I have found reading through your website very interesting even though I am in no way technically minded. Between 1943 and 1961 I lived in both Bradford and Stanningley, so over the years I travelled on many trams, trolleys and buses including Bradford Corporation, West Riding and occasionally Ledgard. The thing I most remember about the WR buses was the upstairs with their long bench seats and lowered side walkways; I have never seen this on any other buses.
I have two questions please. One refers to trams in Stanningley. I have seen a few photos of trams there, but they all appear to be on the Leeds side of Stanningley Bottom. Does anyone know if trams ever ran to Bradford from there, and if so, when they ceased?
My other question refers to the old City Circle bus route round Bradford which passed along Killinghall Road. The buses used had a distinctive wider-bodied appearance, not used anywhere else in the town that I know. Does anyone know what the buses were and does anyone happen to have a photo of one please. Cheers.
John Tempest
10/02/13 - 16:10
John, as a youngster in the mid-sixties I remember Bradford CT's City Circle bus routes being numbered 49 and 50, operating clockwise and anti-clockwise respectively. (How visitors to the area worked out which was the most expedient for their needs I do not know, as vehicles simply displayed 'City Circle' in either direction). I'm not sure to which buses you refer, when you state that they had a "distinctly wider-bodied appearance", as BCT had been an early convert to 8ft wide buses, and nothing wider could have been operated at that time. Could they have been some of the early AEC Regent V/MCW buses (106-120: PKY 106-120), which were BCT's first 30ft long double-deckers, and also their first with front entrances? Although they were no wider than the older 'tin front' AEC Regent III/East Lancashire buses (66-105: HKW 66-105) for example, the Regent Vs did look more imposing, and therefore may have appeared 'bigger'. They were often seen on the 49/50 routes in their heyday, hence the suggestion. Also, although a longshot, in 1964 BCT had an AEC Renown demonstrator on loan, wearing a livery not dissimilar to that of BCT. This bus was more or less a low-height version of the Regent V, but it's lower build and squared-up frontal appearance did give it a very broad-shouldered look. It did operate in service, as I was fortunate enough to ride on it from Shipley Fields Road to Bingley when visiting my grandparents. Whether it operated on the 49/50 during its stay however, I do not know.
Brendan Smith
11/02/13 - 06:52
Bradford trams did indeed run to Stanningley terminating at Stanningley Bottom. The Leeds trams also ran to Stanningley as you say, continuing I believe up to Pusdsey from Stanningley.However in the early years of the 20th century (c1909) there commenced, following public demand, a through tram service from Bradford to Leeds (notwithstanding the different track guages), achieved by using a sliding axle and a length of tapered track at Stanningley. This system was not a great success and lack of maintenance during WW1 and other operating and mechanical problems led to its demise in 1918.
Turning to the City Circle routes these were for many years the domain of Bankfoot depot Leyland PD2/3's whose bodywork was some of the earliest 8 foot wide vehicles and possibly seemed wide in comparison to other vehicles of the period.
The history of these services is also of interest. After WW2 there was a new service 49 from Lister Park to Bankfoot (anti clockwise) and soon thereafter a new service 50 commenced from Lister Park to Undercliffe. (Clockwise.) The gap from Undercliffe to Bankfoot was filled in both directions by trolleybus service 34 (the first in the City)from Bolton Junction to Bankfoot.
Eventually the 49/50 services were extended and completed the full circle and the trolleybus service eventually disappeared. These two services have only relatively recently been axed by Metro and First Bus.
There was also a further 'outer' but incomplete circle - service 80 originally City (and for a time Holme Wood) to Little Horton (subsequently Bankfoot) via Heaton which only last year was withdrawn. Short workings from City to Heaton were numbered 79.
Gordon Green
11/02/13 - 06:53
The Bradford trams certainly ran to Stanningly Bottom and were eventually converted to motorbuses in 1942
The Leeds trams up Richardshaw Lane stopped in 1939 to be replaced by the 65 bus route to Leeds, The trams were cut back to half Mile Lane with peak extras to the 600 Group foundry The trams were replaced by the service 14 bus in the early fifties Prior to the first world war there was a through tram service from Bradford to Leeds with a special length of track in Stanningley where the differing gauges (4ft 81/2ins for Leeds) and 4ft for Bradford could be overcome Starting in1907 the service was ended during the first war.
Incidentally the village of Farsley declined a service to Bradford as it may bring "undesirable elements" into the village.
Chris Hough
11/02/13 - 06:54
Hi Brendan, Thank you for you reply. The time to which I am referring is the late 1950s to 1961, which was when we left the area. I have looked through all the AEC Regent images on Google, but can't recognise any one as being what I remember.
John Tempest
11/02/13 - 10:24
Bradford`s tram service to Stanningley ceased in 1942 when the tracks "wore out". It was replaced by hired buses from LT and Leeds, and in earlier days, had been part of the famous dual gauge through service between Bradford and Leeds.
Re. the City Circle route, the main vehicles used were the 2 batches of PD2/3 Leylands. Originally, this route was an extension of the pre war route between Lister Park and Bankfoot, which was completed into a circle during the early fifties; not sure exactly when.
John Whitaker
12/02/13 - 06:53
John, first of all regarding your comment in respect of the seating layout of the West Riding double-deckers, they were of the so-called 'lowbridge' type, this configuration allowed them to have an overall height a foot or more less than normal-layout, the idea being that they were able to pass under, yes, low bridges! Actually, many operators ran them not because of a bridge problem, but simply because of a height restriction within their own garages. At one time they were commonplace, but from the mid to late fifties onwards they were superseded by so-called 'lowheight' double-deckers, which achieved a similar overall height but retained central gangways on both decks. Of the operators you mention, Bradford City Transport disposed of their last lowbridge-style buses in 1952, while Ledgards ran a handful up to cessation of operations, but they were almost entirely confined to working two routes between Horsforth and Otley.
Of operators you didn't mention, West Yorkshire were at one time a major operator of the type, as were the much smaller Hebble company. As for the trams, the Bradford ones were gone before my own living memory, but I did travel on Leeds ones a few times between the City Centre and Crossgates. That doesn't answer your query about trams to Stanningley, of course, but one or two other postings appear to have gone a fair way towards doing.
The City Circle route is, on the other hand, a subject I can spout about, since it was one of my local routes in the late fifties. Firstly, in elaboration of other contributors' postings, my earliest recollection is of the route being operated to a half-hourly headway, and being numbered 50 in both directions. There were also half-hourly routes 49 (Bankfoot-Lister Park) - motorbus - and 34 (Bolton Junction-Bankfoot) - trolleybus, giving a quarter-hourly headway over common sections. However the 50 route was at variance with its later routing in that it operated via Marlborough Road (omitting the Lister Park section) and via Lister Lane (omitting Bolton Junction). In the late 1950s the route was altered to the one which prevailed for many years, the headway was reduced to 15 minutes, and the 34 and 49 services withdrawn. At this time the route remained service 50 in both directions, but in the early 1960s (I think) it became 49 clockwise and 50 anti-clockwise, 649 and 650 in early PTE days, and later still 601 and 602, although I can't remember in which order.
As to the vehicles used having a wider appearance I can only think that this was how you remembered them, since Bradford renewed most of its motorbus fleet in the early post-war period and the vast majority of the newcomers were to the recently-authorised eight-foot width. By the time the 1952/53 intake had arrived the double-deck fleet was 131 eight-foot, and only 65 (approximately) seven foot six inches. There would have only been a brief period in 1949/50 when eight-footers (such as the Leylands used on the City Circle route) were in the minority. Another consideration could, however, be the routes upon which you saw other BCT buses, since some routes (such as Cutler Heights, Tyersal, Bierley, and Wrose via Canal Road) did retain a predominance of narrower types up to the 1960s.
David Call
12/02/13 - 06:56
Thankyou to everyone who responded to my queries.
It explains why I have no recollection of tram lines beyond the end of Barkerend Road.
As for the City Circle route, I'm thinking my memory must be wrong. The people who have answered that question have done so with great authority. I have looked at photos of the Leyland PD2/3s, but they haven't jumped out at me. So I'll have to accept that I'm obviously not remembering things as they actually were. Thank you again.
John Tempest
12/02/13 - 14:53
John - re the City Circle I am not sure you are correct. Service 49 was indeed Lister Park to Bankfoot abd I believe it once had an earlier number (perhaps in 70's).
However I am fairly sure that the City Circle never ran via Marlborough Road (there are still no regular routes using it) and indeed the 50 I refer to was one of the first (along with the 74 City to Wrose via Manningham Lane) to use Queens Road on the other side of Manningham Lane. I can recall it starting at the bottom of Oak Lane destined for Undercliffe only. I have no recollection but am happy to accept that it ran via Lister Lane and I well recall it terminating in Northcote Road Undercliffe to connect with the Trolleys. No through ticketing then!
I have just unearthed a 1956 timetable which shows by that date a full City Circle as 50 in both directions via Lister Park with augmentation at peak times by service 49 from Lister Park to Bankfoot and of course the 34 trolley - not just the first in Bradford but in fact the first in the country (unless you believe them in Leeds !)
Gordon Green
12/02/13 - 17:39
You could well be correct Gordon. I remember the (49?) Bankfoot to Lister Park service in the early post war period, when wonderful Khaki coloured outside staircase Titans ran on it. They crossed our 7 and 31 trolleybus services at Whetley Lane, and I have vivid recollections of riding on these delights for an afternoon out at Lister Park.
Just how and exactly when this service was absorbed into the "City Circle" I am not sure, but I remember the announcement that the new City Circle was to replace it, and presumably some route adjustment in the Queens Rd/Marlborough Rd/Park Gates area was necessary. I have better recollections of the 80 route, which was of more use to us, and often wished we had PD2s on the route, which we did, for a while, when the "EKY"s were quite new, later being served almost exclusively by "HKW" Regents.
Oh for another ride on the 6LW engined TD1s!
John Whitaker
13/02/13 - 04:39
Gordon, perhaps I should amplify and/or modify one or two things I said in my earlier post. Firstly, I referred to the City Circle as being one of my local routes in the 'late fifties'. In fact I was born in April 1949 and was conscious of the local bus scene by the mid-fifties at the latest. It is certainly my recollection that at the time of my earliest memory the City Circle used Marlborough Road (although I am certainly not saying that my memory is infallible). However I do not see this as being inconsistent with your 1956 timetable showing the route going via Lister Park, since I myself would have said it was going that way by that time.
My assertion that the route at one time used Lister Lane does seem loosely consistent with your memory of the route actually terminating at Northcote Road. Are you able to estimate a date for when that was happening?
The next bit I do seem to have rushed a bit, since I am far from sure that the diversion via Lister Park (as asserted by myself, I should say!) and that via Bolton Junction were effected from the same date - they may have been or not, I really don't know. However one thing about which I am confident is that both of those changes (if they did indeed take place) were effected a year or two prior to the doubling of the service and consequent withdrawal of the 34 and 49 services.
John W, I gather that you have been around about ten years longer than myself, but we apparently did spend our respective childhoods in neighbouring localities. I was brought up in Bingley Street, Brownroyd (the Thornton Road services - trolleybus routes 7 and 31, short-workings 5, 6, and 32, West Yorkshire to Denholme and Hebble to Bingley - passed the top of the street, and the Ingleby Road services 49 and 50 were only fractionally further away) whereas I gather you were in the Four Lane Ends area. Some long-time friends of my father lived in Young Street, a street you probably knew. Another commonality is our childhood holidays in Morecambe, although in the case of my own family we subsequently went to live there.
Further to the above, I have found a mention in Stanley King's 'Bradford Corporation Motorbuses' of service 50 (described as being 'experimental') being inaugurated on 10 May 1953 between Lister Park and Undercliffe, and being extended to a full City Circle service from 25 July 1954. Mr King's inference is that the route was diverted from Lister Avenue (sic) to Bolton Road/Dudley Hill Road at this time, but on this point I disagree, I can recall the service using Lister Lane but the full Circle was in operation by that time. I presume his reference to Lister Avenue was another error, as Lister Avenue is on the opposite side of the City, off Wakefield Road. Also mentioned is the fact that the Bankfoot to Lister Park service was numbered 72 from 1932 (it had been BCT's first solely-motorbus-operated route in 1926), 71 from 1942 (it swapped numbers with the Leeds service for some reason) and 49 from 1953.
I did not find any reference to a date for the doubling of the City Circle service and withdrawal of the 34 and 49, it can possibly be found in the corresponding trolleybuses book, a copy of which I do not currently possess.
I was of course wrong in stating that the City Circle became routes 649 and 650 when the PTE was formed, it actually became routes 1 and 2 in BCT days, then obviously PTE 601 and 602.
So the City Circle started on 25 July 1954 and was operating via Lister Park by 1956 - which doesn't leave much time for it to have operated via Marlborough Road. I'm still convinced that it did - anyone else fancy joining the debate?
David Call
13/02/13 - 09:07
Well David, we were almost brought up together, except that I am pre-war (1939) whereas you are more of an "EKY"
Fairweather Green, me, so I know Young Street very well. Memory plays tricks when you get to my vintage, but I do remember riding on the Leylands going past Marlborough Cinema (Marlborough Rd?) in the mid 1950s. Must have been City Circle.
However, whatever our greatly missed old friend, Stanley King says, must be 100% correct! I would not question Stanleys statements on anything connected with BCT!
John Whitaker
13/02/13 - 14:33
David (Sorry for calling you John) and John W
We were all brought up close together - My age puts me half way between you both - I was brought up in Heaton and my father was a Dentist in Girlington.
I think that between the three of us we have sorted the City Circle question and are in general agreement.
John W, the Marlbrough Cinema was at the junction of Carlisle Road Marlborough Road and Conduit Street where the route cut through to St Mary's Road and Oak Lane. Unfortunately that does not resolve the earlier routing.
Also John you have confirmed what I had begun to think was just childhood imagination - I can (just) remember one of the open staircase vehicles making an appearance on the 79 or 80 through Heaton when I was very young.
The reference to Stanley King is also of interest to me, he was also a Heatonian who I knew. He and I attended the same School (at different times) and I have recently written an Obituary for our School magazine covering not only his Transport interests but also his wider contribution to the life of his home City.
If anyone expresses an interest and with Peter's permission I will gladly reproduce it on this site.
Gordon Green
13/02/13 - 14:35
Well David, I have been scratching my head all morning about the City Circle! What a can of worms has been opened here........
I vividly remember catching the Circle, anti clockwise, after the Valley Parade match (My BP has soared since the Wembley news!!) as a variation from the AEC 80 route way home. This stopped at Queens Road, went up to Manningham Lane, and turned right to Lister Park, and then left up Oak Lane, where it stopped for a stage/time adjustment. The gurgle of the 0600 tickover reinforces this memory. It then proceeded up Oak Lane, turning left into St Marys Road, before rejoining Marlborough Rd and Carlisle Road. (I THINK!) BUT, I have memories anti clockwise, of going down Marlborough Road, and across the Lane, going straight down Queens Road.
There is also photographic evidence of Leylands "laying over" at Oak Lane/Park Gates, and they were not on the 80.
So I am as confused as ever, and in my typical "CKW" manner, I am probably confusing everyone else!
My above remarks apply to memories from 1950 to 1963.
I hope we can get some clarification of the exact routing in the Manningham area from you chaps with more recent "registration"
John Whitaker
13/02/13 - 16:04
Well John, I am with you anti-clockwise, and to fill in the missing streets after St Mary's Road it was right into Skinner Lane which then became as I said Conduit Street and then right at the Marlborough Cinema into Carlisle Road. My only recollection of the clockwise (which is what I think you meant) was the reverse BUT I wonder whether the use of Marlborough Road direct to Manningham Lane was a temporary diversion because of some road works - that just rings a vague bell.
Gordon Green
13/02/13 - 16:05
Hello Gordon. you must carry a DKY reg. then! I remember all the Girlington shops as though it were yesterday!
Stanley was a good friend of ours, mainly from my days in the 1950s as editor of "The Bradford Transport Review", and latterly, through the Bradford Trollybus Association".
I think it would be very appropriate for him to be remembered on this site, as you suggest, as he was known and respected nationally.
He would have "chapter and verse" on the City Circle route.
I am from Templars Way, so we enjoyed the Thornton AND Allerton routes, supplemented by Hebble and West Yorkshire, plus the 80 motorbus, as well as the cause of our current deliberations, the City Circle. Wonderful memories.
Good old Bradford!
John Whitaker
14/02/13 - 08:52
Yes you are spot on with DKY. I remember the Bradford Transport Review and Templars Way - indeed I still live in the Bradford area.
Totally off subject but something has just come to mind concerning the HKW tin fronts. 104 and 105 (regulars on the 79/80) were different. 104 had a black plastic pole on the rear platform and 105 had top vents on the front upper deck windows and wooden seats backs upstairs.
I have sent Stanley's obituary for publication it can be read at this link.
Gordon Green
14/02/13 - 10:57
Hello Gordon, and thank you for placing the obituary for Stanley King on the site. Thanks to Peter too. I lived in Heaton 1964 to 1968 after I was married, so we were probably neighbours. We moved away in 1968.
Re. City Circle, I have found a reference in the D. J. Croft book to say the City Circle route commenced 25 July 1954.
You mention 104/5. I was not aware of any difference in 104, but 105 was slightly modified as new, with front window vents and "oak backed " seats as you say. I believe both features were eliminated in its later life. There were other detail differences too, mainly with regard to cantrail ventilators, and the first delivery, of course, had grey roofs. Much nicer!
John Whitaker
14/02/13 - 16:28
Regarding HKW 105. This batch of buses were the first I remember as a child living in Otley Road Bradford. Can anyone confirm that 105 also had arrow flashing trafficators front and rear from new replaced after a few years.
Geoff S
15/02/13 - 05:50
Good question Geoff S!
We BELIEVE 105 had flashing arrow trafficators fitted some time c.1953, but not from new, and not sure if and when these were removed or modified.
I vividly remember 105 when new...in fact, we were invited to Ludlam Street at the time, and I sat in the cab, and was happy for weeks afterwards, but I cannot visualise the "arrows" to which you refer!
John Whitaker
15/02/13 - 12:00
Hello again Geoff S.
My old friend Richard Fieldhouse, has unearthed a 1957 copy of "Bradford Transport Review"
It states therein, that 105 was the first Bradford motorbus to be fitted with flashing trafficators, on May 1 1954.
Trolleybus 758 had been fitted with Lucas units May 30 1952. I typed this at the time, but had totally forgotten!
We were very lucky, as Richard has recently posted under the Sheffield PS1 topic, in that we were able to visit Thornbury and Ludlam Street on many occasions due to the kindness of a neighbour, and such adventures included sitting in bus cabs, 105 included. Would that happen today? (!!)
John Whitaker
16/02/13 - 11:23
Although living in Hull I was a frequent visitor to Bradford in the Sixties and seventies to the official farewell tours. I also took the Bradford Transport Review until its demise.
The Bradford timetable dated 17 December 1962 has service 34 Bolton-Bankfoot trolleybuses running at a six-minute headway at peaks M-F, 15 minutes at othertimes and a 7/8 minute headway from 11:40 on Saturdays The 34 ceased on 19 February 1964 being replaced with an enhanced city circle route 15 minutes offpeak, 10 minutes peak. Previously an all-day half-hourly service ran.
On the back of the system map in the timetable booklet is a route plan of the city circle
Bankfoot - Rooley Lane - Sticker Lane - Killinghall Road - Dudley Hill Road - Bolton - Bolton Road - Queens Road - Manningham Lane - Oak Lane - Conduit Street - Carlisle Road - Whetley Lane - Ingleby Road - Horton Grange Road - Horton Park Avenue - Little Horton Lane - Thornton Lane - Manchester Road - Bankfoot.
Hope this helps
I knew Stanley King and last saw him at the Sandtoft gathering in 2012 when over two coffees we discussed the Leeds trolleybus project - members of the Bradford Transport Committee, the managers and compared notes on the Roe bodies fitted to Bradford's BUTs 740-751 and Hull's Sunbeams 91-100 (which were superior). He will be greatly missed.
Malcolm Wells
16/02/13 - 14:45
Thank you Malcolm for the clarification of the City Circle routing, and for your reminiscences about our mutual friend, Stanley. He was indeed, a truly great and genuine man who will really be missed.
I was intrigued at your comparison of Hull`s F4As with BCPT 740-751. The Hull ones were superb and I remember riding on them on one of my forays to Hull from our Bradford tram bungalow at Skipsea, but they had the earlier style of Roe body with the split rear emergency window. However, a BUT with EE410 motors at 120hp just exuded a sense of pure silent power.
I am delighted to learn of so many subscribers to the BTR, which was the joint idea of myself, and Maurice Peck, in 1955, but which would never have started without the input of Stanley, plus a few other local enthusiasts.
John Whitaker
22/02/13 - 06:05
John, There was one other vital difference between the two Roe bodies - Hull's had cab and saloon heaters - Hull's trolleybuses had them from 1937 - the installation in Leylands 1 - 26 caused a stir at the Ministry of Transport.
Malcolm Wells
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