Newcastle Training Bus

Copyright R. C. Davis

Yet another from the job lot, but this one has the following on the back of it. JTN 243 (243) now L918 - Park Royal AEC RT picture by R. C. Davis. The yellow livery dates the photo as post 1949 but from the registration I would say the vehicle is about 1940. As you can see it's been converted for driver training complete with dual control steering wheel at the front N/S. I believe there were two of these, but are they decapitated D/D's or did they start life as open platform single deckers? To me the roof looks a bit amateurish to be original.

Ronnie Hoye

07/06/12 - 17:21

As a mere southerner - from Sheffield - who knows nothing about Newcastle, I knows me AECs! Whoever wrote the caption didn't. The cab alone tells me it's not an RT, as does the purported date of 1940. The only early provincial RT was the Glasgow bus - originally destined for show at the Motor Show in 1939 (which was cancelled). All the others were Chiswick built RTs for LT. The provincial RTs came on stream in 1946 because Park Royal and Weymann (and the rest) had not set up the jigs for the post war standard RT body.

David Oldfield

09/06/12 - 07:59

As David has pointed out, this bus emphatically has no RT ancestry. The radiator, front wings and louvered bonnet suggest that it is probably an immediate pre WW2 or early wartime Regent O661/19. Unfortunately, I do not have a Newcastle fleet list to discover more information about this particular vehicle.

Roger Cox

09/06/12 - 12:06

I have to wonder if the roof of a double decker has merely been lowered to the floor of the top deck? I wonder if anyone has a pic of an original? I am fascinated by the second example of the new (to me) idea of dual control steering. The possibilities are fascinating! How did it work? I was always intrigued by those half-cab training buses- Sheffield I think- where the instructor just seemed to be leaning over the trainee from behind: would he throw himself on to the controls in an emergency, grab the handbrake, or had he some mysterious pedals back in the saloon? Anyone?

Joe

09/06/12 - 17:45

I think in the old days there would be a prayer mat and an effigy of St Christopher - and little else. I don't think there was even a supplementary handbrake when I trained and then took my test.
I suppose that is why Stagecoach use modern B10Ms and private schools use modern Darts as trainers - to pacify the Health and Safety brigade.

David Oldfield

10/06/12 - 08:19

David Hoare's long preserved Wigan Tiger TS4/Santus had been a training bus in its later operational life and was still fitted with dual controls - including a second steering wheel - the last time I saw it, though that was back in the 70's.
Dual controls in a PSV Training Bus were however quite a rarity, and during the halfcab era, though a few had the offside part of the front bulkhead cut away to allow the instructor access in an emergency, most involved the instructor sitting the other side of the bulkhead and shouting instructions through the window (from which the glass had been removed....obviously !).
The skill of being a PSV Instructor (never fully appreciated by either their management or other drivers) was of course to strive to ensure that no emergency situation arose in the first place !
I was a PSV Instructor for 18 years (as you may gather !) including a period using PD2/37's, and reckon that if I had thought too long about the possible dangerous situation I was in most of the time, I would have never been able to do the job. There were a few heart-stopping moments over the years, but fortunately nothing serious ever happened.

John Stringer

10/06/12 - 08:20

Certainly the several London Transport training vehicles I saw, when I was young, had no more modification than the glass being removed between the saloon and driver's cab. There were usually two folk behind the driver, one being an Inspector, no doubt the trainer. I would imagine that basic training would usually take away from public roads.

Chris Hebbron

10/06/12 - 08:21

I don't know when the legislation altered, but at the time this vehicle was being used as a driver trainer you could start as a complete novice 'under supervision of course' with only a provisional licence and then take a car and PSV test in one go, where as now you must already have a full UK car licence and you're going for an additional category, so in theory the instructors job is a lot less difficult, but speaking as a retired R.T.I.T.B. LGV instructor/assessor, I think their must be a lot of drivers out there who got their licence with three box tops and a 25p postal order from Kellogs, and I was training 'qualified' drivers

Ronnie Hoye

10/06/12 - 08:21

I think Joe hit the nail on the head about the roof being that of a double decker merely being lowered. I, too, was wondering about that second steering wheel, the linkages to the front axle must have been complicated, to say the least!

Chris Barker

10/06/12 - 09:41

I agree it's not an RT - the bonnet line is far too high. This is a standard Regent O661, one of three (JTN 242-4) with Park Royal bodies purchased by Newcastle in 1942.
From the date, I'd guess these were utility bodies on unfrozen chassis. During the War, vehicles were allocated to operators by the Ministry of War Transport on the basis of perceived need by the Ministry, who took little account of compatibility with an operator's existing fleet. I am no expert on Newcastle - a far away place of which I know almost nothing - but as far as I can tell they don't appear to have been regular AEC users so they probably weren't too happy at having three Regents allocated to them.
The top deck has clearly been removed for its role as a trainer, which seems a bit extreme until you remember the poor quality of most utility bodies as a result of using unseasoned timber. Getting rid of half of it before it fell apart was probably quite a good idea.

Michael Wadman

10/06/12 - 15:04

I think that the single opening window each side is the defining clue for an austerity body. However, the roof does not appear to be so severe, with a lobster back etc. Maybe it was taken from another vehicle, or 'domed' at the time of conversion, although the roof is not clearly enough defined to be certain. Interestingly, the roof seems less high at the back than the rear: maybe an optical illusion.

Mr Anon

10/06/12 - 17:57

Unfortunately Michael, your supposition is incorrect. Pre-war, Newcastle were definitely AEC users - as you will find if you read The Blue Triangle. Alan Townsin makes several references to his Newcastle childhood - two of them illustrated by a MCCW Petrol Regent I and a post-war Weymann Diesel Regent II.

David Oldfield

11/06/12 - 13:14

Well, I did say that I don't know very much about Newcastle
But I've looked in the AEC Regent chassis list, and as as far as I can tell they bought seventeen Regents between 1930-2, but then none at all until these three in 1942, so they don't appear to have been major AEC users before the War.
As far as the roof is concerned, it could be the original: the front and rear domes match those of Park Royal bodies of the time. Because the bodies sloped quite a bit at the front, the roof has had to be mounted further forward than normal in order to fit the lower deck, which is why the ribs don't line up with the window pillars as they should; and the rear section has accordingly had to be extended which is why it looks a bit strange.

Michael Wadman

02/07/12 - 07:27

When I was in the Southend Corporation Driving school in 1973 the two buses used were 315/6 [PHJ 954/5] Leyland PD3/Massey L53R and these had the back of the cab cut away in the usual driving school way. The two buses did a normal piece of service work in the morning rush hour before taking up their training work. There was a metal frame that was supposed to be fitted over the aperture but this never seemed to be used and the normal procedure for the driver was just to pull the blind down. One morning a driver was exasperated by the action of some errant car driver and swore loudly forgetting that he had some 20 gob smacked passengers behind him. As they got off he tried to hide his face as they passed the cab.

Philip Carlton

27/07/12 - 16:20

To disagree with everyone else, this looks to me like a cut down double decker Craven body.

Jim Hepburn

Comments regarding the above are more than welcome please get in touch via the 'Contact Page' or by email at obp-admin@nwframpton.com

Quick links to the - Best Bits - Comments - Contact - Home