Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1968
Leyland Leopard PSU4A/4R
Marshall B43F

A pleasant Sunday afternoon scene in May 1970 outside the church at the Bagnall terminus of service 44 from Hanley shows one of Milton Depots pair of short Leopards. This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliner buses delivered in the previous three years. These short length Leopards were ultra reliable machines and ideal for the rural services operated by Cheadle, Longton, Newcastle and Milton Depots where they replaced early AEC Reliances.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/08/12 – 08:19

Nice shot!
"This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliners . . ." All I have read about the Roadliners indicates that the term ‘unmitigated disaster’ is too mild. How could Daimler have got it so wrong?

Pete Davies

24/08/12 – 08:20

Said in three simple words – ultra reliable machines. Never was convinced that Volvo were that much batter than AEC but Leyland suffered from association with British Leyland (Motor Corporation). I have great respect and affection for the Leopard, AN68 and Tiger. They may not have been as flash or quick as the Volvos but they plodded on – you trusted them to keep going.

David Oldfield

24/08/12 – 12:19

A pair of these are preserved namely 1127 – TVT 127G and 1128 – TVT 128G

Chris Hough

24/08/12 – 12:20

Pete. Everyone got it wrong apart from Bristol with rear engined buses – Daimler got more wrong than anyone else, especially choice of engine. As a "coach" man, my top three are ZF Reliance, RE and Leopard. I preferred the Leyland engined RE and, significantly, PMT turned to the RE – albeit late in the RE’s lifespan.

David Oldfield

25/08/12 – 07:40

David,
Ta! I had an idea that most of the problem was the choice of engine.

Pete Davies

25/08/12 – 07:42

David, you can add Seddon to the list of rear engined design failures. No doubt because of his debt of gratitude to Robert Seddon in the early years of his engineering career, Geoff Hilditch, in his writings, is quite kind about the shortcomings of the Pennine RU, but it was undoubtedly a severe disappointment to those who tried hard to encourage competition with British Leyland. The only really satisfactory Seddon psv design was the Pennine VII, which proved to be a sound and reliable performer.

Roger Cox

25/08/12 – 07:42

Re Chris Hough’s posting of 24/08/12 12:19 about the two preserved PMT Leopards 1127 & 1128, here is a photo I took of them both at the Wirksworth Bus Rally at the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway on 1st July this year.

Eric Bawden

25/08/12 – 08:53

As always, seeing sisters side by side highlights the detail differences. In this case, the indicator displays, the "company" logo versus the NBC one on the front, the little ventilator under the windscreen . . . And this is just from a look at the bus front!

Pete Davies

25/08/12 – 10:54

Pete. There was another problem that everyone except Bristol had, as well. Heavy engines overhanging the rear axle causing bodies, and chassis, to flex (and sometimes break). Ingenious use of the Lodekka drop axle enabled Bristol to shorten the overhang on the RE and thus reduce the stresses on both chassis and body. The Seddon RU mentioned by Roger was, as much as anything, meant to be an RE clone to help RE operators out who were suffering delivery delays (a "British Leyland" problem with all their brands at the time). Crosville bought hordes of the things and were stung. The Ward Dalesman GRX was a further unsuccessful attempt. The Seddon Pennine VII, on the other hand was a "Leopard with Gardner engine" that "British Leyland" refused to supply to the Scottish Bus Group.

David Oldfield

25/08/12 – 12:27

And we all know what happened to British Leyland over their perceptions of what the customer wanted and what they were prepared to supply: among other things, we got foreign trucks and buses, and cars with traditional boot lids (even on cars with the hatchback shape) when other car makers were introducing hatchbacks, etc!

Pete Davies

27/08/12 – 07:53

A common consensus is the generally uselessness of early rear engined saloons Interestingly some operators managed to make the beast work. Preston made the Panther work as did Hull equally Leeds 150 Swifts had a normal lifespan. While others quickly sold them off as to fault prone or too costly to maintain.
I suppose that fashion also played a part whereby if undertaking A was getting rid of the things undertaking B down the road would do as well.
To my mind this meant that Leyland could pour money into the National and not further develop the other chassis particularly the Bristol RE which was streets ahead of anything similar from the Leyland empire.

Chris Hough

28/08/12 – 14:35

These Leopards were awful (my opinion) it was all down to the cab layout the windscreen was about 6 feet away so you had to stand up to wipe the screen also had a low driving position. The only good thing was they were warm in the winter. we operated them on the Newcastle – Market Drayton service (64) and the other problem was they did not have a AEC Badge on the front.

Michael Crofts

28/08/12 – 17:55

Well, Michael, I will agree with you wholeheartedly on the matter of AEC, but have to say that Devon General’s similar AH505 Reliances – ie with Marshall bodies – had similarly huge cabs with the screen miles away. So you can blame Leyland for the low driving position, which they rectified on Leopards after 1969, but Marshall are to blame for your trek to clean the screen!
[I assume you were after an AEC chassis and engine behind the badge? I knew a coach operator in High Wycombe (Bucks) who ran a Reliance with a Bedford engine…..!]

David Oldfield

28/08/12 – 17:56

All Leylands had that problem, Michael!

Eric Bawden

29/08/12 – 07:23

Just noticed another difference, on the two preserved examples (1127/8). 1127 has sliding vents behind driver’s signalling window, 1128 doesn’t.

David Oldfield

29/08/12 – 12:20

We had three similar Leopard PSU4/Marshalls to this at Halifax. 358-360 (NHE 8-10F) came to Calderdale J.O.C. from Yorkshire Traction as part of the Todmorden takeover arrangements. Nice enough looking buses, they too suffered from the faraway windscreens and very low driving position. They had the original style of large Pneumocyclic gearchange pedestal which got completely in the way, and to get in and out of the cab seat required the skills of a contortionist. With the seat wound up high enough to see forward and reach the pedals one’s knees were rubbing against the underside of the steering wheel, and one’s left leg had a struggle to fit around the gearchange pedestal. They were extremely uncomfortable and inconvenient buses to drive.
Despite the relative indestructability of the earlier Leopard chassis, I am told that the build quality of the Marshall bodies left a lot to be desired. Despite the apparent similarity of the BET-style bodies built by various bodybuilders, it would seem that some were a lot better than others, and that the Met.Cam/Weymann version was generally the most durable.
Despite this, 360 was badly damaged in a collision and sold to a Barnsley breaker, but later it turned up in Malta rebuilt and magnificently presented by one of the island’s most enthusiastic bus owners.

John Stringer

19/01/13 – 06:12

Having owned a Marshall bodied short Ribble Leopard for almost 15 years I find it hard to believe that they were such poor service vehicles. I must admit there is a certain amount of dexterity required to become seated in the drivers seat, but once seated I have not yet found any problem with the driving position. Surely windscreens on most half cabs and other 1960’s vehicles are a similar distance away? Whilst I have not driven this particular bus fully laden, the steering could be entertaining, I find it a pleasure to drive.

John Davis

20/04/13 – 07:17

Re- remarks on variations with 127/128, yes there’s lots more inside and out, we have a boot but no doors, 127 has a disabled chair lift! 127 has 2 roof vents, 128 has 1, coach seating in 127, service seats in 128. The luggage racks differ, as do cabs, as 128 was altered along with destination box layout by previous owner. I cannot explain, or took the time to find out why all this happened, as owner/secretary of ‘TVT 128G group’ what I can say is that 128 has served us well over the 13 years we have owned her, no major repairs other than a radiator leak/broken jubilee clip/1 leaf spring but she’s a good runner.

Keith Broomhall

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/07/15 – 06:49

Enjoyed a couple of laps around Oulton Park yesterday aboard TVT 128G, one sighting lap and one ‘fast’ lap! Wouldn’t have been half as much fun on a modern bus.

Wayne Hope

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1946
AEC Regal I
Brush B34F

This shot shows PMT S315 an AEC Regal I about to be towed away from Milton Depot for preservation by Hollis of Queensferry ex Western Welsh Leyland Royal Tiger FUH 424 on 10th October 1970 – wonder what happened to it?
The engineless vehicle had been in use as a canteen/mess room inside the depot for a number of years until modernisation came in the form of a block work structure in its place. The large protuberances on the roof are mains light fittings used in its mess room role. The bus looks remarkably intact although obviously would be short of some interior fittings.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

17/07/11 – 12:24

A most interesting vehicle – the removal of the awful "domestic wheel spats" and the restoration of the rear mudguards would be quite a useful start in its restoration.

Chris Youhill

17/07/11 – 12:29

Strange how unattractive the vehicle looks with ‘spats’ over the rear wheels. Were they an original feature, or an attempt to fool the mess’s customers into thinking it really wasn’t a bus at all! Where is/was Milton Depot? Funny thing about streamlining in general. IMHO, the LNER’s A4’s always looked superb with streamlining, but better without the their spats. Bulleid’s Southern Railway Battle of Britain and sister classes always looked much better after they were rebuilt as ‘proper’ steam engines! But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

17/07/11 – 18:30

Definitely not original Chris – notice how the bus is now fitted with only an inner single rear wheel each side. The new "spats" are built in with beading and there are no release catches to be seen. The routine changing of wheels would have been made impossible with such fittings, and the sooner they’re removed – maybe already have been by now – the better eh??

Chris Youhill

18/07/11 – 07:25

The rear wheel covers were definitely fitted when it became a static mess room. Milton Depot was on the northern side of Stoke on Trent, on the A5009 near its junction with the A53 Leek Road. It’s over forty years now since the bus was taken for preservation – I have never seen any reference to it since so I assume it has been scrapped – unless someone knows differently?

Ian Wild

18/07/11 – 11:35

Just a note to point out this bus is fitted with the pre-war style bonnet, radiator and front wings, so would be a Regal rather than the Regal mk.III that was introduced for the home market around 1947/8.

Eric

Thanks Eric I have corrected it, my mistake.

Peter

19/07/11 – 17:01

The "Surviving Single-Deck Halfcab Buses & Coaches" website gives this entry:-
Potteries S363 > S315 (in 1953), Regal {O6624981} / Brush B34F, 1946, KEH 608, Tom Hollis, Queensferry, N.Wales. Sold by 1992. Scrapped?

I think that we should fear the worst.

Roger Cox

21/07/11 – 07:34

I’ve been trying to find a little more information about the batch that this was from because I have a good memory for registrations and I remembered that Silver Service of Darley Dale had one. I have been unable to find a PMT fleet list anywhere so all I had to go on were old copies of Buses Illustrated for 1961. Silver Service bought KEH 602 in 4/61, KEH 603 and KEH 609 were reported withdrawn in 4/61 and KEH 600 went to Eagre (contractor) Scunthorpe in 7/61. The interesting thing is, all of these are recorded as having been lengthened to 30ft and having had Weymann 39 seat bodies fitted. The vehicle above, KEH 608 is correctly reported as being a mess room at Milton depot but no mention of the body. Does anyone know if this was the only one of the batch not to be lengthened and retain it’s original body?

Chris Barker

From the fleet history 2PD1 (price 10/6!) it shows that S306/7/14 were lengthened to 30 foot and re-seated. S309/10/2/6 had the chassis lengthened and were fitted with Weymann B39F bodies. This left S305/8/11/3/5 in original condition.
I won’t attempt to go into any more detail as the fleet history of PMT is far too complicated and I’ll end up tied in knots. It was a fascinating fleet!

David Beilby

25/07/11 – 08:54

The engineering feats accomplished by PMT make the fleet history somewhat complicated.
There is a fleet list (to 1977) within Geoffrey Smith’s 1977 history of the company, and the text explains to some extent (without identifying exactly which bus got what outcome). Unfortunately his 2011 book does not attempt to repeat/update this.
From the 1977 publication –
KEH 598 – 609 (AEC Regal / Brush B34F) were delivered in 1946 as fleet number 353-364, re-numbered in the post-1951 scheme to S305-316.
Between 1952-55 there was a re-bodying programme
Four of the batch received 1949 Weymann bodies (lengthened to 30ft) that had been new on a batch of Leyland OPD2 chassis (yes, single deck PD2s) which in turn received either new Northern Counties double deck bodies, or 1951 NC double deck bodies that had been fitted to pre-war Leyland TD4s.
Another five of the batch had their Brush bodies lengthened to 30 ft. This suggests that only three of the batch retained their original bodies unmodified. This contradicts what’s been quoted from the fleet history above. However, the 1977 book includes a photo of S313 in lengthened form. The one pictured above also looks lengthened – the original body style did not have 5 full length windows. The Milton garage was originally owned by the Milton Bus Company, which was taken over by PMT in 1951. Milton closed in 1980 as part of the ‘MAP’ retrenchment. The building seems to have been quite basic. Photos of past PMT garages including Milton can be seen on the Stoke Museums website here. The land around Milton Garage was occasionally used as a parking area for withdrawn vehicles, e.g. those taken over from independents and not used.

Jon

17/03/13 – 15:45

The Milton Regal was stretched. The fleet number had an 8 in a circle. I visited the Hollis collection to do an inventory soon after he acquired the Regal, sadly it had been kept in open storage on a old colliery and had been heavily vandalised and had been scrapped.

John Cooke

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1957
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Willowbrook L27/28R

This bus was new to Baxters of Hanley as their fleet number 11 in March 1957 and was acquired by PMT when they bought out the Baxter business in December 1958. It was somewhat different from the contemporary PMT purchased Leylands having a concealed radiator and rear entrance and by 1968 was one of only three double deckers in the fleet without platform doors. A similar but slightly older bus from the Baxter fleet became PMT L510 which was rebuilt with a MCW style top deck after an altercation with the notorious Glebe Street railway bridge adjacent to Stoke Station. L679 was allocated to Stoke Garage and is seen in Woodhouse Street outside its home depot on 10th October 1970. By this time it was normally only used for a morning and afternoon peak hour working on the Longton to Newcastle Estates group of services (numbers 98-103) where it was odd man out amongst the Atlanteans and Fleetlines. By the date of this photo was used in between peaks for driver training – note the slot for an L plate above the radiator grille. It became a permanent driver training vehicle in December 1972 and was withdrawn for disposal in 1976.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

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06/04/11 – 05:00

Would I be correct in thinking that these ex Baxters vehicles were the only PD2’s ever bodied by Willowbrook in this style? By 1957, Willowbrook had changed their design for deckers to the more rounded style, as on the Barton PS1 rebuilds and several deliveries to that design actually pre-date the vehicle shown. I believe the very last one to this ‘old’ design was a Daimler CVG6 supplied to Blue Bus Services in 1960.

Chris Barker

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08/04/11 – 05:00

Yes I did a bit of driver training in this vehicle but I must admit I liked my normal training bus better which was LEH 745 L337 NCME body.

Michael Crofts

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28/04/11 – 06:36

I passed my PSV test in 1968 on L337, I preferred my training turns on L466 (now preserved) as it had a sliding cab door which I was able to leave open. I remember struggling with hill starts on Penkhull New Road!!
The Chief Instructor / Examiner was George Clews but I don’t remember the names of the other two Instructors. Rather unusually the Driving School reported to the Chief Engineer rather than the Traffic Manager.

Ian Wild

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06/05/11 – 06:46

Hi ian, Yes my instructor was George Clews but my examiner was from the D.O.T he took me into a cul-de-sac by mistake and I had a devil of a job doing a shunt to turn around with 337. Yes those were the days on Penkhull bank….

Michael Crofts