Copyright Bob Gell

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1954
AEC Regent III
Park Royal H30/26R

This photograph was taken in Summer 1969, at a very familiar location in Hull and it shows 170/2 OTV165/7 of the KHCT fleet.
During 1967, KHCT acquired no less than 36 of these Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs from Nottingham City Transport, exactly half of the batch of 72 such vehicles registered OTV 127 to OTV 198 and delivered to Nottingham City Transport between June 1953 and October 1954. They were numbered 150 to 185 by Hull, but not one of them had a Hull fleet number that matched its registration! The front destinations were altered to Hull specification; the rear ones were panelled over. They were withdrawn by Hull between 1970 and 1972. One vehicle, 157 (OTV 137) then became a training vehicle, and still survives; it can usually be seen at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum, restored to its original NCT livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

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15/03/12 – 09:30

What an evocative picture, even if they are not native KHCT buses, how well the streamline livery sits on them! The location is, of course, the Coach Station in Collier Street. How lucky we were in Hull to have a coach station; instead of a mundane bus station, like other places. It was called coach station from being opened in 1935, this in spite of the fact that KHCT never owned any coaches for general service until the 1980’s! 170 has just arrived from Orchard Park via Beverley Road on the circular service 17C, whilst 172 is arriving from Willerby road on service 81. I recall OTV 137 at Sandtoft in the early 1980’s carrying the streamline livery of KHCT.

Keith Easton

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15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember them new in Nottingham, where they ousted the pre-war Regents on the Bilborough, Broxtowe and Strelley services (13, 16, 16A, 30, 32, 56, 60, 62). In fact Bilborough depot’s allocation was almost entirely from this series. They also filtered onto a few other individual routes. I am pretty sure they never or rarely appeared on the Arnold group of services (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57) which retained pre-war vehicles until the arrival of the exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955-56.

Stephen Ford

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15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember these coming to Hull and causing me a lot of confusion, or at least the one that survives did. I saw it (157) and in my mind matched registration number to fleet number. I happened to go to Nottingham later that same day and was somewhat surprised to find OTV 157 running there. It was a little while after before I realised my mistake and that I hadn’t seen the same bus working for two operators on the same day!

David Beilby

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15/03/12 – 12:09

In addition to these ex Nottingham buses Hull also bought ex St Helens RTs (see here) one of which BDJ 87 is preserved at the Lathalmond Museum in Saints livery. In addition Hull bought ex Newcastle Daimlers with Birmingham style bodywork (see here) and some AEC Regent IIIs also with MCW bodywork from Leicester.

Chris Hough

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16/03/12 – 07:27

In addition to Nottingham selling these to Hull three of the batch went to Grimsby-Cleethorpes. I remember conducting on them and thinking they seemed pretty archaic compared to our Bridgemasters.

Philip Carlton

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16/03/12 – 12:46

The Grimsby-Cleethorpes trio were OTV 159/161/163, purchased by GCT in 1967 to replace their 3 1946 RT Regents, 80-82 (JV 9900-9902). The Nottingham vehicles initially took over these three running numbers, but then became 112-114 in 1969 to release the earlier numbers for new Daimler Fleetlines.

Stephen Ford

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19/03/12 – 09:24

Stephen – As you say, the OTVs were the basic allocation at Bilborough depot for most of their time in Nottm; the remainder of the batch was based at Parliament St and spent most of their time on the Beeston rota. After trolleybus conversion, they also appeared on Wells Rd routes 40 and 47 until withdrawn. I also never saw any on the Arnold (Sherwood depot) routes.
Philip – I agree your comment about these appearing archaic; I have subsequently found in Alan Townsin’s TPC book on Park Royal that these vehicles had been due for delivery in 1950, hence the 5 bay bodies, half drop windows, and late 40s, early 50s style interiors, with varnished/polished wood, which were a world away from the Park Royal Regent Vs delivered in 1955/6. But at least they were 8’wide!

Bob Gell

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21/04/12 – 08:39

One of the trio of OTVs sold to Grimsby Cleethorpes also survives in preservation. The bus concerned is Nottingham 161, which can be seen at the GCR Heritage Centre at Ruddington, near Nottingham. It is also restored to Nottingham’s green with cream bands livery.
The original order for the buses that became the OTVs was for 112 buses, placed in 1948 for delivery from 1950. When the 72 OTVs came in 1953/54 the chassis had to be shortened to 26 feet from 27 feet (one foot removed from the rear overhang) to suit the Park Royal bodies which, at 26 feet long, were to the pre 1951 legal length for a two axle double decker. The choice of a five bay body must have been down to Nottingham as Park Royal had a four bay body for the Regent III in production from 1947 (examples supplied to Huddersfield, Morecombe and West Bridgford). The choice may have been to standardise on the half drop windows used, which were as used in the BUT 9641T trolleybuses. Another feature, also seen on the 9641T trolleybuses, was the placing of the batteries under the stairs (as with the RT) rather than in cradles on the chassis side (as with Nottingham Met-Cam and Roberts bodied Regent). The 72 vehicle were almost identical. Variations were 150 with its opening front upper deck windows and the last deliveries of 1954, which had to have a second rear lamp to meet changed legislation fitted. This was incorporated in the bottom of the grab rail positioned against the back platform window. The balance of the 112 were received as the ten SAUs and the 30 UTVs.
The OTVs did certainly dominate the allocation at Bilborough Depot, which, from memory, was from about bus 156 to bus 198, until replaced by NAU and RTO Fleetlines in the middle 1960s. Bulwell also had its Roberts bodied Regents replaced by Fleetlines (RTOs) about 1964. The others were based at Parliament Street and were used on a variety of services including the Beestons, the West Bridgfords, the Sneinton Dales and the 25 and 58. From my observations Parliament Street’s share of the Arnold services were worked by PD2s, but what worked these prior to the arrival of the PD2s? Prior to the arrival of the Regent Fives Sherwood had an allocation of the Daimlers with both Brush and Roberts bodies.

Michael Elliott

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21/04/12 – 11:49

Thanks Michael. I don’t actually ever remember seeing PD2s on the Arnold routes. My recollection is of wall-to-wall Regent Vs from 1956, prior to which memory says that they were operated by pre-war Regents (Metro-Cammell and Cravens). However I have seen enough photos to convince me that my memory is not infallible! – Daimler CVD6s were also used. It is also certain that the 10 was often singled out for the left-overs – utility CWA6s or second hand pre-war Halifax Regents. Also, in the early 50s, the Redhill route that became the 57 was one end of a cross-city 4/4A from Beeston, often served by 1948 Metro-Cammells. Similarly, the 3 Sneinton Dale was originally a cross-city service, starting at Radford (Addington Road) and at that time invariably pre-war Regents. Both the 3 and 4/4A were split in two, I guess, around 1952/53, Redhill becoming 57, Radford 58, and a new extension beyond the Sneinton Dale terminus of the 3 became 59.
The Parliament Street OTVs were also widely used on the Trinity Square-Bestwood area services (6, 17, 18, 28) and the Gordon Road routes (9, 23, 54, 65).

Stephen Ford

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01/05/12 – 07:06

Hi Stephen – The link between Beeston and Arnold dated back to April 1933 when service 4 was linked to services 10 & 20. At that time service number 4 was used for the Beeston to Nottingham part of the journey and 10 or 20 used for the journey through to Arnold. Service 10 ran via Mansfield Road past the Home Brewery to Redhill Road then via Redhill Road to the Mellors Road junction. Service 20 ran via Mansfield Road then via Nottingham Road (Arnold), Front Street, Church Street and Mellors Road to the Redhill Road junction.At this time all journeys between Beeston and Nottingham whether by via Derby Road or Castle Boulevard were service 4 until 2nd April 1944 when journeys via Castle Boulevard became 4A. When the Arnold tram service was converted to bus operation from 6 September 1936 service number 10 was used for the service between the Old Market Square and Valley Road, Sherwood. Service 20 still operated between Mellors Road but ran through to Trent Bridge via Arkwright Street. The service to Redhill Road via Mansfield Road then became the 4, running through from Beeston (via either Derby Road or Castle Blvd). The split between Beeston and Arnold took place from 25th May 1952 when the 57 was introduced between the Old Market Square and Redhill and the 4/4A became solely a service between Beeston and the Old Market Square.
Through operation by service 3 between Sneinton Dale and Addington Road, Radford ceased from 12th April 1953 when service 58 was introduced between South Parade and Radford.

Michael Elliott

Copyright Ken Jones

Eastern Belle Motor Coaches (London)
1953
AEC Regal III 6821A
Duple C39F

I am a contributor to Focus Transport main site, their blogsite and other sites, I hired a 1950’s AEC half canopy as part of my 60th birthday celebrations to take invited guests for lunch in a 1928 Pullman Carriage at the Spotgate Inn in Staffordshire (www.spotgateinn.co.uk)
With no heating the guests survived low temperatures in the morning and the snow on the way home, but everyone had a great time. Very atmospheric.
The vehicle is part of the Roger Burdett collection, and stopped in two suburbs in Birmingham as well as Lichfield to collect guests on the way to the restaurant and followed the same route back.
The pictures were taken on arrival at the Spotgate Inn and just before departure back to the West Midlands. Most guests took pictures of the vehicle – the first time for nearly all of them that they had travelled on such a vehicle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

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11/03/12 – 09:17

My word, what a truly magnificent vehicle – that well worn word "classic" must surely apply here – and in a livery uncannily like that of Samuel Ledgard. They say that "you learn something new every day" and I believe its the first time I’ve ever seen a thirty foot long Regal or even been aware of such a variant. It must surely be one of the most handsome vehicles of the "good old days."

Chris Youhill

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11/03/12 – 19:35

Very impressive. It might be the camera angle, but it looks a very long vehicle!

Chris Hebbron

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11/03/12 – 19:51

As Chris says a true classic and what a fine vehicle. It is however surprising that a half cab design was selected for such a quality heavyweight coach as late as 1953 as underfloor models had been readily available for a couple of years by then. I agree 30ft long half cab coaches were pretty rare. Other examples I can immediately recall were a batch of Guy Arab half cabs with Roe coach bodies bought by Lancashire United for the Tyne-Tees-Mersey service about the same time.

Philip Halstead

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12/03/12 – 06:44

Now you DO surprise me, Chris Y. What about the 1953 Doncaster 30′ Roe bodied Regal IIIs? (…..and I thought one of those had been preserved). The bodies are almost identical to the West Riding 30′ Roe bodied PS2s. PS2s and 9.6 Regal IIIs were rarer than PS1s and "7.7" as were 30′ rarer that 27’6" – but there were still appreciable numbers.

David Oldfield

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David Beilby

Crossley produced 54 30-foot long chassis. However, nearly all of the received full-front bodies, with only eight being of the traditional half-cab layout. Coach design was in an experimental phase at this time, as ten for the USAF had raised rear saloons and a further three were half-deckers.

David Beilby

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12/03/12 – 16:04

Yes, David – I’d also thought of the Doncaster 30ft Regals. However, in defence of Chris Y, they had a straight-sided profile with deep windows which didn’t emphasise the length. However, this beautiful Eastern Belle example looks like a 27’6 version stretched to 30′. Indeed, I now see that EFE made a model of this coach, but using their 27’6" mould with six side windows instead of the Eastern Belle’s seven. I wonder if, in 1953, the Duple staff had to delve into the back of the stores to find the patterns and templates for this late example from a different era. A rash question to our knowledgeable readers, but was this the last curved-sided half-cab ever made?

Paul Haywood

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12/03/12 – 16:05

Here an example of a Lancashire United Guy Philip alluded to. The Roe body is not dramatically different from the Duple style. They were built in 1950.
https://secure.flickr.com/ For some reason the page does not display correctly in IE you will have to scroll down to find the picture all other browsers work fine.

Chris Hebbron

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12/03/12 – 17:17

What Ken did not mention but makes it rarer is that it is 7ft 6ins not 8ft. The West Riding PS2s from 1953 (I have one of those as well) are much bigger vehicles and 8ft

Roger (rbctc)

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12/03/12 – 19:08

There’s a picture of the West Riding Leyland half cab mentioned above at //www.focustransport.org.uk she’s commonly referred to as Ethel because of her registration plate

Ken Jones

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13/03/12 – 06:37

Barton Transport had a Duple A coach body which they lengthened themselves to a 30ft 39 seater as part of their BTS1 re-building programme, I think it was the only only one which retained a half cab body. No doubt they had lots of spare body parts from all their alterations but perhaps it wasn’t as easy as may be thought, I imagine it would have involved altering the body pillars to correspond with the increased wheelbase but the side window pattern on the finished product was exactly the same as on the one above.

Chris Barker

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13/03/12 – 06:38

Don’t forget the possibly largest batch (?) of 30 foot half cab coaches, Royal Blue’s 1951 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F, 24 in number.

Dave Williamson

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14/03/12 – 06:54

In my last post, I forgot about the further 14 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F which Southern/Western National acquired in 1951 for their own fleets.

Dave Williamson

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15/03/12 – 09:30

Again though the Royal Blue Ls were 8ft.

Roger (rbctc)

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15/03/12 – 12:07

……..and nothing as late as 1953. Unless someone knows different?

Paul Haywood

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16/03/12 – 07:23

David O. mentions the three Roe-bodied 30′ Regal III’s for Doncaster. According to the PSV Circle’s chassis list for the type, the previous three chassis numbers to these were three seemingly identical Roe-bodied buses supplied to the Belfast Steamship Co. of Liverpool. I have never otherwise heard anything else about these buses, or ever seen photographs of them. Does anyone have any information about these totally overlooked machines?
The list shows around 50 Regals with seating capacities of 37 or over, so which were probably of the longer length – surprisingly AEC did not give them a different chassis code.
There were 108 Leyland PS2 30-footers:
12 Roe-bodied buses for West Riding.
6 Roe-bodied coaches for West Riding (with the similar bodies to the LUT Arabs).
71 buses for C.I.E. (with their own bodies)
14 East Lancs-bodied buses for Burnley, Colne and Nelson.
1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Wilkinson’s, Sedgefield.
1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Harding’s, Birkenhead.
1 Heaver-bodied coach for City Coach Co.
2 Observation Coaches for U.T.A. bodied by themselves.
The City Coach and U.T.A. examples were six-wheelers with a temporary additional lightweight front axle, to legitimise their 30′ length prior to the relaxation in the length limit. They were designed to be removed when this came into force.

John Stringer

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16/03/12 – 08:36

C H Roe (Geoff Lumb) p82 shows a Belfast Battle, sorry, Steamship bus – of 1954. These are quoted as being the same as the 1953 Doncaster examples. I believe that there were earlier 27’6" examples before and also Regal IVs.

David Oldfield

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17/03/12 – 16:31

This Eastern Belle coach (NXL 847) was the company’s second similar vehicle. In 1951, they had taken MLC 343, a photo of which is included in Eric Ogden’s ‘Duple’ book.
Were the Royal Blues 8 feet wide? The LL chassis was the 7ft 6in version, the 8ft option being the LWL. Southern/Western National introduced white steering wheels to denote 8 feet wide vehicles; the photos I’ve seen of the Royal Blue LL6B coaches have the traditional black steering wheels.
There were more than the 108 30 foot PS2 Tigers listed by John Stringer. In the PSV Circle Leyland PS2 chassis list, as well as those 108, 44 of the PS2/3 are quoted as 30 feet long, with the note that ‘there may be others’. It seems that early production 30 footers were conversions from the shorter models (Doug Jack’s ‘The Leyland Bus’).

Dave Williamson

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18/03/12 – 07:55

My Duple L LTA 898 has a white steering wheel and whilst I would not stake my life savings on it I think is 8ft.
On the PS2 8ft vehicles most were buses and I think only the West Riding were 1953

Roger (rbctc)

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18/03/12 – 09:00

I rather think white steering wheels to remind drivers that the vehicle was 8ft wide was standard Bristol practice.

Roy Burke

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19/03/12 – 09:10

West Riding’s last PS2s came in 1953 some of these had Roe coach bodies Burnley continued to buy PS2s until 1955 and these (fitted for OMO) lasted until the early seventies

Chris Hough

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19/03/12 – 17:28

Two of the contributors to this thread mentioned the Regal IIIs supplied to Doncaster Corporation.

I’m happy to attach a photo of number 22, taken at it’s home at Sandtoft Transport centre.

Andrew Charles

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20/03/12 – 16:01

What great pictures, Andrew, of a superb and beautifully preserved vehicle. 22 is just fabulous, and shows how well Doncaster’s livery could look when clean and fresh, which, at the risk of offending anyone, I have to say it often wasn’t. The use of front-engined vehicles for one-man operation was, I think, quite rare. It must have required some twisting and turning for the driver.

Roy Burke

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21/03/12 – 07:28

As Roy rightly says, the use of front engined vehicles for one person operation was comparatively rare, but certainly not rare enough. The degree of contortion necessary for the driver at every stop was totally unacceptable and must have been the cause of spinal and inner organ damage. Much scoffing is aimed these days at "Health & Safety" which can admittedly sometimes be over the top, but in this particular instance it should have been applied with full force to prevent this ludicrous practice.
I should juts clarify that I’m referring to front engined vehicles of the traditional layout – a modern exception of course being the wonderful, in my humble view and from experience, Ailsa Volvo double decker – a vehicle whose incredibly skilful design allowed a front engine, adequate passenger flow on the platform, comfortable room for the driver, and 79 seated passengers conveyed reasonably speedily by a 6.7 litre engine. I’ve always had the feeling that the sales figures of the Ailsa were mortally wounded by the unreasonable fear of the layout which the ill fated Guy Wulfrunian left as its legacy.

Chris Youhill

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21/03/12 – 07:29

Am I correct in thinking that an operator called Homeland Tours bought a number of 30ft Leyland Comets? I’m sure I’ve seen a picture somewhere, I would imagine they really were unique!

Chris Barker

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22/03/12 – 08:07

Re Chris’s comments about the Ailsa, I don’t think anyone would make comparisons with the Wulfrunian because it was well documented that the problems there were caused by Guy overreaching itself with advanced braking and suspension systems.
What operators probably were fearful of was the small turbocharged engine, an idea which was virtually unknown in Britain then. In other words, a bus ahead of its time.

Peter Williamson

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22/03/12 – 13:35

There were some outstanding bus liveries around and one nomination I would give is to West Bromwich Corporation, witness the preserved Daimler CVG6-30 seen HERE: https://secure.flickr.com Pity that, whenever I caught glimpses of them lurking around in Brum, they were always as tatty as Hell! It didn’t help that B’ham Corp’n generally kept their vehicles impeccable.

Chris Hebbron

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22/03/12 – 13:36

Homeland Tours was an operator based in Croydon during the post war years who had a number of Leyland Comets with Strachans C37F bodies. As a schoolboy in the Croydon area in the 1950s, I used to see these coaches about frequently. I believe that these vehicles were actually owned and operated by Wallace Arnold to whom Homeland had "passed" the licences and goodwill. Homeland Tours still exists as a travel agent in Croydon.

Roger Cox

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23/03/12 – 06:40

Regarding the Ailsa Peter, the engine theory is an interesting one which I hadn’t thought of. In the event though, any concerns about the performance and longevity of those tiny Volvo engines have proved to be unfounded, and the performance of their immediate successors leaves me full of admiration. For example, the speed at which the Volvo B7TLs ascend Royal Park Road (very steep) on the 56 service in Leeds with around ninety passengers, while confidently changing gear upwards, is nothing short of amazing – those long in the tooth like me recall the 7.7 litre Mark V AEC Regents whistling, wheezing and protesting at little more than walking pace when heavily loaded.

Chris Youhill

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23/03/12 – 09:33

Thanks, Chris H for the link to the West Bromwich Daimler. A very smart vehicle indeed. It made me think about other liveries, and I wondered what other correspondents’ favourites might be. East Yorkshire’s indigo and primrose has its fans, and from my own neck of the woods, York Pullman was always both smart and attractive, (and it still exists). Any nominations?

Roy Burke

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23/03/12 – 16:43

Sheffields smart cream and blue always smartly turned out was a favourite The many variations in the late lamented Black Prince livery again always smart Pennine Motors unusual orange and black The LCT one man livery was always smart though often dirty Others will no doubt have their own choices. One other to mention is the Leeds blue and cream pre-war livery on both buses and trams examples of which happily survive.

Chris Hough

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24/03/12 – 09:16

Just one more from me then, City of Oxford. This photo of an AEC Regent III with Weymann lowbridge body (a pseudo LT RLH) shows of its livery superbly. See HERE: //www.fotolibra.com/

Chris Hebbron

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24/03/12 – 12:17

Indeed many of us have our favourite "traditional" liveries, and with good cause, when we have to live with some of today’s ghastly and inappropriate offering, most of which make me despair as to where the Industry is going. I just wish the "marketing" fraternity would stick to promoting baked beans etc. and that operators would cease wasting so much money on garish and incomprehensible horrors which the travelling public are probably unaware of and totally disinterested in. Rant over, but not for long, as I feel so strongly about this issue that I can rarely get it out of my mind.
Now then, another favourite livery or two of mine – Southend Corporation’s beautiful light blue and rich cream, especially when they spent their money wisely against the 1960s trend by increasing the number of places on the intermediate destination blinds from three to six – the expression "getting your priorities right" springs to mind. How about the most dignified Accrington Corporation dark navy and red – different and sombre, yes, but most impressive.

Chris Youhill

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24/03/12 – 18:12

Yes Chris, Accrington’s was indeed a most dignified and distinctive livery. I once read in a book somewhere that it was first applied after World War I, as a mark of respect to the many Accrington Pals killed in action. Their regimental colours were red and blue with gold lining. It is also said that the mudguards of the buses were painted black at the same time, as a sign of mourning. However, other operators also had buses with black mudguards over the years, so I’m not quite so sure about the latter. A very touching tribute nonetheless though, to such brave men.

Brendan Smith

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25/03/12 – 09:11

I agree with Chris Youhill’s hatred of modern corporate colour schemes (I hesitate to grace them with the title "liveries"). My particular dislike is having windows plastered with stupid advertising tosh. WINDOWS ARE FOR LOOKING OUT OF! If they want to cover them over they may as well save on glass and just panel the sides in altogether (as they have the rear of many vehicles).

Stephen Ford

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25/03/12 – 09:12

I’m waiting for Chris Y to vote for South Yorkshire Motors, (from West Yorkshire) whose Oxford/Cambridge blue was very handsome & well maintained despite the age of some of the vehicles. As someone said, Doncaster’s Crimson Lake was potentially good, but attacked by filthy roads around collieries until it went a sort of dark maroon. Doncaster’s old livery never had any names- just the coat of arms. The old umbery East Midlands had a mention here- but it was dropped for the ultimate in boring. Perhaps the most horrific "new" livery was South Yorkshire Transport’s (not to be confused) Yuk yellow & red, with some dreadful graphics. What a far cry….

Joe

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25/03/12 – 09:13

The Accrington livery up to the late sixties also included black window surrounds on the lower saloon, which I always think set it off. This may be the black that was referred to rather than the wings.

David Beilby

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25/03/12 – 12:07

As many will know Joe, I spent my last fourteen years with South Yorkshire Road Transport (and several successors) at Pontefract Depot. The vehicles were indeed well maintained and smart, inside and out, and I can’t imagine many private firms employing a team of four daytime lady cleaners Monday to Friday to keep the interiors of around twenty vehicles in pristine order. These splendid ladies left no stone unturned and could often be seen on their knees washing with difficulty the seat support rails and other areas usually unknown to the average cleaner elsewhere. There honestly were amusing occasions when a vehicle had to be rapidly collected from the depot for an unexpected changeover – I have personally experienced leaping into a cab and setting off promptly for the bus station to hear an anguished cry from up aloft – "Just a minute luv", and two of the worthy ladies would come downstairs with buckets and mops and alight just in time to avoid being whisked away to Doncaster or Barnsley !! The original South Yorkshire Motors livery of two blues and rich cream with traditional fleetname was indeed a classic one. When the Company was reconstituted (still under family ownership) as South Yorkshire Road Transport Limited the livery gave way to the familiar modern one of two blues and stark white ir-rational (to me) rectangular shapes, and bold white large fleetnames. Rumour has it that the white shape of the lower forward panel was to emphasise the presence of the front wheels which I suppose had some merit – but I have to say that I found the new livery to be a retrograde step and I didn’t particularly like its layout and the stark white.

Chris Youhill

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26/03/12 – 07:44

Here Here Chris re. modern liveries! Absolutely awful.
You mention the superb Southend pale blue and cream, laid out in traditional fashion. It was enough to inspire Bradford to change in 1942 when they borrowed some Southend trolleys.
I think the best traditional liveries were those employed by the Tilling Group, but perhaps my own personal all-time favourite was the deep green with cream stripes of that wonderful AEC fleet, Morecambe and Heysham Corporation, which showed off the lines of classic Park Royal and Weymann bodywork with real flair.
Them wer t`days all right

John Whitaker

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26/03/12 – 10:34

I recall the attractive M & H livery on one visit there, with typical ‘tramway’ lettering and fleet numbers. The buses had no route numbers/letters.

Chris Hebbron

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01/04/12 – 08:43

I had the chance to ride on this excellent coach again today and got a picture of the engine. I do hope it is of interest to you.

Ken Jones

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29/04/12 – 16:56

I was at the Irish Transport Heritage Bus & Coach rally at Cultra, Holywood, Co. Down on 28th April and saw it tucked away. A lovely example and a welcome visitor. I didn’t get the best shot but here is a link to my photo on Flickr //www.flickr.com/

Robin Parkes

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03/05/12 – 08:48

600 mile round trip to take Eastern Belle to Belfast with 20 passengers-must be one of the longest trips for a half-cab in 2012 and it ran perfectly.

Roger rbc

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05/01/13 – 15:40

Whilst (laboriously) digitising my slide collection I came across this view of NXL 847 – then in a two-tone green livery – as it prepared to depart from the HCVC Brighton Rally in 1973.

John Stringer

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06/01/13 – 11:19

1973 was the year I graduated from University and NXL 847 "Eastern Belle" belonged to Waltham Forest Council Welfare Services at the time.
– Thanks to Roger Burdett – current owner for this information

Ken Jones

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16/11/13 – 11:06

Having been born in Bow, East London I remember Eastern Belle Coaches very well. In the fifties our street would book a coach with eastern belle to take us to see the Southend Lights. I also remember their garage being a very crampt premises on the Bow Road. I took my first car there for an MOT in the early sixties and remember seeing two redundant dust covered AECs wallowing in the corner.
I am now 70 years old but never forget these lovely well kept vehicles.

B Greaves

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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15/04/16 – 09:19

Re the comment posted by John Stringer (16/03/12) regarding, the two "observation coaches" built on PS2 chassis by the UTA they were eventually rebuilt (along with many other PS2’s) into PD2/10C deckers with UTA 60 seat bodies. Curiously both survive in this format – one is preserved and the other is a former playbus.

Bill Headley

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16/04/16 – 06:10

Further to John S’s post above (16/3/12) here’s a rear shot of PKD 588, one of the Belfast Steamship Regals. www.britishcommercialvehiclemuseum.com/

David Call

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16/04/16 – 06:11

I see this old thread has risen again, thanks to a wonderful view from Bill Headley. Thank you for posting! I note the exchanges of thought about the Ailsa. I’m not sure if the claim is still made (if it ever was!) but I seem to remember the Volvo cars were designed for a 22 year life. No wonder their bus engines performed as healthily as CY reports!

Pete Davies

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16/04/16 – 09:15

Not true of the B6 engine, Pete. The B6 was a dreadful attempt at a Dart clone, and a complete abomination.

Roger Cox

Copyright Roger Cox

Oldham Corporation
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/30
Roe H37/28R

We don’t seem to have any colour pictures of Oldham buses on the site, so I am submitting these two shots, taken early in PTE days. By the time these pictures were taken, the Oldham livery had been further simplified by the elimination of the red stripe above the lower deck windows. Oldham used a distinctive shade of red that was usually described as "pommard" after the wine of that name. PBU 947, No. 447, was a PD2/30 of the 1958 batch of 24 with Roe bodies, though my understanding is that the seating was H37/28R. Perhaps these buses were reseated at some stage.

Copyright Roger Cox

NBU 500, No 400, was a member of a batch of 20 PD2/20 delivered in 1957 with Roe H33/27R bodies. The year 1965 was a significant one to Oldham. In that year a Ministry of Transport inspection led to the discovery of major mechanical faults on 97 buses, and the Corporation had to hire in around 45 buses from sympathetic neighbouring municipalities.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

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04/03/12 – 17:08

Good to see Oldham represented again and with typical vehicles – Roe-bodied Leylands. If these pictures are taken in SELNEC days it must be early 1970 as the fleet very rapidly lost the coat-of-arms and fleetname upstairs, all had lost these by July 1970. 447 got repainted orange and white in January 1971 and was the last Roe-bodied PD2 to be so treated. Unlike the earlier examples it didn’t receive a full overhaul and only lasted until July 1973. 400 was renumbered 5300 in October 1970 but despite running in increasingly shabby pommard and cream it outlasted 447, being withdrawn in March 1974.
Your photos allow the two batches to be contrasted. I could usually identify with some confidence which batch an oncoming vehicle was from but even now I struggle to be able to explain why. One difference visible here which worked as a general rule was the painted ventilators but like all good rules it had exceptions. Other differences were the staircase window which was never fitted to the PBUs but quite a few NBUs lost this feature.
When new the NBUs had pull-down half-drop ventilators which were a disaster. These were replaced by sliders which had a much thinner bottom rail than on the PBUs, making them less conspicuous. You can just about make out the vestigial framework for the half-drops on 400, which remained in situ.
The 59 was a joint Manchester and Oldham service from Manchester via Middleton to Oldham and Shaw. Taking 74 minutes from one end to the other it was certainly Oldham’s longest (in running time) route and I think Manchester’s as well.

David Beilby

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04/03/12 – 17:26

I rather liked the company name/coat of arms positioned where it is on these buses. I have to say, I don’t think that I’ve ever seen a ‘tin-front’ like these. Was it unique to these vehicles or Roe?

Chris Hebbron

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05/03/12 – 07:42

The 59 was an incredibly circuitous route which left Manchester in almost the exact opposite direction to Oldham and Shaw which are north east of the city. It headed north west towards Bury along Cheetham Hill Road then turned towards Middleton via Heaton Park and Rhodes. It had almost ‘boxed the compass’ before it got to Middleton. The no. 2 from Stevenson Square to Newhey, which passed Shaw (Wrens Nest) the eventual terminus of the 59 would do the journey in around 40 minutes I would guess.
In fairness to the 59 it was not intended to attract end to end passengers but provided very useful inter-urban links across areas to the north of Manchester.
To answer Chris the unusual ‘tin front’ on these PD2’s was a retro-fit by Oldham after a few years in service. They were delivered with the standard Leyland BMMO front but sometime in the early 1960’s (from memory and I would bow to confirmation on this) the centre grill sections were replaced with the design shown in the photographs. In my view it was a great improvement. I think the replacement section was a glass-fibre moulding but again would welcome a second opinion on this.
The failure by the MOT Inspectors of such a large slice of Oldham’s fleet caused quite a stir at the time and was widely covered in the ordinary (non-transport)press and media. In today’s blame culture I am sure heads would have been called for. I don’t ever recall the press reporting anybody at Oldham ‘falling on his sword’. Does anyone know if there any such actions taken?

Philip Halstead

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05/03/12 – 07:44

This was Oldham’s own GRP (fibreglass being a trade name) front which they developed. The original one was flat like the standard BMMO grille but I suspect this was not stiff enough so the slight protrusion was added. Oldham were quite active in GRP moulding and also did the side pieces, the design of that varying over the years.
The revised front grille became quite universal. From recollection the last bus with a BMMO grille was 453, withdrawn in 1970. They had been in the minority for some years before then.

David Beilby

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05/03/12 – 07:45

The "kidney" window in the staircase panel on Roe bodies, which I believe was part of the safety staircase designed by Leeds City Transport general manager Mr. W. Vane Morland in 1935, was a common feature on many Roe bodies up to about 1954 but seemed to fall out of favour after then, so it is a bit of a surprise to see Oldham Corporation still taking them as late as 1957. Does anybody know if these where the last ones built or did other operators have any delivered later?

Eric

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05/03/12 – 07:46

The tin fronts were Oldham-built replacements for damaged originals, and for my money a great improvement on them. Combined with the Roe body they even make the pommard livery look respectable, which is quite an achievement as it was not generally well-liked.

Peter Williamson

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05/03/12 – 07:48

Beautiful Roe bodies and a distinctive livery, but I think I preferred their neighbours in blue at Ashton. I think you are correct, Chris – but I think it was an Oldham rather than Roe front.
PS …..see previous black and white post of 451 with standard Leyland tin front!

David Oldfield

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05/03/12 – 12:33

Eric, I think you’re correct. Sheffield’s 1955 Regent IIIs had the window but the 1957 and 1958 PD2s didn’t and neither didn’t any subsequent Roe bodies.

David Oldfield

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05/03/12 – 17:53

Leeds first AEC Regent Vs of 1956-57 had the staircase window and were the last Leeds buses delivered with this feature. In the mid fifties all Leeds MCW bodies also had a staircase window this was a narrow slit like vertical affair.

Chris Hough

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06/03/12 – 08:22

Strange to say, the staircase window reappeared in Sheffield with the front entrance Regent Vs, "Sheffield" Park Royals and then the "Sheffield/PRV standard" 33′ Atlanteans and Fleetlines – but all with tinted glass.

David Oldfield

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06/03/12 – 12:27

Ah, the tinted glass would be the then modern equivalent of ‘decency boards’ protecting the modesty of Victorian/Edwardian ladies.
The offside straight staircase’d London General/Transport ST’s and later LT’s had glazed windows down the whole length of the offside when built, but, over the years, the rearmost pane was replaced by a painted pane. One imagines voyeurs waiting opposite bus stops for the sight of a trim ankle, or more titillating, a calf! It all seems so amusing nowadays.

Chris Hebbron

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06/03/12 – 15:22

Am I right in saying in connection with the staircase window was the Roe safety staircase. This had a flat landing halfway up the staircase which in theory would prevent someone rolling in to the road. Did anybody get saved by this?

Philip Carlton

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07/03/12 – 08:40

The PBU batch of Leyland Titan buses (419-462) were distinctive in that they carried the Leyland winged badge until repainted in 1964/5. The number plates were located higher up the original tin fronts (above air vents) than on earlier batches also. The Leyland/Roe vehicles (429-452) featured decorative beading, painted white, aside the two upper red stripes which resulted in slightly narrower ones than on, for example, the 388-407 (NBU batch)
To the critical eye, another distinctive features were angled front saloon windows, rather than horizontal as on 388-407. The side window vents were polishes aluminium which also made them stand out as mentioned earlier by David Beilby.

D. Butterworth

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07/03/12 – 15:17

There is always so much to learn on this site. Until Chris Hebbron mentioned the image of a voyeur trying to catch the sight of a calf mounting the stairs of an ST/LT, I had never appreciated that London Transport permitted young farm animals to use the upper saloon.

John Stringer

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07/03/12 – 16:12

Well, John, if they wanted to smoke they would have to, wouldn’t they?!

Stephen Ford

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07/03/12 – 16:53

The correct name for the livery is Pommard and Devon Cream, and was introduced in 1966, after the very short lived ‘Blue’ livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402).
Mention is made of the positioning of the Fleet Name and Crest. This was done as a cost saving measure to save replacements (of the crest) when accidents occurred to the lower side panels and replacements had to be re-fixed.
I also remember that in the Paint Shop (always an interesting place, supervised by the Foreman Sam Bardsley), that there were replacement lower deck panels painted and varnish ready for quick replacement by the body men. Again this was so vehicles spent less time off the road after lower panel accident damage.
Mention is made of the Ministry of Transport fleet check in 1965.
I started at OCPTD in 1968, as Junior Works Clerk and the ‘Fleet Check’ was still being talked about even then.
Many of the systems which I worked on had been brought about after that, and procedures in the workshops and the Depot had been tightened up.
Philip says ‘did heads roll’ well YES they did, but it was never made public, I will not name names even though it is now 47 years ago, they could still be around.

Stephen Howarth

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07/03/12 – 16:57

The Roe bodied PBU’s also had a more upright front profile when viewed side on than the NBU’s. Obviously this was necessary to get the extra row of four seats in to give 37 seats on the upper deck against the 33 on the NBU’s.

Philip Halstead

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08/03/12 – 07:09

Nice ones, John & Stephen F. My comment was even more amusing than I thought!
And, Stephen H, thx for the reason behind the fleet name/crest not being on the lower panels – a sensible variance.

Chris Hebbron

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09/03/12 – 17:25

Interestingly, around 1970 the Leyland PD2’s reappeared on certain trunk/express routes in all day service having earlier been relegated to other duties in preference to Leyland Atlantean operation.
There are photographs available of 402 – NBU 502 (the blue bus) and 430, PBU 930 on service 9 (Ashton to Rochdale) and Leylands 402 and 437 on the OTS route- Hollinwood Lees/Grotton. The previous years (from 1965 had seen Atlantean operation only on the O/T (27/28) routes, I seem to remember. I have photographs of 461 and forward entranced Leyland PD3 101 on the 98 (Manchester to Waterhead) service around 1970, after a long period dominated by the Atlanteans. Indeed when 131-135 were obtained in February 1966 they were put to work immediately on this route, quickly followed by 136-147 later that year. In April 1970 our local route (21) was converted to OPO with the arrival of dual door Atlanteans 183 to 187. Twelve months later Selnec liveried 188 to 199 arrived and many of these buses could be noted on the route besides the earlier Atlanteans 178 to 182. This marked the end of the PD2’s on the route. For some reason 191 and 192 ended up in Ashton bus depot! Obviously transferred on delivery, but they later appeared in Oldham.

D. Butterworth

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15/03/12 – 09:30

Further to my previous comments regarding the Leyland Atlanteans which replaced the PD2s on many routes, the numbers allocated were 5183 – 5199 in the SELNEC, (Southern) Fleet allocation, which would have been OLDHAM’S 183 – 199.

D. Butterworth

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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23/09/12 – 19:53

I was a driver on Oldham Buses from 1961 & through the 60’s, was quite surprised by photo’s and comments, particularly the 1965 shot after the ministry man came into do his worse. Interestingly, we then drove many buses far worse than our own. The Blue Livery was sponsored by the Egg Marketing Board. Which I believe were given that "Go to work on an Egg" advert printed on the 2 buses with the fleet numbers 401 & 402. The then manager Harry Taylor flirted with idea of the livery but it was unsuccessful. Then the Atlanteans, Selnec etc etc. I moved on to other things and some time later was a HGV & PSV examiner based at Heywood HGV Centre. A local firm had bought 3 PD1 fleet numbers 264 & I think 266 & 268. Not the easiest to teach on. Happy days!

Terry Bailey