I was born in 1965, the same year that NCT's Renowns entered service. Growing up on Clifton Estate these have always been amongst my favourite vehicles. I remember sometime in 1972 that a number of Renowns were allocated to Bilborough depot as they appeared on the 53, and I would also see them on 55s and 60s when we visited my grandmother, who lived on Bracebridge Drive. Later some were allocated to Parliament Street Depot for use on Clifton services 61, 61A, 67 and 68, as well as 39s and 72s which were amongst the last crew operated services in Nottingham. Bullwell also had an allocation for 43s and 75s and also for 44s and 71s until these were converted to OMO, I believe in early 1976.
I would be grateful if anybody could furnish me with more accurate information as to depot allocations and the services that these fantastic vehicles were used upon from delivery until final withdrawal in 1977. In particular the earlier days which I was too young to remember.
Andy Johnson
03/02/13 - 07:01
Andy, As you know Nottingham had two batches of AEC Renowns. The first batch - 351 to 385 entered service between February and June 1965. The second batch - 386 to 392 entered service in November and December 1965. The first batch were used in the trolleybus replacement programme by direct replacement of trolleybuses on service 41 (from 1st May 1965) and by releasing Fleetlines and Atlanteans from various services such as those to Clifton and Bestwood Park for trolleybus replacement on services 43 (from 1st April 1965) and 42/44 from 1st June 1965. When the last stage of the trolleybus replacement programme took effect from 1st July 1966 Renowns were used on services 36 and 37.
In addition to use from Bilborough Depot on services 56/60 etc that you mention, Renowns were also used at Sherwood Depot for services 31/50. By December 1974 numbers 351 to 385 were at Bulwell Depot and numbers 386 to 392 at Parliament Street Depot. Parliament Street also had numbers 393/394, the two ex West Bridgford Renowns.
You mention the conversion of the Bulwell and Carlton services to OMO. Services 44/71 were converted on 23/2/75 and services 35/43/75/85 on 13/9/76. The Carlton services - 39/72 were converted on 26/6/77.
Hope this information helps.
Michael Elliott
03/02/13 - 12:12
Michael, I've been doing some research relating to the end of normal crew operation in the UK and seeing your reply above makes me realise you are obviously very knowledgeable re. Nottingham! It's a fleet I haven't been able to obtain detailed information for, but one source (can't remember which unfortunately) advised me that the last crew-operated route(s) were those to Clifton, which became o-p-o in Autumn 1979. Are you able to confirm or deny this for me please? Regards.
Dave Towers
05/02/13 - 06:50
Your information that NCT's Clifton services were the last conversions to OPO is correct but the date was not Autumn 1979.
The first conversion was of the services using Farnborough Road on the eastern perimeter of Clifton on 8/5/83. The service involved were the 40/41 via Clifton Bridge and 61 via Trent Bridge. These services became cross city with the 40 going to St. Ann's and Sherwood and the 41/61 to St. Ann's only. South Notts, with an historic 25% share of the total Clifton mileage, were not involved in these services.
The next phase was from 21/4/85 when services 46/47/48 via Clifton Bridge and NCT's share of services 67/68 via Trent Bridge were converted, though there were still some crew operation by NCT. South Notts continued with crew operation on their share of the 67/68.
From 17/11/85 total operation of services 67/68 passed to South Notts and NCT continued with 100% OPO on services 40/41/61 and 47/48. Service 46 was discontinued and service 69 (OPO) via Trent Bridge introduced.
Further changes to the Clifton services have of course taken place since November 1985. The above gives details of the conversion from crew operation that you sought.
Hope the information helps with your research.
Michael Elliott
06/02/13 - 07:16
Michael, thanks very much for your reply. I must say I was surprised to read about crew operations as late as 1985. My 1979 date actually came from Nottingham City Transport's own website! www.nctx.co.uk/about/ To sum up therefore, do I take it that 17/11/85 was the date when NCT finally bade farewell to conductors on its regular services? Regards.
Dave Towers
07/02/13 - 06:48
Dave,
Unfortunately NCT's web site is wrong. The conversion of services to OMO/OPO was as follows:
04/01/70 - services 2,6,17,18,28,49 and 64 at Parliament Street Depot (Bagthorpe Rota);
13/09/70 - services 3,8,25,25A,25B,58 and 59 at Parliament Street Depot (Sneinton Dale Rota);
07/03/71 - services 9,11,12,14,21,24,26,45,54 and 65 at Parliament Street Depot (Gordon Road Rota)- this stage of the conversion programme also involved the transfer of some workings on the 11,12,14 & 24 from Trent Bridge Depot to Parliament Street. Trent Bridge Depot closed on 24/04/71 with its remaining workings transferred to Parliament Street and continuing as crew operated.
25/07/71 - services 10,20,31,50,52,57,69 and 73 at Sherwood Depot - this stage of the conversion programme involved Parliament Street's share of services 10,20,52,57,69 & 73 (the Arnold services) transferring to Sherwood Depot.
09/01/72 - services 4,4A,5,5A,19 and 63 at Parliament Street Depot (Beeston Rota) - this stage of the conversion programme also involved the conversion of services 36,37 & 41 to OMO, which were transferred from the Carlton Rota at Parliament Street to the Beeston Rota.
04/03/73 - services 13,16,16A,30,32,53,56,60,62 and 74 at Bilborough Depot (200 rota);
20/01/74 - services 40/47 at Parliament Street Depot (Kildare Rota) the Clifton services which had been part of the Kildare Rota were split off and remained crew operated.
017/03/74 - services 1,7 and 22 prior to conversion these services were operated from Bulwell Depot -700 Rota - but on conversion 'bus side' (as the 700 rota was known) went to Bilborough Depot.
23/02/75 - services 44/71 at Bulwell Depot;
12/09/76 - services 35,43,75 & 85 at Bulwell Depot;
26/06/77 - services 39,72 and 80 at Parliament Street Depot (Carlton Rota);
20/04/80 - a tidying up exercise at Parliament Street Depot with the conversion of services 55 (renumbered 35 on conversion)and shoppers' services 70 and 78 (renumbered 71 on conversion).
The Clifton conversions on 08/05/83,21/04/85 and 17/11/85 then followed as already detailed.
Owning to the City Council's agreement that there would be no redundancies resulting from the OMO conversion programme the remaining conductors at the 21/04/85 stage also acted as attendants on the 'Accessline' services introduced from 22/04/85 (using ex West Yorkshire PTE/Merseyside PTE Bristol LHS buses). Those conductors still employed at 17/11/85 continued in the role as attendants, in declining numbers, until 'deregulation' took place in October 1986 when NCT Ltd did not continue with the City Council inspired 'Accessline' services. In these circumstances redundancy occurred on 25/10/86.
Hope this 'sets the record straight' for you.
Michael Elliott
07/02/13 - 14:05
It goes without saying that conversion to OMO/OPO is not to be confused with conversion from traditional half-cab to rear-engine vehicles (though this was also the case with a few routes). In line with Michael's very informative list quite a lot of the "converted" routes were crew-operated Atlanteans and Fleetlines for some years. Returning to the Renowns, my understanding is that they were procured as trolleybus replacement vehicles, and my recollections of them as new was on the 43 Trent Bridge - Bulwell Market, and extensions to the Bulwell estates (75 and 85) made possible by release from the wires. By 1971 the peak time frequency was 6 minutes (though I think it was more like 2½ in the 1950s) so this would absorb about 13 vehicles. As for the 35, am I right in thinking that from day 1 this was not simply a new number for the old 55 (Bilborough - Bulwell, Camberley Road) but the linking end to end of the old 63 and 55 - a route that remains much the same to this day?
Stephen Ford
08/02/13 - 06:35
Stephen,
I agree that Nottingham's Renowns worked the Bulwell services but my recollection is that this did not happen until after the conversion from trolleybus operation had taken place. My memory is that Atlanteans and Fleetlines worked the services on conversion and did so for some time before the Renowns were transferred to Bulwell. You are right about the frequency of services 42/43 in the 1950s. Timetables from this period have these services at every two/three minutes at peak periods with the 44 at every five minutes. The 42/43 required 34 buses (Trent Bridge 18 and Bulwell 16) with the 44 requiring 18 buses (all from Bulwell).
The services serving the new Bulwell estates that were the 'offspring' of the 43 were introduced as follows:
Service 75 - 03/05/70 to Crabtree Road/Willow Hill Close with an extension to Hoewood Road in 09/73.
Service 35 - 25/01/76 to Hoewood Road/Bardney Drive.
Service 85 - 12/09/76 to Hempshill Lane/Armstrong Road.
The conversion of the 55 to OPO,as the 35, in April 1980 did not involve a link up with the Wollaton Vale services 63/83. The April 1980 conversion gave rise to the following services:
35 - Bulwell Bus Station to Stotfield Road;
36 - Norwich Gardens to Burnside Road;
37 - Norwich Gardens to Aspen Gardens;
38 - Norwich Gardens to Bulwell Bus Station.
The through running of the 35/36 to the City via Wollaton Vale and Derby Road started 26/10/80 with the 63/83 being withdrawn and service number 34 used for short workings to Fernwood Crescent. From 08/05/83 services 36/37/38 were withdrawn with most 35 journeys operating between Norwich Gardens and the City. Service number 34 continued in use for Fernwood Crescent shorts.
Michael Elliott
09/02/13 - 07:04
Michael, thanks for the information provided. My Dad, Clive, was an NCT driver and he want OMO when the Gordon Road rota was converted. He then moved to Trent Bridge when it re-opened in the summer of 1973, covering all the workings on 11, 12, 14, 21 and 24 services. Initially Trent Bridge's allocation was the JTV-E Atlanteans 485-499 along with some of the NCME flat front Fleetlines of the 64-94 batch. From November 1973 Trent Bridge then had its allocation of new AN68 Atlanteans 541-574. The first of the batch, 540, initially worked from Sherwood, but was later allocated to Trent Bridge
Andy Johnson
09/02/13 - 12:17
Michael, thanks very much for your comprehensive and informative post, it's another fleet I can chalk off the list although there are still plenty to go and some which I suspect will be impossible to find.
Stephen, you are of course quite correct with your comment about the end of front engined buses not meaning the end of conductors, which is, as you say, what many people have assumed during my researches. Here in Leeds the last half cabs were withdrawn in 1976, but conductors continued on conventional rear engined buses until the summer of 1985.
Dave Towers
23/03/13 - 16:14
May I add a bit to something I saw in someone else's comment re conversions to OMO etc.
I recall that before then, but after the trolley conversions, NCT had a programme of introducing rear-engined, larger buses on to routes previously operated by traditional vehicles and the exercise involved reductions in frequencies, e.g. instead of a 56-seater every 15 mins, there would be 77/78 seater every 20 mins, publicised as maintaining the "same number of seats per hour"
Commonsense business practice of course, but I cannot help recalling Bill Bryson drawing attention to this sort of practice when he lampooned the oft-described "in the interests of customer service" as meaning "in the interests of the company and saving it the bother/expense of ..."
Rob H
21/04/14 - 07:55
In addition to the routes mentioned that were allocated Renowns, the 58 to Radford was, I believe, the first route to receive them.
Michael Browne
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