South Midland Ltd (Witney)
1950
Bristol L6B
Windover C33F

Photographed in Oxford in the summer of 1960 is South Midland Ltd. FMO 937, a Bristol L6B of 1950 with a Windover ‘Huntingdon’ C33F body. Windover was a very old established firm that was known as a saddler and harness maker in Ottery St Mary from the year 1600. The family later became carriage builders, moving first to Grantham and then, in 1856, to Huntingdon where, by the 1920s, it became one of the largest employers in the town. Manufacturing premises held by other members of the Windover family in Manchester and Bradford were acquired in 1893. Production transferred in 1924 to Hendon until the firm sold out to the car dealers Henley in 1956. South Midland was a subsidiary of Thames Valley, with whom this coach first entered service as No. 555 in July 1950 before passing to South Midland some nine years later. It didn’t stay long at Witney, for, by October 1960, it was back with Thames Valley for a further year until withdrawal in October 1961. The following month it was sold to the Hampshire firm, Creamline of Borden, its subsequent fate being unrecorded.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

29/01/17 – 07:11

I had forgotten Windover had supplied Thames Valley/ South Midland with coaches on Bristol Chassis. Other outside coach bodies on Bristol L and LL I can think of at the time were Western ANd Southern National- Beadle and Duple. Hants & Dorset/ Wilts and Dorset Portsmouth Aviation and United Automobile Services Harrington; can anyone think of any more?

Stephen Allcroft

29/01/17 – 08:45

Interesting post, Roger. Thank you. I think Borden relates to a chemical company and that you mean Bordon, in Longmoor Military Railway territory.
Wandering, nay running, wildly off-topic, there is a roundabout at the junction of A27 and B3397 (Hamble Lane) which is officially Windhover Roundabout. Note the H. In this context it means a Kestrel. Does anyone know or have any ideas about the meaning in the coach builder’s context?

Pete Davies

29/01/17 – 09:48

Six Eventful Generations
Bartholomew WINDOVER was a bespoke saddler and harness maker working and living in the town with his wife Mary.
From 1633 when Bartholomew was born to 1796 when Charles James Windover died, six generations of the family lived through some of the most exciting times in British history.
More here:- www.windovers.co.uk/default.htm

John Lomas

29/01/17 – 11:27

I have a model of this vehicle in North Western Road Car Company livery.

Richard Hill

30/01/17 – 07:12

Should have added the fleet number, 270, and the registration DDB 270.

Richard Hill

30/01/17 – 07:13

Yes, Pete, it’s a typo. I mean Bordon – at one period in my varied transport career I regularly drove Aldershot & District Loline IIIs through there on the Aldershot – Petersfield – Steep route 6. One of the prominent figures in the Southampton based group of the Institute of Transport when I was a member in the 1960s and ’70s was Brigadier Nightingale of Longmoor Camp and its railway.

Roger Cox

31/01/17 – 07:25

I don’t think the reference to "South Midland Ltd (Witney)" is quite right. This was the organisation set up in the mid 1980’s when NBC split the Oxford-South Midland business into two parts.
In 1960 FMO 973 would be owned by South Midland Motor Services Ltd. This company had been part of the Red & White group and in 1950, on nationalisation, passed to the control of Thames Valley along with Venture and Newbury & District.
The head office became Thames Valley’s in Reading and South Midland ran out of depot premises in Oxford.

Mike Grant

01/02/17 – 07:31

Withdrawn by Creamline in 1963, presumably for scrap.

Philip Lamb

01/02/17 – 07:31

For about three years, from 1961 to 1964, I lived in Southsea, but worked in Guildford. Every morning, the 07.06 slow electric train from Fratton would stop at Liss Station and on the other side of the platform would be anything from a WD Black 5 to a modest saddle tank loco pulling just two coaches with army/civilian staff who were changing trains for Bordon.
What a comedown for such powerful locos as Black 5’s!

Chris Hebbron

22/04/22 – 06:53

Mike Grant is right about the South Midland company name in the 1960s. These Windover bodied L6B coaches were eleven in total, FMO 20 -26, FMO 934- 937, fleet nos. 545-555, and they were delivered to Thames Valley between March and July 1950. Two, nos. 548/53 went to South Midland in January 1955, but 548 was returned to Thames Valley in October 1958. Another six, nos. 545/50/51/52/54/55, were transferred to South Midland in June/July 1960, but six were sold out of service in October 1960, with just no. 551 FMO 26, lingering on until November 1961. These all went on with other operators to give further service for up to seven years. FMO 937 no. 555 was sold by Creamline in November 1963, and it was last recorded with a Macclesfield dealer in April 1965. However, four of these Windover coaches, FMO 21 – 24 were retained by Thames Valley, who scrapped the bodies, lengthened the chassis in house and replaced the Bristol AVW engines with Gardner 5LWs, thereby transforming them into the LL5G type. These were fitted with new ECW FB39F bodies carrying the garish radiator of the time and re-entered service in February 1959 as nos. 817 – 820. Their extended lives with Thames Valley came to an end between March and July 1968. FMO 21 went briefly to Elm Park Coaches of Romford before passing to Continental Pioneer in August 1968, being finally withdrawn in March 1973. FMO 22 passed to Rossmore Bus Company of Sandbanks who kept it until September 1972. FMO 23 was bought by R Hughes-Jones of Rhostryfan, but, in October 1970, it passed to E W Thomas of Upper Llandwrog who kept it until March 1975. FMO 24 was sold to F G Wilder of Feltham who disposed of it to Norths the dealer in December 1971. It then went to a Leeds contractor, H O Andrews who returned it to Norths in March 1975. Thus some of these machines, albeit in modified form, gave a creditable service life of up to 25 years. I acknowledge the remarkable Thames Valley history by Paul Lacey, the South Midland book by David Flitton and the bristolsu website as the sources of this detail.

Roger Cox

Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company Limited
1951
Bristol LWL6B
ECW FC35F

NHY 947 is an ECW ‘Queen Mary’ coach body with the sort of chassis one might expect underneath – not the AEC Regal rebuild in Tilling livery submitted a while ago! This Bristol LWL6B was new in 1951, with ECW FC35F body. We see it on Southampton Common on the sunny morning of 7 May 1979, while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

16/01/17 – 06:29

The only batch of these bodies sold to a Scottish operator were on Daimler chassis.

Stephen Allcroft

17/01/17 – 07:03

This photo of fellow LWL6B, NHY 946, No.2814, was taken in Railway Place, Bath in August 1958. The term "Queen Mary" has been applied in enthusiast circles to a number of psv types, notably the full fronted PD3s of Southdown, though in that latter instance the accuracy of the sobriquet is strongly disputed in some quarters. I always understood that the intended analogy was with the low loading military articulated lorries designed for the carriage of tanks and heavy plant rather than the Cunard liner, and was meant to suggest a certain degree of ponderousness in appearance and progress. This style of ECW body did suffer from rather heavy frontal treatment, but it compared quite favourably with the dreadful full fronted efforts of some other contemporary coachbuilders on front engined chassis.

Roger Cox

17/01/17 – 07:05

NHY 946 is pictured in this thread Bristol Tramways – Bristol L6B – NAE 3 – 2467  this time in the cream and maroon livery of 1963.

Geoff Pullin

Yorkshire Woollen District
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H28/28R (1955)

Aliens Land In Dewsbury.

Yorkshire Woollen District experienced a severe shortage of vehicles during 1969 and consequently was obliged to acquire some most untypical vehicle types which no doubt caused much displeasure to both engineering and road staff. Seen here at Savile Town depot, Dewsbury in 1970 are a selection.

From the left.

WCY 892 (160) was one of seven AEC/PRV Bridgemasters (H43/29F) that had come from South Wales Transport, this one being new in 1961.

UHN 642 (166) and WHN 54 (169) were two of six Bristol KSW6B’s with ECW H32/28R bodies, that had been new to United Automobile in 1954/55.

6162 WJ (141) was one of seven Leyland PD2/30’s with Roe H33/26RD bodies that had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ (British Railways owned) fleet in 1960. From the same source had also come two PD2/20’s with ECW bodies, three Atlanteans and two Burlingham-bodied Leopards.

OWT 204 (154) was one of four Bristol K5G’s with ECW highbridge bodies that had been new to York West Yorkshire in 1939, then rebuilt with new chassis frames and rebodied in 1955. There was also a pair of lowbridge K6B’s from Keighley West Yorkshire.

All those in the photo were withdrawn in 1970 (6162 WJ in 1972) and sold to North’s, the dealer, at Sherburn-in-Elmet only the Bridgemaster seeing further use, being exported to Canada for use initially by a restaurant in Toronto, then by Gray Tours of Winnipeg.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

06/01/17 – 06:24

Hmm . . . varying shades of red! I’, assuming that Ks were placed in service in Tilling red, the Bridgemaster in SWT red, but the PD2 repainted into YWD red. I’ve seen a paint listing somewhere which refers to "BET red" and "BET crimson" as standard colours shared by BET companies: I’m sure YD used one of the two, and Hebble the other (and one of two was the same as Western Welsh) – I’ll have made a note somewhere, I’ll track it down.
It strikes me as odd that YWD went to the trouble of making "coach glasses" for the Bridgemaster and PD2, but not the UA Ks.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/17 – 10:51

Sorry to reveal my ignorance but what do you mean by "coach glasses"?

David Rawsthorn

06/01/17 – 10:52

I knew of the vehicle shortage at YWD but I’m surprised to find that such a variety of interesting vehicles were brought in to help. While I can understand the general displeasure among the work force, as an enthusiast driver I would have been over the moon at getting to know such vehicles.

Chris Youhill

06/01/17 – 10:53

Great photo John. Takes me back to when I started at YWD Head office at Savile Town Dewsbury in 1970. These buses made a welcome change to the MCW Regent Vs which seemed to be everywhere around Dewsbury. The Bridgemasters were christened Welsh Corgis.

J D Blackburn

07/01/17 – 06:44

David
Those glass panels with the operators names on below the rear windows of coaches, I couldn’t think of a better name for the glasses with "Yorkshire" in lieu of destination screens.

Philip Rushworth

08/01/17 – 06:21

Thanks.

David Rawsthorn

08/01/17 – 06:22

I guess the Ks, being considerably older, were considered to be "not long for this world"! I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the ECW body for the K (especially the high bridge KSW version) was the nicest and best balanced half-cab double decker of all time. By contrast, I always thought the Bridgemaster was the ugliest (with apologies to those who love them!)

Stephen Ford

08/01/17 – 06:23

OWT 204 was actually the fifth ex York-West Yorkshire K5G that Yorkshire used. They started with OWT 196/7/201/5 from 1 May 1969 and numbered these 155/4/2/3 respectively. However, OWT 197 was returned to West Yorkshire (for disposal) at the end of May and replaced by OWT 204, the subject of the photo, which took on OWT 197’s fleet number of 154.
At this stage all six West Yorkshire vehicles (4 x K5Gs and 2 x K6Bs) were only on hire and carried a "West Yorkshire Road Car" legal ownership panel and an "On Hire to Yorkshire Woollen District" sticker. They also had "West Yorkshire" fleetnames (i.e. without Keighley- or York- prefixes) and full Tilling red and cream livery with black wings and wheels. This hire situation continued until 18 August 1969, when all six vehicles were sold to Yorkshire Woollen District.
In January 1970, OWT 196/201/4 had their wings and wheels painted red (ex black) and gained Yorkshire fleetnames, but remained in Tilling red and cream.
They were used mainly on YWD routes A1/2/3/4 (Thornhill-Dewsbury-Birstall), for which special short destination blinds were made for the front only; they carried no rear destination or route number blinds. They worked mainly at peak hours, but we were told at the time that they "…are extremely popular with the Yorkshire drivers, who appreciate their reliability and sturdiness. Indeed, they are practically the only double deckers at Dewsbury that do not have to be "booked off" for one fault or another!"

Trevor Leach

08/01/17 – 06:24

I have read before about the "severe vehicle shortage" in 1969 which may have been shared with others. Why was this? Do I remember that they had problems with inspections? In days of uniform fleets it is strange to read that these five "begged" buses had four different makes of engine- a Youhill delight- what was the rest of the fleet then? Leyland? At least I think West Riding- around then- replaced Wulfrunians with buses with various Gardner engines.

Joe

10/01/17 – 06:17

From memory, local newspapers referred to a shortage of spare parts.
In 1969 Yorkshire Woollen’s fleet included:
6 x circa 1950 Leyland PS2s rebodied as double-deckers by Roe in 1962-63
44 x AEC Regent Vs dating from 1958-61
9 x Leyland PD3A built 1962
14 x Albion Lowlander built 1964
22 x Daimler Fleetline built 1965-67
12 x Leyland Atlantean built 1967
Between 1959-62 Yorkshire Woollen purchased 43 AEC Reliance single-deckers, but many of these had been withdrawn by 1969.
YWD purchased 50 bus-bodied Leyland Leopards between 1962-65.
I well remember wishing to travel to school and finding that what had previously been a 70-seat Regent V-operated service was frequently a coach-seated AEC Reliance, either with 39-seat Weymann Fanfare bodywork, or ex-Maidstone & District examples with centre-entrance 37-seat Harrington coachwork.
I regret to say that things got so bad with being unable to even board a vehicle – and consequently being late for school – I finally gave up on YWD and started walking to school.

Paul H

10/01/17 – 16:49

I was aware that Hebble was experiencing severe problems with its fleet around this time (1970) but did not realise YWD shared the same problems.
The former Sheffield buses came to YWD as a result of NBC taking over the former railway-owned C fleet and distributing them to its subsidiaries, but no doubt they helped with the vehicle shortage.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/17 – 10:23

I left Dewsbury in 1968, but I don’t think that the situation was much better for 2 or 3 years before this. I well remember 41 seater Reliance/Harringtons being used on the A group of services to Thornhill where the allocation was a 70 seat Regent V every 5 minutes, with queues from the Market stop almost to the end of the road, and no chance of boarding the bus opposite the Bus Station. I am not sure that the cause was the same as 1969 but the effect certainly was. As an 18 year old I had a Saturday afternoon job with a Market Trader (I had to go to school Saturday morning), and I always walked to the Bus Station and caught one of the other services (Whitley, Grange Moor or Thornhill Edge) which took me close to home – and they were always full with frustrated A service passengers.

Malcolm Hirst

22/11/18 – 07:02

So bad was the state of the fleet in the late sixties that the road staff struck over the state of the vehicles one spokesman for the staff cited the PS rebuilds as the worst offenders Despite this they lasted well into the NBC era.

Chris Hough

24/11/18 – 06:15

The rebuilt PS2s also caused a lightening strike during the seventies. This was due to heaters not working. Sounds quite radical but it was probably the accumulation of vehicles constantly being "logged off" for this problem. I was working at Dewsbury head office at the time and remember having to walk home cursing everything.

John Blackburn

28/08/20 – 06:46

Was lucky enough to work for YWD in 1970 and doubly lucky to have missed driving a K5G up any hill in the area. 6 cylinder Gardner engined half cabs were bad enough but the thought of a 5 cylinder one only makes you think of trips you could miss with late running. Always found the ex Sheffield Leylands being a pleasure to dd felt quite tight vehicles and easy to drive. Really enjoyed the Corgi Bridgemasters unlike many drivers. Being tall the gear stick being at an angle was far easy to use in comparison to the Regent V where second gear was hard to engage due to being at the back of the bulkhead and a knuckle scraper.

Ian Gardner

15/10/22 – 06:04

I remember seeing one of the ex-Sheffield Titans freshly repainted into YWD red. Unfortunately the paint was rather thin and the Sheffield blue bands were still visible under it!

Glen Simpson