Potteries Motor Traction
1953
Guy Arab IV
Weymann H32/26R

These vehicles were ordered by Northern General and diverted to PMT. The destination blind boxes were quickly converted to PMT spec. A very poor bus in performance and ride quality having a Gardener 5cyl engine. Best part about them was light steering and in the summer you could drive with the cab door open. Although reliable they never strayed far from the depot. I managed to do 42 mph once in one.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts

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09/12/13 – 09:26

These had all gone by the time I was at PMT. Being highbridge I would imagine they were allocated to Newcastle Depot. I well remember the poor performance of the 1956 Daimler CVG5s but those later fitted with a 6LW were a much better bus.

Ian Wild

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09/12/13 – 14:40

I think the Orion looks better on a traditional-radiator Guy Arab IV than on any other chassis. Michael: when you spoke of poor ride quality, was that just the vibration from the 5LW, or did they give a choppy ride as well? I’m curious because Aldershot & District had Orion bodies on one batch of their Dennis K4s and found that the spring settings that suited the heavier East Lancs batch very well had to be modified for the Orions.
Good to know that you found the steering light. I’ve read elsewhere that some drivers found Arab IV steering heavy, which in view of the excellence of Guy design at that time surprised me. A maintenance issue? Or was the light steering of this Potteries batch attributable to the lightness of the 5LW+Orion combination?
42 mph sounds pretty spectacular, by the way. I wonder whether these machines had a high final-drive ratio, which would yield wonderful fuel consumption on long, flat runs, but would certainly contribute to the impression of sluggishness on start-stop work.

Ian Thompson

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09/12/13 – 17:32

Ian, I’ve just seen the photo and your comment about how the Orion looks and couldn’t agree more. I remember seeing these in the Newcastle areas (both Tyneside and the Potteries) as a boy and they always looked impressive. Somehow the solid colour scheme helps.

Phil Blinkhorn

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09/12/13 – 17:55

Just a thought: I have read elsewhere that differences in steering characteristics between buses of the same type with different operators were sometimes caused by the fitting of different tyres.

Peter Williamson

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10/12/13 – 06:44

Peter, different tyres certainly would make some difference.

Phil Blinkhorn

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10/12/13 – 06:44

At PMT a white steering wheel denoted a highbridge bus. Did the NGT buses of this type have normal black steering wheels?

Ian Wild

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10/12/13 – 06:45

The harsh ride was down to the suspension. At the time I think we were running on Firestone tyres at Newcastle Depot.

Michael Crofts

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10/12/13 – 15:18

Does anyone know the location in this picture? I think the destination blind reads Newcastle via Garner Street.

Chris Barker

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10/12/13 – 15:21

The means of indicating height or width to drivers (and bus wash operators) is a subject in itself. Sheffield and Chesterfield buses carried a letter W on the dash to indicate 8 feet width, but for whose benefit? Preserved Chesterfield 225 has a yellow steering wheel, which I was told indicated highbridge. Some Southend vehicles carried a red one – was this to indicate height or width?
Bristol Tramways/Omnibus fitted white steering wheels to their 8-foot wide buses to warn drivers not to take one over a narrow bridge across the harbour. ECOC and several other Tilling Group companies did the same but it cannot have been general Group policy as Thames Valley KSWs had a black one.

Geoff Kerr

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10/12/13 – 15:21

I disagree, Michael, in my opinion the harsh ride was due to the poor construction and extreme lightness of the early Orion bodies. The second batch we had a Percy Main, FT 9003/7 were an improvement on the first ones, FT 7893/6, however, the 1956 Park Royal bodied Arab IV was a superb vehicle in every sense bar one, NGT still specified the 5LW rather than opting for the 6LW. Having said that, they could scale the North face of the Eiger if asked to do so. As for speed, I think they must have had a high ratio diff, as they could get up to around the fifty mark. White steering wheels? The only ones I can remember at Percy Main were on the Daimler Fleetlines.

Ronnie Hoye

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11/12/13 – 07:04

Here is a picture of the Guy H542 when brand new

and also a picture of same having had a bit of a hard life.
(I do not own either picture)

Michael Crofts

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11/12/13 – 08:09

Michael’s second photo reminds me that PMT’s vehicles in the mid to late 1960s often had a care worn, shabby look.

Phil Blinkhorn

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12/12/13 – 07:13

The red Steering Wheels at Southend was to warn that the bus was a highbridge and therefore banned from services 7/8 which had very low railway bridges.

Philip Carlton

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09/12/15 – 06:04

Chris Barker asked about location. This image is Trinity St in Hanley, opposite the then Odean Cinema. I regularly travelled this route in late 50s/ early 60s. Little did I know that a decade later I’d be driving for PMT, though from Stoke Depot.

David Knight

Royal Household
1966
Bedford J2SZ2
Duple C10F

Here is a view of PYY 28D. She is a Bedford J2SZ2, built for use as a Staff Bus for the Royal Household. The bodywork is a Duple Midland C10F. She started life with registration KLP 1D with the Royal Household and is seen at the National Tramway Museum, Crich, on 30 August 2004. The livery appears to be black. but it is really an incredibly dark and highly-polished green.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

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05/12/13 – 06:57

Incredible, Pete. I’d forgotten all about this beast – but cannot remember where I saw it last.

David Oldfield

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05/12/13 – 08:41

A fine vehicle indeed, and one that I’ve never heard of before. Presumably the impeccable dark green livery means it was supplied by Harrods "by appointment to H. M. The Queen, suppliers of motor omnibuses" – sorry, just another of my infantile mischievous thoughts !!

Chris Youhill

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05/12/13 – 08:58

Nice one Chris – but don’t mock. You never know.

David Oldfield

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05/12/13 – 11:39

I believe that ‘purveyors’ is the word, rather than ‘suppliers’, Chris! Much more classy!
What is the current situation of the vehicle? Many ‘royal’ vehicles/trains/yachts have very cossetted and long lives – is this one of them?
It’s a very stylish vehicle which hasn’t really dated.

Chris Hebbron

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05/12/13 – 11:40

This is a very nice looking coach – reminds me of the Maidstone & District Knightrider in it’s livery style (although the M&D one was really black, I think). But is it cheeky to ponder why the Royal Household chose a Bedford coach? Why not go to their supplier of limousines, Daimler? A few years earlier, and they could have had that rarity, a Daimler Freeline. But in 1966, I suppose they would have had a Roadliner supplied to them – perhaps they had already heard of it’s reputation!

Michael Hampton

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05/12/13 – 11:43

There was also a Bedford VAS3 with a Willowbrook DP20F body new in 1972. This vehicle had an outward opening door. It was often seen at Aberdeen railway station taken staff and luggage to and from Balmoral. This vehicle is now preserved as RBY 764 K.

Stephen Bloomfield

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05/12/13 – 15:06

…..but before…..
The Monarch’s current ride is a Bentley.
The prior ride was a Rolls Royce.
Before that, they used Daimler cars – but pre-war it was Crossley cars…..

David Oldfield

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05/12/13 – 15:07

Chris H,
She appears in the PSVC listing for 2012. That’s where I obtained the detail of her previous registration. Has anyone heard any rumblings about when the next issue may be out?
Think yourselves lucky, folks, as you nearly got a jet fighter after I hit the wrong button. Peter spotted the mistake before I did!

Pete Davies

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05/12/13 – 17:51

By chance, Chris Youhill is nearly right because the Queen does use Harrods for her transport requirements.
In this instance, it is D & H Harrod Coaches of Downham Market, Norfolk who are "By appointment to her Majesty the Queen, Suppliers of Coach Hire"

Nigel Turner

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06/12/13 – 06:36

I’m sure this is the one that was at the Kirkby Stephen Easter rally this year. I’ve seen it a couple of times at recent rallies.
I believe it has recently been advertised for sale in Bus and Coach Preservation magazine.

Eric Bawden

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06/12/13 – 08:22

Very good, Nigel. For the benefit of those including me who have always thought it was HARROLD, here’s a view of the Warrant. It is indeed HARROD.

Pete Davies

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17/12/13 – 06:48

I can’t let the comment about Maidstone & District’s Knightrider coach go uncorrected. It was indeed a dark refined colour, quite different from the fleet colours. Although it might look black in black & white photographs – and some colour renditions, too – it was in fact dark blue.

Petras409

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17/12/13 – 14:26

Thank you Petras for your correction re the livery of M&D’s Knightrider coach. It makes the comparison with the Royal Household coach more pertinent, as both could appear black to a casual observer, but are actually very refined liveries in their respective colours.

Michael Hampton

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17/12/13 – 15:07

Petras409 makes reference to the Maidstone and District Knightrider livery of dark blue. I have recently acquired a M&D cap badge which is dark blue and not the usual Green. I was informed that it was for staff working on the Knightrider, can anybody confirm this?
A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all

Stephen Howarth

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19/12/13 – 06:50

Coaches belonging to Charles Rickards of London (later Frames Rickards) carried the Royal Warrant for many years. I imagine that there will be other operators, in addition to Harrod’s, with a Royal Warrant. Downham Market seems nicely placed for Sandringham.

David Call

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30/05/15 – 06:54

PYY 28D has now reverted to KLP 1D and was seen at The Llandudno Transport Festival in May with these plates, and a check on DVLA web site confirms this.

John Wakefield

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31/05/15 – 06:43

It would seem that the Knightrider was named after M&D’s head office, based in Knightrider House, Knightrider Street.
Was this coach designed for special work or what?

Chris Hebbron

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06/06/15 – 08:10

Yes the Knightrider coach was designated into a series of its own LC1 (Luxury Coach), but was never operated in public service. It was effectively a directors’ limousine, used for high profile visits to outposts of the Maidstone & District empire. Its 16 leather seats were sumptuously laid out in a version of the Harrington Wayfarer body, mounted on a petrol engined Commer Avenger chassis
It was kept in a state of permanent readiness at Sittingbourne depot, in fine fettle, but clocked up a very low mileage.
The picture from the web (Commons copyright free) shows its midnight blue livery well. NKN 650 survives in restoration and must have involved very little restorative work by its current owners, after its undemanding life with M&D.
I was privileged to have a ride in it, on the occasion of a colleague’s retirement bash, while still with M&D. It provided such a quiet, refined ride. Possibly the most luxurious coach ride of my life – the only thing that was missing was the gin & tonic from the cocktail cabinet. This last comment is a lifestyle point, not a definitive statement about the presence (or absence) of such a fitment.

Petras409

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07/06/15 – 06:19

Thx, Petras409 for the fulsome explanation and additional photo. In those days, a petrol engine still had the cache of seeming luxurious over a diesel. Did it have a Bedford engine, Petras?

Chris Hebbron

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07/06/15 – 06:21

Interesting comment from Petras about "Knightrider" in respect of the drinks cabinet. Grossly off topic, I know, but readers might find this amusing.
I was using my ‘old dodders’ bus pass’ a few months ago, and was in Southsea, returning to Southampton. A lady in a wheelchair boarded, and commented on how old the bus was (S prefix, 1998). "Where’s the wide screen television?" she asked. "And the drinks machine?" The driver replied that he’d been naughty, and had been given this one by way of punishment (I suppose it’s better than a school run!) A few minutes later the lady had managed to fit the wheelchair into the space, and apologised thus: "Sorry about the delay in settling, folks, but my wheelchair’s put on a few extra inches since Christmas!"

Pete Davies

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07/06/15 – 06:23

Why did M&D feel the need to have a dedicated Directors coach (Salford’s Committee coach comes to mind here)? I suppose at Salford there wouldn’t have been any other "suitable" [sic] vehicle for the Transport Committee to travel in, but surely M&D had enough front-line coaches to put one at the disposal of the Directors – neighbours Southdown and East Kent (companies with a similar commitment to coaching, and others such as BMMO and Ribble) didn’t feel the need for this extravagance . . . or was that the point, keeping ahead of the Jones’s?

Philip Rushworth

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20/11/15 – 06:48

For Chris Hebbron’s information the Commer Avenger petrol engine was a six cylinder OHV Humber unit as also used in the Imperial Limousine and in the Commer QX lorry. For the Avenger and the QX it was mounted at an angle of 60 degrees to reduce intrusion into the cab.

Stephen Allcroft

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17/10/16 – 09:08

>

Just to revert back to this post, I am trying to trace a subsequent Bedford that also carried the KLP 1D mark.
This was a 1985 Bedford PJK chassis No FT103932 with a cut down Duple Dominant 2 body C16F No 8507/0600 new to Kensington Palace in 6/85. This appeared on eBay in July 2014 with seats removed after an aborted attempt to turn it into a caravan. It was sold to a number plate dealer who sold off the KLP 1D mark to the owner of the J2 (PYY 28D) which is now re united with its original mark.
The PJK was reported to have been sold on with another (unknown) registration number to a school or charity organisation possibly for a greenhouse! I am trying to trace this vehicle so if anyone spots it or knows where it is I would like to know through this website.
The pic shows it in 2014 when it appeared on eBay.

John Wakefield

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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08/11/17 – 07:15

On 5th Nov, I was at the Lincoln Vintage Vehicle Society running event, and noticed this little charmer parked up among the other smaller exhibits. I thought, I have seen this somewhere before, and yes, it is there in the OBP site in some earlier guise. It carried various window displays about its illustrious history and the front window card stated "Lincoln via Aidensfield" which suggests where it had been in the recent past.

Rob Hancock

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09/11/17 – 07:09

The Duple Dominant Royal coach has been found at Sutton House & Breakers Yard a National Trust property at 2-4 Homerton High Street, Hackney, London. Its been made into a greenhouse with the chassis and floor cut away to give ground level access.
Here is a link to pics of KLP 1D https://www.flickr.com/ and a link to the Sutton House web site. https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk

John Wakefield

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10/11/17 – 06:46

If you are on a site which doesn’t readily accept right click Copy & Paste. You can usually use Ctrl C for copy and Ctrl V for paste.

John Lomas

Western SMT
AEC Regent III 9612E
Northern Counties L27/26R

Western SMT took fifty-eight of these handsome preselector Regent III’s with Northern Counties lowbridge bodies between 1947 and 1950, being registered BSD 401 to 458, Strangely, BSD 441 of 1949 never entered service with them and was immediately sold to the independent York Bros. of Northampton. The rest of them continued with WSMT until withdrawal between 1962 and 1965. BSD 454 had survived a further seven years or so with an unidentified owner until being sold to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet – in whose yard it is seen here awaiting its final fate in the Summer of 1970. It would be interesting to know why BSD 441 was sold without being used – does anybody know?

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

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02/12/13 – 16:13

"an unidentified owner" could be some sort of contractor, using the vehicle for staff transport, if the markings on the offside are any guide. Is that a Weymann coach body behind her?

Pete Davies

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02/12/13 – 16:51

Looks like a Fanfare to me, Hawkeye…..

David Oldfield

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03/12/13 – 06:21

At a rough guess it is probably a Yorkshire Woollen Fanfare.

Philip Carlton

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03/12/13 – 06:22

I don’t know why BSD 441 was sold unused. But I do know that 6 further buses were diverted to Hants & Dorset on the south coast. They were very non-standard for this company, but lived out a reasonably full service life. They were numbered 1213-1218, and registered JEL 752-757 in Bournemouth, as would be expected for H&D stock at that time. I believe that this transfer was at the instruction of the BTC, as both H&D’s parent, the Tilling Group, and Western SMT’s parent SBG had recently been nationalised. Presumably a Whitehall boffin felt that such a transfer made sense…?? They were fitted with Tilling-style destination screens, although not so deep as the normal standard.

Michael Hampton

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03/12/13 – 07:51

‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives Western 548 as having had the registration BCS 453 rather than BSD 453. Conversely, Western 394, the last of a batch of 22 Northern Counties bodied Daimler CVA6s, is given as BSD 453, whereas the previous 21 are shown BCS 429/31-3/5-41/3-52.
There is a pic on the net of 548 displaying the registration BCS 453, when with subsequent operator Laycock of Barnoldswick.
Almost as strange as the ‘BSD 441’ enigma.

David Call

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03/12/13 – 07:51

The single decker on the right of the picture looks to be a Lancashire United Guy UF with Weymann Hermes body, one of six delivered in 1954. The front of these bodies was different to the standard Hermes body having a curve to lower windscreen line to match previous Atkinson Alphas with bodies by Northern Counties, Roe and Willowbrook but being different in detail around the cab windows.

Phil Blinkhorn

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04/12/13 – 07:16

Concur with you on the LUT UF, it was my thought straight away on seeing first sight.

Mike Norris

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04/12/13 – 12:11

I didn’t record the details of the other vehicles in the photo, but can confirm that the one on the right is an ex-LUT WTB-reg Arab LUF. There were others of the batch at North’s on that day, I have another photo which includes WTB 71. The bus to the left is one of several ex-WYRCC LS’s, and in the background an ex-YWD Fanfare, of which there were others.

John Stringer

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05/06/20 – 08:07

Can anyone tell me what became of 473 (BSD 436) from this batch? I have a feeling it ended up in Ireland.

Bill Headley