Copyright Roger Cox

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1963
Albion Nimbus NS3AN
Weymann B31F

Here is a shot of Halifax Nimbus No. 251 in Elmwood Garage repainted for service with a new owner – I cannot now remember who that was. Despite its frailty and engine unreliability, I quite liked the little Nimbus.When I went to Halifax in 1964 I had only a motorcycle driving licence, and I learned to to drive on four (should that be six?) wheels during my lunch breaks. Initially I went out with the wonderful HPTD instructor, Arthur Brearley, in the old 1947 PD2 training bus, which, by then, had worn off most of its gearbox synchromesh, and I found this extremely heavy to drive. When this was not available one day, we had a Nimbus, and I took to this instantly. The six speed gearbox, apparently detested by most Halifax drivers, was easy to use with a light touch, which was essential if the middle gate was not to be missed. After passing my test, one of the routes I used to cover as a driver in the evenings was the 46 to Heptonstall, which, because of the unbelievably tight reversing point at the village – a narrow slot between two houses off an equally narrow road; even the mirrors had to be flattened against the bus to get in – a conductor was carried on the 31 seat Nimbus. The little Albion was certainly not up to the rigorous task of Yorkshire Pennine bus work, but it was a nice little thing to drive, and I renewed my acquaintance with the type some years later when I did a bit of moonlighting for North Downs Rural Transport.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/10/11 – 06:08

I know very little I’m afraid about the technicalities and operating realities of the Albion Nimbus – but I must say that this immaculate repaint to the order of a new owner says volumes about an operator who knows what a dignified livery is all about – its quite simply beautiful. If I didn’t know otherwise I’d say that it was heading for "The Garden of England" and the East Kent company in the good old days.

Chris Youhill

13/10/11 – 10:20

This vehicle was sold to Booth and Fisher, keen Albion Nimbus users. It survived to be taken over with that fleet by South Yorkshire PTE in 1976 and was even given PTE fleet number 1059.
253 of the batch was sold to Baddeley Brothers of Holmfirth and was still in the fleet when they were taken over by West Yorkshire PTE (as of course Halifax had been), although I don’t believe it was still in service.
258 was sold from a Joint Omnibus Committee to a municipality (Warrington), then to an Urban District Council (Ramsbottom) who in turn were absorbed into SELNEC PTE.
250 is still with us today, having spent many years working for Harvey’s at Mousehole. It survived long enough to be taken over by the post-deregulation Western National.
A batch of vehicles with a truly fascinating history!

David Beilby

13/10/11 – 11:39

256 also went to Baddeley Bros. Three others went to Wiles of (I think) Port Seton in E. Lothian but not sure which ones.

Eric

13/10/11 – 11:40

Another of the batch was sold to Wiles of Port Seaton near Edinburgh,I cannot remember what its number was.

Philip Carlton

13/10/11 – 11:42

Nimbus RJX 251 was sold to Booth & Fisher of Halfway near Sheffield. I believe it’s true to say that all or most of the Nimbuses were repainted by HPT for their new owners. For the record, they were disposed of as follows:
250: Harvey’s, Mousehole, Cornwall (now preserved).
251: Booth & Fisher, Halfway.
252: Wooliscroft (Silver Service), Darley Dale.
253/256: Baddeley Bros., Holmfirth.
254/257/259: Wiles, Port Seton.
255: Halifax Corporation Welfare Department (fitted with nearside wheelchair lift).
258: Warrington Corporation (later to Ramsbottom U.D.C, and then SELNEC)

I was still at junior school when these were delivered in 1963, and I well remember coming out of school after a school prize giving concert, and one turning up at the stop on the route 2 Northowram service. Not yet having discovered ‘Buses Illustrated’ I had no knowledge about what was happening in the bus world until I actually saw it, and the appearance of new buses was always unexpected and exciting.
I noted immediately the Albion badges, and the ultra modern curved windscreen – the first in the fleet and in total contrast to the earlier flat fronted Leopards and Worldmasters. Inside they were very tidy and bright, with flush light cream formica from floor to ceiling, instead of the usual MCW utilitarian painted metal.
As I took my seat, another Nimbus passed in the opposite direction, and as I got up to alight at Stump Cross another was turning into Kell Lane on the 33 to Shibden. They were everywhere !
Despite apparently having a four-cylinder version of the Tiger Cub engine, the sound effects were pure vintage Albion, sounding to me more like coal wagons. They had a characteristic nose down, tail up appearance, which seemed to increase with time.
Drivers always seemed to be struggling with them – especially the gearbox. They were hopelessly underpowered for the local mountainous terrain, though were capable of eventually getting up to a fair old speed on more level stretches. It was when they were at speed, especially coming down the hills and well loaded that the trouble really started. The brakes were apparently hopelessly inadequate and temperamental, and there were many heart stopping moments.
Although originally intended to provide feeder services from the various hilltop villages to the main road double deck routes, it just never really happened. They spent so much time in the workshops during the day being repaired and adjusted, that when they were released as available for service, usually during the afternoon peak, they just went out on to the next available duty, which would most likely have required something a bit more substantial. Consequently they were overloaded and thrashed unmercifully by drivers who hated them, and suffered as a result.
They were all sold off after three or four years and replaced by seven shortened, narrow Reliances with Pennine bodies.
I am surprised at Roger’s comments about enjoying driving Nimbuses, as all the older drivers I ever spoke to – without exception – detested them with a passion !
I also recall going on a transport society visit to Crich on a new Halifax Loline in 1967. We had arranged to call on Mr. Woolliscoft at Darley Dale to inspect his wonderful Silver Service fleet – including the withdrawn AEC Q-type. He had just acquired Nimbus 252 and it was parked in the back of his depot, nosed in towards the wall. We asked if it would be possible to bring it out to be photographed next to the Loline, and he agreed willingly. He climbed into its cab, started it up, and then attempted to select reverse. The bus lunged forwards towards the wall, and he hit the brakes – which fortunately worked on this occasion. He stirred the lever around and tried again – same result. And again, and again ! Finally, with the front panels almost touching the wall, and its owner red faced and cursing, it was decided that the only way would be for us all to push it out of the depot and across the road, and I think we then pushed it back !
I always found it difficult to believe that they had Weymann bodies. The were totally unlike anything the MCW companies had ever built, and one might have expected a sort of short, narrow version of the familiar ‘Hermes’ body similar to the Leopards and Worldmasters. Instead they were almost copies of the ones built by Harrington for Western Welsh. They were very neat looking vehicles.
I liked them though nonetheless, but then this was a few years before I became a driver, so I only experienced them as a enthusiastic passenger.

John Stringer

13/10/11 – 11:43

Albions – much neglected due to their early demise after their take over by Leyland in 1951. They should be remembered more fondly than perhaps they are, being side-lined into niches by Leyland. [The Aberdonian was a cheap light-weight version of a cheap light-weight version!!! ie of the Tiger Cub and was reviled as such.]
The Albion Victor VT21L was a Bedford SB13 clone with the Leyland 370 and a six speed gearbox. Generally regarded as much the superior beast, it was too expensive and too late to knock Bedford or Ford off their pedestals – and there were still Commer Avengers around. After this it was down hill all the way, although like the Leyland Panther, they still had success overseas where the home market didn’t work.
Booth and Fisher. A superb independent which ran by the end of my road on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border when I was a boy.

David Oldfield

13/10/11 – 17:05

When the Nimbuses were in service at Halifax, the bulk of the fleet consisted of Leylands, and changing gear with a PD2, even more so with a PD3, and exceedingly more so with the early Leopards, required the application of a certain degree of brute force. Also, it was not possible to miss the desired gate on the Leyland four speed synchromesh box. The six speed constant mesh Nimbus gearbox was the extreme opposite, and gear changing, which required double declutching, could be undertaken with the light pressure of a couple of fingers on the lever, and this was essential if the centre gate was to be detected. The gearstick did have rather long travel, and I have heard the characteristics of the Albion box described by unsympathetic persons as "stirring porridge with a knitting needle". The unpopularity of the Nimbuses was largely due to the total contrast of its light touch constant mesh gearbox with the heavier synchromesh boxes of the Leylands and AECs, or the even easier to drive AEC and Daimler preselectors.

Roger Cox

14/10/11 – 11:34

Was two of the batch painted in reverse livery and more comfortable seats for private hires.?

Philip Carlton

14/10/11 – 14:50

All the Nimbuses were delivered in conventional bus livery. The following year two Willowbrook-bodied Leopard DP’s arrived (269/270) which had the cream and orange areas reversed. Shortly after this Nimbuses 250 & 251 had their seats retrimmed with the same moquette as the Leopards and had headrests fitted. They were then repainted into the new DP livery. However, whereas the Leopards and later Reliance DP’s had polished metal trim above and below the central orange band, the Nimbuses had to have black lining painted on, as on the normal bus livery. On their withdrawal, some seats from both 250 & 251 were removed and fitted to new short Reliance replacement 252, though it was in bus livery. (The Nimbuses seated 31, but the Reliances seated 39). What was then used to reseat the Nimbuses for sale I do not know.

John Stringer

23/01/13 – 14:34

Sorry about the very late entry to this discussion about the Halifax Nimbi, but attached is a shot of 258 when it operated for Ramsbottam U.D.C.
I thought I had a shot of one of the other Halifax ones at Booth & Fisher, but it was one of the ex-Western Welsh ones.
Here in Australia the Nimbus was as successful as in UK, Rockhampton City Council in Central Queensland had six, 3 with Athol Hedges bodies and 3 bodied by Stewart & Sons of Bundaberg. They lasted into the mid-1970’s and a few saw further service with schools.
I’ll post a photo of the Ramsbottam one at the Stubbins Lane depot in 1969.

Ian Lynas

23/01/13 – 15:35

To see how unreliable these were just read the books by Geoffrey Hilditch who was responsible for them at Halifax. Aldershot and District borrowed one from Devon General and used it on their route 66 shadowed by one of their Falcons. They didn’t buy any!

Paragon

25/01/13 – 06:43

"PAYE" signs . . . you don’t see those anymore, do you? Halifax’s must have been amongst the more elaborate: an internally-illuminated glass covered by a drop-down flap – or as here, a slide down insert. At the time I thought YWD buses were very inferior with their black-on-yellow perspex flip-up/down boards behind the nearside windscreen – I think the KHD-series Leopards might have also had an illuminated PAYE sign to the rear of the entrance. The first time I saw a Leyland National (I) it had both its PAYE displays – to the left of the destination, and to the rear of the door – lit: wow! such modernity . . . and that I think was the last time I ever saw them in use. So: were these things ever a legal requirement, or just a passing fad? and if they weren’t a legal requirement why did operators spend so much cash specifying illuminated signs that were never used?

Philip Rushworth

25/01/13 – 12:33

Well, I guess at a time when PAYE was not universal (in fact quite unusual in urban areas) operators thought that signs (elaborate or not)might speed up the process if intending passengers were alerted to have their (hopefully correct) money ready as they got on. As we all know, that was a lost cause. Many city operators went over to "no change given" to save the time spent faffing about with change. And we are all familiar with the tedious process as a row of people board, each in turn putting his/her shopping, buggy and parcels down and then ferreting in the wallet, purse or handbag for cash, collecting the ticket, putting the wallet, purse or handbag away again and then collecting their worldly possessions together so that the pantomime could start all over again with the next "customer". (The essential of a passenger is that he travels. The essential of a customer is that he pays.) Of course twerly passes have speeded things up a bit – but not much.

Stephen Ford

26/01/13 – 06:28

See the posting of PMT 130 here  PMT 130 for that Operator’s early design of Pay as you Enter sign on the front panel.

Ian Wild

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

11/02/16 – 09:04

RJX 251 ended up after the stint with SYPTE as the Chesterfield Cricket Club tour bus. We at the club have just obtained a picture for the club house in Queens Park. Does anybody know what happened to RJX after it left our ‘care’

Vernon

Photograph by Graham Low

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
Dennis Lancet J3
1947-50
Duple C35F

I read with great interest Frank and Derrick’s notes on the Dennises run by Prestwells of Woodhouse Eaves. Unfortunately I’ve no info that might help, but here’s a Dennis Lancet J3 of about 1950 run by Smith’s of Reading until about 1964. The photo is by Graham Low, who incidentally contributed many of the illustrations to Paul Lacey’s book "Thames Valley 1946-1960".
Having always found buses more interesting than coaches I regrettably never noted the registrations of Smith’s Lancets, many of which had been bought in from other operators. By the mid sixties they were relegated to occasional contract duties, their place in the front shed having been usurped by nice AEC Reliances and horrible Super Vega-bodied Bedford SBs. 
For single-deck runs on the AWRE Aldermaston contract the office would say "Take one of the spare Bedfords" but I occasionally managed to persuade them to let me take a Lancet, and what a pleasure it always was!—though the other younger drivers didn’t agree.
In Classic Bus Aug-Sept 1999 there’s an amusing account of the challenges posed by the Dennis Lancet. You don’t sit over the pedals, but more behind them as in a car. The bonnet is admittedly high, but visibility is still good. First and second gears are to the right, third and fourth to the left, and for fifth leave the lever in fourth position but push it left towards the engine against a stiffish spring and then forward. Ease off the throttle and as the revs die back fifth engages itself noiselessly, and to return to fourth release the throttle for a moment, give her 44% more revs and again the take-up is smooth and silent. In contrast to this luxury the rest of the box (sliding mesh for all except fourth) is fairly unforgiving.
The Dennis O6 engine, direct-injection with 4 valves per cylinder, is quiet, practically vibration-less and very free-revving, but not a low-revs slogger, so hill-start clutch control can be tricky.
The steering seems rather low-geared, but is light, extremely positive and—unlike that of some AEC Reliances—dead stable. The brakes are perfectly adequate. The whole vehicle inspires confidence in the driver, and I don’t think the passengers ever complained either.
One Smith’s Lancet J3 registration KJH 900 was bought for trolleybus towing by the very active preservationist Tony Belton. I’ve heard it may survive somewhere. It has come to light whilst doing this posting that the above vehicle was in fact KXX 329 and came from Clarkes Luxury Coaches, London E16, in about 1951-2

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Thompson

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It’s interesting that Dennis were never mainstream but always managed to have a mainstream following – even in the ’50s.
Considerable numbers of Lancet IIIs had full and productive lives with Yorkshire Traction and East Kent – let alone with their biggest fan, Aldershot and District.
Was I dreaming – or did Smith’s eventually become Horseman Coaches of Reading?

David Oldfield

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Yes, David; Smith’s did become Horseman. The old blue and orange livery gave way to white. I’m hoping to get more details of the takeover soon. The Lancet J3 was so well made that I’m sure many of them would have had even fuller lives had one-man operation not demanded front entrance and so the disappearance of the halfcab. Interesting that the underfloor Lancet attracted so few customers and that A&D in particular turned their backs on it. I’ve never driven one, but 3 possible explanations come to mind:
a) Did the 8-litre version of the Dennis O6 engine work less well lying down than standing up? Piston wear problems? Only a guess…
b) Was the sound of the mid-mounted engine too subdued for the driver to judge revs accurately enough for clean gear changing?
c) Were the mechanical losses incurred by the double-reduction rear axle reflected in noticeably higher fuel consumption?

Ian Thompson

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Getting very technical here, Ian, but everything you say makes sense. The AH590 was not the AV590 and the vertical and horizontal 0.600 were not strictly the same engine. Dennis were always small and probably didn’t have the money to throw at solving problems of turning an engine on its side. [Even Volvo had to use government money. They piggy-backed development of B58 with horizontal engine on a government contract for military vehicles with similar layout. Otherwise Volvo may have been in with horizontal engines later than they were.] I’m no expert on early Dennises, but it was reported that the 06 was very smooth. As for the fuel consumption, if all else were right, people would perhaps have persevered. I heard that K4 Lances suffered twisted chassis at A&D, but I don’t know whether this was universal.
At least they gave the general populous a Lodekker.

David Oldfield

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Only very few horizontal O6 Dennis engines were 8 litres and with this engine there were reported problems of bearing failures from Glentons. The engine power was increased from the vertical engine by increasing the allowable revs and I am thinking that Glentons (on tour work) probably used this to advantage for long periods. The 7.6 litre horizontal engine does not seem to carry this stigma.
All the horizontal engines differed from the vertical models – an oil way was drilled up the connecting rod to supply extra oil to the piston bores. I have often wondered if this was excessive and it robbed the bearing supply.

Nick Webster

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18/03/11 – 16:13

I was based at RAF White Waltham, 1963 – 1967, and regularly used Smiths of Reading for Wednesday afternoon football fixtures. More importantly, Smiths had a daily contract to ferry our lovely WRAF personnel from RAF Shinfield Park where they were billeted, to RAF White Waltham, where they worked. The usual driver for this daily run was a veritable Mr Banks, who was 70 at the time, drove like a mad thing, and read my wife’s (to be) newspaper whilst driving if she sat near the front. Rumour has it that other, younger drivers were terrified of standing in for Mr Banks if he was away, as he would seek feedback on their behaviour and driving on his return.
Sorry, this isn’t a technical item, but it might add a bit of whimsical history.
Now, if anyone has a photograph of Mr Banks, with or without coach and WRAF beauties, that would be worth seeing.

Doug Adams

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26/04/11 – 07:19

I left school in 1955, and started work at Smith Coaches in the engine shop with Bill Collins, and after coming out of the Army in 1964 I returned, passed my PSV and worked with them until 1970. Having driven all types of buses "AEC/Leyland and ex London RT’s", working in the garage with Nobby Early, Coaches on Contract duties, and Coastal Services, Continental Tours with Eric Mills, I now find it hard to believe that the largest one man operator, with a fleet of approx 120 vehicles I now find little trace that they ever existed. Mr Alf Smith was once Mayor of Reading

Pete Brant

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27/04/11 – 07:13

Good to read Pete Brant’s comment. I’m glad to say, Pete, that some of the old hands are still around. Sadly, it was Charlie Heath’s recent funeral that brought some of us together: I met Bunny Austin, Pete Smyth, Ron Shackleford (still working part-time for Horseman, Jim Foster and (though I didn’t get a chance to talk to him) Bert Newman. I think we ought to have annual reunions! Very few Smith’s buses have survived: Ron S.’s Reliance, under cover at a museum east of Reading, is the only one I know of. I heard the other day that Dennis Lancet KJH 900, used for years as a towing wagon for preserved trolleybuses, hasn’t made it.
So the vehicles have all but gone and Rose Kiln Lane depot is built over, but–thank Heaven–some familiar faces are still around and Graham Low of Wokingham has plenty of photographs that he very foresightfully took in the 50s and 60s. Bunny Austin too has a collection of on-tour photos and apparently Jim Foster even has some cine-film.

Ian Thompson

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27/04/11 – 07:19

Hi Ian I also remembered the Rhonda Regents,the only vehicle you could bring up Southampton Street in top gear, due to low ratio gearbox, also was fitted with exhaust brake. Do you remember the old "ex Leeds Leyland JUG" we used on the Crowthorn Road Reserch contract during the construction.

Pete Brant

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01/05/11 – 09:25

A couple of photos in connection with Pete Brant’s comment on Smith’s of Reading. JUG 624 (1946 Leeds PD1 but with 1945 chassis number) stands in St Mary’s Butts and JDP 519 (new to Smiths in 1953) which I used a lot when not on double-deck contracts, is in the yard, with one of the prewar London RTs in the background. Two JUGs (the numbers escape me) were always used on the "Paddy Run" to Crowthorne and were white with dust inside from the clothes of the always good-humoured Irish labourers, who’d regale each other with wonderful tales in the tradition of the roving story-tellers of rural Ireland. There was a stop on the way back at the Jack of Both Sides at Cemetery Junction, but in the n/s mirror you could always see a handful of thirsty chaps leaping off the platform well before you reached the pub. I worked this enjoyable run quite a lot, mostly with the late Mike Dare, who co-founded the Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum.
You mention the good hill-climbing of the Rhondda Regent IIIs, Pete. I wonder whether that was also because of the 9.6-litre engine and lightweight bodywork?
Len Ledger was the driver and guardian of London RT FXT 229, and you had to be on your best behaviour to be allowed to drive it!

Ian Thompson

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04/05/11 – 07:10

So many wonderful memories Ian, on many occasions I was privileged to drive Lens RT with the coconut matting on the cab floor for those dirty people that didn’t remove their shoes before entering the cab. I was so sorry to hear of Charlie Heaths passing, glad to hear Ron Shack is still doing a bit, Tell him "Herman the German was asking after him. Do you know if Mick Smith "the Govenor’s Son" is still with us,? I last saw Keith Aplin at Horsemans a few days before he retired.

Pete Brant

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

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17/05/11 – 11:18

It was wonderful to read your comments about Smith Coaches. My father is Jim Avenell who is still with us at 80yrs young. I spent my childhood either down the yard or out in the coach with my father during the early to mid sixties and in the social club between runs lol, I was always there. Saturday mornings would be spent emptying the ash trays and polishing them with Duraglit while dad was on the wash in his wellies doing the outside, we’d then go up to the canteen for a cuppa and I would sit in ore listening to all the guys talking and joking around, the room full of smoke from woodbines and parkdrive, plenty of tea. Then back down to the wash and polish the body trims, oh I loved it.
We used to keep a pony on the grass behind the social club and people would feed it beer and crisps through the window, never forgetting the Christmas parties for us kids, Happy days sitting up front going to Harwell sitting in the shed on site, or going to Abingdon cattle market. One day we bought a dozen chicken and brought them back to Reading in the boot lol Oh so many stories. I have amassed a couple of hundred photos over the years and always looking for more or any thing related. Some of the guys I remember were great, guys like Robby Curtis, Ron Shack of course, Dave doe, Jack Pit, Reggy Summerfield,Grover,Steel,Kenny Haywood,Punchy Parsons,Chris Denton,Mick Goslin, Pete Fisher, Morri Hood, Ceral Gollop, Ropper, Dave Reed, Gorge Forman, Alf, Michal and Jacky Smith. Im sure I could think of more. So many good memories and all that’s left is the row of conifers that lined the wash.
I myself later drove for Horsemans briefly before getting my class one HGV, Later to become an HGV driving assessor, so I guess you could say its in the blood and the seeds where sown down at Smiths Luxury Coaches.

Paul Avenell

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17/06/11 – 09:00

Response to Paul Avenell.
Paul does your great collection of photographs contain any of the veritable Mr Banks? When your Dad was approx. 30, Mr B. was 70 (but still driving for Smiths), perhaps he might remember him. In any case, very best wishes,

Doug Adams

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24/02/12 – 07:15

9797 DP a Val 14 Duple is still with us!

Anon

Cheltenham District
1949
Albion Venturer CX19
Metro Cammell H56R

Cheltenham District was never quite the public transport company it seemed. Always privately owned until the late ‘40’s, it always appeared to be a municipal operation, compounded by the town crest its vehicles always bore on the sides.
In tramway days, a sprinkling of Guy BB’s supplemented its tram services, but, with tram abandonment, it ordered 11 Guy Invincible double-deckers with open staircases and open tops. This degree of discomfort as late as the end of 1929! Worse was to come, for many of them were rebodied in 1937, still with open tops, but the dubious improvement of enclosed staircases! The war prolonged their existence, their not finally expiring until 1944. Uniquely, it’s likely that the wartime austerity Guy Arab’s came as a welcome breath of undreamt luxury to passengers and crew alike! To be fair, some civilised transport in the form of AEC Regents with handsome enclosed-top Weymann bodies had augmented the Guy fleet when delivered in the 1934-38 period.
In May 1939, Balfour Beatty, owners since 1914, sold out to locally-based Red & White Group, which had favoured Albion vehicles long before the war. The first for Cheltenham were 6 new Venturer CX19/Weymann’s in 1940. Preserved 72/HDG448, shown here, has an MCW body and was one of 6 delivered in March 1948, being withdrawn in November 1963. The bus now resides at Wythall bus museum, mechanically sound, but needing body treatment. These photos were taken in happier days at the Bristol Bus Rally in 1977.
Cheltenham District, as part of the Stagecoach group, still ploughs its own furrow, having lettered routes rather than numbered ones!
The Flowers Ales advert’s a reminder that this Cheltenham brewery used tongue-twisting Stanley Unwin to make a series of TV commercials. Who recalls the catchphrase, “For the best keggy of the brewflade, Flowers.” Oh, deep joy!

Photographs and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

Doesn’t she look good in that resplendent paintwork! I suppose it’s not surprising that she looks a little faded now, 33 years later, but she’s under cover and secure at BaMMoT, where Malcolm Keeley assures me that all in good time the body will be assessed and repaired/rebuilt as necessary, which may well be a quite a pricey project.
Three of the civilised and handsome Weymann-bodied 56-seat AEC Regents mentioned by Chris went in 1947 to fellow Red & White company Venture of Basingstoke, passing in 1951 to Wilts & Dorset.
They were DG 9819 and DG 9820 of 1934, and BAD 30 of 1936. I remember seeing them (and secretly clambering aboard them in the AWRE Aldermaston bus park in 1955-56, where you could also see ex-Leicester Corporation Titans of about 1936 and pre-war Birmingham Daimlers.

Ian Thompson

It was a very attractive livery, probably my joint favourite with City of Oxford colours. I liked the way the light paintwork was carried under the canopy, redolent of LGOC/London Transport LT and ST class paintwork before the war.
One little aside about the 1940 Albions I mentioned above; two of them, 32 and 33, were delivered with sliding roofs, most unusual.
And at AWRE, I wonder if Ian ever saw any of the many ex-London Transport Northern Counties-bodied austerity Guy Arabs they bought. I think that someone had given AWRE the nod that these had metal-framed bodies and would last longer than those framed with ‘green’ wood of uncertain type!

Chris Hebbron

20/04/11 – 07:57

What type is the bus next to it, I remember long bench seats and the passageway on the right hand side of the upstairs, what type of bus was this?

John

21/04/11 – 06:27

In answer to the query posted by John it looks as if it is possibly a lowbridge Leyland Titan possibly ex Plymouth. A Weymann bodied Titan owned by Plymouth is preserved 114 DDR 414 which is a 1947 Leyland Titan PD1A it can be viewed at www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough

21/04/11 – 06:33

I’ve looked at the the batch of photos I took that day, but a better one of the bus you mention does not exist. The original of the above photo shows the top side blind showing THEATRE, but I can’t read the lower one. It’s certainly not an LT RLH.

Chris Hebbron

21/04/11 – 10:45

Good surmise, Chris Hough. My original photo shows clearly, with the aid of a magnifying glass (shades of 221b Baker Street!), fleet number 114 to the right of the platform!

Chris Hebbron

21/04/11 – 18:31

The top word on the lower side blind is undoubtedly Mutley, and that is Plymouth.

Stephen Ford

01/09/11 – 07:28

During the war Cheltenham District had a centre staircase bus that the crews disliked; because if you missed a step, you ended up on your bottom on the pavement, it was centred doored with the stairs straight up to a higher platform from which you turned left or right to the top deck by a another 3 steps, It lasted about a year before being sent to Newbury, It appears that it never stayed at depot long. I believe it started its life up north, before making its way round Red & White depots.

Mike 9

01/09/11 – 11:13

The Brush-bodied centre-entrance AEC running in Cheltenham mentioned by Mike 9 must have been ex-Burnley Corporation Transport no.49, reg. HG 1221, which became no.61 in the Cheltenham fleet, lasting there only only 8 months, till March 46. Apparently it sparked controversy even in the local press, as recorded on p.35 of Colin Martin’s "Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980". Newbury & District must have liked it better, keeping it for a whole 16 months. Although I never saw this fearsome beast, I did have a wonderful childhood ride on a Roe-bodied sister ship, HG 1023, Venture no.76 (ex BCT no.37) from Aldermaston Station to the village. As it swung round the corner and into view I wondered why an AEC should sound like a Leyland. At home in Reading almost all our AECs were oilers and the Leylands were all petrol, so I couldn’t make sense of a petrol AEC. Once aboard Mum forbade us from mounting the extraordinary sprouting staircase, so my sister and I had to make do with one of the higgledy-piggledy seats down below, where you could at least enjoy the music of the snuffly engine and chiming gearbox to the full. Pity the ride was so short! HG 1023 stayed with Venture until 1950.
I’m grateful to Peter Gould’s BCT website, Paul Lacey’s 1987 N&D book and Peter Birmingham and John Pearce’s "Venture Limited" for numbers and dates.

Ian Thompson

01/09/11 – 11:14

Quick question is it Cheltenham District or Cheltenham & District

Peter

01/09/11 – 15:01

It was (and the current company is, although it’s not the same company) the Cheltenham District Traction Company (no ‘and’).
However, just to confuse the issue, in tramway days it was the Cheltenham and District Light Railway Company.

Michael Wadman

08/02/12 – 06:17

Thanks to Richard L for the link to that wonderful video (and even more importantly audio) of Albion Valiant TWY 8. The long climbs bring out to the gearbox at its best, and there are enough steady-speed sections to be able to hear the intervals clearly, which sound to me like a minor third in 3rd and a minor sixth in second. We hear only a snippet of first, so I won’t hazard a guess.
I’ve never ridden on a prewar heavy Albion, but I’ve read that the gearbox had a much more subdued wail, just as earlier Guy Arabs only hinted at the incomparable wail that was to come with the Arab IV, sounds of which can be found on the Lancashire United Running Day from Manchester video on YouTube.

Ian Thompson

10/03/13 – 16:43

The Cheltenham District Albion Venturer CX19 Livery;
I used to catch this very bus to school every morning on the Cheltenham Number 8 Route… (East End, Charlton Kings to Cheltenham Town Centre.)
The Upper Deck Cream paint did not extend down as far as the second row of beading on the coachwork; but ended at the bead line below the upper deck windows.
An example of the correct livery can be seen on the cover of:
"Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980," by Colin Martin.
ISBN 978-0752421360

Dave M

01/04/15 – 06:19

Following on from Dave M, I recollect Cheltenham and District as being more maroon than red. Is the lighter colour on No.72 a livery from an earlier era?

Peter Cook

13/09/15 – 05:44

I remember often travelling on both DG 9820 and BAD 30 on the route 1 to Bramley when they were with Venture. I don’t remember anything odd about the staircase though.
BAD 30 had no rear number plate – the reg. no. was painted on the back window.
At least one of them had an "OIL ENGINE" badge on the radiator.
For whatever reason, these two deckers stick in my mind.

Chris Williams

17/12/17 – 09:24

Rather late in the day for this thread, but in response to Peter Cook’s comment, this photo shows what I remember to be the standard (maroon) CDT livery in BOC days looking resplendent on The Promenade on June 21, 1964, recently out of the paintshop (in Bristol?) and probably converted to four-track route number blind beforehand (What overkill!!).

Geoff Pullin

20/12/17 – 07:50

In response to Geoff Pullin’s comment about Cheltenham livery, this photo taken in 1979 (Derby Open Day) shows that 72 was definitely in the maroon livery. I am sure that the colour in Chris’s views is simply down to photographic ageing. You can’t tell the difference between the Chelteham ‘red’ and the red of the neighbouring Plymouth bus, but different they certainly were.
Looking at my own colour views of Bristol Ks in Cheltenham, in 1972, there are two distinct livery variations. One is the maroon of Geoff’s picture, although with maroon mudguards, not black, the other variant being a brighter red (not I think Tilling red) with mudguards in the maroon.

Alan Murray-Rust

21/12/17 – 11:29

I looked at the first comment in the tread which said body restoration would occur at some point. Well 6 years on and no movement and maybe none likely in the near future.
Shows just how difficult it is to get funding for all your wish lists

Roger Burdett

02/10/18 – 07:02

Flowers Brewery was in Stratford-upon-Avon, by the way. The Cheltenham Brewery was West Country Breweries (Cheltenham & Hereford before that).

Iain McDonald

06/10/18 – 07:26

Alan Murray-Rust queries the photo colours of the bus that I took in 1977. However,, despite the years in between, they do not appear that much different from what I remember. I’ve also looked at other photos I took of the other vehicles there that day and they seem to be accurate, having not deteriorated.
To look in more detail, it is quite clear that the roof in my photo is maroon rather than the red elsewhere. In his photo, both bodywork and roof appear maroon. Also, the Flowers advert in my photo is exactly the same shade as the bodywork it is painted on. In his photo, the poster background colour doesn’t seem quite the colour as the bodywork.
So was the vehicle repainted in the interim?

In earlier days, the Cheltenham livery was red rather than maroon, as depicted in the attached colourised photo of Cheltenham District No. 9 – BAD29 (AEC Regent I/Weymann H30/26R, one of six supplied in 1936, passing Cheltenham Spa (LMS) Station en route to Lilley Brook. Another one of the same batch and route, passes it en route to St. Marks (Copyright Unknown)

Chris Hebbron