Copyright Pete Davies

Pennine Motor Services
1962
Leyland Leopard
Duple DP41F

Here is a photo of 5895 YG, Leyland Leopard with Duple body, in the fleet of Pennine Motor Services, then in Gargrave. I took the photo in Morecambe in June 1970. Note the SALOPIA vehicle alongside.
This vehicle was the last of four of this style, the other three being on Tiger Cubs UWX 277, 6108 WU and 9712 WX, so close inspection shows subtle changes over the years. The next new addition was 240 CWY, which Roger Cox posted elsewhere on the site a while ago.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

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15/08/12 – 08:06

Herewith the conundrum as to what constitutes a C or a DP. Yelloway thought they were too bus like and only bought one batch but most things, including the entrance door, make this look more like a C than a DP. The same thing befell the Sheffield Transport Leopard/Burlinghams which were DP because they were based on a modified bus design rather than the Seagull – but they were really just as much coaches as their Weymann Fanfare and ECW contemporaries.

David Oldfield

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15/08/12 – 11:34

Interesting point, David. From an operational point of view, the issue of whether a vehicle was a C or a DP generally depended on three factors: use, seating and livery. As OMO became more prevalent, provincial operators realised that front entrances enabled relatively easy and cheaper downgrading, especially if the eventual fate of new vehicles was considered when they were bought.
As for external appearance, a sensitive compromise was needed: too bus like, and passengers might feel they were being offered second best if they expected a coach; too coach like could mean problems displaying stage carriage destinations later in life.

Roy Burke

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15/08/12 – 11:55

I’m not sure if it was still known as the ‘Donnington’ by this time but it definitely improved with age (like we do!) When it was first introduced, it had too many shallow side windows, perhaps a throwback to the old ‘Roadmaster’ design. This one, with just five deeper side windows is a great improvement and looks very nice. Yelloways were of the original design which would explain why they didn’t like them!

Chris Barker

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15/08/12 – 14:47

The screen and front dome of the Donnington were shared with contemporary Willowbrook Viscount (cf Devon General). [Interesting how Duple recycled two Willowbrook names – Viceroy and Viscount.]

David Oldfield

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15/08/12 – 14:48

The five bay version was known as the Donington 2 and was used by, among others, MacBraynes. I produced a resin kit of it in fact!
The design was built by the Duple Midland operation and was effectively superseded by the Britannia, which was very popular and shared the same front grille mouldings.

Andrew Goodwin

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16/08/12 – 07:33

The correct spelling is Donington with one "n" – the body was named after the Donington Park motor-racing circuit close to the Duple Midland works in Loughborough. Donnington with "two ns" is in Shropshire.
As you say this version of the Donington (actually its third incarnation since the first prototype was built in 1956 – the first version was built from 1957-58 and lacked the "chain" motif in the front panel) is by far the most attractive due to the deeper windows.
I’m left a bit confused by the comment that "the Donington was replaced by the Britannia". The Britannia design was first introduced in 1956 and the last were produced in 1962, the same year in which the Donington was deleted from the Duple catalogue. Both models were replaced for the 1963 season by a choice of either the (Hendon built) Commodore or (Blackpool built) Commander. Dual purpose options then became the preserve of the Willowbrook subsidiary and were built to "BET standard" design.

Neville Mercer

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16/08/12 – 14:24

Yes Neville, I assumed that the draughtsmen who wrote "Donington" on the drawings knew what they were doing!
I didn’t actually say it was replaced by the Britannia but my choice of words was perhaps unfortunate. What I meant to convey was the relative popularity of the Britannia as against the Donington leaving the latter with fewer sales.
As you will no doubt tell us there were at least three versions of the Britannia as well!
Reference the comment above about Willowbrook model names being recycled, Park Royal also did this with the name Royalist though the second version was anything but successful, not helped by being initially built on a second-string chassis rather than a front line player.

Andrew Goodwin

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17/08/12 – 07:07

You’re quite right, Andrew, there were several versions of the Britannia. The original version, brought to market in 1956 to replace the Elizabethan, had a curved waist-rail and introduced the "chain motif" to the Duple range. All of this first version had front entrances, but were offered alongside the Britannic which had a central entrance and retained more of the styling of the Elizabethan. The Britannic was quietly dropped from the catalogue in 1957 and few were sold.
The second version of the Britannia formed part of a new range of designs exhibited at the 1958 CMS at Earls Court and shared many components with the new version of the Super Vega built on Bedford SB chassis. Basically similar bodies (but at that stage nameless) were also offered on Ford and Commer chassis. As far as I can tell from my own records the Mk II Britannia was only available with a front entrance at first, but from 1960 onwards a new central entrance design with a much more curved profile at the front end was also offered. The most famous of these were probably the examples operated by Samuelsons in London and St Helens Corporation.
There were minor detail changes to both front and central entrance versions in 1961, but you really have to look hard to see the difference – a tiny destination blind incorporated into the front bumper is the most visible clue.
By 1962 orders for both Britannias and for the Donington had reduced to a trickle due to competitive pressure from the much more stylish offerings from Plaxton and Harrington. Duple realised that it was losing its share of the heavyweight coach market, dumped the Britannia, Donington, Willowbrook Viking and Viscount, and the entire sadly bastardised Burlingham range from the catalogue, and replaced the lot with the Commander (with vertical window pillars) and the short-lived Commodore (with a "Bella" style raked back pillar towards the rear).
Sorry to go on, but as you might have noticed I have a thing about pre-1965 coach designs!

Neville Mercer

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17/08/12 – 07:08

David and Roy have a valid point. Shortly after I joined Armstrong Galley ‘the coaching division of T&W PTE’ we took delivery of 15 Leyland Leopards GBB 985/999N fleet numbers 85/99 – 86/95 were 53 seaters with DP doors, but still had the comfort and overall look of a coach, and 96/99 were 45 seaters with coach doors, However, 85 was a totally different animal, it was in actual fact the first Alexander ‘T’ type ‘rumour has it that one or two of the Scottish bus group companies weren’t too pleased about it going to T&W’ but back to the plot, the vehicle itself was first class, but with the best will in the world it was a bus with coach seats. A/G did quite a lot of hire work for National Travel,and a fair amount of contract work, so 85 was always first choice for that, it was later transferred to the stage carriage fleet, and I think it was sold on after that

Ronnie Hoye

Sorry, should have said that the 14 coaches were Duple bodied

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17/08/12 – 07:11

Externally all forms of the Donington look like buses to me, except when dolled up with Britannia/Vega trim, as here //sct61.org.uk/  It’s amazing what a few bits of metal and an association of ideas can do!

Peter Williamson

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21/08/12 – 07:41

Castle Donington (one n in the middle!). The village has long suffered having people mis-spell its name, just as many folk think it is in Derbyshire because of the postal address, but it is in Leicestershire.
The Duple Donington body. Duple purchased the business of Nudd Brothers and Lockyer in 1952, renaming it Duple (Midland) Motor Bodies. Nudd’s premises were a hanger on the former Castle Donington airfield, now East Midlands Airport. Nudd had experience of metal framed bodywork, hence the Duple interest and the name of the design of the Duple metal framed body. The technology of the time may have resulted in the rather angular design and the small windows used at first.

Mr Anon

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01/08/14 – 16:29

I found the comment on ‘DP’ v ‘C’ interesting, as I’ve never been quite sure where the difference lay, and there are clearly several ‘grey areas’. One of my main questions is how the Ribble PDR1 ‘White Lady’ Atlanteans justify the designation ‘coach’, at least among enthusiasts. The roughly contemporary Leopards with BET-style bodies by Marshall and MCW are always referred to as ‘DP’, though in terms of comfort, style or usage there was little to distinguish them from the Altlanteans; if anything the Leopards were marginally more coach-like internally and ventured further afield. But both types were effectively buses fitted with headrest seats and luggage racks, and consequently had the claustrophobic feel of being packed with a lot of stuff that they were not really designed for. Both were mainly used on relatively short inter-urban express services, at least one of which (the X43 Manchester-Skipton) was actually a stage carriage route at its country end. Doses it really just boil down to the double-deckers’ almost all-ivory livery, compared with rather more red on the saloons? But then in NBC days the Atlanteans (by then well past their unimpressive best) were given service bus livery, while the Leopards got the DP treatment! Was it just that the Atlanteans hijacked the justified ‘C’ designation of their upmarket cousins, the ‘Gay Hostesses’? And as for the earlier generation of Titan ‘White Ladies’ — though admittedly I’m too young to remember very much about them — how could anything lowbridge ever really be called a coach, however much chrome you put on the outside?

Keith

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15/10/19 – 05:48

This coach finished it’s day parked along the workshop at Berresford Motors Limited in the role of mess room. I believe it was still in situ when the business was sold to PMT.

Leekensian

Copyright Pete Davies

Hants & Dorset Motor Services 
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

In case readers were thinking the bulk of my photographs are of operators in the Midlands and North of England, here is something to balance matters. GRU978D was a Bristol FLF6B in the Hants & Dorset fleet. She is seen on the sunny morning of 29 May 1970, and is at Hamble Square, ready to return to Woolston on the 81.
I believe she went to the USA when withdrawn.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

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14/08/12 – 06:51

As a young enthusiast on the south coast, Hants and Dorset was my nearest Tilling operator, often seen at Fareham, and Southampton. In those days, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies (BTC, then THC) were all "much the same". That was before the impact of NBC – then we really knew what "all the same" meant! Here in the south, I reflect that it was possible to distinguish between the green Tilling companies (Hants and Dorset, Southern/Western National, Bristol Omnibus) or red ones (Wilts and Dorset, Thames Valley) by little idiosyncrasies as fleet number application (plates or transfers), the obvious registration letters used, and even destination indicator styles. Although the screen layout was an evolving national policy, somehow the style of the text differed between these operators – or was it just my imagination!? Several of these fleets also contained a number of vehicles unique to themselves. At Hants and Dorset, there were all-Leyland PD2s (highbridge), some NCME-bodied Regents (diverted from Western SMT), and H&D’s own open-top rebuilds with full-fronts. I think these bodies started on some pre-war Bristol Ks, and were transferred successively over a few years to some war-time Ks, and finally to some post-war Ks. These bodies, I believe, were rebuilt by H&D’s works from the original Brush bodies supplied pre-war (as ordinary half-cab double-deckers). So the FLF in the picture would have been "standard viewing" at the time, but brings great pleasure now. Incidentally, the name Hants and Dorset has disappeared, but the company became owned by Wilts and Dorset after privatisation (a reversal of the NBC era, when H&D controlled W&D!). But under modern W&D control, the H&D subsidiary is now called "Damory Coaches". While in Weymouth last week, I photographed two Olympians – but they weren’t sailing – just waiting near the King’s Statue on the seafront for their return journey on their Olympic charter. Much too modern for this site, but they did look proud in the sunshine.

Michael Hampton

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14/08/12 – 11:37

Have no history whatsoever with Hants & Dorset, but always preferred the Bristol engine. H & D had some of the rare (late) Leyland engined FLFs. I only learned recently that this option was put on the list after the Bristol engine was removed from it.
Looking at this picture though, it shows the perfect proportions of the FLF body. Balance and symmetry are always the basis of a good design.

David Oldfield

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14/08/12 – 11:39

Rob Sly has an excellent website listing preserved Bristol Lodekka buses, VR, LH and RE. This bus did go to USA and was red in 2011 which is the last update – full details at //bcv.robsly.com/

Ken Jones

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15/08/12 – 07:55

As far as I’m aware, one of the main reasons Northern bought Routemasters was United’s introduction of this type of Loddeka onto the routes they operated jointly. Northerns RD Park Royal PD2’s were getting a bit long in the tooth, and although the PDR1 Atlantean had been in service with Northern for a couple of years it was decided to go for the Routemaster instead. Being a BET company, Northern never had any of these, but that all changed with the formation of NBC, when for reasons best known to the powers that be, long established fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards. I cant remember the exact number, but at Percy Main we had some Daimler Fleetlines transferred to United in exchange for Loddeka’s, but they only stayed a matter of a few weeks and were replaced by the AEC Renowns that came from East Yorkshire, the Bristol’s going on to other depots. I remember one or two drivers being caught out by the gearbox, where it wasn’t possible to go into neutral from fifth without going through forth. Digressing back to fleet reshuffles, some depots got buses from as far afield East Kent and Maidstone and District, make sense of that if you can.

Ronnie Hoye

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15/08/12 – 07:56

On the fringes (in two respects) to what Michael H said about name changes, I notice that neighbour Wilts & Dorset are re-naming their Bournemouth and Poole operation ‘MORE’! Bizarre!

Chris Hebbron

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15/08/12 – 07:57

Can’t help but agree with you David, on the ‘just right’ proportions of the FLF. Handsome machines from any angle. Hants & Dorset did indeed have some FLFs with Leyland (0.600) engines, as did Wilts & Dorset. Interestingly, both fleets also specified semi-auto gearboxes to mate up with them. I could never understand however, why H&D had to change it’s livery from green to red under NBC ownership. Surely it can’t have been to differentiate between the H&D and Provincial (green) fleets. A similar fate befell West Riding Auto up here in the ‘Olympic Medal County’ of Yorkshire, where WR’s green fleet went red under NBC. Strangely, this meant that its fleet livery was then the same as associate company Yorkshire Woollen District, which retained its red. Maybe someone could explain?!

Brendan Smith

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15/08/12 – 11:30

Chris H, there are rumblings that the name SALISBURY REDS is being extended from just the company’s activities in that City to Romsey and other routes as well, while MORE is being extended from Bournemouth and Poole to include Lymington. It’s being said that the W&D name will vanish (again) from bus sides, though I understand that it will remain as the legal lettering.

Brendan, going on from that, the history of Wilts & Dorset to 1972 includes a reference to the green to red transition of Hants & Dorset. It has nothing to do with trying to distinguish from Provincial. When the joint management of H&D/W&D were told that the W&D name was to be dropped, they were so disgusted by the dropping of such a highly respected name they decided "We’re going red".

Pete Davies

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15/08/12 – 11:31

No logic in the halls of NBC Brendan. Maroon East Midland became leaf green.

David Oldfield

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15/08/12 – 14:55

Wasn’t NBC policy a poor attempt at LT/Greenline… Country services to be green, urban services red? If I recall, a lot of the "used" Wulfrunian replacements at WR had arrived in green… and I think stayed that way…?? Anyway, privatised WR went back to green, if not the same one…. Of course, WR had once been part red anyway!

Joe

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19/08/12 – 07:52

This must be the smartest design of all ECW double decker Bristols

Jim Hepburn

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19/08/12 – 07:54

David, I seem to remember that East Midland (maroon) absorbed Mansfield District (green), is that when East Midland went green?

Vernon Ford

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19/08/12 – 08:30

That’s very true, Vernon – but it’s no excuse! [I read recently a theory that NBC went green for rural and red for urban – but that doesn’t explain Hants & Dorset going from green to red!] …..and of course the blues (East Yorkshire and Midland General) had to go red.
None of this would have been half so bad if Tilling Red, Green and Cream had been retained. Visually – and on quality – they were better than Leaf Green and Poppy Red which faded within the year.

David Oldfield

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19/08/12 – 12:00

I seem to recall reading somewhere that certain bus companies which had their origins in tramways, and which had not set up a separate company later to operate buses, were therefore statutory companies (i.e. set up by Acts of Parliament). The Acts specified in very minute detail the activities of the operator and in some cases this could even specify the livery that would be used (though obviously not in the majority of cases as many tramway operators changed their liveries). I believe Mansfield District was such a case, and the green livery on the bus fleet could only be changed by another Act of Parliament, which would have been too much hassle, so when East Midland took them over it was easier to adopt a green livery for the entire fleet. Has anyone else heard of this?

John Stringer

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19/08/12 – 15:05

This may be right- I think, John S, that tramways regulations were why West Riding ran a red fleet on the old tram routes, and there might be some obscure connection with the centre entrances?

Joe

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20/08/12 – 07:59

John, regarding your comments on statutory companies and Acts Of Parliament, I seem to recall reading something similar about Provincial surviving as a fleet in its own right for a similar reason, after acquisition by NBC. Even though Provincial came under Hants & Dorset administrative control, the fleetname and green livery were retained, whereas Wilts & Dorset, a larger NBC subsidiary, was swept away altogether under NBC ‘rationalisation’. If the above is correct, was another Act of Parliament actually passed when NBC was privatised? If it wasn’t, on a mischievous note, wouldn’t it be nice to inform First Group that Provincial’s fleetname and livery must be reinstated….?

Brendan Smith

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20/08/12 – 08:00

Joe, am I right in thinking that West Riding trams were red and buses green? (why the difference? – a subsidiary company operated the buses to start with?? [time to consult bookshelf!]) and this difference perpetuated on the Wakefield-Leeds tram-replacement buses because those services operated "jointly" with the Rothwell-Leeds services of LCT. Red WR buses could carry local passengers, green buses could not. I think the distinction was ended after LCT bought out Wallace Arnold’s Kippax & District (also Farsley Omnibus Co) operations: a coordination agreement (see V4 of John Soper’s/LTHS’s excellent history of LCT et al) was subsequently entered into in respect of the Leeds-Garforth corridor, which allowed (green) WR buses to carry local passengers – so the retention of red buses on the "track" was pointless, although as there were still WR services that couldn’t pick up in Leeds I suppose WR could have painted Leeds-Garforth buses in red as well. Whatever, with all these (in many cases poorly advertised) restricted carrying arrangements – which varied from town to town – in force is it any wonder that passengers deserted the bus?

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I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that this red "urban"/green "rural" NBC livery theory is a load of tosh – Alder Valley (a new company) went red – and it’s territory can hardly be described as urban – as did East Yorkshire (ditto, country-wise) when it changed colour. Cumberland, Ribble, West Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, East Kent (and the previously-mentioned Hants & Dorset) – all with large rural areas stayed/went red. I remember reading, many years ago when the privatisation BA livery was introduced, that even office furniture down to desk tidies was changed: the logic being that corporate means the same throughout, down to the last item. I’ve read that NBC (and their design consultants!) wanted to go "poppy red all over" but that that the managers of green fleets put forward a strong-enough case for that colour to be retained. The blue fleets weren’t so lucky, in the long run: no standard blue was decided on and the choice of colour was left down to the Regional Chairman: Stratford Blue had gone by this time; Midland General was told to go red, after a period in which it painted it’s buses in NBC-style "Balfour Beatty" blue; EYMS and Sunderland District were allowed to stay (their own) blue by the Regional Chairman ([sic] I think, as NBC seemed to have a habit of changing Regional boundaries around this time), but Sunderland District was then absorbed by Northern – and that just left EYMS with a non-standard indigo livery, which then succumbed . . . except for plucky little Jones. Now I’ve heard that when the directors of Jones sold out to NBC they insisted that the the Jones identity AND blue be preserved for ten years – would that fit in with when the Jones identity disappeared under MAP? Wholly-urban Provincial and (OK, this is pushing it) Bristol Joint Services and "Bath Services" stayed green, and indeed, Cheltenham District went green. Red "urban". green "rural"? – seems like a London-centric fixation.

Philip Rushworth

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20/08/12 – 09:06

Nah, Philip. My body’s down south but my heart’s still in the north.

David Oldfield

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20/08/12 – 11:40

Nay Philip, I haven’t a clue. West Riding buses were green except the red ones on the old tram routes- Leeds and, I think, Ossett. These had centre entrances and, I think, double staircases (like trams?!) An early example of route branding, but can anyone confirm the fundamental reason? Was it passenger co-ordination, or tramway legislation? After all, Yorks Woollen latterly ran into Leeds in red….
I still think that deep in the NBC head office was the belief that buses were born either green or red, and green ones ran in leafy suburbs. The fact that this didn’t work across the country was only realised later….

Joe

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20/08/12 – 13:56

Just a small point arising from Philip Rushworth’s comment on Alder Valley. When Aldershot and District was, in effect, taken over by Thames Valley – one of the best BET companies being swallowed up by one of the worst BTC ones – to form Alder Valley in January 1972, the livery initially adopted was maroon, on the rather tenuous pretext that this was the colour formed by mixing TV red and A&D green. London Country Bus Services next door already used a green livery, so that, when the dead hand of Freddy Wood’s standardisation came to be applied, the maroon became red.

Roger Cox

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20/08/12 – 13:58

Brendan, When the Barbie livery was introduced, along with the dropping of the local fleetnames, I wrote to the local branch of First to suggest the very same thing in respect of Provincial. The then MD wrote back to say they had considered this, but weren’t worried. From that, I guess the disposal of certain fleetnames may have been written into the 1985 Act, but I must admit I’ve never read it.

Pete Davies

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21/08/12 – 07:34

As well as Bristol staying green so did Crosville who were a very urban operator in the north of their territory.

Chris Hough

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21/08/12 – 08:32

Yes Chris, but outside Bristol and Liverpool/Wirral they were both very rural.

David Oldfield

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21/08/12 – 20:29

We can surely add Eastern National and United Counties to the list of the NBC "Greens" with much urban mileage.

Roger Cox

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24/08/12 – 08:26

Joe
The fundamental reason, was I think, that red buses on "the track" (Leeds-Wakefield) were joint/coordinated with LCT buses on Leeds-Rothwell (both having been jointly-worked/coordinated tram services) and could pick-up within the LCT area. The significance of this distinction ended when green WR buses on the Leeds-Garforth corridor were also allowed to pick-up within the LCT boundary following a co-ordination agreement with LCT on that corridor.

Philip Rushworth

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04/02/13 – 06:59

Further to the query regarding the survival of Gosport & Fareham under NBC, I well remember Peter Hunt, then General Manager at H&D/G&F telling me that, as G&F was a Statutory Company, an Act of Parliament would be necessary to extinguish it. At that time (around 1977) the estimated legal costs of such an Act was £30,000, which was not considered justified. In any case, Peter Hunt said in a public meeting at which I was present "I think small is beautiful" he thought the efficiency benefits of small-unit cohesion far outweighed any possible advantage from scrapping it. Would that the current crop of industry managers had his wisdom!

David Jones

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04/02/13 – 09:58

It’s statutory status probably stemmed from its creation as a tram company. I would have thought, though, that the name could merely have been discontinued and/or the company made moribund. It looks as if the small is beautiful, and a certain affection for this quirky organisation by Peter Hunt and well-loved by locals and enthusiasts alike, won the day! And hooray for that! Shame it never happened to equally loved and respected Samuel Ledgard.

Chris Hebbron

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25/06/13 – 07:40

Here’s one for Lodekka enthusiasts… I once boarded a Hants & Dorset FS which featured something I’ve never ever seen on any other Lodekka – it had an opening top vent in the nearside rear lower bulkhead window. I know this to be true, but can anyone shed any light on this particular vehicle?

Colin Plucknett

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25/06/13 – 11:45

Coincidence can be a funny thing. I’m travelling at present but have a number of models with me to show to/sell to a friend. One is a Corgi Lodekka FS being Hants and Dorset 1512, CEL 860C. This is modelled with a top opening light in the nearside front bulkhead window so I presume that all that batch, at least, had them.

Phil Blinkhorn

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25/06/13 – 11:47

Colin both West Yorkshire and Crosville also had an opening window on the front lowerdeck window on their FS Lodekkas.

Chris Hough

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28/06/13 – 07:22

Thanks very much Phil and Chris for your interesting replies – however, the window I am thinking of is one of the pair in the rear downstairs. I have since turned up one half-shot from a book and you can just see what I mean. It really is a rare thing – and at least it proves I’m not going mad!!! Any further ideas chaps?

Colin Plucknett

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13/12/13 – 16:55

In case anyone is curious, the last H&D FLF 1577, LLJ  443F, is preserved and appears annually at the King Alfred Running day in Winchester, on 1st January. Free rides all day on part of the 47 road, all welcome.

Alex Geisler

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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13/02/14 – 17:01

When Hants and Dorset was split up into smaller units Wilts and Dorset was one of the resulting companies.
To rename buses from Hants and Dorset to Wilts and Dorset the simple expedient of printing some stickers that read "WIL" and placing them over the "HAN" of Hants and Dorset was used.

David R

Copyright John Stringer

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1958
Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster
Plaxton Consort Mk.II C41C

In the mid 1950’s Leyland abandoned their heavyweight underfloor-engined Royal Tiger model in favour of the very much lighter Tiger Cub. Most export customers however required something rather more substantial, so the opportunity was taken to revamp the old Royal Tiger into a longer and even heavier duty chassis to meet their needs. So was born the Royal Tiger Worldmaster. Where the old model had only a manual gearbox option, the new one had only Pneumo-Cyclic transmission as standard.
It, along with its integral equivalent the Olympic II, went on to be – undoubtedly in my mind – the most successful model Leyland ever built.
Some home market customers still looked towards something with more clout than the Tiger Cub, and a 30ft. version to suit home market requirements was introduced – the RT3/1 bus and RT3/2 coach.
Glasgow bought a large batch of the bus version in 1956, and my own local operator – Halifax Corporation – took nine in 1958, but here climbing Bradford Road out of Stump Cross near my then home is SDK 442, a 1958 Plaxton Consort-bodied RT3/2 coach of Ellen Smith’s Tours, of Rochdale.
One of two with Smith’s, it was later rebodied with a Plaxton Panorama Elite body – surviving until the company eventually sold out, and now preserved.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

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10/08/12 – 07:13

Very nice, John! I have read somewhere – but can’t lay my hands on it at present – that the "leaping tiger" logo of the Royal Tiger was based on the Ellen Smith logo which, in turn, had been inspired by a picture on a card such as used to be included in cigarette packets.

Pete Davies

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10/08/12 – 07:14

A superb vehicle owned by a superb operator which offered a quality friendly service of excursions and tours from my childhood home town of Rochdale. Every other Saturday during the rugby season I would travel on an Ellen Smiths coach to Rochdale Hornets away games. Each coach had a dedicated driver who took pride in the appearance of his own vehicle. While SDK 442 was around at that time we usually travelled by one of the later Harrington Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards but I did travel on SDK after it was rebodied.
I believe Ellen Smiths had dispensation from Leyland to use their ‘pouncing tiger’ badge as it’s fleet logo which can just be seen on the photo on the side of the coach. Perhaps someone can confirm or otherwise.

Philip Halstead

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Further to my earlier post, I have found my source and can answer Philip thus, and I quote from Eric Ogden’s history of the operator, page 9:
"The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland."
I hope this helps!

Pete Davies

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10/08/12 – 10:47

Is this the Tiger in question www.flickr.com/photos/

John Darwent

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10/08/12 – 13:47

Yes, John D, that is the tiger. It always faces "forward" on the side of the vehicle. That on the Leyland badge goes to the viewer’s right which suggests to me that they used the one from the offside of an Ellen Smith coach.

Pete Davies

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Yes that’s the Tiger logo and thanks for clarifying the tie up with the Leyland badge.
To conclude the Ellen Smiths story, Harry Smith sold out to Rossendale Transport on retirement and the new owners ran the business as a separate entity for some years. The red and white livery and name were retained. I left the area shortly after and am not sure if the name still survives.

Philip Halstead

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11/08/12 – 07:35

Mention of Harry Smith reminded me when I drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. We frequently went on hire to Ellen Smith. We were given a reporting time by Harry who was quite pedantic about this time. If we were due to report say at 8 a.m. he told us we were not to arrive before the stated time or else. As we had come via the M62 we often had to sit and wait just up the road and then arrive as if we had come nonstop. I was always interested in the withdrawn vehicles that were dumped at the back of the garage.

Philip Carlton

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12/08/12 – 07:23

Just a point to ponder. Was there something in the water in Rochdale. Not one, not two but three top notch operators. Yelloway, Ellen Smith and the Corporation.

David Oldfield

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12/08/12 – 14:43

David, probably a matter of what wasn’t in the water. The stuff down here in Hampshire is nothing like the real stuff off the Pennines!

Pete Davies

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12/08/12 – 17:38

It’s that Legionella bacteria what gives Pennines water its bite!

Chris Hebbron

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13/08/12 – 08:44

Did Legionella give rise to one of Harrington’s biggest mistakes?

David Oldfield

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13/08/12 – 08:45

The Ellen Smith name still survives. The coaches are now all black with an orange and white tigers head and large stylised tiger stripes. The tiger theme is used in marketing with their loyalty card and a range of excursions. There is a picture on Flickr of one of their coaches at: www.flickr.com/photos/ 

David Slater

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13/08/12 – 11:29

…..and the Ellen Smith Flickr group has pictures of this vehicle with it’s Elite body (as a museum exhibit) and also of ODK, rebodied in the sixties as a Panorama, in service.

David Oldfield

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14/08/12 – 06:47

Nice one, David O!
Was Ellen Smith the name of the woman who started up the company, or what is the origin of this name?

Chris Hebbron

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15/08/12 – 08:04

Yes, Mrs Smith’s first name was Ellen and she seems to have founded this element of the family’s interests.

Pete Davies

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10/10/12 – 13:30

Philip, just read your comments about the late Harry Smith.
You mention Stanley Gath. You might remember Stanley invited a group of Ellen Smith drivers to a "Yorkshire Coach Drivers" social evening in Ravensthorpe near Dewsbury (1966). We hired a coach from a Mr. Norman Fletcher (Harry would’t let us have one) and drove across to Ravensthorpe and as I remember we had a very enjoyable night.
The outcome of this though was that for the next four years we at Ellen Smith decided to hold our own "Lancashire Coach Drivers" social evening at the end of the season. All due to Stanley Gaths hospitality in the first place.

Douglas Neal

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25/10/12 – 07:10

Harry did not sell out he died Eric sold to Rossendale

Smiths Driver

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11/09/13 – 08:30

My name is Helen Morris and Eric Smith was my grandad. Its great to see that people are still interested in Ellen Smith. To answer some of your questions:
1. the company was founded by Eric’s grandmother Ellen Smith using money from taking in washing/sewing.
2. Originally the company owned trucks that delivered goods during the week and could be converted for passengers at the weekend.
3. Eric worked for the family business for most of his life up to the late 90’s when he retired due to ill health, specifically lung cancer. He died in October 2000.
4. I was always told that the tigers were hand painted on by my uncle Jack Mills based on a picture on a cigarette pack.
I hope this helps.

Helen Morris

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12/09/13 – 08:30

Thank you Helen, for adding to the information we hold. Do you have a photo of any older company buses that you think we’d like to see?

Chris Hebbron

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25/09/13 – 18:23

Chris, here’s one of Ellen Smith’s early vehicles:- www.flickr.com/photos/ There are more if you follow through on Ellen 137’s photostream.

David Williamson

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04/11/13 – 16:55

Having worked for the Accountants of Ellen Smiths the books were always spot on and Eric and Harry were controlled by I think it was Margery !! I have in my possession the original cast iron company seal of Ellen Smith (Tours) Limited which was being discarded when the Company was taken over. If anyone wants this piece of history please let me know through the site.

P Curran

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05/11/13 – 10:17

I would suggest the Manchester Museum of Transport would be a good home for the seal. They even have an Ellen Smith’s coach – the one above no less with its later body! I can help arrange if necessary.

David Beilby

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06/04/14 – 08:17

Two points, the Halifax Worldmasters were incredibly slow vehicles, all the more surprising given the engine size. I would prefer to wait 5 minutes extra and catch the Hebble and still be in Northowram quicker than a Worldmaster. Also they had awful tin can Weymann bodies, so I really hated them!
Second, does anyone know why Ripponden & District (coaches) and Ellen Smith both had the same, or similar, logo’s of the Tiger?

John

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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01/06/16 – 12:09

I remember both these coaches parked up at the side of the office back in the mid 70s. They were in a far sorrier state. I played in them quite a few times. There were always feral cats giving birth to kittens. As I got older, early teens I was paid by the drivers to clean the coaches when they came back. Good happy years they used to take me everywhere.
So glad to see them in lovely working condition. Thanks for reminding me.

Vincent Tolan