite owning much bookware about LT – you’re never too old to learn as they say.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 12:11

A nice coincidence is that Leyland’s light 6-cyl diesel used in the CR had the same bore and stroke (3.5" x 5.0") as the Perkins P6 used by Guy in the GS. Both engines were indirect injection and shared that light tinkling "threepenny bits" combustion note. The only ride I’ve ever had in a CR was at Cobham (held at Chobham) a few years ago, and the engine sound was remarkably Perkins-like. Another thing I learnt that day: the big-diameter rear hub houses not a double-reduction gear but a universal joint, so the CR evidently didn’t have a beam axle.

Ian Thompson

24/12/11 – 06:36

Douglas Corporation ran some Guy Gs style buses with Mulliner bodywork. They were fitted with large upright destination screens front and rear. This gave rise to their nickname of Wolsey’s camels after the then manager. Douglas also bought what I think are the only Leyland Comets in municipal service.

Chris Hough

24/12/11 – 06:40

Chris Hebbron – re LT buying ECW bodies, there was also SLT 59, (CRL4/RMC4), the first Green Line Routemaster.

Bob Gell

24/12/11 – 06:41

One unusual feature of the CR was a De Dion rear axle, with a universal joint at both ends of the half-shafts. I’ve no idea why it was fitted, maybe to produce a more stable ride for the engine at the rear. Here is a photo and diagram of how it worked (These axles were made from the 1890’s into this century without much change. Sports cars had them, but production cars like the Rover 2000 had it, too). See //www.light-motor-cars.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 09:54

Thx, Bob, for the titbit on SLT 59. ECW must have struggled to meet that order on time! I always thought it looked smart with its framed side lower-deck windows, but had a feeling that the full-width lower rear window looked as if it wasn’t centred properly, or was that my imagination?

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 13:12

There are pictures of SLT 59 on the web including www.londonbuspage.com/ which has this and KGJ 603D which is obligingly pictured from the rear with what also appears to be an off-centre rear window: is this to stiffen the corner by the rear door?
Does anyone know anything about the ECW (presumably) system on the VR which sucked all the cig ends and packets out of the upper deck through a port at the back? Now that’s innovation….

Joe

10/11/12 – 06:51

In the 1980s I owned GS 36 it was a joy to drive once you got used to the gearbox, double de clutch comes to mind, sorry I sold it.

Stuart

04/01/13 – 08:51

On 2/5/10 I took the above picture although I cannot remember where I took it. As I had retired to Cornwall in 2008 and was visiting all the shows I can only assume that it was in Cornwall. I used your site to try and identify the model and any other details available and when I selected the Guy GS model found a photo of 2 buses under the heading of Bickers of Coddenham and comments that the picture was from 1975 and with registration numbers MXX 356 and MXX 360. It further stated that the buses had been sold into preservation but not seen in the last few years. As the photo I took has MXX on its plate unfortunately the numbers are hidden. I just thought that it may possibly be one the buses in a new livery so I forwarded it for any information possible.

Warren Farrer

04/01/13 – 13:03

This bus is in the distinctive livery of West Bromwich Corporation, and you can just make out the fleet number 252. The registration would be MXX 340. It was acquired from London Transport in 1961.

Alan Murray-Rust

11/02/15 – 14:03

This is all new to me. I am enjoying the various photos and comments. On the Home page there are photos of the Guy Specials. Although the original contributions were some 3 years ago, the attached may be of interest showing the only GS painted into Tillingbourne blue seen at Rusper on the service to Horsham on 1. 7. 1972. The driver may well be your contributor Roger Cox. Thanks to the driver for the ride.

Keith Newton

12/02/15 – 06:35

Welcome, Keith and thx for your photo. It certainly looks very odd out of LT colours!

Chris Hebbron

12/02/15 – 06:35

No, it’s not me, Keith. MXX 364, ex GS64, was the only GS painted in the then new blue Tillingbourne livery shown in your picture. It was out stationed for a time at Horsham (on a rotational basis with one of the SUs) for the Horsham-Rusper circular route. Although I did drive the SU4LAs on this service, I didn’t take GS64 in its new livery. This was the last GS bought by Tillingbourne  (in April 1971) and the last to be operated, being withdrawn in October 1972.

Roger Cox

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/02/15 – 07:35

Here is another Tillingbourne GS, MXX 382, ex GS82, seen in Horsham Carfax when ‘On Hire’ to North Downs Rural Transport in 1971. It is in the revised livery initially adopted by Trevor Brown in September 1970 when he took over Tillingbourne Valley from the Trice family who had run the business since 1924. Later, the blue livery shown above in Keith’s picture replaced the maroon, though MXX 382 was never so repainted, being withdrawn in March 1972. North Downs itself, after struggling with low revenues and maintenance issues, finally expired on 17 April 1972, whereupon the Horsham services became part of the Tillingbourne network.

Roger Cox

19/02/15 – 10:34

The history of all the London Transport GS Class can be found at the excellent "Ian’s Bus Stop" website at this link: www.countrybus.org/GS/GSa

Chris Hebbron

24/02/15 – 14:13

David Call is right. Stage was the highest category and the most demanding. Express was in the middle and the lowest category was contract. I worked in the Metropolitan Traffic Area’s PSV licensing team in 1963 and 1964, and I handled very few contract PSV licences.
One oddity about the Metropolitan Traffic Area was that it did not handle licensing of drivers or conductors, which was handled by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police. Another was that London Transport not only trained their own drivers, but tested them as well!

David Wragg

24/02/15 – 16:12

My original PSV was passed in London in 1967. In 1972 I moved back to Manchester and when my licence came up for renewal I had to surrender my ‘N’ badge for a ‘CC’ one. The new one was a bit slow coming so I went along to the office in Manchester to enquire why.
It turned out that the Civil Service Union was on a work-to-rule and they would not issue the new one until they received the 2/6d. deposit on my old one from London. When I protested that I could not work (the law stated that it had to be worn) because they did not trust the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to return my 2/6d the supervisor was called. After some argument, the supervisor’s supervisor was called and nobody could think of a rule that stopped my paying again. They kindly allowed me to do this and promised they would refund me when they received the original deposit. Still waiting… (Maybe I should write to the Prime Minister and Sir Bernard whatsit-Howe about why the south is so much richer than the north!)

John Hodkinson

25/02/15 – 06:02

David Wragg says it was ”an oddity for London Transport to test their own Drivers”
Not so, Designated Examiners were common practice in the larger Companies, and Municipal Undertakings, and still are.
There was a specified number of Drivers who had to be employed, I think 300, to qualify for one, and the Examiner was not to be the same person as the one who undertook the Training.
This was to alleviate the pressure off the Ministry of Transport.
In the past there were no separate Department of Transport Driving Examiners, PSV Tests were carried out by the Area Certifying Officer (The Ministry Man).
He would re-certify a few vehicles in the morning, and then carry out a few PSV Driving Tests in the afternoon, or visa versa. At Oldham Corporation I seem to recall it was a Tuesday.
Also you did not get a pass or fail off him, and no pass certificate. He just said he would make his recommendation to The Traffic Commissioner and you would hear in due course.
You did not know if you had passed until your Licence and Badge arrived.

Stephen Howarth