Copyright John Turner

Hants and Sussex
1947
Leyland Titan PD1
Northern Coachbuilders L55R

The above shot of the Silentnight (Barnoldswick) works bus appeared for identification on this websites DYK page from John Turner. Pat Jennings did correctly identify it as FCG 526, it was one of nine Leyland PD1s bought new by Basil Williams in 1947 for his Hants and Sussex fleet. FCG 523/4/5 had Northern Coachbuilders H56R bodies, FCG 526/7 and FOR 837 had Northern Coachbuilders L55R bodies, and GAA 179/180/181 had Leyland H56R bodies. Interestingly, the fleet numbers LO52/3/4/5/6/8/9/60/1 were applied to these vehicles in sequence, which raises the question – what happened to number LO57? I remember seeing examples of the NCB highbridge PD1s in Fareham as a child in 1949 (though possibly it was always the same bus – a picture of FCG 523 on the Fareham service may be found in Alan Lambert’s definitive book on this operator, which is the source of much of my note here), when I assumed, as Basil Williams always intended the public to believe, that Hants and Sussex were another of the large territorial companies. I do not know what financial arrangement Mr. Williams entered into when purchasing these buses, but they all arrived new in 1947 and were all gone by 1949, several having been on loan to other operators within those two years. It seems very likely that the outturn finances of the Hants and Sussex group did not meet its proprietor’s optimistic expectations by 1949, and, indeed, the greater part of the business collapsed at the end of 1954.

Copy contributed by Roger Cox

There are three good sources of information available on Hants and Sussex, Alan Lambert’s book, PSV Circle PK14, and Alan’s article in the 2009 issue of the Leyland Journal on the company’s post war Leyland double deckers.
FCG 528 [LO57] was registered to Basil Williams personally, and thereby remained with him after the demise of the various limited companies in 1954/55. It was originally bought for the Midhurst group of routes, but after the "crash" it was used on the Thorney Island route. It was also used on the Sunday afternoon run to the Alton hospitals. It was sold for scrap in 1960 when the Tiger Cub, and Bedford SB1 were bought.

Pat Jennings

27/11/11 – 15:29

Of the ten PDIs delivered new in 1947, seven with NCB and three with Leyland H56R bodies, this is the only one that remained in the personal ownership of Basil Williams. The other nine were sold elsewhere in 1949 after only two years with Hants and Sussex, well before the 1954 collapse of the group.

Roger Cox

19/12/11 – 06:19

On the following website devoted to Bere Regis & District may be seen a photo of this very bus in 1953, which, with its fellow PD1/NCB L55R FCG 527, remained in the service of Bere Regis until 1960. It is the third picture down from the top. //www.countrybus.co.uk/

Roger Cox

19/12/11 – 11:01

It looks very proud, garlanded up for the 1953 Coronation. This is an old tradition which has sadly died out, too!

Chris Hebbron

24/10/12 – 12:40

You mean, having Coronations?

David Call

24/10/12 – 17:45

You’re as bad a pendant as me, David. But even we pedants can slip up sometimes, as I did here! I should OF known better!

Chris Hebbron

01/07/13 – 10:55

I wouldn’t want anyone to think that I’m immune from making ‘dopey’ comments myself – check out my one about tram wires in Hebden Bridge on the Todmorden Titan dated 18/09/12 – 07:31

David Call

02/07/13 – 07:29

Er, quite!

Chris Hebbron

03/07/13 – 06:48

I appreciate that this question has probably been adequately answered by one or more of the above sources of information, but these, unfortunately, I do not possess. I wonder if anyone has subsequent ownership details for
FCG 523/4? I can come up with at least one subsequent owner, in some instances two, for all the other Hants & Sussex PD1s (except FCG 528, of course).

David Call

21/02/15 – 07:08

FCG 524 was acquired 10/49 by the Griffin Motor Co, thence to Red & White and was disposed of in 1961. GAA 179-181 went to United Welsh in 1949 and also lasted until 1960/1.

Richard Smith

31/08/17 – 05:04

With absolutely NO knowledge pre-1970, the name of Basil Williams was still one that surfaced from time to time in our corridor of Southdown House, which we shared with Fares & Licensing. I recall that there was a bank of filing cabinets for all the companies Southdown dealt with on licensing matters – but Basil had a complete drawer to himself! Henry Frier, that Roger Cox mentions in the article on Bere Regis, sat just across the corridor from me. Did the notorious Basil continue post-1954 in another guise?

Nick Turner

01/09/17 – 05:40

Richard Smith’s post of 21/2/15 must have passed me by at the time. When I tried in 2013 no subsequent owner details for FCG523/4 would come up for me, but there are plentiful references now. In respect of FCG 524, there are at least four relevant photos accessible on the web. three of it when with Red & White, and one of it subsequently with Contract Bus Services of Llanwern. Here’s a shot of it with Red & White, together with other ex-Griffin double-deckers. //richardsmith.webplus.net/
There are at least two shots available of FCG 523, when with Stonier’s of Goldenhill.

David Call

01/09/17 – 05:42

Yes, Nick. Basil most certainly did continue beyond his 1954 cataclysm. After one distressing experience in which the transfer of road service licences from an acquired operator to his own business was refused, Williams always retained the company names of acquired operators, resulting in a bewildering profusion of separate companies that collectively operated under the Hants and Sussex name. Some services, however, were licensed to Williams in his own name as sole proprietor, and were technically not a component of the Hants and Sussex group, although they operated under that banner. By the mid 1950s, rural bus services were in terminal decline, and independent operators who were largely dependent upon such mileage began to experience financial pressures. In December 1954 the company’s bank and other creditors, who collectively were owed some £74,000 (around £650,000 today) applied for the liquidation and asset sale of Hants and Sussex. The Midhurst area services personally licensed to B.S. Williams remained in operation under his control, together with the Blake’s Tours business at Plymouth. From this somewhat shaky basis he gradually built up an operation that, from 1962,he named Southern Motorways, based mainly at his Emsworth depot. The implementation of the NBC local companies MAP (Market Analysis Project) route economies saw Williams picking up work that NBC reduced or abandoned, a curious reversal of the 1940s/1950s scenario in which Aldershot & District, Southdown and London Transport had (in collaboration) fought every expansionist move by the former Hants and Sussex business. Basil kept going right up to the end until he sold his Southern Motorways operations to Solent Blue Line in late September 1987. He died during the 1990s. The definitive book on this fascinating operator is "Hants & Sussex" by Alan Lambert. On a personal note, when, on leaving school in 1960, I took up a clerical position with London Transport (Country Buses & Coaches) at Reigate, I discovered some pretty fat files on Hants and Sussex in the attic, and gleaned much from their perusal. Sadly, I didn’t make off with them, and they undoubtedly perished under subsequent "tidying up".

Roger Cox

01/09/17 – 06:52

Thanks for that, Roger. I’d forgotten the Southern Motorways name but, sitting in the next office to Southdown’s Fares and Licensing Officer, Len Cole, with paper thin walls, I heard a lot. Road service licensing was something of a minefield, took up loads of time and money, and ultimately showed that it could be done without. I recall sitting through two whole days of a Met enquiry, waiting to be called as a witness opposing an Asian application for a Southall – Smethwick service. The applicant suddenly said he’d moved his depot up the road and the whole process had to start again. Like you and LCBS, I wonder what happened to all those SMS files in the end?

Nick Turner

01/09/17 – 15:17

Roger, may I query the date you offer for Basil Williams’ sale of his operations, which you state to be September 1987 to Solent Blue Line? I have a note copied from Bus & Coach Preservation magazine April 2012 issue which shows the last bus to carry the Hants & Sussex name. This is a Leyland National AAE 653V, and it was pictured at Havant in 1997, "just after H&S sold out to Southampton City Bus, and not long before SCB became part of First Group". Also, in Buses magazine Jan 2002 issue, there was a fleet focus on Emsworth & District (founded 1977). This article states that E&D ran Hants & Sussex for a few weeks in 1998, but found it to be beyond saving. Another Bus & Coach Preservation magazine photo in March 2016 issue shows ex-London Transport AML605H, and the caption includes the note that this ran for Basil Williams’ Hants & Sussex in 1993-94, before going to scrap in 1994. Was there a slip of the finger (1987/1997) in your input, or is there another explanation? With the history of Basil Williams fleets, anything is possible! I agree that Alan Lambert’s book on H&S is a marvellous piece. Published in 1983, it would be great if someone could write and publish the remaining history from 1983 to the end, with all the developments during the deregulation era which would also be fascinating reading.

Michael Hampton

02/09/17 – 06:26

I think Michael Hampton is right about the end of Basil William’s operations. When I was on holiday in Bognor Regis in the late 80’s or early 90’s I went to Emsworth and rode on an ex LT Swift. I also went looking for the Head Office at Hollybank House, Emsworth which turning out to be Williams’ house, well more of a mansion than a house. His son Vivian now runs it as an upmarket B & B, see www.hollybankhouse.com
The Williams family still own Glider & Blue Motor Services Limited although it hasn’t traded as an operator for many years.
I think Basil Williams died in 1999.

Nigel Turner

06/09/17 – 06:16

Michael and Nick, I yield entirely to your greater knowledge about the latter days of Southern Motorways. I haven’t ventured back to the Hampshire area from my East Anglian retreat for many years, and I can’t now recall where I acquired the idea that the end of Southern Motorways came about in the late ’80s. Thanks for the correction.

Roger Cox

06/09/17 – 06:18

There is a certain irony that the delightful Hollybank House boasts that all its rooms have flat screen TVs/DVDs, when one remembers that Basil Williams once claimed that Television was the single biggest cause of the collapse in bus use.

Petras409

08/09/17 – 06:33

My apologies to Richard Smith, I hadn’t realised that the Red & White fleet list was on his own website.

David Call

24/09/17 – 14:30

In my contribution back on 01/09/17, I said it would be great if Alan Lambert and Sussex of 1983 could be updated. What do I find? In an e-mail bulletin from a publisher of transport books, there is just that book, by A Lambert! The brief review calls the author Adam Lambert, but from the script, it looks like it is Alan himself who has written this, and is published by Bowden Publishing at £40. Apparently there’s no fleet list, but I shall nevertheless be an eager purchaser as cash flow permits. So it’s good news that we will have the complete story to study and enjoy, and congratulations to author and publisher.

Michael Hampton

23/10/17 – 06:00

Having sold a few vital organs to finance the purchase of Alan Lambert’s new book, I can say that it is well worth the cost. Hard backed, with over 200 pages, it contains the detailed history of around a dozen companies who formed the group together with details of their predecessors.
I imagine that it has been a lifetimes work for Alan Lambert to write this book and I would say that it is a job well done.

Nigel Turner

16/11/17 – 06:52

I’ve just ploughed my way through Alan Lambert’s tome on Hants & Sussex, and it really is riveting read: it’s the financial side of things which I found interesting – hardly any part of the group made a profit and the whole organisation seemed to be kept afloat on a raft of bank loans, personal loans from Basil, and loans between companies. My understanding was that the group was sunk by a combination of interest charges on new vehicles at a time when passenger numbers started to fall and fuel duty rose sharply – but truth seemed to be that he kept on buying "pig-in-a-poke" companies from all-too-willing sellers, and then wasted money in battles in the Traffic Courts and appeals to the Ministry in an effort to expand their licenses. Even if you’re not particularly interested in H&S or bus operations in that area, it really is a fantastic read: I must admit though that I found keeping a copy of Alan’s earlier work close to hand quite useful – because of the amount of detail the latest book treats each strand of the business separately, and its useful to have the chronological text of the earlier book available to be able keep happenings within the perspective of the rest of the group.

Philip Rushworth

17/11/17 – 07:39

Phiip, my reactions on reading Alan Lambert’s new volume mirror yours exactly. To your list of curious "business decisions" may be added Basil’s over eagerness to grab wartime and postwar contract work seemingly without any concept whatsoever of costing, so that massive contracts requiring much hiring in from other operators, who assuredly got their pound of flesh, ended up earning him little more than pocket money. The Hants & Sussex conglomerate was a classic example of a precarious business run by the seat of the pants, totally lacking any proper commercial costing system. In 1988, after leaving Kentish Bus when Proudmutual (aka Northumbria) got its paws on it, I was asked to undertake a survey of the Southern Motorways Midhurst operations. I found these to be of decidedly marginal value and made a number of recommendations, all of which were subsequently ignored. Right through from 1937 to the end the B.S. Williams saga was one of extreme financial fragility, yet the proprietor continued to plough his lonely furrow regardless of reality.

Roger Cox

18/11/17 – 07:35

Am I alone in seeing a parallel between Basil Williams and Colonel Stephens of light railway fame.

Malcolm Hirst

25/11/17 – 08:05

Malcolm. Ref your mention of Col Stephens I can claim no knowledge of Basil Williams other than what I have read in this thread. From that limited base I would say the two are worlds apart. Stephens knew the value of everything to the last penny and never spent a penny where a ha’penny would do. By dint of very strict financial control, he ran his empire of very marginal railways for around 30 years and noticeably, once he was gone, the empire disintegrated, which is not to say that it would not have done had he still been there. I can’t imagine any undertaking run by Holman Fred Stephens buying 8 brand new double deckers – it would have been 20 year old TD5s or surplus trolleybus bodies fitted to old chassis like Silcox did. I can’t imagine him going for expansion at all cost without having a very good idea of the costs and likely income to be had or quoting for work without knowing the costs to the last penny.

Peter Cook

25/11/17 – 14:54

Peter
I wasn’t referring to business sense but more the general penury of running a widespread operation with no money.
Also common to both is the attempt to continue to operate when any sensible person would have thrown in the towel considerably earlier.

Malcolm Hirst

04/07/20 – 07:29

As a child in the early 1950’s use to catch a Hants and Sussex Coach at it’s Portsmouth depot located at Cosham on Saturdays and Sundays for a visit to the Trelords Hospital at Alton. I remember one trip where the bus broke down at Fareham and the Driver was threatened by the passengers that if he didn’t carry on they would drive the coach. There fleet was not in very good condition. I believe Glider Coaches of Bishops Waltham had a connection to Hant’s and Sussex.

Keith Ray

Copyright Ian Wild

British Rail
1949
AEC Regal III
Weymann B35F

British Rail ran a staff bus between Sheffield Midland Station and Tinsley Marshalling Yard and at various times used this ex Mansfield District bus (fleet number 15), similar KRR 264 and KRB 88 which was an ex Midland General Leyland PS1 with a similar body. All ran in the colours of their previous owners. Later the work was contracted to Chesterfield Corporation who used one of their fleet of AEC Reliances to cover the duties.
One of Sheffield’s 1957 Regent V/Weymann is behind, laying over at the terminus of service 60 to Crimicar Lane. This service had been extended from its former Leopold Street terminus in the City Centre to provide a useful link to the Midland Station. In the background one of the 1960 Alexander bodied Regent V is about to turn left into Pond Street Bus Station.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

11/05/11 – 15:37

Fascinating. Was a regular user of the 60 between Crimicar Lane and Midland Station – especially on the said Regent Vs. Was never aware of – and therefore never saw – the British Rail staff buses of any description. PS1 would have been 1946 onward but Regal III would have been 1947 onward. Other than that, I’m no help at all with the date.

David Oldfield

11/05/11 – 19:32

Not a terribly helpful comment, but I believe C T Humpidge was responsible for the blacking out of the cross pieces on the destination indicators as seen on the AEC Regent V and he took up post following R C Moore’s retirement in May 1961.

John Darwent

12/05/11 – 07:00

Yet another fascinating Sheffield picture. In tram days, there had been additional cars on the Walkley section of the main cross-city route to Intake running between Walkley and the Midland Station, quaintly showing ‘LMS STATION’ on their blinds. When the buses took over from the trams on 8th April, 1956, the new 95 bus service was extended at the Walkley end from the old tram terminus along to Tinker Lane, and additional buses were put on between Elm Tree at the Intake end and Walkley (South Road) where the trams had terminated, but the connection to the Midland Station was severed.
To reinstate that link between the railway station and the city centre, and no doubt to the delight of Fulwood passengers who up until this time had managed to get only as far into the city centre as Leopold Street, alternate journeys on the route 60 Fulwood were extended from Barker’s Pool down High Street and Commercial Street to the Midland Station. Imagine getting off your train to be greeted by just such a sight as this one, of a splendidly turned out AEC Regent V waiting on the station forecourt. The heyday of the bus, indeed.

Dave Careless

12/05/11 – 07:03

Ah what beautiful vehicles! There were 25 PS1’s new to Midland General in 1948 and 24 Regal III’s new to Mansfield District in 1949. The bodies were similar but the PS1’s were bodied by Saunders, withdrawal of these started in 1962 and was completed in 1964, Two went to British Rail, KRB 87/88 in 5/64 and 4/63 respectively. About a dozen of the Regals were transferred to Midland General in 1958 and whilst MDT began to withdraw their remaining ones in 1962, MGO kept their acquisitions until 1967, just short of 20 years service. They usually worked out of Alfreton garage on MGO’s ‘rural’ services E2,E3,E4 and E5 between Alfreton and Matlock, routes with some very steep hills, but their 9.6 litre engines could out-perform the later LS’s and MW’s any day! I remember being taken to Matlock on summer Sundays and I loved to travel on these, which were always kept in beautiful condition. On arrival at Matlock Bus Station, they kept company with Silver Service’s wonderful vehicles and North Western’s Bristol K’s. Matlock was a great place to visit then!
Fortunately, one of the Regals, KRR 255 is preserved and I believe it usually resides at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley, Derbyshire.

Chris Barker

12/05/11 – 07:05

The KRR Regal IIIs were new in 1949. KRR 255 is preserved and active.

Peter Williamson

26/10/11 – 10:45

After service with British Rail KRR 261 went to Sykes a dealer at Worsborough Dale South Yorkshire.
Does anybody know if this dealer is still trading?

Gren

01/12/12 – 15:53

Am I right that Paul Sykes of Sykes is the same Paul Sykes who developed the giant Meadowhall mall in Sheffield & other ventures, one of the richest men in England?
He probably doesn’t need to strip buses much now, but is the company or yard still going?

Joe

09/06/14 – 06:55

British Rail in 1949?
oh no! Please gentlemen, surely it could only have been British RailWAYS ?
Unfortunately that error seems to be perpetuated by most of the present day railway and model railway press.
Despite that pedantic comment on my part, I have to say that I find this to be a marvellous site which I visit regularly.
Thanks to all involved

JOJ184

09/06/14 – 11:09

JOJ184, I’m afraid you are making the same error as those you are complaining about. There is nothing pedantic about accuracy and you are being accurate. Far too many people, particularly those working for various media, who claim great education, research and gravitas, daily project errors onto the airwaves, into print and on line.
Given their standing and the widespread unthinking acceptance by the public of what they read and hear, especially from rolling news and internet sites such as Wikipedia, historians and researchers of future generations are going to have their work cut out to reach the truth.
Rant over!

Phil Blinkhorn

10/06/14 – 07:56

I’m not sure that anyone is being accurate actually. 1949 is the year the bus was new. The date it was photographed with BR is as yet unknown. It would be helpful if someone could post the date on which BR changed its name, then we might have a firmer basis for saying which name should be used.

Peter Williamson

10/06/14 – 07:57

Phil, whilst wholeheartedly agreeing with your comments above I think JOJ184 has misinterpreted the heading caption to the photo.
While it is somewhat misleadingly put as British Rail 1949, the year is actually referring to the AEC Regal III/Weymann build date.
If you look closely at the side of the bus it is sporting the double arrow logo of British Rail and would have been taken sometime after 1965 hence on this occasion British Rail is the correct terminology.
Strange how the board was still known as "The British Railways Board" long after the name British Rail came into use.

Eric Bawden

10/06/14 – 07:58

KRR 255 is here https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/3601052489/

John Darwent

10/06/14 – 07:59

If I recall the British Railways rebranding took place around 1965 and included the change of name, the both ways logo and a typeface- Rail Alphabet. This justified a memorable edition of Design Magazine. It was a major step forward- clear and attractive. Apart from London Transport and its successors I’m not sure if any other combination of transport providers has ever done anything like this: logos have been generally messy, undistinguished or unnoticed and liveries- shall we say- lacking in design coherence and simplicity. Some, like SYPTE’s red and yellow or Lincolnshire RC / YTC’s purple and yellow were just awful.

Joe

10/06/14 – 07:59

For the record, JOJ184, British Railways changed its trading name to British Rail in 1965. So none of this thread would include WAYS!!

Chris Hebbron

10/06/14 – 08:02

Wasn’t the Sheffield Midland-Tinsley staff shuttle worked subsequently by SUT (using East Midland buses on summer Saturdays, when all SUT’s coaches would be in demand), and then by Booth & Fisher? I imagine the need for the contract came to an end when BR realised just what a white elephant Tinsley marshalling yard was.
And I’m sorry to be a pedant here: but, Phil and JOJ184, the British Rail reference is correct as the picture must date from after the British Rail corporate launch in 1965 . . . as the bus is clearly sporting the BR double arrows.

Philip Rushworth

10/06/14 – 08:03

I’ve answered my own question. Wikipedia says that British Railways traded as British Rail from 1965. My copy of BBF5 is dated April 1965 and shows KRR 261 still with Mansfield District. Therefore the photograph must have been taken in 1965 or later, so that "British Rail" is probably correct.

Peter Williamson

10/06/14 – 15:56

The point about the discrepancy between the date of the bus being built and the date of the photo is well made, as is the fact that the vehicle bears the British Rail logo, dating the picture to 1965 or later. With regard to the British Railways Board and the British Rail name, Peter Williamson has it spot on. British Rail was a trading and marketing name so, had this been a non nationalised company it would have been listed at Companies House as British Railways t/a British Rail.

Phil Blinkhorn

10/06/14 – 15:57

Paul Sykes the bus scrapper is also Paul Sykes the builder of Meadowhall and now chief backer of UKIP

Chris Hough

11/06/14 – 07:48

"British Rail" may be chronologically correct for the photograph, but it is still grammatically gormless. I still resent the term "Rail Station" which, to me, indicates a repository for bulk steel strips, not a boarding and alighting point on a particular mode of transport. Would Gerard Fiennes, if writing today, entitle his book, ‘I Tried To Run A Rail’? I can just about accept "Train Station", which is compatible with "Bus Station", but the correct term for the transport infrastructure is ‘Railway’, whatever the marketing morons would wish to thrust upon us. (Dr Johnson is dead; long live Dr Johnson.)

Roger Cox

11/06/14 – 07:50

For clarification, I took the photo on 10th February 1968 hence well into British Rail days

Ian Wild

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/02/15 – 15:02

EFE produced a model of an AEC Regal in British Railways livery. It has the registration HKL 842 (Sheffield?) and the code 851-SOM on the sides. Does anyone have any information about this vehicle?

Ian Rawstron

25/02/15 – 06:04

HKL would be a Kent registration Ian.

John Darwent

25/02/15 – 06:05

If you look at:
//www.classicbuses.co.uk/mdreg.html  and scroll down a bit there is a detailed history of the whole batch with a couple of photographs. It was new to Maidstone & District.

David Beilby

Beehive Services
1952
Foden PVRF6 
Whitson C39C

The top photograph first appeared on the ‘Do You Know’ page of this website and the following information was forthcoming.
The shot was taken in a scrap yard when this particular vehicle was presumably at the end of its days. It states that it was owned by Bodill Builders Contractors who were probably the last owners and used it as a staff vehicle. Originally it was owned by Beehive Services who were based at Adwick-le-Street (near Doncaster) and founded by Ernest Arthur Hart after he retired from being a centre-half footballer for Leeds-United and England in the 1930s. Beehive Services was eventually taken over or amalgamated with Wilfreda from Bawtry to form Wilfreda Beehive of Adwick-le-Street. Wilfreda Beehive still operate as a bus and coach operator in the South Yorkshire area and one thing I spotted on their website is that they have Routemaster for private hire.
If anyone is interested in engine shots let me know it may be possible with a bit of tweaking to bring out more detail which I would then post here.

Fascinating how there is a blur between unconnected coachbuilders. I know Whitson and Duple were north London neighbours, but that’s a Duple rear end!
Three or four years before Duple’s takeover, Burlingham put a Duple rear end on the Seagull (from 1957/8) and of course there was the famous and ubiquitous Alexander R type clone by East Lancs on various rear engined decker chassis.
These were companies independent of each other and it doesn’t take account of the fifties period when the same style could bear Crossley, Park Royal or Roe plates depending on which factory built them.
Come to think of it, though, Southdown had about 10 Beadle/PD2s built on Park Royal frames. They were virtually indistinguishable from the real thing – but no formal link between the companies. They were also Beadles last deckers, and possibly their last bodies, before concentrating on the car sales side of their business.

David Oldfield

I have little to go on apart from hunch & haze, but were Harts really Beehive’s competitor Kildare Coaches (note Irish link) and Beehive the Co-op (A Beehive is a symbol the Co-op used)? Or is that wrong?

Joe

It isn’t just the rear view that reminds you of Duple, from that front three quarter view don’t you think the sides of the vehicle look a bit like a Duple Roadmaster?.
On the subject of lookalike bodies can I throw into the conversation the similarities between the Northern Counties bodies fitted to Yorkshire Traction Atlantean and Fleetlines, Roe bodies of that era (West Riding / Rotherham Corporation for example) and some Alexander (AL?) bodywork.

Andrew

Andrew. There is quite a history of putting Alexander screens and front ends on unrelated companies bodies. In addition to those you have mentioned, there were Atlanteans for Newcastle Corporation and Fleetlines for Bradford with MCW bodies.
You are absolutely right. Apart from the immediate windscreen area, it does look just like a Roadmaster. Wonder whether they were Duple frames (in the same manner as the Southdown PD2s mentioned above with Park Royal frames)?

David Oldfield

I can confirm that Whitson, the coachbuilder, had no direct connections with Duple and were actually West London based, firstly at Sipson, then at Yiewsley. Their managing director, Alf Whittit, was a fiercely independent and somewhat flamboyant salesman with a liking for the stylish designs for which Whitson became well known. Initially their draughtsman was Charles Pilbin, whose style tended to be functional rather than beautiful. This changed with the arrival, from Duple, of Cyril Austin. It may be that Cyril Austin was aware of, perhaps even responsible for, some of the Duple styling that people can see in the Whitson body. I can also confirm that E A Hart Limited (fleet name Beehive Services) were the company that bought the Fodens – there were actually four of them KWU 24 to 27. Control had passed to Doncaster Co-op in July 1947 and E A Hart left to set up another company – Kildare Coaches of Knottingley. KWU 24 itself survived the yard in which it was photographed. I have a photograph showing it in the service of Carlien’o Brothers Circus, but still carrying Bodill names on the front.

Peter Tulloch

Thanks Peter, my mystery above is solved- Kildare, Beehive and Hart’s, although Beehive was a "logo" of the Co-op. I thought that Kildare, though (also) had a garage in neighbouring Carcroft, and then in Adwick itself, where they seemed to compete with Beehive.

Joe

17/10/11 – 07:52

Unity Coaches at Clay Cliffe Road Baraugh Green Barnsley also ran rear engined Fodens. They were owned by the Barnsley British co-operative Ltd. and were in a rather strange brown and tan livery if I’m not mistaken. They were bought out by Cawthorne’s in the late ’50’s.

Jess

18/10/11 – 05:31

Unity/Beehive- good Co-op words. Sounds like a Co-op-Foden connection: like the Co-op branch buildings, they were meant to last!

Joe

18/10/11 – 05:31

I seem to recall that Kildare Coaches were taken over by Shearings so they could get a depot in the Doncaster area,

Philip Carlton

16/11/11 – 07:32

Kildare were bought out by Smiths-Happiways in 1983 mainly for the premises which became a Depot and Tour Interchange

Tim Presley

24/01/12 – 11:10

KWU 24 spent the rest of it’s PSV life with R.E. Everson Everson’s Coaches of Wix Nr. Manningtree in Essex, where it was joined by JOT 106 A Foden PRFG with Associated Coachbuilders C41C Body. KWU was C39C.
It was painted in red and cream and gave magnificent trouble free service for three years – a wonderful vehicle. I would love to see a closer view of the engine compartment.

Wally Francis

10/11/12 – 09:15

For the attention of Wally Francis whose details I collected here. In 1955 a Commer TS3 with a Beadle body was supplied by my old boss, Ernie Harris of Fishponds Motor Co. Ltd. Bristol and I had been a young lad who had kept it, and the Garage showroom up together while I was employed. I would love to hear how long this vehicle lasted and exactly what had happened to it. The business had been done to Eversons Coaches of Wix, and I have 2 pictures – one somewhere close to town and the other parked in a stream of traffic outside of the Company premises. I do hope that this meets up with some conversation and I would love to hear further.

John Sealey

19/01/13 – 16:53

UHT 573 Beadle-Commer C35C. Fascinated to hear about the dear Commer. It joined the fleet in 1955 and replaced/traded in for 79 BPU a unique Page bodied Morris commercial [which itself has an interesting story behind it.]
UHT was a wonderful coach and made it in the fleet into the new livery of Red/white and grey – lasting ten years in the fleet – traded in to Moseleys and sold by them as a non- psv and turned into a mobile home spent time in the Clacton area funnily enough. Would love to see your photographs!!!

Wally Francis

12/07/13 – 07:58

Where were Page bodies built and what was the full name of the firm? Any photos of their products including 79 BPU mentioned.? Would like to know more as I have not heard of this bodybuilder before.

Mike Holloway

14/07/13 – 07:47

I think that the builder of the "Page" body referred to by Mike Holloway was Page or Page & Scott of Colchester who were principally car dealers. I ought to remember more as my late great uncle worked for them and I think at one point lived over the premises. Ultimately Page & Scott were acquired by George Ewer & Co who were not exactly unknown in the coach industry.

Nigel Turner

25/01/14 – 16:56

It was great to hear about the two Fodens and Commer TS3 belonging to Everson’s coaches. I went to school on all these. On one occasion the fan on KWU came off, and being a rear engined coach, it crashed through the rear doors and fell onto the road behind. Lots of other memories of those journeys and of working for Everson’s as a Saturday job.
If Wally Francis, who I worked with for three years, wishes to make contact I’d be delighted!

John Hull

28/10/14 – 06:55

I well remember this coach belonging to Beehive and taking our local Brass Band to Cardiff and later to Plymouth during the mid fifties. It was in dark green and cream.

Unrelated subject;
I was an apprentice to YTC in the sixties and remember looking round ‘Askins’ scrap yard during the dinner hour at a very tired Foden coach being scrapped, it had of course a Foden 2 stroke engine and an angle drive transmission. It begs the question why did Leylands struggle for so long perfecting the PDR 1 when the technology was already there? It took an overheard apprentice’s comment to get them to find an oil which would do both jobs of lubricating the diff and the angle drive and the gearbox after so many failed seals and g/b brake bands.
After a long and frustrating struggle to change the throttle pins on the Atlants. an apprentice was again heard to shout out in frustration, ‘Why don’t Leylands fit a hydraulic throttle to these camels? The next batch duly came fitted with Hydraulic throttles.

Jess

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

06/11/14 – 14:44

I now live in Australia, formerly of Fern Bank, Adwick le Street. My Uncle, Les Pickles, drove for Beehive coaches in the late 40’s early 50’s, I seem to recall that the depot was at the rear of the Adwick Post office. To my memory the early coaches had a Beehive and Bees on the side. Can any one forward any info and or photographs of these coaches please.

Vic Young

07/11/14 – 08:12

Thanks Vic- this is getting nearer to my hazy memories. I’m not certain that we have the story right yet!
The Co-op used a Beehive (with bees) as a logo in various places just like the one on the coaches. Do you know if they originally owned Beehive? Do you remember Kildare Coaches? I think they had a depot in Carcroft which became an NCB transport depot, and then moved to a site between Adwick & Carcroft. Were they Hart’s? The Beehive depot was in old Adwick village as you say… did Beehive and Kildare then amalgamate? to be continued…

Joe