X92 Nottingham - Liverpool Express Service

In the 1970s there was an express service, Saturdays only, X92, Nottingham to Liverpool via Derby, Leek, Macclesfield and Warrington, it was jointly operated by Trent, North Western and LUT. There were two departures each way, 0815 and 1515 from Nottingham, 0730 and 1400 from Liverpool. I'm fairly sure that LUT never reached Nottingham and North Western didn't have a depot in Liverpool so I wonder if anyone knows how it was operated? The 0815 out would form the 1400 return and would have been a Trent car but who would do the 0730 southbound service and 1515 return? Could it be that LUT crews worked North Western vehicles, perhaps as far as Warrington or is it more likely that LUT were joint operators in name only?

Chris Barker

09/12/15 - 16:58

I can vouch that LUT vehicles and crews did work as far as Nottingham. If anyone was a 'sleeping partner' it was North Western.
The service ran on summer Saturdays from 1966 to 1973. after which LUT would not have been involved.
As an extension of this for at least a part of this period there was a tie-up with Trent's X7 to Great Yarmouth and there is evidence of LUT vehicles operating through 'on hire to Trent' and Trent vehicles operating through to Liverpool from there.
At times it is known that LUT crews brought Trent vehicles into Liverpool.

Richard Allen

12/12/15 - 08:10

The X92 service goes back much further, certainly back to 1958. In "Glory Days" North Western (A.E.Jones) there is a July 1958 photo of 517 in Liverpool (not carrying a destination number) but displaying Nottingham. A Royal Tiger/Weymann seems very suitable for the run!
Back to Nottingham, the only help I can give concerns an argument between a pompous Trent inspector and a North Western driver. Circa 1970 whilst waiting for an X2 a fairly new NW Bristol/Alexander arrived. Mr Officious inspector demanded if the driver worked for LUT. Receiving a negative reply, he flew into a rage screaming "I want an LUT driver." the NW driver remained calm saying "I've just worked a relief from Matlock and was told to run back empty. That's just what I'm doing right now". He then drove off into the sunset, well not quite! The inspector looked as if he was about to explode, but was given a round of applause from intending passengers. He probably then went to phone the Samaritans.
What does this prove? Not a lot, but it would appear that LUT drivers did work into Nottingham. I used the X2 a lot, on rare occasions it could be a Ribble driver, but never LUT, so perhaps the answer is the X92.

Andrew Gosling

12/12/15 - 12:53

I think a distinction has to be drawn when identifying the start date for an express service. As far as I can see 1967 was the first year that X92 was advertised in its own right. That would normally follow a licence grant. A 1966 Trent timetable shows Liverpool (Tyne Tees Mersey X97/9)as a connecting facility with X2 in Manchester but I have no doubt that through running would be deployed when duplication merited it.
This was the classic format for service development in those days when railway opposition in Traffic Court was common. There are other cross-Manchester and cross-Nottingham examples and the Royal Blue and Associated Motorways networks were awash with them.
Once evidence of need has been established because through duplication has been provided it is a small step to establishing a new service to replace that. I guess that is what happened for 1967.

Mike Grant

15/12/15 - 13:59

Chris Barker's question has generated much "off-website" discussion and research involving up to a dozen or so people at times!
The short answer is LUT. A photograph has been located showing LUT 149 (8093 TE) AEC/Plaxton preparing to set off from Nottingham's Huntingdon Street Bus Station with X92 Liverpool on the blinds. Copyright issues are unclear, otherwise I would post it.
As previously mentioned, X92 grew out of X2/Tyne Tees Mersey duplication. The Trent X2 timetable for 1966 shows the Liverpool service connections at Manchester and a footnote confirms "Liverpool passengers change at Manchester, except on the 07:55 journey from Nottingham and the 13:50 from Liverpool on Saturdays from May 28th to September 24th 1966 when through coaches are operated." Clearly Trent had established half of next year's new X92 by then and the following year a free-standing X92 with two round trips emerged. Trent provided one car and LUT Liverpool the other.
Trent Part 2, 1946-86 by David Bean (Robin Hood Publishing) mentions a Trent/LUT inter-hiring agreement introduced in May 1968. That cleared the way for the LUT vehicle to be crewed by Trent from Nottingham to run on through as an X7 duplicate to Great Yarmouth - again supported by photo evidence. Trent would mirror this from the Norfolk end. X92 continued to be advertised as a self contained route but seeds were being sown for the next through service development.
The wider NBC/Greater Manchester agreement resulted in LUT's withdrawal from out of area services and Crosville came in as its replacement. National Travel's role was also being established and the operation shows as service M2 in the 1974 National Express Guide.
For 1975 the Liverpool terminal moved from Canning Place, traditionally used by LUT, into Skelhorne Street and reduced to just the Liverpool ended operation. That repeated in 1976 - still M2 and it's last freestanding service role. The equivalent journeys are in the 1977 Guide but are then part of National Express route 447 which consolidated the East Midlands - Yarmouth/Lowestoft routes generally.

Mike Grant

16/12/15 - 07:33

The Venture publications no. 10 on North Western written by John Banks with photos by G. F. H. Atkins casts a little more light on North Western's operation on this route.
North Western's operations between Liverpool and Nottingham date back to at least 1933 when they took over from Ribble the 14 hour route from Liverpool to Lowestoft via Manchester, Buxton and Nottingham. The service ceased in 1936 and was not in part resurrected until 1967 when the X92 commenced running between Liverpool and Nottingham, this time via Derby, Macclesfield and Knutsford according to the author.
There are several pictures in the book of North Western buses en route, primarily in Nottingham, to or from Liverpool going back to 1934 (JA 2262, a Harrington bodied TS6 in Parliament St) with one in 1968 at Huntingdon Street of the NW Harrington Grenadier Leopard (150) set for Liverpool next to Trent 202 a Willowbrook? DP Leopard which has arrived on the X92.

Orla Nutting

17/12/15 - 07:36

Thanks to everyone for your replies with the fascinating information, particularly to Mike Grant for raising the question on the SCT site. I've learned a lot from your responses, I certainly never knew that LUT reached Nottingham, that is something I would love to see a photograph of, copyright permitting of course!

Chris Barker

17/12/15 - 16:56

Chris,
Just for the record, it was David Slater who widened the net with the SCT posting, not me!
He maintains a website which amongst other things, has a lot of interesting express service detail. Of particular note though is the record of the Tyne - Tees - Mersey vehicle and crew workings for 1972 at www.ipernity.com/doc/davidslater-spoddendale/

Mike Grant

25/12/15 - 08:02

As an avid LUT fan and ex employee I have been totally amazed to read about this service, which I knew nothing about at all.
I would dearly love to see the picture of LUT 149 in Nottingham (cannot it be shown - as ' source unknown' ?) After a trip into the loft, I can add a little to the story from LUT Time & Fare tables that I hold, as follows.
Timetables June 1962 & June 1966 - No Mention.
Timetable dd October 1967, it appears as the X92 to operate on Saturdays Only from 1st June 1968 to 28th September 1968 to the following times - Ex Liverpool at 0730 & 1400 hrs. Ex Nottingham at 0815 & 1515 hrs. The service is shown as joint with NWRCC & Trent, but there is no licence number shown.
Fare Table dd Dec 1st 1969 - It Appears as joint with NWRCC & Trent with Licence number TER. 1445/45. Example fares - Nottingham to Liverpool 22 shillings single & 33 shillings return.
Fare Table dd June 28th 1970 - It appears as above, but the fares are now Nottingham to Liverpool 24 shillings and 36 shillings return.
The service had disappeared by the date of my next Timetable of 1976.

Mike Norris

26/12/15 - 06:55

Mike N, before you put your stuff back in the loft, could you give us the arrival times from the TT please. That might inspire a few wild guesses as to what on earth was going on in the 1968 photo of the NWRCC Grenadier that Orla has discovered.

Peter Williamson

26/12/15 - 12:28

Nottingham X92 arrivals were at 11:40 and 18:10. In 1968 when through running to Great Yarmouth was put in place, the X92 linked with an X7 12:00 departure from Nottingham for Great Yarmouth and the 15:15 X92 for Liverpool would be formed by an X7 vehicle arriving at 15:00. Trent/LUT vehicle exchanges started that year.
I don't have the NWRCC Prestige book but imagine the 1968 picture shows a Trent vehicle having arrived off X7 and ready to work to Liverpool at 15:15. It would be the service car (with an LUT crew that arrived from Liverpool at 11:40) and that the NWRCC Grenadier is duplicating.
I have posted some additional comment on the SCT'61 website in response to allied details raised there.

Mike Grant

26/12/15 - 12:29

Peter, I will scan all the Time & Fare Tables that I have and mail them to the Webmaster and ask him how he wishes to display them, either under this heading or elsewhere. Just give me a day or so.

Mike Norris

27/12/15 - 06:31

When I took the attached photo in summer 1972, shortly before Huntingdon St bus station closed, I had no idea why an LUT coach was running to Great Yarmouth, on hire to Trent. 43 years later, thanks to Chris Barker's original question and the subsequent replies, I now know!
Thanks to all contributors, who have explained the situation.

Bob Gell

27/12/15 - 06:32

I must admit that when I posed the question, I had no idea that the X92 had been linked with Trent's X7 to offer a Liverpool to Yarmouth facility. Now that we know through running took place, it would be interesting to know how re-fueling was achieved!

Chris Barker

27/12/15 - 08:34

Here has asked for, in date order, Time & Fare Tables for the X92.

Mike Norris

27/12/15 - 10:54

To answer Chris Barker's question, as the road mileage between Liverpool and Great Yarmouth via Nottingham is circa 225 miles, refuelling would have been at either end, the mileage being well within the range of the vehicles of the time.

Phil Blinkhorn

Comments regarding the above are more than welcome please get in touch via the 'Contact Page' or by email at obp-admin@nwframpton.com

Quick links to the - Best Bits - Comments - Contact - Home