Wrong Titan code

On your Abbreviations page the PD2/11 code is wrong.
According to Doug Jacks Leyland book a PD2/11 was 27' x 7'6" - exposed radiator - pneumocyclic gearbox - air brakes (Leeds only) not a synchromesh gearbox.
See also Leeds PD2/11 No214 at the KBMT site www.kbmt.org.uk/

Kevin Jagger

18/12/11 - 09:24

Not really a question but couldn’t think where else to put it.

My information is from the book 'British Double Deckers since 1942' by A A Townsin. It also states that there was a special model the PD2/14 which was 'similar to the PD2/11 but with a preselective gearbox’.
Can anyone sort this one so I can correct the ‘Abbreviations’ page which is here.

Peter

19/12/11 - 06:28

I think that Kevin is right. The PD2/11 designation seems to have been applied exclusively to the batch of 20 - 7ft 6ins air braked PneumoCyclic buses supplied to Leeds. I also have a copy of "British Double Deckers Since 1942" that I bought new some 45 years ago and I have noticed a few other errors in it. For example, the Dennis Lance K3 is shown as being powered by the 8 litre instead of the 7.58 litre version of the Dennis O6, and the gearbox of the Lance models should state it to be a four speed sliding mesh unit with preselective constant mesh overdrive fifth gear. All in all, though, it is a very fine, informative and trustworthy little book.

Roger Cox

19/12/11 - 10:06

The PD2/14 was a preselective Titan bought by Leeds only as a batch of ten 301-310 RNW 301 ETC Basically they were a sort of provincial RTL

Chris Hough

19/12/11 - 15:32

As a Headingley depot driver I watched in despair as the batch of ten PD2/14s were withdrawn. Determined to drive a "RTL" I booked a piece of teatime overtime at Bramley depot just on the offchance - by then there were only three "RTLs" still in service. The bus allocated was - I couldn't believe this - a Headingley depot small Mark V Regent (I disliked all 135 of those) which had strayed to Bramley for some reason. Standing in the depot were 307/308, both due out within minutes. Casting embarrassment and my anorak to the wind I approached the foreman and explained the purpose of my visit - I expected to be told to get lost - but to my amazement and relief and a flourish of his rubber he simply said "OK, take 307 then." It was a wonderful teatime, kicking off with an empty run from Bramley right across the City to the Barnbow Ordnance Factory.

Chris Youhill

21/12/11 - 07:32

Regarding the specification of the PD2/11, I think the situation may have gone something like this:-
When the 27ft. Models were first introduced in 1950 there were four models available - PD2/10 to PD2/13 (replacing the previous 26ft. Models - PD2/1 to PD2/4). The PD2/11 was intended to be 27ft x 7ft. 6in. with air brakes and manual gearbox, however like its shorter predecessor - the PD2/2 - there were no takers for this model and none were built. (The Pneumocyclic box was not introduced for about another four years)
Presumably hoping to secure a large order, Leyland were persuaded to build a batch of specials for Leeds with preselector gearboxes, more in keeping with their favoured AEC Regents, and the next available model number - PD2/14 - was allocated. As Chris says, they were in effect a kind of provincial RTL. I would guess that like the RTL they would have had AEC gearboxes and fluid flywheels, and it would be interesting to hear from someone who had a closer association with them who could maybe confirm this or otherwise.
When Leyland did finally bring out their Pneumocyclic gearbox, Leeds bought a batch, split between Roe and Metro Cammell bodywork. Strangely though, instead of using the next available number - PD2/15 - they chose to use the 'unused' PD2/11 designation instead, which model it resembled except in the cog department.
I have seen somewhere the designation PD2/15 used in connection with the Leyland-bodied demonstrator NTF 9, but don't know if this was a mistake or not. I think that this had acquired the first Pneumocyclic box at some point and became the prototype semi-automatic PD2, and the only one with a Leyland body. I believe it was an 8ft. Wide model. Does anyone know anything about NTF 9, and what became of it ?

John Stringer

21/12/11 - 16:50

The Leeds PD2/14s had Wilson gearboxes and a fluid flywheel

Chris Hough

26/12/11 - 10:35

NTF 9 was sold to Docherty of Irvine in 1956 and painted in A1 Service livery. Ten years later it appeared in the A1 fleet list in the first edition of British Bus Fleets 21 (Scottish Municipals & Independents) although a typo turned it into "MTF 9". It was described in that publication as a 1951 vintage PD2/1 which is also clearly wrong. Does anybody have access to the appropriate PSV Circle Fleet History?

Neville Mercer

26/12/11 - 11:22

The 2006 edition of the PSV Circle listing of preserved vehicles gives NTF9 as a PD2/15, and owned by Tait, Irvine - presumably the original owning member of A1? Does anyone have access to a later edition to confirm or correct this information?

Bob Gell

11/06/12 - 13:08

In Mr. Anon's recent posting about the Newcastle AEC Training Bus (Do You Know ?) he refers to the website of the Sydney Bus Museum. I recommend a look at this site because it must be one of the finest collections of preserved and restored buses anywhere in the world.
However, doing so revealed an interesting fact relevant to this thread, being that they have a 1951 Titan OPD2/1 and a 1952 Tiger OPS2/1 - both fitted with air-operated preselector gearboxes, which apparently was specified for a large number of Leylands at the time, prior to the Pneumocyclic box being introduced.

John Stringer

17/10/12 - 08:41

I am sure that, of all the posts above, the one by John Stringer is by far the most accurate. It has always been my understanding that the PD2/11 was offered by Leyland as a 7'6" chassis with air brakes and synchromesh gearbox. There wouldn't have been much sense in only offering an 8' version, would there? However, as has been said, by John and others, no chassis to that specification were ordered or built.
When Leeds City Transport wanted ten PD2s with preselective gearboxes (i.e. consistent with all other double-deckers Leeds were buying at the time), Leyland built them and called them PD2/14. When LCT wanted a further twenty PD2s with the (technically, still unavailable) semi-automatic transmission, Leyland built them but instead of giving them a completely new code called them PD2/11, even though they differed significantly from what had been the original PD2/11 specification. The conclusion I am inclined to draw from the above is this - that when Leyland built the ten preselects for Leeds it then offered the model on the open market (i.e. included it in its catalogue) and therefore it needed its own code. It would seem reasonable to suppose that an 8' version would be similarly offered, and that it would be designated PD2/15.
With the PD2/11s, I am inclined to presume that Leyland wanted to temporarily refrain from offering a semi-automatic PD2 until the general revamp of the model which was to come very shortly afterwards, i.e. when not only semi-automatic transmissions were offered but also concealed radiators - in other words when the range became PD2/20 upwards.
I am perhaps surprised that no-one has mentioned Walsall Corporation 823 (TDH770), an MCW Orion bodied PD2. In my copy of the relevant 'British Bus Fleets' book it was listed as a PD2/14, and there is currently a photo of it on Flickr where it is similarly designated. However, in the caption to that photo it is described as being 'semi-automatic' - I am trying to contact a couple of ex-Walsall drivers in order to hopefully confirm exactly what that means. In the PSV Circle PD2 chassis list it is given as a PD2/10.
NTF9 has always been an enigma for me - I've never come across any story of its activities as a Leyland demonstrator, my own first contact with it coming in 1969 by which time it had been with A1 (Docherty) for many years. Did it feature two-pedal control from new, does anyone know, or was it converted later? In the PSVC PD2 chassis list it is shown as a PD2/15, but I have also seen it referred to as PD2/9. In response to Bob Gell's posting, I am inclined to suppose that Tait, Irvine is the current preservationist - I've never heard of an A1 member called Tait.

David Call

18/10/12 - 07:52

PD2/9 was a special version of PD2/10 with a lower chassis frame, exclusive to St Helens. Lower the frame, lower the number!

Peter Williamson

If you want me to included the PD2/9 on the abbreviations page I will need to know gearbox, brakes and dates.

Peter

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