Newcastle Corporation
1937
Guy BTX
Northern Coachbuilders H33/27D

Once again, these photos are from the Newcastle City Libraries Archives. They are pre delivery publicity shots of FVK 109, a 1937 Guy BTX, and were taken at the Northern Coachbuilders works which was located on Claremont Road Newcastle, my records suggest that the vehicle may have been a one off. Between 1936 & 38, Newcastle Corporation took delivery of 70 Trolleybuses, this took the fleet numbers from 40 to 109. They were an assorted mixture, 40 to 43 were two axle Karrier E4 with H56R MCCW bodies, the remainder were all three axle types with H33/27D bodies, 17 AEC 664T – 24 Guy BTX and 24 Karrier E6A. 44 to 77 and 85 to 108 were MCCW, 78 to 84 were Roe, that brings us back to 109. However, the next vehicle I have records for is 112, a 1938 Daimler with H33/27D MCCW body, it carried a Coventry registration, DHP 112, and was the only Daimler in Newcastle’s not inconsiderable fleet, which would suggest that it was originally a demonstrator. If they ever existed, I have failed to find any records for fleet numbers 110 and 111, so perhaps 109 was actually one of three. Changing the tack slightly, I don’t understand the thinking behind this style of body, two axle trolleybuses had a capacity of 56, but despite the extra length these were only 60, with most of the extra space taken up by a second set of stairs, and a door at the front, it seems an awful lot of expense for the sake of an extra four seats, post war vehicles had what I suppose would be called a normal configuration with an open platform and one set of stairs, which gave a capacity of 70.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

05/08/14 – 06:57

Handsome and fascinating vehicle. Unusual that the staircase evidently eats up one seat downstairs, Roe fashion, yet—to go by the position of the handrail seen through the back window—also extends some way across the back of the platform in conventional staircase fashion, suggesting that the platform is shorter from front to back—something also suggested by the smallish rearmost side windows upstairs. The front upstairs bay is also unusually long, yet there’s nothing unbalanced about the whole design, at least to my eye. If only one had survived!
Seeing one after another of Ronnie’s posts fills me with envy: what a wonderful variety of characterful vehicles, some run by quite small authorities, bearing bold liveries and stylish lettering, all exuding a real sense of local pride.

Ian T

05/08/14 – 07:06

Newcastle’s pre-war trolleybus fleet was entirely six-wheeled vehicles, ALL with the same basic body design, incorporating two staircases, a front exit with doors and sixty seats. This arrangement was adopted because front exits on trams had been the norm for many years in Newcastle and the trolleybus routes were initially all for tram replacement. The layout was similar to that adopted by Bournemouth Corporation for its trolleys. It may just be coincidence but Newcastle’s livery was also very close to that operator’s, albeit with a much darker shade of yellow as per the cadmium used on the trams.
Bournemouth: //farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/  
Newcastle: Here’s a digitally enhanced version of Ronnie’s pic of 109: //farm9.staticflickr.com/8464/
Newcastle’s initial 1935 trolleybus fleet was numbered 10-40, extending by 1940 as the network developed to no. 124. As Ronnie rightly states the numbers 110 and 111 were never used, for reasons unknown. Noel Hanson in his excellent history of Newcastle’s trolleybuses offers two theories. One is that 112, a Daimler demonstrator, was coincidentally registered in Coventry as DHP 112 and so NCT thought it prudent to skip from 109 to 112 to keep registration and panel numbers aligned. OR, the reason was an ‘accounting’ allocation of 110 and 111 by Newcastle to other demonstrators that had been borrowed in 1937/38… Whether they actually asked Daimler for a ‘112’ registration on their demonstrator may never be known!
Incidentally 109 saw the light of day as a chassis-only exhibit at the 1937 motor show, then being purchased by Newcastle who had it bodied during 1938 to its ‘standard’ trolleybus design by local firm Northern Coach Builders. Although about this time NCB were bodying Daimler COG5 double-deckers for the Corporation, 109 remained the only pre-war trolleybus bodied by NCB – quite different from the post-war trolleybus fleet in which NCB bodied 80 out of 186 vehicles.
In the pre-war fleet of 113 pretty well externally identical vehicles, no fewer than four chassis makes (27 AEC 664T, 50 Karrier E6/E6A, 35 Guy BTX and 1 Daimler CTM6) and five bodywork manufacturers (5 English Electric, 5 Brush, 89 MCCW, 13 C H Roe and 1 NCB) were represented. Some kind of record? Looks like Metro-Cammell were very much in favour, again reflecting purchases of motor buses at this time.

Fleet summary:
10-4 AEC 664T (EEC)
15-9 AEC 664T (Brush)
20-9 Karrier E6 (MCCW)
30-9 Guy BTX (MCCW)
40 Karrier E6 (MCCW)
41-2 Karrier E6A (MCCW)
43 Karrier E6 (MCCW)
44-6 Guy BTX (MCCW)
47-56 Karrier E6A (MCCW)
57-66 Guy BTX (MCCW)
67-77 AEC 664T (MCCW)
78 Guy BTX (CH Roe)
79-84 AEC 664T (C H Roe)
85-98 Karrier E6A (MCCW)
99-108 Guy BTX (MCCW)
109 Guy BTX (NCB)
112 Daimler CTM6 (MCCW)
113-8 Karrier E6A (C H Roe)
119-24 Karrier E6A (MCCW)

Tony Fox

Morris Works Band
1961
Morris Commercial FF
Wadham

14 LFC is another of those peculiar vehicles which was never a PSV. She is a Morris Commercial FF, new in 1961 with a Wadham RC27F body for use as the Morris Works Band transport. I suppose this explains the raised rear part of the saloon – popularly called the ‘half deck’ concept, though I understand that is a different species altogether. She’s seen on 4 July 2012 in one of the sheds at Long Hanborough.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

01/08/14 – 16:35

I had a short ride on this a few weeks ago at the Hertfordshire showground in Redbourn.
The word that springs to mind is "basic". I hope the band didn’t have to travel too far afield from Oxford!
Nice unique preserved vehicle though.

Andrew Goodwin

01/08/14 – 17:15

(tongue in cheek!) Maybe the raised portion was to allow the trombones to practice without injuring the rest of the band…

John Hodkinson

02/08/14 – 09:06

Thanks for your thoughts. Well, John, one never knows – "many a true word", and all that!

Pete Davies

03/08/14 – 07:53

…..especially if there were 76 of them!
The chassis would have been cheap, since it was made by Morris themselves, but one wonders how much Wadhams charged for a one-off body like this, probably Wadhams only attempt at such a body!

Chris Hebbron

12/09/14 – 06:15

Wadham had previously done a 35 seat bus on Morris FF for Liss and District. That was the only FF sold as a PSV in the UK although it did sell in Australasia and in Singapore.

Stephen Allcroft

13/09/14 – 06:33

Interesting, Stephen. I’ve never seen any mention of Basil Williams’ empire having such an unusual vehicle.

Chris Hebbron

14/09/14 – 07:23

Chris, I think we should remember that Liss and District had a life both before and after Basil Williams’ involvement era. Later, it was involved with Creamline of Bordon. I don’t know where the Morris FF/Wadham bus that Stephen mentions fits into this, though.

Michael Hampton

14/09/14 – 11:1114/09/14 – 11:11

Thx, Michael. Knew of its former life , but not its afterlife! Everything that Basil did was complex; I wonder if he, himself, ever kept fully au fait with his manoeuvrings! One of life’s characters, though, keeping the world from being a duller place, especially for the likes of us!

Chris Hebbron

14/09/14 – 17:23

Stephen’s reference to a Morris FF in the Liss and District fleet is of interest, but more information about his bus is proving rather elusive. Basil Williams’ interest in Liss and District ceased on 21 December 1954 when his Hants and Sussex empire collapsed. Liss and District was then sold to Empress Coaches of Stockbridge, another of Basil Williams’ former companies, though who owned that operator at that time is unclear. Liss and District later came into the hands of Creamline of Bordon who retained it until the proprietors, Charles and Margaret Wilkins, retired in 1967. The Morris FF of 1961 must have been purchased by them. Straying off the subject somewhat (do we ever?) Stephen has contributed an illuminating piece about British Leyland, particularly engine development, and sometimes the lack of it, at the following site:- //middx.net/aec/board/viewtopic.php

Roger Cox

15/09/14 – 07:00

The other vehicle in question was TOU 157. It was new in 1958 and I understand it was purchased by Creamline. There is a photograph of it somewhere on flickr.

Chris Barker

15/09/14 – 12:00

That Flickr photograph Chris mentions is www.flickr.com/photos/roadtransportphotos

Stephen Howarth

15/09/14 – 12:00

Thanks to Roger Cox for unscrambling the Liss and District history post Basil Williams. The Empress (Stockbridge) operation had gone to Holland Tours (Patrick & Brown, Oldbury) at first, and then sold to Buddens of West Tytherley. From the PSVC history I looked at it seems that Liss and District became a subsidiary of Empress when this was still owned by Hollands, and remained a subsidiary when Buddens came on the scene. Buddens then sold Liss and District to Creamline of Bordon as a subsidiary of that group. The sale to Hollands was in Dec 1954, the sale to Buddens in Apr 1955, and to Creamline Oct 1955. And we thought the deregulation era had quick sales! The Morris Commercial TOU 157 is pictured as indicated by Chris Barker, and this shows it to be an "ordinary" saloon, i.e. not with a half deck at the rear for the 76 trombonists(!).

Michael Hampton

16/09/14 – 09:52

The history of Liss & District, post-Basil, is as complex as Basil’s Empire (well, almost!). Being at Bordon, I imagine that Creamline benefited from the army weekend work in the way that Silver Star did, until the end of National Service and contraction/civilianisation at least.

Chris Hebbron

01/05/15 – 12:57

Chris Hebbron about Creamlines participation in weekend Forces leave services. They ran from camps in the Bordon/Aldershot area to London, Warwick, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield (at least) and bought mainly AEC Reliances with Duple bodies seating 43 for this work. They usually kept them for 2 years and replaced them with new coaches. flickr has a group devoted to forces leave services with several Creamline photos.

Paul Statham

02/05/15 – 06:53

Thx, Paul. This work, nationally, must have been a lucrative source of income, since poverty-stricken National Serviceman, anxious to get home to girlfriends/families would use them to the full, until it dried up around 1962. Strangely enough, even though I was based at RAF Stafford, a large Maintenance Unit, in the late 1950’s, and one or two other camps, I never saw/noticed any coaches on these services. I always went home by train, passing through Liss Station on my way home to Portsmouth. I’ll look up Flickr.

Chris Hebbron

20/07/15 – 09:56

This vehicle was at the Alton Bus Rally Sunday 19th, and I attach two more views of this interesting vehicle.

Pete Davies

20/07/15 – 16:41

Thx, Pete, for the new photos, giving a much more rounded idea of the bodywork. This complex body design, must have been quite an interesting challenge for Morris employees, building just the one-off. It’s certainly not unattractive.

Chris Hebbron

21/07/15 – 06:16

Thanks, Chris. I can’t help but feel the folk in the back (raised) portion wouldn’t have had much forward vision. Was that to help them concentrate on their music?

Pete Davies

21/07/15 – 06:17

The body was built by Wadhams of Waterloovlle, a long-time favoured partner for Morris-Commercial PSV chassis

Philip Lamb

26/03/19 – 06:49

The large boot was for the percussion instruments and the larger brass instruments. Lord Nuffield loved his band.

Peter Hewis

27/03/19 – 06:45

Looking at the two above photos, I can’t help thinking that the narrow front wheel track was not a great help in cornering? I recall driving a Karrier/Commer Spacevan once or twice, which, with a narrow front axle compared with the rear one, had appalling cornering ability, digging in at the front, even at modest speed, which, on reflection, was the only speed it ever achieved! Even for the 1980’s, it was a dreadful vehicle!

Chris Hebbron

28/03/19 – 07:25

I dont think the track on the Morris FF was any narrower that on similar vehicles of the day such as the Bedford SB. The Commer FC ‘Spacevan’ was a much smaller vehicle.

John Wakefield

Tynemouth and District
1948
AEC Regent II
Weymann H30/26R

After the Intake of early 1940, no more vehicles arrived at Percy Main until 1946, in the meantime, seven vehicles were transferred to other Northern General Transport depots, eight more were requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport. A total of 15 from a fleet of around 110 was a sizable chunk. For a while, spares availability became a problem, so it was not uncommon for vehicles awaiting parts to be cannibalised to keep others going. The first post war intake arrived in 1946 in the form of five H30/26R Northern Counties bodied 5GLW Guy Arab III’s. However, as has been mentioned before, Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries a degree of independence with vehicle choice and spec, so it was not long before Percy Main reverted to AEC.
Between 1947/8 they took delivery of 29, H30/26R Weymann bodied Regent II’s, which at that time amounted to roughly a quarter of the fleet. The first batch delivered in 1947 were FT 5698 to 5712 and numbered 128 to 142, the 1948 intake were FT 6143 to 6156, numbered 143 to 156. 141-142 & 156 carried the Wakefields name but were otherwise identical. The Regent II chassis had a 7.7 Litre diesel engine, four- speed sliding mesh gearbox and friction clutch, buying wasn’t complicated, it was bog standard with no other options available, so it came down to a straightforward decision of take it or leave it. Like most vehicles of the period, by today’s standards they were unrefined, but they were well built rugged and reliable, and demanded a degree of respect, anyone foolish enough to try to abuse them would generally find that the Regent was made of stern stuff. They also had one essential ingredient that modern vehicles don’t have, a conductor! As anyone who has ever worked a dual crew bus will tell you, conductors will be the first to complain if the ride is anything less than acceptable. The choice of body was a different matter with umpteen options on offer, Percy Main opted for Weymann, the build quality was top notch, and arguably one of the best looking bodies of the period. they were no strangers to it having bought similar vehicles in 1940: 152, was from the 1948 intake and is seen here in its original livery. By the time of its first repaint ‘about 1951’, the black lineout had been dropped and the fleet name was much smaller, but the gold coach lines were still in vogue. Note the flip down metal DUPLICATE plate under the overhang, apart from the later Routemasters; this was a standard fitting on all Northern General Transport group half cabs

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

28/07/14 – 07:57

It’s surprising how many Percy Main depot buses have appeared in model form. AEC Regent 135 (similar to the above photo) was issued by Corgi many years ago. They also issued Leyland Olympian 3593 from a later era. Britbus weighed in with Coastline Atlantean 3458. E.F.E. have been the most prolific with Leyland PD2 / Orion 230, AEC Renown as Tynemouth 333 and yellow Northern 3743, Atlantean / MCW yellow Northern 3194 as well as yellow Northern National 4444 and Coastline Wright Low Floor 4769. Quite an impressive representation really for one depot.

Keith Bruce

26/10/15 – 16:17

A query about this photo is the location. Looking at it, it could be Park Road, Whitley Bay. The area behind the bus was originally occupied by Whitley Park Hall. This later became a hotel, and part of the grounds became the Spanish City. The hotel closed and was demolished in the thirties. In the mid sixties, a new library was built on the site replacing the previous library which was located at the United bus station.
All this has now gone. The Spanish city has been replaced by a new school, while the library has been relocated nearer the town centre. Park Road itself has since the late sixties been a one way street in the opposite direction to which the bus is travelling.
None of this is relevant to the bus, but part of the fascination of old bus photos is seeing how much has changed – not just the buses, but the surroundings.

John Gibson

27/10/15 – 06:32

It could be Park Road, Whitley Bay, very close to the junction with Park Avenue.

Paul Robson

27/10/15 – 06:34

John, as you say, the photo was taken a long time ago, so everything may have changed. However, my guess would be that the bus is heading west along Linskill Terrace opposite the golf course, and the trees are in Northumberland Park

Ronnie Hoye

28/10/15 – 07:00

Linskill Terrace, Tynemouth, is another possibility. However the curve in the road there occurs at the north end of Washington Terrace and you would expect to see behind the bus some of the Edwardian-era houses between Washington Terrace and Park Avenue.

Paul Robson

28/10/15 – 07:01

When I first saw this photo, I was not too certain of it’s location. The photo as reproduced here has been somewhat cropped, but the bends in the road which can be seen more clearly in the original seem to match those on Park Road. There are also buildings in the distance which look to be those between Marine Avenue and the Spanish City. As Paul Robson says, it looks as if it was taken close to the junction with Park Avenue. I would agree however that it could be elsewhere and Ronnies suggestion of Linskill Terrace is certainly a possibility.
Regarding Keith Bruce’s comments about models of Tynemouth vehicles, the E.F.E. model of 230 is a nice model, but it should be a PD3, not a PD2.

John Gibson

29/10/15 – 06:35

Having looked at this again, I think we could all be wrong. It could well be Wallsend Road, at the foot of Balkwell Avenue, opposite the Pineapple Pub. The trees would then be in the grounds of St Joseph’s R.C. school. The present church was built in the late 50’s or early 60’s, which would be after this photo was taken, and the area on the bend where the stone wall is now has a low brick wall which is at the edge of the car park.

Ronnie Hoye

01/07/22 – 06:03

Definitely Park Road, almost at Park Avenue junction. The park is Whitley Park, and the parkkeeper’s house is behind the stone wall – his son was a friend of my brother. The distant bend is indeed the Spanish City funfair location.Service 4 Gateshead was renumbered Service 1 Gateshead Lobley Hill Moorfoot subsequently.

Conrad Smith